A fallback candidate for CF...
by ryan c on Oct 27, 2010 10:46 AM EDT
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Many of the Braves hardcore followers were very upset when Gregor Blanco was dealt, especially considering he was the only CF candidate worthy of putting on the field at that time. Gregor was always a no-power, high OBP, average to above-average defensive CF. Gregor, although above average in speed, was never a great base stealer. He either stole 20-40 bases getting caught at a 30-50% rate, or stole very few bases and got caught at a 10-20% rate. Needless to say, trading Gregor Blanco might have been a bad move for the success of the 2010 season. Here are Blanco's career Minor League stats:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=blanco001gre
Hopefully, the Braves are in financial position to upgrade both CF and LF this offseason and hopefully McLouth can become a force like he had been in his previous 3 seasons. But if he can't rebound and if the Braves only have the finances to upgrade one outfield position, there is a fallback candidate in the organization that has put up better career Minor Leage numbers than Gregor Blanco.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=young-001mat
Many people have harped on Gregor Blanco and his on-base skills, but year after year, Matt Young gets overlooked. I honestly don't get it. Here are their career breakdowns:
Career OBP- Matt: .390 Blanco: .368
Career OPS- Matt: .775 Blanco: .734
Career SB%- Matt: 70% Blanco: 69%
This past season, Matt stole 39 bases, being caught only 7 times to go along with a .786 ops. His Winter League stats are ridiculous thus far:
20/45 2hr 7rbi .444avg .500 obp 1.100 ops
Matt Young is trying to get the Braves attention. His message is clear: He wants to be a Major Leaguer! Obviously, he doesn't deserve to be the starting CFer in 2011, but he most definitely deserves a bench spot and a chance to show what he can do if all the other candidates fall on their faces (like 2010).
This FanPost does not express the views or opinions of Talking Chop.
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Moderated in 5...4...3...2...
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
read before you judge...
it’s not rosterbation, jackwagon.
Smelky is not a good player. Noone can convince me otherwise.
What is rosterbation?
I always assumed that it was discussing who we should obtain through free agency, trades, or otherwise, to put on our roster for the current year or, during the offseason, for next year. Just because you are talking about somebody in our system, advocating for him to be on the roster is, well, rosterbation.
I guess this makes me a jackwagon, too, eh? (Does my use of “eh” make me an honorary Canadian jackwagon?)
on a technicality...
i guess it could be rosterbation, but you (along w/ everyone else on this blog) know that the rosterbation thread is for trade scenarios that will likely not happen. i was making a comparison to blanco and how he was a fallback candidate for the cf position last year, to matt young. he’s outplayed blanco in every major category, yet he’s been given no shot.
showing the strengths of a certain player(and wondering why he hasnt been given a shot) and comparing that player to a former player (who has been given a shot) is very different.
i guess we’ll see who the moderator agree with…you could be right…or wrong. but, for the record, my purpose wasnt rosterbation, yet merely comparison.
Smelky is not a good player. Noone can convince me otherwise.
I don’t speak for every moderator, but personally I thought this was fine. You’re comparing one player in the organization to another player who had a job that you’re proposing the new guy could get, using stats to show how they’re similar. If it’s rosterbation then your roster fantasies are quite mild. Kind of like fantasizing about going to Home Depot on a Saturday.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
Congratulations...
you are the first person to suggest we do more with Matt Young than leave him in AAA. Oh wait, strike that. You’re not the first, but closer to the 297,342nd.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
New idea
What about Werth?
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
just looked him up…seems like a decent chance we sign him…we could proabably get him for 3 years and 30 M…then we would still have enough left over after dumping Lowe, KK and McLouth for something. to get Crawford…
wouldn’t that be great.?
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
thanks for the congratulations...
as always, i look forward to your immediate rebuttal to any and all things i say.
Smelky is not a good player. Noone can convince me otherwise.
It's a good point, and I agree with you...
Young should get a good look next spring to hopefully fill a role on the bench, and perhaps work his way into the starting CF job. But as Yakker kind of alludes, that idea has been thrown out there more than “we should sign Werth”.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I did read it, and judged it to be rosterbation. To each their own, I guess.
Don't kiss an ass if it's in the process of shitting on you.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
I’m no genius, but I just can’t get a grip on why Matt Young doesn’t get a chance. I watched 6 or 7 Gwinnett games this season, Young was a blast to watch. I’m not expecting the Braves to get a big HR bat this off season, I’m not sure there are many “big HR bats” out there any more. McCann, Heyward, Freeman, possibly Gonzo, Prado and Chipper should be good for 15+ each. At the Ted, I can live with that. Heyward and Freeman might develop into 30+ guys in a year or two.
With McLouth’s contract dragging us down, Matt Young seems like a good stop gap until Wren builds the log jam of pitchers that simply must be dealt with. How long can Wren hold onto 13 potential SP’ers? Hanson, Hudson, Lowe, Jurrjens, Minor, Beachy, Teheran, DelGado, Medlen, Hoover, Redmond, Ortegano and Diamond. Start the year with Heyward, McLouth, Young, either Diaz or a cheap reclamation OFer like Andruw or God forbid Frenchy(ducks from flying rocks) then trade a couple of those pitchers in July for a young controlled OFer to replace McLouth long term
I sincerly apologize for mentioning Frenchy, I read that he might have to go for a Minor League contract this off season and felt sorry for him..
Write your own recap!.....mvhsbball
I sincerly apologize for mentioning Frenchy
That doesn’t make it okay.
Morgan: Do you think I could come into the clubhouse after the game and display my ass for both those veterans and the younger guys?
Baker: Well, Joe, you are on the payroll of the team, and you're a legend, so I suppose — holy shit!
[Joe has appeared next to Dusty, in the dugout, completely naked]
Morgan: Hey.
by TradeAndruw on Oct 27, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
I can’t stand his idiotic statements, or watching him swing at bad pitches, or that stupid smile. But he would have been better than McLouth, Ankiel or Cabrera this season. I can almost hear Wren introducing him back to Atlanta, after signing him for $1.5M. I don’t want Frenchy back, but I won’t be surprised if he is. The Braves will not sign an expensive OFer, Wren seems to want to keep his pitchers for a while, so that leaves signing a non-tendered player. I honestly think they might consider Frenchy as having more upside than Andruw or some other retread. Scarey, but seems possible to me.
Write your own recap!.....mvhsbball
We need to target a solid 23 – 25 RH OF in AAA who has some legit upside, but is more or less blocked, and go get him.
That might be the best route to take with a few of our pitchers in the minors. Trade 2, maybe 3 pitchers for 2 or 3 equally talented minor league position players, kind of balance out our farm a little.
Write your own recap!.....mvhsbball
That would be nice...
…but those trades are hard to pull off; teams tend to like their own prospects more. There have been a couple prospect for prospect trades recently, but those trades both (A) were ancillary to a trade in which one team received prospects for an established veteran and (B) involved the prospect hot potato, Brett Wallace.
Unless you have experience working as an assistant to a ML GM, what makes you think “those trades are hard to pull off”? Seems to me that you’re very likely just wrong.
Team A (the Braves) have a surplus of MiL pitching and Team B (like many teams) legitimately needs pitching help. Team A calls and says, very specifically: We want Player X off your AA or AAA team – who happens to be more or less blocked. You will receive a very fair return because we’re prepared to deal right now and give you ML ready pitching help.
Do you seriously think Team B hangs up???
Just a guess
but I would say its difficult because the team that wants the OF won’t offer much because the player is unproven and has one or more question marks and the team with the OF needs back sufficient value. Fans like us usually want to trade for people by offering organizational filler or guys without a lot of chance of playing in the majors.
The reason I think those trades are hard to pull off is...
they don’t happen often. It’s fairly simple logic. Yeah, maybe some blocked hitter for a lesser pitcher in the minors, but the really good prospects don’t stay blocked for long—-they are either moved positionally, the way is cleared for them by trading the blocking hitter at the MLB level, or the prospect is traded for major league players.
good trades – those that actually help both teams – don’t happen often.
and that’s why I think this type of trade could legitimately work. again, many teams legitimately want and need pitching help and we have it to offer in spades. so we target a player that we like and go make a deal for him.
its seems very much more feasible than going and signing a big dollar FA or somehow freeing up $10 or 20 M by dumping bad contracts (KK, Lowe, McLouth, etc.).
On the second part I agree with you.
We aren’t going to sign a big dollar free agent or dump much of the bad contracts (although I think we’ll trade KK, possibly back to Japan, and get out of $3-$4 million of his deal). This offseason is going to be a tough one for Wren; we have obvious needs (OF, OF, OF, OF, OF, need I go on?) but no obvious way of obtaining what we need within our budget.
Marlon Byrd or Kosuke Fukudome
A Cubs fan here, I’m curious if you think the Braves would have an interest in either Byrd or Fukudome. Byrd is the superior defender in CF, Fukudome is a liability really, but he is a plus RF. Byrd is an aggressive hitter, whose bat is a plus in CF, and is signed for 2 more years at a reasonable contract. Fukudome is a strong obp player, with middling power. His contract is a steep 14.5 for 2011, so he could be had for salary relief alone, as it is expected he will be displaced as the starting Cubs RF next season. The Cubs would likely want a strong return on Byrd as he is one of our rare non-albatross FA contracts.
by neifiisgreat on Oct 28, 2010 11:42 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Byrd is probably not a match...
in that lose him, and you’d need a CF, which means a demand that wouldn’t be worth it here.
Fukudome could work, but he’d require taking back a bad contract such as Lowe, Kawakami, or McLouth, if not 2 of them.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 28, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
They still have three OFs without Byrd...
Colvin and Fukudome have both played CF in the past (Fukudome most of 2009, Colvin sparingly in both 2009 and 2010). Add in Soriano, and they still have a full outfield.
To be honest, I think a bad contract swap is unlikely, but slightly possible. They lack any real need for KK, and Lowe’s value is probably not as great as the ceiling of prospects they’d receive in a trade for Byrd. McLouth definitely isn’t needed there.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
I was mentioning KK and Lowe...
in exchange for Fukudome. He could play LF as a decent bat, but he’s not right handed.
I’d think they could use one or the other, considering their rotation is no sure thing with Gorzelanny, Silva, and Zambrano manning 3 of the spots. Byrd is due $12m between 2011 and 2012, so maybe KK could work, if we send a prospect or two with him. But then, I still don’t see them wanting to move Byrd.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
selling high on byrd
Is what I would like the Cubs to do. I doubt Jim Hendry goes for it though. The Cubs have Colvin capable of CF, and Brett Jackson their top prospect knocking at the door.
by neifiisgreat on Oct 28, 2010 2:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
McLouth
I think the cubs would definitely take mclouth back if it provided them salary relief or prospects. I think a trade of byrd and fukudome for mclouth and randall delgado/mike minor would work for the cubs.
by neifiisgreat on Oct 29, 2010 9:15 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
you'd have to throw in cash...
to cover the extra salaries, or not take a prospect too. That trade doesn’t sound good to me, as neither Byrd or Fukudome is worth the upside of a Minor or Delgado.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I think you’re absolutely right. Teams value their own prospects more than other teams’ prospects, those kind of trades are hard to pull off, and the proof that they’re hard to pull of is that they hardly ever happen. I think every aspect of yur argument is spot on with this one.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
it makes sense for them to value thier own players more…they re more familiar with their strengths and weaknesses…you can scout a player all you want but unless you spend every dya with him its difficult to realize the breadth of his abilities.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
personally, although I appreciate the Front Office bias in favor of trading for veteran ML players, I think this is a fantastic option.
For example, Redmond is undoubtedly ML ready right now and could easily step into the rotations of at least 10 or 12 teams coming out of ST 2011.
Package him with some combo of Diamond, EFO, Dunn, Merck, Gearrin, Cordier and/or Hoover for a young stud, RH AA or AAA batsman – either a LF, CF or 3B – who has some very serious upside but is more or less blocked in his organization, and give that new kid a real shot at making the team and actually contributing in the lineup, or at least have him available in Gwinnett for a mid-season call-up if / when we have more suckage, injuries, etc.
Nearly every year, the majority of ML teams have some unheralded rookie arrive on the scene and make huge and totally surprising contributions. Last year, for us, it was Venters. In ’07, it was Moylan.
This is unrealistic.
Todd Redmond is as ready as he will ever be. The problem is that he just isn’t good enough to be a major league starter, he is too hittable. If he could step into the rotations of 10-12 major league teams now, Sickels probably would not have left him completely out of his 24 top Braves prospects list and the extra list of 16 other prospects. He projects as a weak 5th starter, swing man, or long reliever at best.
Diamond has a little more stuff, but is a fringe prospect who, best case, projects as a back of the rotation starter. Cordier is about the same. EOF is a loogy. Dunn may be a bit more than a loogy, but has control issues. Merck and Gearrin project as middle relievers. Hoover is the best of the lot you mention; he has upside to be a middle of the rotation innings eater, but he is still a ways away.
No combination of those players is going to get a stud hitting prospect from any organization that is run by relatively competent individuals. For example, let’s take the current classic example of a blocked stud prospect: Yonder Alonso. He’s a first baseman in the Reds system, blocked by Joey Votto who isn’t going anywhere for a long time. The Reds would never trade him for a group of guys who have no particular projectable upside. They will either: try to teach him a new position (he played some LF this year in the minors) or trade him to a non-contender to major league help.
Basically, I don’t see why anybody would give a talented prospect with upside in return for a player or players without much discernible upside. I am sure if teams would do that, we would jump all over it. A Redmond, at most, would fetch a similar hitter—-a guy who could be a scrub major leaguer but lacks upside—-someone like Brandon Hicks. I am not sure what good that would do us, however.
To better explain my position, lets look at the reverse. We have a bunch of pitching in the minors. We are short on hitting. Would we trade a pitcher with upside like Beachy, Carlos Perez, or even Hoover for a collection of Brandon Hicks’? Of course not. Other teams won’t either.
"Merck"...
I’m assuming is Marek.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 28, 2010 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
lol, yeah that is the one I meant
Don’t know why I just copied the typo.
How did Alonso do in LF?....
maybe him for say Randall Delgado. Or a similar, ready/near ready, slugging bat that’s RH and could play in LF or CF.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 28, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Stay far away from Alonzo. He has absolutely no defensive value, no matter where you put him, and his bat really isn’t all that impressive. He’s fat and not a fan of working hard, so I’m betting he doesn’t have much success.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
Fair enough...
but there may be someone besides him that fit that mold. Or perhaps they could pry away one of Milwaukee’s batch of bats like McGehee, Lawrie, Cain, Weeks, or Gamel.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 28, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Overpaying....
by definition means you paid too much, so no, I would not want to “overpay”.
And I doubt that would be the price tag for some of those mentioned off the Brewers. Maybe JJ for McGehee or Weeks, Delgado for Cain or Lawrie, something like that. Gamel a bit less like Beachy or a combination of lesser arms.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 28, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
i dotn think Lawrie is blocked… mostly bc he isnt a good defender anywhere…so the Brewers can just have him play any position badly and hope his offense outweighs it…kinda like they do with Braun, and Hart, and Weeks, and Fielder and McGehee…wow that team is atrocious defensively.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Yeah, I’ve always been amazed at how they put absolutely no value on defense. Maybe that’s why they hardly develop any pitching.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
well they have two great defenders in Gomez and Escobar…and apparently Cain is at worst an average CF….so maybe they are learning…but ya their pitching woes are directly relating to the Brewers inability to make outs defensively.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
i dont know what that means…but Cain was above avg in a drastically inadequate sample this year…and scouting reports have him as the good CF…so i don’t know whether to argue with you or not bc your sentence(?) confuses me.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
sample size in regard to UZR and DRS….sorry I should have made that clear…my bad.
Well he was regarded as the best defensive OF in the Brewers system, and while they are not a system overflowing with defensive wizards that still has to be worth something…that is from Baseball America.
And then there is this… http://www.minorleagueball.com/2010/10/9/1740612/rookie-review-lorenzo-cain
the long and short is that Sickels thinks he is “an excellent defensive outfielder”
I could continue to look but i think i’ve proven my point.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
No
I should have made myself clear. I knew you were talking UZR. Its a conversation killer.
And Sickels saying he’s an excellent defensive outfielder doesn’t support your claim that he is merely good.
i said at worst he is average…implying i think he is much better than that…or at least slightly better depending on what i think his upside is defensively…
you don’t like UZR thats fine…but when it fits with what everything else is saying its at worst illustrative of agreement across the board.
I think we both agree he is a very good OF possibly plus plus…i was just hedgin my statement bc i dont like to be overly optimistic based on scouting reports and small samples…gun to my head though…he is a veyr good CF. does that comport with your ideas ?
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
Kind of my point...
they have Braun in LF, Hart in RF, Weeks at 2B, and McGehee at 3B. He’s blocked because there are similar players at every position he could conceivably be stashed at. You could argue Weeks to CF opening a spot, but then what do you do with Cain? I’d think we can pry one of them loose, if we wanted.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Fielder is a free agent after next season.
They’ll stash somebody at first then.
Like Gamel or Braun...
which doesn’t open up much room since if it’s Braun, then Gamel could take LF, or Gamel takes 1st and Braun stays in LF.
Point is, they are kind of the reverse from us balance wise. All slugging, no D, no pitching. We’ve got pitching to spare, but could use some slugging. What’s excess to us is needed by them, and what’s excess to them is needed by us, so we should be able to find a fit for a deal, conceivably.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Weeks is gettin better he was about avg the last two years you are right, accoring to UZR
but DRS…thinks differently basically saying he is really horrible…if you average them out he is below avg.
but he can really hit…so its ok…
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
are you drunk or just rambling….
Ricky Weeks is an elite offensive 2B…and his defense is suspect…this isnt a radical opinion….this is pretty much standard agreement across the baseball world.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
No
I’m wondering why you’re going on about UZR and DRS. To top it off you think that averaging them has meaning.
What do you think matters?
Out of curiosity. I know there are issues with all defensive metrics, but you don’t seem to appreciate scouting reports (Sickels) or advanced metrics. Or maybe I am reading your posts wrong. What do you think shows good defense?
Sickels basically said what I said and contradicted what was said that I also questioned.
The idea that the attempts at new products are “advanced” metrics is presumptious. Ideally people would at least recognize some of the bigger flaws, but instead you just hear that player X is bad because his UZR is bad and questioning the statement causes all sorts of consternation. I know its fun to pull up a single webpage and make all sorts of bold, sweeping conclusions, but it isn’t necessarily correct.
Instead of criticizing me, would you mind explaining why you think Weeks is a good defender?
Im trying to be an ass..just curious…i think Weeks has improved but I don’t think he is very good even after the improvement…
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
I think Weeks is a good, not great defender. My response wasn’t to an evaluation of Weeks but the devotion to UZR and its kin, DRS.
i agree they arent great stats…but its all we have and you mine as well use what you have…and then just try to put those stats into context (that being their are far from perfect stats and have serious issues, but are still enlightening to some point).
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
And really?...
why mention JJ, Kimbrel, and Minor, when the names I mention fit exactly what you described above giving a Redmond, EOF, “Merck”, Cordier, etc for.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 28, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
a major pharmaceutical company would certainly be over-paying.
seriously, you ask why? because, obviously, we shouldn’t give up a combo of JJ, Kimbrel, and Minor for any of those guys.
Delgado’s a top 5 prospect. What plausible trade for a potentially available RH LF or CF off of ML roster do you think could be made for Delgado, either alone or bundled with another, lesser MiL player?
And Cain doesn’t fit what I was describing because he lacks power and Gamel doesn’t fit because he’s a lefty hitter.
Lawrie is a 20 yr old 1st rounder who raked at AA and is likely unavailable, I would think.
Do you think the Brewers would take Delgado for Lawrie?
So you float an idea...
and then dump on it in the same thread? Bravo sir, bravo.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
You mention going after a blocked hitter...
those are among the few actually out there, so the reasonable return for those caliber players is something you say we shouldn’t do?
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
What?!
“… the few actually out there”
No. 1: I was very clearly talking about trading minor league pitchers for blocked minor league hitters. No. 2: McGehee and Weeks are established ML players. No.3: I don’t know who is “out there”, doubt that you do either, and if McGehee is in fact available, although he might be a great pickup, he’s not exactly what I was talking about and would likely in any event be very expensive to obtain.
Assuming the Brewers would want ML pitching in return, I simply suggested that IMO giving up JJ or Kimbrel and Minor for McGehee might be too much.
Yes, few actually out there...
there are very few MLB caliber sluggers “blocked” that can’t be fixed by other measures, as cavebird has mentioned multiple times.
if you want a legit MLB caliber slugger, and not some AAAA castoff, you have to give up something of value for them or develop them internally. But you want a MLB caliber slugger without developing them, or paying the price needed to acquire them. Have your cake and eat it too.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
what a surprise! you’ve completely changed the subject after giving me a ration of shit for allegedly dumping on the idea that I had raised, which was obviously false.
OK, if you say so buddy...
you brought up going after “blocked” hitters. But don’t know of any that actually exist, don’t acknowledge why so few do exist since teams can move them to another position, package them for a proven MLB player, or package the blocking player for prospects, and then say the price to acquire such a “blocked” hitter would be prohibitive and shouldn’t be paid. We should go get a guy, but not pay what it takes to get that guy? Great idea you have here.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
for you to call me a moron when your reading comprehension is so very poor is rich.
but thanks for the fun and, as usual, being an insufferable ass.
If my reading comprehension is poor...
it’s because you failed to clearly explain your idea. Or, as it seems from your elaborations, was a crap idea in the first place.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
And yeah, I got your ideas fine...
Package him with some combo of Diamond, EFO, Dunn, Merck, Gearrin, Cordier and/or Hoover for a young stud, RH AA or AAA batsman – either a LF, CF or 3B – who has some very serious upside but is more or less blocked in his organization, and give that new kid a real shot at making the team and actually contributing in the lineup, or at least have him available in Gwinnett for a mid-season call-up if / when we have more suckage, injuries, etc.
Because so many teams have young, stud RH bats in AA or AAA they are desperate to dump for minor league scraps.
We need to target a solid 23 – 25 RH OF in AAA who has some legit upside, but is more or less blocked, and go get him.
But you don’t know of any that actually fit that description, (here’s a clue, there’s very few if any), and when some who do fit that description, or the players blocking them, are mentioned, the type of package it’d take to acquire them, you are now saying we shouldn’t pay.
I think I comprehend what you are writing just fine thank you. Perhaps you are struggling to comprehend the massive holes in your idea.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I think the big problem here is that you suggested the Braves should target a certain kind of player for a certain kind of trade, but you didn’t give any examples of who fits that mold. If you’re making this suggestion, you really should have come up with some names for us to get an idea of what you’re talking about. As it is, all we had to go on was the idea, which is flimsy without anything tangible to examine.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
And when someone gave examples of players...
who fit that mold, he thinks the cost to acquire them shouldn’t be paid. So let’s find a diamond in the rough cast off from someone’s AAA, like Garrett Jones. Because guys like that are plentiful and easily identified.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
And if you’re talking about guys like Garrett Jones then really they do that every year when they sign guys like Mitch Jones and Brent Clevlen.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
Wladimir Balentien might be in the category, for one example.
Now, fo course, I expect 25 quick reasons why that is a stupid suggestion.
The thing is, he doesn’t fit what you were talking about. He’s a 26 year old who could have been had as a Minor League free agent (and I think might still be available again as a Minor League free agent), not a prospect with upside who’s blocked. If Balentein is the kind of guy you’re talking about then there are an abundance of mid to late 20s AAAA players that could be signed as Minor League free agents or traded for for cash or spare parts.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
cb, I’m certain that is true. but my point was different – that there might be additonal and possibly better MiL options who are not in the FA category. and I don’t really care that Balentein may not an apt example or that it would take take more time than I can easily devote to research to come up with a possibly viable short list of candidates.
and I got your and Mr. S’s points – really good and available candidates in this category are not necessarily plentiful and might not make much impact in any event – that are also certainly true.
on the other hand, with our limited amount of money to spend and what I think is the improbability of Wren trading away any of our young ML pitchers (JJ, Minor or Kimbrel), the chances of landing a big slugger for the middle of the lineup are also not at all good. this is the only reason I brought up the issue in the first place.
I’ve gotten why you’ve brought it up, and what your reasoning for bringing it up was, it just seems like you’re getting upset that people are poking holes in your idea when it wasn’t fleshed out in the first place.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
We should have traded the major pharmeceutical company...
…while we had the change. Merck just posted disappointing third quarter results. If we traded them now, we’d be selling low.
Well, I included Hoover in my list, as well as Dunn and/or EFO (who have proven they can contribute in the MLs), and I’m not so impressed with top prospect lists that are weighted to younger, toolsy players rather than mid-20 yr old guys who have performed well at the levels at which they’ve given given the opportunity to perform. And I guess you didn’t happen to notice Redmond’s performance this fall in international play?
But moreover, and more to the point, I would advocate moving pretty much any player or combo of players in the Braves’ MiL operation outside of our consensus top 5 or 6 list to get a quality RH MiL bat who could have a real shot at making the team and contributing to our weak lineup, or at least have him available in Gwinnett for a mid-season call-up. I’m by no means suggesting we overvalue our guys, but to the contary think we should overpay to bring a targeted player like this on board to possibly fill an obvious need.
Okay, that's a bit different.
We wouldn’t be talking “studs” here as you seemed to state earlier. If you are talking about Matt Young types with maybe power instead of speed, Redmond could fetch one of those guys. (I’d want more for Hoover.) Those guys, however, don’t help that much that often—-look at Mitch Jones last year. But hey, if we are bare at a position then something like that could happen. Of course, we can probably sign guys like that as minor league free agents. (and, honestly, does anyone know whether Young is a minor league free agent? At his age, he must be getting close.)
Sure there are – undoubtedly dozens, just guessing 40 or 60 total, of very possibles.
As you know, the Atlanta Braves have scouting departments, minor league coaching staffs, and other player development personnel.
I personally, however, am just another stupid fan and am not employed on either a full or part-time basis to engage in detailed evaluating of young baseball players throughout the minors.
Here is a complete listing of all minor league affilaites. Excluding, of course, the Gwinnett and Mississippi Braves, there are 58 other AAA and AA teams. If you wanted to include A Advanced teams (probably not a bad idea), it would be 87 teams’ rosters to consider for players that could potentially compete for spots on the Braves’ roster in either 2011 or 2012.
You do realize that not every one of those teams will have...
either a prospect of the caliber you describe, and even less likely be blocked at the major league level. That reduces your number from 40 or 60, to maybe a dozen, at most.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 28, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
And if they are good prospects...
…the team will find a way to get them up (via trading the blocking player or switching positions) or trade him to a team where he isn’t block for a major league return. If the team is not a contender and wouldn’t want the major league return, they would find a way to get the guy unblocked themselves.
The best a Redmond would get, I imagine, in an upside hitting prospect would be a Cody Johnson type—-one with upside but serious flaws which make the potential highly questionable. Why would a team give up a player with upside for a player without upside? If Redmond could make the teams major league rotation, the team will not be a contender, and they would want to acquire players with upside, not trade them.
Maybe or maybe not. I’m guessing the minimum number of real candidates might be at least 20 or 25.
Regardless, my entire point to begin with is the Braves’ braintrust should go through the exercise and surgically target the 1, 2 or 3 top options meeting the criteria and try to bring them on board by overpaying from our abundance of pitching.
It is an immensely more feasible and more practical option than almost any rosterbation idea I’ve read here in weeks, plus its relatively low risk (we could lose a future all-star) and certainly low cost.
It couldn't hurt...
…but the odds of providing significant help are relatively small as well. Sometimes you find a player like Garrett Jones like the Pirates did, who can perform reasonably well (and even great for a short period) but are never going to be stars. Still, I would have loved to be able to stick a Garrett Jones type in left field in 2010.
I was defining "stud" differently than you were...
…in your original post. It can’t hurt to mine the league for the Garrett Jones’ of the world, but we probably should get a few because the odds of any individual one of them panning out is relatively small. And those types would be fair value for Redmond.
But then...
why give up Redmond, etc, when you can get those guys WITHOUT losing anyone as there’s half a dozen or more among minor league free agents.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I was advocating the same type of approach last off-season, to include but not be limited to signing MiL FAs, and actually specifically mentioned Mitch Jones, after which the Braves did exactly that, bringing in both Jones and Brent Clevlen, and then Wilkin Ramirez later.
The reason to target MiLers who are not FAs is, however, quite obviously, to increase the pool of candidates that the braintrust believed could actually make contributions at the ML level.
And how did those 3 turn out?
if you want someone who can make an impact, perhaps the aim needs to be higher, and the price paid a little larger.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
meanwhile, back in reality:
Jones nearly made the opening day roster and would probably have outproduced anyone occupying LF for us last season, but was not given the opportunity; and as is the topic of this fanpost, Young would probably have outproduced anyone occupying LF for us last season.
And all frenzied rosterbation aside, FW is probably constrained by his budget and his disinclination to trade away ML pitching from any major addition to improve our OF
In reality...
we got little to no contribution at the major league level from Clevlen, Jones, or Ramirez. But keep with your “probably” this and “probably” that, and say I’m the one not being realistic.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
The bigger reality is our ML OF production was horrible, particularly offensively, but the defense was pretty lousy too.
And yes indeed it would be just great to land a bigtime slugger. But we have a budget problem that I guess you haven’t heard about; and if you think the real GM is going to deal away JJ or Minor for McGehee or Weeks, I think its not only unrealistic, but also dumb.
Those are trades you're proposing, not me...
and JJ for Weeks actually is reasonable considering he’s put up an ops of.857 and .830 the last two years. McGehee has an ops above .800 in both of his full seasons, so a swap of him straight up for Minor would probably be taken by Wren.
And yes, let’s look at that bigger reality about our OF production. It was so horrible and lousy that we left the guys you are describing to waste in AAA during that season. If Mitch Jones, Brent Clevlen, or Wilikin Ramirez were any better than those “horrible”, “lousy” players we put on the field, don’t you think they’d have been there instead of with Gwinnett?
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I was referring to production, but since you brought it up dumping Melky was a step in the right direction.
ultimately, you may be correct – trading away JJ or Minor or some other major piece of our pitching wealth for an established ML bat may the best or only viable option to improve this glaring weakness of our team either for next yr or 2012.
however, the team should carefully look at every possible option and I expect they will.
We give up Redmond because...
…he too will soon become a minor league free agent. ;)
I love Matt Young, but I will point out that a 70% success rate at stealing bases isn’t great since it’s been shown over and over again that anything below about 80 is actually a detriment.
Now why he doesn’t get a chance to help out on the bench, I don’t know. Little guys get overlooked, and Matt’s one of the littlest.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
I don't think he meant the SB% to mean he is going to steal a lot.
Gregor never stole that much but as a career comparison it just shows that in all those categories that Young and Blanco are very similar.
"Give him the heater Ricky."
i wasnt implying that his sb% was good...
however, he is improving…he was up to 85% this last year.
Smelky is not a good player. Noone can convince me otherwise.
Well that good to know. Didn’t realize he’d gotten that successful. Even more impressiv ewhen you consider he was in AAA for the first time.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
???
It’s obvious that our organizational philosophy does not include guys like Gregor Blanco, so I don’t see why comparing him to someone would be considered a compliment. Basically, it means that he’s (at best) trade bait. I also doubt that Young would be considered for active duty. You’d think he would have gotten his cup of coffee last year if so considering our injury issues in the INF and effectiveness issues in CF/LF.
Look, I like guys like Matt Young and kind of wish we always had a spot for guys like this. Unfortunately, this is just not the reality that is the Atlanta Braves. Our management prefers tools that are playable as opposed to someone with tools that play up. Like it or hate it, it is what it is…
not necessarily true, I don’t think. Blanco came out of SP as the starting CF in ’08, but after a pretty decent early season run, promptly played himself out of a job by essentially not hitting at all. he then had a terrible ’09 season in AAA. after all that, his performance in limited play last season was viewed as fluky and we traded high for vets needed for a stretch run.
Blanco was also 24
and had a .360+ OBP that year. I find it hard to believe that we sat on him because he didn’t make a good 1st impression with what he does. Instead, it’s MUCH more likely that we took a look and decided he didn’t do enough (0 power, hit tool is very average, what he has is just good to very good patience) to have a place on the team going forward. Young is very similar in that respect. He’s shown a little better hit tool, but he’s older as well. They don’t seem different enough to say that if you couldn’t find room for 1 that you would for the other – especially when the other is less of a prospect.
disagree. Young has shown the potential to hit for a higher avg, more XBH power, be more of a threat on the bases and play multiple positions.
Its an interesting comparison...
…Young has the advantages you mention, but was/is also older. Not really sure which matters more.
age is largely irrelevant in this context.
the objective is to maximize the 40 man roster and promotable AAA or (projecting out to the 2012 season) AA talent that could legitimately help the team compete in the short term given budgetary constraints.
I think age matters to the extent...
…that a 23 yr old is more likely to improve than a 28 yr. old. That is all.
correct and that’s why I’m advocating going out and trading for 23 yr olds with upside.
but here I’m pointing out that what Young might add to the team is not equivalent to what Blanco might add to the team; and that Young’s age shouldn’t count against him being on the team in 2011.
Cause every team in baseball...
has “23 yr olds with upside” lying around to spare.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
I think I got a better idea
Instead of trading ML pitching for minor league players, why don’t we just develop our own through the draft? This is a much realistic option and a cheaper option. Don’t be suprised if that happenend this year. We had holes in our infield depth last year and I think Wren did a pretty damn good job filling that hole in such a short amount of time.
by Braves24 on Oct 29, 2010 10:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
ya but that is a very difficult thing to do…the Pirates have been trying to do that for 20 years and have failed miserably…I know our scouting and development is better, but that doesnt mean its tough…sometimes its easier and smarter to just buy hitters and develop pitchers…
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
I never said it's easy
professional sports are easy, but we did scout and develop(not really) Jason Heyward. I’m pretty sure we can find a couple of OF’s in this years draft. I love our minor league system and wouldn’t change a thing, but that doesn’t mean we can’t try to improve certain areas like OF depth. We certainly improved our infield depth last year, I don’t understand why we couldn’t do the same thing for the OF this year
I think we plan to do that.
But, we still have major league holes to fill in 2011, and the kids are still a ways away right now.
I dont disagree with that…i thought you were making a grander statement that we should fill our holes exclusively through the draft and stay away from FA…which is nearly impossible to do.
I completely agree we should target OF this draft…so long as that is within our philosophy of drafting the best available player. it is clearly the area that needs the most improvement.
"No. Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not even allowing natural selection do its work. Pssh. You're like the guy who invented the seat belt."
Dwight Schrute
It's not like the organization doesn't notice his performance
there’s obviously something they think would make him unsuccessful in the MLB though. What is that? I have no idea, never seen the guy play and wouldn’t know even if I did. That being said, I do hope he gets a shot and succeeds and there’s certainly less depth in front of him than in recent years so maybe he gets a solid look this spring.
R.I.P Jazz #6
This is what I wonder too. The FO isn’t full of fools. There must be something there we can’t see. Perhaps they’d hoped Schafer would be the CF fixture for the Braves, but now that it seems like that’s off the table, I hope Young gets a shot in ST.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Youngs goal in spring training needs to be to get himself added to the 40 man roster. What’s working against him is that he bats left handed and we’re already starting to look at LH heavy as the Phillies. Young has helped himself become more of a utility guy by playing some 2B last year and could only help his own cause if he tries to get some time at 3B too. He can already play all 3 OF positions and should be our 4th OF next year and take Melky’s spot. Or he could be the starter and let McLouth be the 4th OFer.
He would have been called out against the Giants...
"You can't print what I said, but they have to catch us." - Chipper Jones
cb, you might be able to help with this one...
the only conclusion that i can come up with as to why matt hasnt received some sort of shot is his defense. i cant find any real defensive writeup for matt and i can only go on what my eyes have seen, so can you tell me anything about his defense? with his speed and versatility, one would think that it would be fairly good, but i have no proof whatsoever.
Smelky is not a good player. Noone can convince me otherwise.
I think his defense is great. He’s not all world or anything but he’s above average. He can cover as much ground as anybody out there and he’s willing to dive and crash into walls, which is a big plus. His only real problem is that his arm is pathetic, which means he can’t play right and some clubs don’t like having a guy with a weak arm in center (personally I’m not a fan of a weak arm in center).
The real reason that Young hasn’t gotten a shot is that he’s incredibly small and now he’s old for a rookie. He’s one of those guys that constantly has to wow people, and those guys get overlooked. It’s not some grand conspiracy, and it’s not that the folks making the decisions have their heads up their asses, it’s just that this is how it goes for some players. He’s in that horrible catch-22 position that guys who haven’t played in the Majors in their late 20s get into; they’ll only call you up if you have experience, but you’ll never get experience because they won’t call you up. Baseball isn’t a fair life.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
He’s in that horrible catch-22 position that guys who haven’t played in the Majors in their late 20s get into; they’ll only call you up if you have experience, but you’ll never get experience because they won’t call you up.
So what does that mean for Wes Timmons? He’s on the wrong side of 30, so is he just going to be a career minor leaguer or what?
The birth of Jason Heyward was God’s punishment for the sins of the people in New York and Philly.
by TonyAlmeyda on Oct 28, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably. The chances of Wes getting called up to the Majors are almost non-existent. It’s not fair, because he certainly deserves a chance, but that’s how it works.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it:
http://www.amazon.com/Four-C-B-Wilkins/dp/1449578454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257720610&sr=1-1
www.dropoutproductions.com
matt as an option
I don’t see your post as rosterbation. players in our system are often
compared with others.
what I like about matt is his scrappy style at 5’8", maybe not a brett butler
but a hard working kid who would not complain about coming off the
bench. as a starter he has some holes.
I’ve mentioned yasser gomez the cuban 30 year old with a wealth of
experience, wile, and plate discipline as a reasonable projection as
4th or 5th OF who would not be overwhelmed by NL pitching.
I is what I is and I'm sticking to my story
I don't consider this post rosterbation
having watched him play at Gwinnett several times. I also felt he should have been given a chance. I can’t see how he could have been any worse than some of the others that were trotted out there, and quite possibly he would have been an upgrade. The guy plays hard, hustles, and gives it all he’s got when on the field. This said, the coaches and managers know him best, and must have a good reason for not giving him a chance to prove himself at the big league level.
*Just Chill* when things start to look a bit difficult-don't panic as you take away your ability to think straight. Go Braves! Go Dawgs! Go Falcons!
winter league update...
matt had 2 more hits yesterday, including a double, and added a stolen base (and was caught once). his line: .449avg .500obp .612slg
Smelky is not a good player. Noone can convince me otherwise.
kinda screams for attention, don’t it?
Bobby Cox, advising Jeff Francoeur about being thrown out of a game: "you’ll probably have to write a $500 check. Or you can do what I do, write a $10,000 one and tell them when it runs out, let me know."
absolutely...
like roseanne barr and the national anthem.
Smelky is not a good player. Noone can convince me otherwise.
I think Young's position on the team will be based upon what OF's we get this offseason.
I doubt the Braves are looking at him as a starter, but unless we end up with five major league OF’s on our roster (and right now only McLouth and Heyward are locks), I would think we would use him as the fourth or fifth OF. Since he can play some second, can pinch-run, and can play at least center and left, he is a good candidate for a fifth OF/UT. He would probably be a good candidate for a fourth OF role, but I don’t think we will have three full starting OF’s (I think we’ll find a platoon partner for McLouth), so there will be no true fourth OF spot.
M. Young is a 4th OF is okay with me.
Well anyone that thinks M. Young is ready to step in as the ATL Braves starting CF for 2011 season is one word “nuts”. While I agree he should get a look as the 4th OF and barring any crazy things this offseason trade wise etc… he should lock that spot up but he is not a starting CF as least not yet. Everyone keeps hoping that N. Mclouth is gonna bounce back and I hope he does but seriously I hope we just eat a portion of nate’s contract and move on, similar to what we were once talking about doing with KK although that has yet to truly happen.
by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Nov 2, 2010 4:20 PM EDT reply actions
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