Stop the Extra Braves Outfielder Talk
by gondeee on Jan 21, 2010 8:42 AM EST
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PrintAll around the Braves interwebs there are folks calling for Atlanta to sign Johnny Damon, or Xavier Nady, or Jermaine Dye, or one more veteran outfielder. Jeff Schultz said it yesterday, Rowland's Office says it, David O'Brien has said it, it's been said by many people, but I prefer the team we have. Yes, I prefer to go into spring training with question marks in left and right field, though I'm not sure they're really question marks.
By their actions the team clearly sees Jason Heyward making the team out of spring training, and they should, and he should make the team. He's the future, and even in a win-now year the Braves should be unafraid to work in a prospect of his talent (and to their credit, they have never been afraid to work in young players even while trying for the postseason). Heyward is ready, and we'll get a chance to see that this spring, and no one needs to block his path to the big leagues, least of all an aging veteran.
I really want to see Matt Diaz in left field. Whether he platoons with Melky Cabrera and/or Eric Hinske, Diaz, by his performance to end last season, has earned an everyday role (just like Martin Prado earned an everyday role). Diaz has some deficiencies against right-handed starting pitching, but he's getting better and posted a .749 OPS last year vs. righties. His real contribution comes against lefties, where he posted a 1.103 OPS, and a .412 batting average -- mind blowing. Somehow the Braves have to make sure his bat is in the lineup when they face lefties. Both Melky and Hinske did about the same thing vs. lefties and righties, so platooning them might be a mistake, but that is one way to get both of them regular at-bats.
With Nate McLouth situated in center field, the Braves outfield is set -- Diaz, McLouth, Heyward -- pretty good. Consider too what an extra player's role in the lineup would be. I've proposed that our lineup would look something like this going into the season: (1) McLouth, (2) Prado, (3) Chipper, (4) Glaus, (5) McCann, (6) Escobar, (7) Heyward, (8) Diaz. Where would you put a Damon? If you put him first or second, then you'd have to bury McLouth or Prado in the seventh or eighth spot. Nady or Dye, if they were signed, would get bumped to the bottom of the order, or McCann and everyone else would have to slide down a spot. The return on production for the money you'd be giving up doesn't seem worth while -- and keep in mind, while there is speculation that these guys would sign for cheap, they're certainly not holding out for just a few million dollars. They still want at least $5 to $7 million, and that's something the Braves don't seem to be able to afford.
Another reason to wait and see is that by committing what's left of our budget to a 5th outfielder, we'd be unable to have any room to maneuver during the season. Forget about the trading deadline and acquiring that extra piece we may need because the money's all gone. Most teams find out they need something by the middle of the season, why should we assume now that something that we will need is an extra outfielder. Come June or July it may be something entirely different, and if we sign one of these outfielders, we won't have enough money to go get that needed piece.
So let's stop the Johnny Damon talk, and stop the call for one more outfielder. Damon is good, but he's not that much better than what we already have in place. I prefer the wait and see approach. I prefer to save our money to fill needs during the season.
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That is exactly what needed to be said. We have the team we need already.
I remain unconvinced that Heyward will be given a legitimate chance to make the team and will be considered to need more time in AAA no matter what he does in spring training . This is all about money (arbitration and free agency in the future) and not at all about whether Heyward is ready now. Remember, the team waited longer than this last season to sign Anderson, so this may just be a waiting game to drive down the price of Damon or whoever they sign to a 1 year deal. It would be great to be wrong about this and see Heyward on the opening day roster, but I really don’t think it will happen. Remember too that (shudder) Jordan Schaffer could be given the job again for the first 2 months of the season while Heyward wastes his time in Gwinnett waiting for late May to arrive.
Thank you gondee!!!
Amen. Stop this Damon talk. We don’t need him. The Of is fine and he is a waste of money. I’ve been saying this for a while now. The trade for Melky was bad but he is a good 4th OF. He and Hinske, plus Omar, will do a great job off the bench and Matty D is a better player than Nady, Dye, and ESP. Johnny Damon. Dude is overrated.
Also, who’s to say Schafer isn’t going to rebound greatly now healthy. We know he has the potential and is truly determined. If he deserves it they will give him a chance and that’s already a log jam. Which I thinknwould lead to the trading of Nate. Don’t say this isn’t a possiblity. The kid is good and when ready will get his shot again.
by JKowalek on Jan 21, 2010 9:35 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Amen.
This makes up for your Hall of Fame posts. ;)
More impressively, you made your points without even refering to the OF defense, which is far better with Diaz/McLouth/Heyward than the other options being mentioned.
The ones where he...
…stated who he thought deserved to be in the Hall of Fame. He excluded Raines but included Dawson, among other errors.
But….but….he’s a winner! He knows how to win, and has won. He’s been on winning teams and teams that have won! When you’re a winner and you win, thats something that can only be measured in wins. His winning aura will catapult the Braves to go 120-42 and clinch the NL East in July.
"Matt Diaz is a baseball player."-Joe Simpson
And you are leaving out all the MOMENTUM!!! Momentum is everything is sports. It’s like the greatest talking point EVAR!!!
by bbxxj on Jan 21, 2010 9:52 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
i also left out “intangibles”, but winning fits into that.
"Matt Diaz is a baseball player."-Joe Simpson
and heart
which is my all-time favorite
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
David Ecksteins of the world unite!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Jan 21, 2010 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
Ok, OK. But still, do we expect a 24HR, 12SB and .282BA out of him? Outside of Home: .533SLG, 17HR
Away: .446SLG, 7HR
He had 10 more PA away as well. So with that being said i would say 15 is a fair number. Daiz had 13HR last year in his 425 PA, while Damon had 626.
He also wouldn’t be an upgrade for leadoff. He had 12 SB last year and an OBS of .365.
Nate had 19 SB(while injured) and an OBS of .352 (half with pirates)
Diaz had 12 SB and an OBS of .390, in only 425 PA again.
While Damon saw the most playing time, Nate and Matty D had the same of better numbers. Also, a healthy Nate will increase his SB numbers and a full time Diaz will also increase his.
Johnny Damon also doesn’t come close to Nate Diaz or Heyward in defense, so he doesn’t help us there either.
And Heart? If you want heart, watch Matt Diaz play my friends.
So with all of that, Nate is going to cost us $4.5mil, Diaz $2.55mil and Heyward adds a small amount to that. Right now Damon’s asking price is as much as the 3 combined. Even if he lowers that, he will still cost more than any of the three.
Do we want to pay for a downgrade?
As much as I love him...
I seriously doubt anyone on the team will have significant stolen base numbers as long as Bobby’s in the dugout.
by Bmacbandwagon on Jan 21, 2010 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
I hate players with no heart...
they decompose so quickly!
http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2008/09/whatever.html
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 21, 2010 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
Stop the Jason Heyward Opening Day RF Talk
No reason to throw away $ in the future for 2 months of J Heyward by starting him opening day.
Lets pessimistically project Cabrera as a .735 OPS guy starting in RF for two months. Lets now optimistically project Heyward as a .835 OPS guy (see Bill James at Fangraphs) once he comes up. Two months of 100 OPS points vs. letting Jason become a super 2 down the road is not worth it to me. The number of wins we may hypothetically lose this year from April – June w/o Heyward is not going to make or break the season, on its own.
Season him properly in AAA this year, and keep as much cost control as you can for when he becomes the perennial all star everyone has pegged him to become. Think Tommy Hanson, where the team did everything right.
by fphjr01 on Jan 21, 2010 9:49 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
agree 100% but...
two months is a long time to be without a 4th outfielder (which was Cabrera), who do you propose that would fill that void?
This.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 21, 2010 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree.
The analytical framework you use seems fine: the question is whether having Heyward up the first two months of the season is worth having Heyward more or less for free for an extra four months (because the first two months of this season are lost). Even assuming your OPS projections are accurate, you are not considering Heyward’s superior defense, which adds a little to the Heyward being up early as a good idea theory.
Where I disagree with you is when you say that the number of wins we may hypothetically get with Heyward up is not going to make or break the season. The Braves are a contender but not an obvious playoff team this year, or at least that is how it appears. Accordingly, the marginal value for an extra win for the Braves is very high—-a couple of extra wins may be the difference between making the playoffs or not making the playoffs.
Also, I think you are forgetting the most important point which should override both other concerns: doing what is best for Heyward’s development. Just because keeping Hanson down for an extra two months seemed to work for him, that doesn’t mean: (A) this is true—-if Hanson could have done that well all year last year, the difference between him and Jo-Jo and the other fifth starters we trotted out there for two months could have been the difference in making the playoffs or not last year, and (B) even if it is true, that doesn’t mean that the same applies to Heyward. Every prospect is different. If what is best for Heyward’s development is having him up at the start of the season, then we should do it. If having him in AAA for a month, two months or all season is the best, we should do that. Heyward’s play in spring training, AAA, and the majors will tell us those answers. While the Braves are not a large market team with an unlimited budget, we aren’t so financially tied that we should worry about payroll three years from now and sacrifice our best chance succeeding now on that basis.
2 months vs. a full extra season
Hate to disagree here but I have a really hard time buying the theory that two months of Heyward will make or break our season. The bigger concern for me is how long we can control his cost. All you have to do is look closely at the Tim Lincecum arb scenario’s to learn it’s a smart move to keep prospects down until at least after memorial day. Had the Giants done so they would only be paying Lincecum roughly 2 to 3 mil this year as opposed to the 13 he will win in arb. Not to mention how that affects his salary for the next 3 years.
I’m just as excited to see Heyward in the majors as anybody on this blog but you will have a hard time convincing me that it is a smart move to not send him down to start the year.
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
Just to clarify
Clearly Heyward would be an upgrade over Melky in the OF from day 1, wasn’t trying to argue that. The point I was trying to make is the questions regarding the health of our bullpen, Glaus and Chipper will have far more of an impact on our season than two months of Heyward.
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
Response
Lets add offense and defense together — WAR. Lets say J Heyward is a 6 WAR player, right from the get-go, day 1, and Melky is a 1.5 WAR player (he was 1.6 last year). If J Hey is in AAA for 2 months to avoid super 2, then we lose a total 1.5 WAR for that time down. Thus, the Braves have to miss the playoffs by 1 game to make J Heyward make a difference, and that’s if he’s a mega allstar from day 1 AND the team makes no other moves all season to try and add value.
Even if the Braves miss the playoffs by 1 game this year for the sole reason that Heyward was kept in AAA for two months, I still don’t care. I’d much rather bask in the long term reward that we will get from avoiding super 2. As good as he’ll be when he makes it to the show, he’ll be better +1 year from that date. We are still behind the Phillies and I’d rather wait a year for them to get closer to budget apocolypse than throw away cost controlled value for, in the best possible scenario, 1.5 wins in a season where we are most likely fighting for a wild card spot.
In my view, the best way to bring up prospects is to make them force their way on the team. I’d much rather have Heyward OPS 1.200 in AAA for two months and make the case there is no possible way we can keep him down a moment longer than run any risk at all that he struggles opening day from a lack of experience / overconfidence / nagging injury / whatever.
I guess that's where we disagree.
I think every win over replacement is vital in a scenario where we are a contender but not an obvious play-off team. We have no idea what situation we will be in 3 years from now where keeping him down will give us an advantage. True, assuming Heyward performs well, it will save us an extra $3-5 million or a little more per year for three or four arbitration years at that point to have kept him down because he will be one arbitration year ahead of what he would have been. In the best case scenario, it costs us $10 million or so for the first year (if he is MVP or something before the first arbitration year). At the fangraphs model of $3-4 million for an extra win (or WAR) on the market, that could cost us about a win per year for three or four years and maybe 2-3 wins in one year.
By that point we could easily be the class of the NL East by that time or just as easily (but hopefully not, especially if Heyward excels) a non-contender. Given the time value of money and the knowledge that an extra marginal win could easily be particularly valuable this year, I think it is worth the future cost.
As for Heyward forcing his way on to the team—-I agree to an extent, although I think he should be given the opportunity to win the job in Spring Training. The money issue doesn’t bother me that much, as I have noted above. If he wins the job in Spring Training, I say give it to him; if he doesn’t, send him down. In that case, time at AAA may help his development. I just don’t like the idea of keeping him down just to save money—-remember, if sending him down costs us a playoff appearance, we have already thrown some of the saved money (the revenue from the playoffs) away.
I still want Calero.
Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.
this
Calero was a beast last year. He would be great for our BP
You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Heyward is key
For this to work, we’re really going to need Heyward to produce and expect him to be better than a average rookie. We also are going to need Diaz to do something that he hasn’t done in his career and that’s become a successful everyday player. I still wouldn’t mind if the Braves signed Damon but to do that they have to trade Melky, because then there will be no need for him to be on the team. I trust the OF of Heyward, Damon, McLouth and Diaz more than Heyward, Diaz, McLouth and Melky.
You are missing an important point.
And it is why Damon is not a Melky replacement. Damon does not play center. Neither does Diaz. Neither does Heyward. The four-man outfield you trust more (Heyward, Damon, McLouth, and Heyward) does not allow McLouth days off against tough lefties or for minor injuries. It does however, include two left-field only guys (and yes, Diaz’s job in right last year shows he is a left-field only guy) who could only get half-time playing time at most. While Melky is not as good a hitter as Damon, his versatility makes him a better fourth OF.
Chris Resop can play OF too if the bullpen doesn’t work out haha
HansonManCrush
by HansonManCrush on Jan 21, 2010 10:26 AM EST via mobile reply actions
then you’d have to bury McLouth or Prado in the seventh or eighth spot.
That’s exactly where they belong…They are the two worst hitters in that lineup and having them go 1-2 is a mistake.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Jan 21, 2010 10:32 AM EST reply actions
I think that’s false, unless you’re nostradamus and predicting that Heyward will have a .800 OPS in his opening round.
by soup du jour on Jan 21, 2010 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
Fail. Realized after I posted that that lineup would consist of Damon. Then yeah, they would move to the 7-8 hole ideally.
by soup du jour on Jan 21, 2010 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
I think Prado is our third best contact hitter, behind Chipper and Yunel.
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 21, 2010 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
they are similar to other guys the supposed...
big time lineups have in their 7 and 8 spots. I’d think Prado would be great hitting 8th, especially if it means we have studs in front of him.
by Mr. Sanchez on Jan 21, 2010 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
This is really a nice problem to have...
… in that the lineup isn’t that clear cut. I’m personally having trouble with the 3rd spot in the order. You could argue for Chipper or Escobar being slotted in there right now, and I expect Heyward might be competing for that spot in another year or two.
But I would be sorely tempted to go McL, Prado/Heyward/Diaz, Esco, Chipper, Glaus, McC, Prado/Heyward/Diaz, Prado/Heyward/Diaz… (the hotter hitting batting 2nd) with the goal of maximizing OBP before the RBI guys.
i'd still take Damon for really cheap
but this post definitely swayed msaAy opinion on the outfield situation.
THIS is why Talking Chop is the best Braves blog on the web. great job Gondeee
Remember folks, I'm almost always wrong.
My sig was too long...
by Scott Coleman on Jan 21, 2010 10:51 AM EST via mobile reply actions
*my
stupid mobile commenting
Remember folks, I'm almost always wrong.
My sig was too long...
by Scott Coleman on Jan 21, 2010 11:15 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Pefect.
seriously we have too many outfielders as it is. Diaz, McLouth, Heyward is my fav bet…and the two pickups…Cabrera and Hinkse…and we always have schaefer…Who will get to play? Its almost like their anticipating an injury…(surprise!!!) Where is our anticipation when it comes to pitching?! We are SOL if two of our starters go down, and thats not entirely unlikely. We do NOT need Damon. If anything, he’d accept yankees offer since their expected to go to WS again.
~braves aren't a fashion...fleeting away~
by NavylovesBraves on Jan 21, 2010 11:05 AM EST reply actions
I disagree
for the right price I think Damon would be ok. I am not sold on Prado. I agree he has earned a starter spot, but I am not convinced he belongs in the 2 hole, I have no problem with him in the 7 or 8 spot. If Damon can be had for cheap, grab him and stick him in leadoff. McLouth moves to the 2 spot where his speed and power are better suited.
I have no delusions of Damon hitting 20 HR’s ever again outside of Yankee stadium, but he is still an OBP force who can swipe a bag or two. Again, if he is cheap he is very useful.
Would be block Heyward. No, for many reasons. A. the Braves could use Diaz or Damon as trade bait at the deadline if need be. B, Damon will need plenty of breaks. C, Diaz has been very good, but it isn’t like he would actually block Heyward. I know it seems cut-throat, and Diaz certainly has earned his shot, but that shot may not end up being with the Braves.
by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 21, 2010 11:47 AM EST reply actions
Diaz
I’m glad he is getting a shot at everyday play. Honestly, I thought he might get traded this off season. Damon would be a great leadoff hitter, but he brings zero defense. Schafer will be a good leadoff at some point, with good defense. He made the team last year, he just needs some rehab time and at bats and we might see him this summer. Start the year with Diaz, McLouth, Heyward, Cabrera 4th, and be ready for McLouth or Diaz in left, the other one traded, Schafer in center, Heyward in right, Cabrera 4th. That saves us $$ and gives us a leadoff type hitter.
That is making
1 very iffy presumption:
first: that Schafer will be able to jump into the majors and immediately into the leadoff role next season. That is a tall order for a guy who basically didn’t play last season from a wrist injury and lost a significant period of time before that due to his suspension.
by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 21, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
Remember this post
Because when Prado is hitting .224 with no power and Diaz is pushing for .250 you will wish we had gotten someone else. I still think it is a terrible idea to go with both of them full time.
I also think it is a bad idea to rush Heyward. I’d treat him like Hanson and call him up in the middle of the season.
Don’t mean to be a pessimist, but we overvalue Diaz and Prado like Yankees fans overvalue Melky (or their old stadium). I think we’ve still got a third place roster unless we add someone. If Dye or Nady or even Damon can be added for a cheap price like Glaus, that could make the difference.
by playertobenamedlate on Jan 21, 2010 12:04 PM EST reply actions
Pessimistic?
With Prado being a career .307 and Diaz a career .310, I’d say .224 and .250 respectively is a little beyond pessimistic.
wow
how many times do I have to mention: small sample sizes.
by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 21, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
As small as they may be, those BAs are horrible undervalues.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Jan 21, 2010 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
I hope so
but if that went down, I wouldn’t be completely shocked (ok, the .224 I might be for Prado). I mean, Prado is kind of a slap hitter, and it isn’t like he is particularly fast. If his LD% drops he is in trouble. Diaz had a high BABIP. And I know a lot of guys say, well, some guys can consistenly maintain a high BABIP, but those guys are guys like Ichiro. Diaz isn’t Ichiro, so don’t throw that BS argument my way.
I hope that that is an extreme exaggeration, but the point is that both could seriously underperform our expectations. It is a valid point, even if exaggerated.
by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 22, 2010 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
IIRC, Diaz has not really out hit is career norm BABIP…so, to say he can’t maintain it at this point is just ignoring the facts.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Jan 22, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
Ok
lets go over some facts then…
1. Diaz has played most of his career in a platoon.
2. His career BABIP is 20 points lower than his 2009 performance (though his carrer BABIP is still notably high, you are correct)
3. Diaz doubled his walk rate last season.
3. His HR/FB% was 5 points higher than his career norm
4. He accomplished all of these feats at 31 years old.
Look, I am a Diaz fan myself, I just am not going to expect him to continue his 2009 performance permanently, especially in a full time role.
by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 22, 2010 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, and while I am at it
Another fan posted that free swingers like Diaz do tend to have high BABIPs. He mentioned Vlad as an example. Checked myself, Vlad’s BABIP is .313 or so. I do like that comparison because Diaz and Vlad are both bad ball hitters who seem to get it done inexplicably, but I don’t think Diaz has a chance of beating the master at his own game.
Diaz’s BABIP is actually comparable to Ichiro, and is in fact even higher. If you really think that Diaz can do what Ichiro does, you may need to see the doctor because you may be suffering from dementia.
by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 22, 2010 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
I find #3 the most interesting thing about him.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 22, 2010 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
This. If that had not have happened, I would be more skeptical of Diaz’ numbers.
But, the fact that he started to be patient and take walks leads me to believe he may have elevated his game a bit.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Jan 22, 2010 6:22 PM EST up reply actions
Diaz has never been an "everyday player"...
outside of the disaster in 2008. So to say he can produce at that level with more exposure is also ignoring facts.
How is that ignoring facts? No facts say that Diaz is incapable of producing at his 2009 level with more exposure.
In fact, it seems that the more exposure Matt got last season, the better he did.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Jan 22, 2010 6:22 PM EST up reply actions
Batting averages FTW!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Jan 21, 2010 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
Beat me to it.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 21, 2010 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
wOBA, OPS, hell even OBP.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 21, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
I might be over-estimating this guy, but batting average tends to fluctuate. Which was why he used it to illustrate the relative probability of two guys without a whole awful lot of everyday experience having down years. But I might be over-estimating him, I don’t know.
Fair enough. But in this day in age there are simply better ways to support an argument than with BA. That’s all I’m trying to say.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 21, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
I waited for a while, then just figured “Ah, wtf. I’ll do it myself!”
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Jan 21, 2010 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
No chance at Damon
I can not believe there has been this much talk about Damon to ATL. When was the last time you saw a guy that was as much a defensive flub as Damon on the field for ATL? And for that kind of price? I have always questioned how Damon has been anything more than a DH in the Majors. The guys arm is possibly the worst in baseball; when your team does not score a lot of runs, it helps to have someone out there (Frenchy) that can take runs from the opposition, not give them away.
by Kingforaday151 on Jan 21, 2010 12:07 PM EST reply actions
When was the last time you saw a guy that was as much a defensive flub as Damon on the field for ATL?
Did you have your eyes closed all last season?
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 21, 2010 12:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Jan 21, 2010 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
He also missed the part where Frenchy became a bad fielder. Arm doesn’t mean too much when you aren’t getting to the balls.
GA LF, McLouth CF, Diaz RF was a pretty bad OF at the end of last year.
OF
If, and a good size if, Schafer rehabs and makes it back to the big leagues, would McLouth, Schafer, Heyward, Cabrera 4th, be better than Diaz in left and affordable with McLouths contract in 2011/2012?
I’d like to see McLouth/Schafer/Heyward at the end of this year/begining of next year with both Diaz and Cabrera on the bench. Diaz can be a LHP super sub for all of those LH outfielders and Cabrera can be that 4OF SH PHer. A bench can deal with two pretty versitle OF bats on the bench. Ross (bring him back), Infante, Diaz, Cabrera, and a INF UTL would be a fantastic bench in ’11.
smoltzbeard
who are you reffering to? i grew up in ny all my life, been a braves fan the whole time. seen damon live several times, it’s a joke. guy looks like the CF for my sisters softball team. have seen few players with an arm as weak as his, brave or not.
by Kingforaday151 on Jan 21, 2010 12:13 PM EST reply actions
That makes me glad you are not Frank Wren.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Jan 21, 2010 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
hes tricking you
nobody’s ever gonna believe thats a human being’s true way of thinking
by BravesRaleigh on Jan 21, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
Guess I’m in the minority with a few others. I check MLBTR hourly in the hopes that we signed Damon. An outfield of Damon/McLouth/Diaz with Melky as the 4th OF until Heyward spends some seasoning in AAA. If he proves ready see what we can get for Damon, Melky, or Diaz and if we move Melky platoon Diaz and Damon or just play who’s having the better season.
Almost makes my testicles tingle.
by Bobby Cocks on Jan 21, 2010 12:26 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Apparently...
…you don’t give a crap about OF defense; because the OF defense you are proposing for us is horrible. Absolutely abysmal.
damon/melky
reffering to GA… he"s gone, and even his arm was better. i’d agree that he was a poor signing, but not for his arm. his entire body was falling apart. should we bring damon in for a year and pay him 7mil and then get him out too?
many people want to bash wren about the move to get melky. but they want damon? damon’s #‘s could be considered just as inflated as melky’s…being that he played the majority of his career, aside from kc, in hitter’s parks. damon has already seen the best of his career, and melky is 26 i believe. some braves fans seem to forget completely that the braves are not a wealthy franchise. they have to take risks by moving high paid players (a la javy) in hopes of the return paying off. when wren succeeds, it goes unnoticed. when wren fails, everyone blows it up. if your looking for the big name, high price, glitzy player to come strolling into ATL, you might better find a new squad. look at the overall league standings year after year, and look at the payrolls. it’s amazing how atl finds themselves below average or average on payroll, and puts a winning season together most every year. competing with markets like NYM and Phila,
by Kingforaday151 on Jan 21, 2010 12:26 PM EST reply actions
Anderson’s range is so much worse than Damon’s that he becomes worse defensive player as a whole, despite the fact that he has a “superior” arm.
And for the record, I don’t want Damon on these team for anything more than $2 million or so.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 21, 2010 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
diaz hasn’t really proven to be an everyday player. i think the braves should sign damon and trade diaz. if the braves should sign damon the outfield should look like this melky in right, damon in left, mclouth in center. damon would help the braves in every catagory.
Heyward needs to be starting everyday. Whether it is in Gwinnette or Atlanta, he needs to be starting, not coming off the bench.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Jan 21, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
agree
But if we trade Diaz, start Damon, McLouth, Cabrera, I’m wondering what’s the plan for the 4th outfielder. Personally, I like Diaz, McLouth, Heyward with Cabrera 4th, trade McLouth if Schafer proves he can play and hit. I gurss I need the “sarcasm” font.
diaz hasn’t really proven to be an everyday player
I would love for you to lay out a reasonable arguement for why this is true.
I’d be willing to bet you can’t and you are just talking out your a**.
And last year
He was our best hitter, and was essentially an everyday player from June to the end of the year. He played in 94 out of 105 games the Braves played from June until an infected thumb cost him the last 4 games.
I really don’t understand how he can be our best everyday outfielder for most of a year, and you don’t think he can be a good everyday outfielder for an entire year.
I’m not saying Diaz can’t be an everyday outfielder. I’m just saying there is an argument to be made against him being an everyday outfielder. You may not agree with the argument but if you can’t see that argument then you are ignorant. And I’m not talking about you, I’m talking about the commenter who said no reasonable argument could be made.
I disagree, but at least it makes sense.
Damon would be a Diaz replacement, not a Melky replacement. To the extent that you think Damon is an upgrade on Diaz, I disagree, but if one thought that he was, the idea would at least be logical.
I don’t think it’s so stupid to see Damon as a Melky replacement. If we traded Melky and signed Damon, Infante could spell McLouth in CF a few times a month and we could afford to keep Heyward in the minors for a few months. We could use anybody as a fourth outfielder until June or July. Blanco? It doesn’t really matter. But it would be worth it to save the money in the future keeping Heyward from super two status while giving the kid some more at-bats in the high minors.
This must seem stupid if you think Melky is worth keeping long term. But nobody does, right?
Why not? He’s played 32 games there over his major league career and 8 last year. You wouldn’t want him to be your everyday center fielder, but he could play there sparingly.
You didn't see Infante playing center field, right?
I mean, you can trot anyone out there, hell you could stick Adam Dunn out there, but the results wouldn’t be pretty. Other than Melky, we don’t really have anyone besides McLouth that can capably man centerfield. Blanco’s defense is fine, but he logged a .605 OPS in AAA last year; that’s a major ouch. The defensive issues are multiplied by Damon forcing Diaz to right field where he is not good (and that’s an understatement). As I explained in a post above, I am not concerned so much about the future money because all indications are that we could be in a close race this year, making the marginal value of an extra win more important this year than other years. I say, put the best team out there that we can; if that means Heyward from Day 1, put him out there, if it doesn’t, send him to AAA. I just don’t see how Damon helps matters, however, unless you don’t think Diaz can cut it. Yeah, Damon, Diaz, and McLouth may be a better hitting OF than we would have if we kept Heyward down and went with Diaz, McLouth, and Melky for a month or two, but the defensive difference would more than make up for it—-playing two left fielders and no right fielders doesn’t work too well.
Yeah, I saw Infante play. He didn’t seem terrible to me. Like I said, not a long term solution, but it would be worth saving the money in the long run on Heyward.
Diaz didn’t look too lost in right last year…his UZR numbers aren’t great and his arm obviously isn’t ideal, but the difference between Damon’s and Melky’s bats is pretty substantial too.
I think what it comes down to is do you think that Heyward can out-hit Damon come Opening Day. I’m not convinced…and weighing that with the saved money in 2013, yeah, I’d say a flyer on Damon is worth it if his price is still dropping come Valentine’s Day.
you think damon’s a home run hitter don’t you?
by BravesRaleigh on Jan 21, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
I prefer to go into spring training with question marks in left and right field, though I not sure they’re really question marks.
Objectively speaking, they are definitely question marks and I don’t prefer to go into spring training with question marks. Not sure Johnny Damon is the answer as his signing would create other issues as well but there is a reason some people want the Braves to sign an outfielder if an affordable option presented itself.
Correct.
Why spend “a few million” when you don’t have to?
Besides, this is a chance to put Scott Boras in an embarrassing negotiating position, a rare opportunity which shouldn’t be missed on behalf of all the owners.
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