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Braves 1B situation in near future


From what I can tell, the Braves will have a few spots to fill in their lineup for next year:  1B, corner outfield, closer.  This post concerns some options for 1B, with some assumptions I'll outline below.  Appreciate everyone's thoughts and comments.

The main assumption I'm going to make is that Freddie Freeman is the Braves 1B of the future, and by future I mean 2012 at the earliest.  Freddie turns 20 this September, and while it appears that he's been shut down for the year with an injury, he is still showing a lot of promise.  Prospects flame out and appear out of nowhere, but he seems to have a good shot at success.  If he arrives to stay on the ML roster in 2012, he'll be 21 going on 22 -- that's pretty young.

So now the question I've been pondering is this -- what can the Braves do to best bridge the gap to Freddie, that both keeps the team competitive in the short term and yet doesn't block Freddie when he's ready (hopefully) just a few years from now.  The ideal solution would be a player who is signed for the next 2 years maybe with an option for a third.  I've taken a look at the starting 1B all across MLB and organized them into groups as detailed below.

1.  Untouchables:  These are players, in my opinion, who will not under any conceivable circumstance appear in a Braves uniform.  Reasons for this include:  already locked up in a long term contracts, very expensive (think $12M / yr or more), have no-trade clauses, or are young superstars pre-arbitration (i.e. their current owners would be foolish to trade them).  Players on this list are:

Ryan Howard, Albert Pujols, Derrick Lee, Lance Berkman, Joey Votto, Todd Helton, Mark Texiera, Miguel Cabrera, Justin Morneau, Kendry Morales

2.  Players not better than what we have now:  Currently, the Braves have two viable options (as I see it) for 1B, Martin Prado and Adam LaRoche.  I took a look at player WAR over the last few years, and the following players are in my judgment inferior to just playing Prado everyday, or resigning LaRoche to a market-value deal.

James Loney, the SF duo (Garko / Ishikawa), Lyle Overbay, Hank Blalock

3.  Players currently under contract who hit FA in 2011:  This group would basically be a 1yr rental, at which point the Braves would have to either re-sign (and potentially block Freeman) or repeat the process after the 2010 season.  In my opinion, Freeman probably will not be ready by 2011, so I don't think acquiring one of these players helps the Braves as much in the interim.  They are:

Jorge Cantu, Carlos Pena, Adam Dunn, Paul Konerko, Victor Martinez (who should probably be "untouchable")

 

With the players above eliminated from contention, we have two groups left of players I think could be a good fit for the near future.

4.  Free Agents after 2009:  The following is not an exhaustive list of FA, but rather the folks I felt are / were at some point good enough to be a ML starter. 

Adam LaRoche, Nick Johnson, Carlos Delgado, Russell Branyan, Aubrey Huff

5.  Players who might make sense to acquire:  These players are currently under contract, but for a long enough period of time to acquire without blocking Freeman.  Ideally they'd hit FA when he's ready, at which point we could let them walk and maybe nab some draft picks in the process:

Prince Fielder, Adrian Gonzalez, Conor Jackson

 

Now that I've binned all the players, who should we sign already?  Here's my take, player-by-player from lists 4 and 5.

Adam LaRoche - Best season is about 2.5 WAR, which means he's an average to slightly above 1B.  Has a history of starting slow and then pouring it on in the 2nd half, which has held true for us so far.  Good with the glove, which is a plus, and no injury history to speak of.  Probably would stay with the Braves if we don't low ball him.

Nick Johnson - He is the offensive yin to LaRoche's yang; whereas LaRoche has nice power and decent OBP, Nick gets on base at a tremendous clip -- .400+ lifetime average, but has limited power.  He is a prototypical 2 hitter, a spot the Braves don't particularly need.  Has a very checkered injuy past, has had about the same or slightly higher WAR as LaRoche.  All things equal I'd probably rather have LaRoche for durability.

Carlos Delgado - I think the main question with this guy is does he still del-got-it?  He'll turn 38 next year, and that's getting old for a Braves team that has gotten decidedly younger in the last two years.  That said, he did hit 38 HR's last year for folks who like counting stats.  All those bombs equated to 2.9 WAR, however, and his output was almost entirely in the second half, when he went nuts.  He's missed basically the entire year with the newly vogue hip impingement, so he's an injury risk as well.

Russell Branyan - a career journeyman who's never started until this year, where he has taken full advantage and been a winning lottery ticket for the Mariners.  He's 34 with basically this year as evidence of his potential.  Which Branyan is the real one?  Not sure I want to gamble for two years to find out.

Aubrey Huff - Huff seems to alternate between pretty darn good (4+ WAR) and pretty lousy (< 1 WAR seasons), and is awful this year.  I think he could play a little 3B in a pinch, which would give the Braves some flexibility, but we probably don't need that with Infante and Prado.  Another guy that's hard to call. 

Prince Fielder - Is this guy untouchable?  I don't necessarily think so.  Main reason is because the Brewers don't have the biggest budget in the world and they need pitching, something we have an excess of.  Prince is signed through 2010, and then has his 3rd year of arbitration in 2011.  If we could line up a deal for him, we'd be bringing in a premier slugger to fill out the middle of the lineup.  He would likely cost us big, however --  the Brewers would probably want Jurrjens as a start.  Finally, in the event Freeman doesn't work out, we could always just try and open the pocketbook and make Prince the franchise player, as Lowe and Chipper's salaries will be coming off the books when he hits FA or the year after.

Adrian Gonzalez - Personally, I think he's untouchable, but people love to dream about getting this guy.  I leave him here simply because the Padres are re-building and no one on that roster now may really be untouchable.  A king's ransom would be required to pry him loose, and I doubt if the Braves could come out ahead in such a deal.

Conor Jackson - Not sure what to make of Jackson -- he's missed almost the entire year with some kind of pneumonia, and he probably isn't that much better than LaRoche even when he's healthy.  Only reason to consider him is he has 2 years of arbritration left, so he'd be cheaper in dollars than the FA but would cost other prospects in return. 

 

So at the end of the day, what do I think we should do?  If I were Frank Wren, I'd inquire about what it might take to relieve the Brewer's of Fielder's salary, and see if a blockbuster deal could happen.  Otherwise, I think LaRoche is probably our best option.  He's not as good as he's been this summer, but he's at least league average with potential for more.  The other FA are either old, injury-prone, hit-or-miss, or really not that much of an upgrade, and could cost draft picks to sign for the same money.  Adam is not exactly elite talent -- a 2 year deal with a 3rd option + buyout could probably get him to stay.  If he wants huge money, we could start Prado at first, but that hurts the infield flexibility that has been so valuable to the Braves this year. 

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Haven’t read the entire post but already disagree with 2012 at earliest for freeman, if he plays well next year at AA then he’ll be up for 2011 as the starter

by McCann's the Man on Aug 24, 2009 8:08 PM EDT reply actions  

+1

Mat Gamel is way too cool for double consonants.

by VivaLosBravos on Aug 24, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also no chance we give up Jurrjens for Prince. That’d be stupid. I think our best option is offering Adam arbitration because if he accepts we fill our 1B hole and if he doesn’t then we get a sandwich pick as he stands to be a Type B FA. If he walks then Nick Johnson, Troy Glaus (i know he’s a 3B but a switch to 1B is coming), or Prado are the best options imo

by McCann's the Man on Aug 24, 2009 8:15 PM EDT reply actions  

I would trade JJ for Fielder.

So long as we didnt have to give up much else/

by esadb on Aug 24, 2009 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

id do it too

and i doubt we would give up anything more then an AAA player or reliever.

in 2010 our lineup would be:

Mclouth
prado/KJ
chipper
prince
BMac
Heyward
Esco
diaz/church

rotation:
Javy/Huddy
Hanson
DLowe
KK
Medlen/ FA starter/pitcher via trade

i really think that team would be nasty as long as we add a good closer (and we definitely should be able to with Gonzo and Soriano clearing about $11 million in salaries after this year)

7/24/2009 - "The Phillies are too far ahead in the NL East for the Braves to make a run." - Buster Olney

REMEMBER THAT BOYS.

by mvhsbball on Aug 24, 2009 9:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

straight up talent, no doubt, but the difference in contracts makes Jurrjens far more valuable imo. 2 more years of control for Prince at a high cost versus one pre arb year of JJ and then 3 arb years. Advantage Brewers in that deal

by McCann's the Man on Aug 24, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fielder

After trading away LaPorta, I’m not sure Prince is available. Then again, I believe they did offer Fielder for Cain last offseason…

by Yakker on Aug 24, 2009 8:20 PM EDT reply actions  

they Mat Gamel… and he isnt really a 3B… so losing Prince isnt as big of a problem as u think (or as i project that u think)

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Aug 25, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the plan is to let Gamel stick at 3B, but you’re right. He may have to slide over to 1B. I’ve seen Gamel at 3B and he seems fine enough, but who really knows? Even the Brew Crew probably don’t know yet, although that’s why they released Hall and will get plenty of reps in at 3B for McGehee and Gamel for the rest of this year.

by Yakker on Aug 25, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

He could also move to the OF, Hart won’t be around too much longer. I think he sticks at third with McGehee getting some chances at second and weeks in center

by McCann's the Man on Aug 25, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree this is probably how it will work out, though Gamel in OF would be a little scary.

by Yakker on Aug 25, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

it’s worked well for ryan braun who is league average in left but was historically bad at third. I think Gamel is actually good enough defensively to remain at third though

by McCann's the Man on Aug 25, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gamel isnt the athlete that Braun is…moving him to the OF would be a bad idea… he wouldn’t be that much better in the Of than he is at 3B.

In regards to him being a better 3B… he apparently has made serious strides in his defense… so maybe he can stick there… time will tell

And as a Beermaker supporter I must say the Weeks in CF is something I was advocating before they signed Cameron and I still think its the way to go… you need his bat somewhere in that lineup and he is plenty athletic hold down CF (assuming he can learn to make the proper reads and stuff)

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Aug 25, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I live in Nashville

so I’ve seen a ton of Gamel this year. He actually has fair enough range in my un-scout opinion, but when he gets hurried his throws are ALWAYS errant. He just needs to settle down, sometimes.

Mat Gamel is way too cool for double consonants.

by VivaLosBravos on Aug 25, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Excellent analysis although Freddie may progress faster than you expect and the chemistry of team screams out for a big push to bring back Roachy.

by fandave on Aug 24, 2009 8:34 PM EDT reply actions  

I doubt that Gonzalez would be available for us because of what it would require us giving up. I could see Freeman being ready to come up mid 2010. I wouldn’t be against Delgado coming here next year if he would sign cheaply.

by jack dein on Aug 24, 2009 8:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Especially now with Freeman’s injury, I don’t think he should be up until 2011. Too much risk involved to rush him next year – he’s nowhere near Heyward’s level yet, and we have no reason to – especially if Heyward is ready to provide some pop in the lineup. I think our best option is to resign LaRoche to a short team deal (2 years preferably), and hope he continues to smash the ball like he’s doing right now.

by BigG1392 on Aug 24, 2009 9:20 PM EDT reply actions  

There's no reason to compare him to Heyward

That isn’t really fair. He played well immediately after his promotion to AA, and the injury may be partially responsible for his recent struggles. I don’t think you can say he won’t be ready by 2011.

Mat Gamel is way too cool for double consonants.

by VivaLosBravos on Aug 24, 2009 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sign LaRoche to a 7-year deal and trade freeman for whatever we need when his value is highest. I’m sorry, I just don’t see much in Freeman, reminds me too much of Kotchman.

by BravesRaleigh on Aug 24, 2009 9:47 PM EDT reply actions  

Except Freeman already had a season in which he hit 5 less homers than Kotchman hit in his first 4 seasons in the minors

by yondaime4 on Aug 24, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

zing!

Mat Gamel is way too cool for double consonants.

by VivaLosBravos on Aug 25, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree

Freeman could def be up before 2012 possibly even next year. Before he went on the DL he was starting to heat up in AA along with Heyward. If he is healthy and shows up big in the AFL you could see him as our 1B next year along with Heyward in the OF.

As far as JJ for Fielder, thats a very intriguing idea however I wouldnt do it simply because Freeman is so close.

JJ for Braun is something i would look more into if I were the Braves. Maybe add Church/Diaz in there im not sure but thats a move that i think will benefit us more. If we were able to get that trade done I would say to deal McLouth If/When Schafer is ready just to bring us a RH Big Bat.

by drumzalicious on Aug 24, 2009 10:25 PM EDT reply actions  

Why would they do JJ for Braun? Braun is signed to arguably the second most team friendly contract in baseball, behind evan longoria, and is one of the best players in the league. There are only a couple of guys the brewers would trade braun for and Jurrjens is not one of them

by McCann's the Man on Aug 24, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know

It would need something added on the Braves side but that is something that i feel would be more beneficial for the team instead of adding Fielder

by drumzalicious on Aug 24, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

More than just something, it would need a lot added. No trade with the Brewers for either of their two stars makes sense

by McCann's the Man on Aug 24, 2009 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

It would take a ton to get Ryan Braun. ALOT more than JJ. Count me out for even thinking what that would cost us.

7/24/2009 - "The Phillies are too far ahead in the NL East for the Braves to make a run." - Buster Olney

REMEMBER THAT BOYS.

by mvhsbball on Aug 24, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

That must be the difference

between being a Boras client, and not.

Mat Gamel is way too cool for double consonants.

by VivaLosBravos on Aug 24, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks, good work

I disagree about your ETA for Freeman, and a couple of your other points, but it’s nice to have this to refer to. Rec’d

Mat Gamel is way too cool for double consonants.

by VivaLosBravos on Aug 24, 2009 11:07 PM EDT reply actions  

yea

the ETA was off. I wouldnt be surprised to see him starting sometime next year

by drumzalicious on Aug 24, 2009 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’d like to see Glaus’s right handed .850 OPSing bat brought in to play 1B for a year. It might be a good idea for him to take a one year decent money gig to bring his value up after the injury so he can leave without being an A/B free agent. If Glaus doesn’t work we could just go with the original Prado until Freeman plan.

by bbxxj on Aug 24, 2009 11:56 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Yeah my favorite option is Glaus, he’s the epitome of right handed power and up until this year had strung 4-5 healthy seasons together. But people on here will say that he can’t make the switch to first easily which is completely false imo. He’s the most likely to take a one year deal and it won’t be for big money

by McCann's the Man on Aug 25, 2009 7:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m starting to come around to this. It would be great if he could play a little in September, just to see him in action post-surgery, but it doesn’t seem like that’s going to happen.

by Yakker on Aug 25, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good job

If anything were possible, I’d go with Adrian Gonzalez. Great bat, above-average glove, and if he can mash in a place like PETCO, I’d love to see him mash 81 games at Turner Field.

But what I think could be more realistic would be to target Nick Johnson. See if he’ll bite to a decent contract, and due to his spotty injury history, try and tie in some clauses based on games played, to kind of protect the team from if he does get another one of his long-term injuries. He’s a consistent OBP machine, with a great eye, and tons of patience. This kind of puts the Braves back into the Casey Kotchman situation, of having not enough power, but Johnson is still a doubles machine with the ability to still hit for some limited power. I’d like to believe that his influence could rub off on some of the other players, especially if lumped in like a #2 hole in front of Chipper. Having two guys have to open up a game going to 3-2 counts and making a pitcher work could be promising.

No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.

by royhobbs on Aug 25, 2009 12:36 AM EDT reply actions  

what do you think it would take to get AGon?

Im thinking a lot, and they would definately want some of our talented minor league pitching prospects.

Maybe:
Freeman
Teharan
Spurril (Or a different above average pitching prospect)
Cody Johnson

Think that might do it? Im kinda thinking the Padres might want KJ.

7/24/2009 - "The Phillies are too far ahead in the NL East for the Braves to make a run." - Buster Olney

REMEMBER THAT BOYS.

by mvhsbball on Aug 25, 2009 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

The Pads would have no interest in KJ and i’m not sure how much they would really want Freeman also with Kyle Blanks already there. There’s not a good match between the two teams. Plus we’d be wiping our system clear to get him

by McCann's the Man on Aug 25, 2009 7:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Dear God No

Teheran stays everyone else can go

by drumzalicious on Aug 26, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

for AGon...

something fair for both teams. they don’t need Freeman as they have Blanks and Dykstra in the minors (both of whom are capable). they will want arms AT LEAST a ML ready pitcher.

JJ
Medlen
Kimbrel
Parr

for

AGon

by apoxonbothyourhouses on Aug 27, 2009 8:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

why would you keep Freeman?

it’s just that this whole trade is about making 1st Base a (cornerstone) of our organization not blocking one potentially great player with another? and Freeman is useless as a rookie bench player in a lineup as left-handed as ours is already. This would only stunt his growth and make him less value in a trade to another team.

and Medlen IMO is a ML ready pitcher (at the very least in relief)

by cirela20 on Aug 27, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jurrjens seriously? I wouldn’t trade his 4 yrs of control for A-Gon’s 2

by McCann's the Man on Aug 27, 2009 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nick the Stick

Great option, could be willing to do an incentive-laden deal, but you’d almost certainly have to have another MLB-quality 1B on the roster, for the 40-50 games Johnson misses.

by Yakker on Aug 25, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I only want Johnson if he always wears the mustache. The power of the Stash is highly underrated. We’d still need one more infielder for the corners as between Chip and Nick you’re looking at 80-100 games they’ll be injured.

by BravesfaninMontana on Aug 25, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good point

On the 80-100 games. Well, actually, good point on the Stash too. Hell, two good points.

by Yakker on Aug 25, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

No way on Teheran

Maybe Spruill , Freeman and Cody, but I wouldn’t include Teheran in any deal at the present time. At age 18, he could still become a #1, but it would take a couple more years to find that out. You don’t trade a future #1 for anybody! How old is Gonzalez?

by Braves fan since 1966 on Aug 25, 2009 1:28 AM EDT reply actions  

26 or 27

He’s always older than I think he is.

Mat Gamel is way too cool for double consonants.

by VivaLosBravos on Aug 25, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good comments everyone

I’m a bit surprised at all the feedback that Freeman will be ready so soon. I should have included a poll asking when you think he’ll be up to stay as the starter. I’m holding to my original ETA of 2012 as the full time starter, which would probably mean some time up in 2011.

For folks who think he’ll be ready next year, you need to stop drinking the kool aide and get a reality check. He has a grand total of 170 PA’s at AA, with 1.5 promising seasons of A ball under his belt. Apparently he was hurt for the promotion to AA or so they say, but he has not adjusted to even the AA level yet. No way is he ready before 2011 at the absolute earliest. We don’t have a need to rush him like Schafer or Francouer or other prospects when we can easily grab a FA for 2 years to plug the gap.

Freeman’s has an .899 OPS season in low A and .841 OPS in half a season at the beach. I don’t have a projection tool in hand, but I’m guessing that he won’t do anywhere near that at the ML level without a good deal more experience. Conversely, LaRoche has a career .835 OPS at the ML level. He costs more, but he helps the ML team win, and we don’t have to sign him to a long term deal. Bringing up Freeman early does not benefit him or the team.

by fphjr01 on Aug 25, 2009 8:09 AM EDT reply actions  

Freeman’s power hasn’t fully developed so comparing OPS isn’t really fair right now since his slg% is nowhere near where it will be. I said 2011 because he’s already excellent defensively and the schafer and francoeur comp’s are terrible, freeman simply put, makes way better contact than both. I think his power comes through next year and he starts opening day 2011. There is a chance they delay his arb years by holding him out at the start of 2011 a la Hanson but no way he doesn’t get here before 2012 barring major injury

by McCann's the Man on Aug 25, 2009 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Couple Points

1. Comparing OPS actually is fair because it is what it is with the body he had at the time. You suggest that he hasn’t grown into his frame completely yet — that’s another reason to give him more time to develop physically and adjust to the changes in his body without the pressure of producing at the ML level.

2. You don’t like the Schafer / Francouer comps, and that’s probably a fair enough point, so I’ll restate it this way — he hasn’t seen anything yet resembling ML-level off speed and breaking stuff, and that is a required adjustment all hitters will have to make. He has to do that AND adjust to the AA level, which I argue he hasn’t really done at all yet. Doing both in just a year’s time is a stretch for me. You are optimistic about it and that’s great — I am a bit more conservative with how quickly he can progress.

3. We both agree that he will not be ready in 2010 (at least I think we agree). In that case, we need a longer-than-one-year solution at 1B unless we pencil Freeman in as the starter in 2011 this offseason. None of the FA save maybe Delgado would accept arbitration because they’ll be able to get better (i.e. longer) deals on the FA market — the Braves aren’t the only team with 1B needs. A minimum of a 2yr deal will almost certainly be required to keep LaRoche or get someone better. We might get lucky a la Mariners with R Branyan, but I’d prefer not to pin my hopes on that. Giving the 1B job to Prado is ok, but requires us to play KJ everyday at 2B, which may or may not be a good idea and definitely reduces positional flexbility. In my view, paying a FA for the 2010 and 2011 seasons lets Freeman develop with no rush and no pressure and gives him the best possible chance for success.

by fphjr01 on Aug 25, 2009 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

1. I’m just saying that I fully expect the power to come in this next year
2. That’s fair, I just hate that everybody uses schafer and frenchy. Also, I think his lack of top notch success at AA is more a result of the hand injury, he was extremely good the first couple of weeks
3. LaRoche can be offered arbitration, if he accepts then it’s a one year deal if not we get a comp pick which is also good. Then my preference on the FA market is Troy Glaus and a combo of Prado/KJ on the right side isn’t that bad and it would actually be one of the best fielding 1B/2B duos in the majors. If we lock ourselves into a 2 year contract I just feel like we’re going to be paying good money to a guy that really isn’t an upgrade over what we have and that money can be better utilized, at worst Prado could play a month or two at first in 2011.

by McCann's the Man on Aug 25, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Actually when he came up to AA he was mashing and hitting everything. He wasnt on the level of Heyward but if i recall correctly his BA was around .300 and he was doing pretty well for himself and started falling off these last couple of weeks and the injury is a big part of that. So to say he couldnt handle AA is a mis-judgement on your behalf.

by drumzalicious on Aug 26, 2009 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

170 PA's

At any level is not enough to say whether anyone has or has not adjusted yet — that’s the point I was making. The only misjudgement here is you assuming after two or three weeks of good performance that he’s shown everything he needs to show.

by fphjr01 on Aug 26, 2009 8:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

“Apparently he was hurt for the promotion to AA or so they say, but he has not adjusted to even the AA level yet”

Thats what you said. All I was saying to you is that your misjudging his ability by saying he hasnt adjusted to AA. We don’t know that he has but from how he started it shows a lot of promise. We will all find out how well he has adjusted when he starts there next year.

by drumzalicious on Aug 26, 2009 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sign LaRoche for 3 years and $24 million

If we can get LaRoche for this kind of contract then I think Wren would be thrilled. I agree that Freeman won’t be ready to be a full time starter until the 2012 season and whenever he’s ready we can always trade LaRoche. The good thing about having a veteran first baseman with a plus glove and pretty good power is that lots of teams are always looking for said skills. If LaRoche wants more than 3 years or $9 million per year then I think we just offer arbitration and go from there. In my opinion we won’t do better than LaRoche. Sure there are better players out there we could trade for, but we would have to give up too many assets to acquire them.

by KC Ryan on Aug 25, 2009 11:39 AM EDT reply actions  

why three years? Then we’d have him through 2012, that would be stupid unless we as an organization have absolutely no faith in freddie freeman which seems unlikely. 2 years max

by McCann's the Man on Aug 25, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

agreed

I’d like to see Adam signed for 2 years at possibly 15.5-16.5 mil (back loaded), maybe with an option that would allow stay in 2012 in case for whatever reason Freeman doesn’t pan out.

IMO this would make him reasonably happy (I believe 8+ mil/yr is fair market value for him, but who knows with a weak 1st Base class this offseason), and the 3rd year option might make him appealing in a deadline trade because he’d be more than a half year rental in 2011, if Freddie is deemed ready.

by cirela20 on Aug 25, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

why would u back load the contract…. people always suggest that… but it doesnt always make sense…(i.e. the Vernon Wells contract…go ahead look it up its the definition of an albatross)

With McCann’s contract increasing exponentially (although he is still well worth w/e we are paying him)… it would actually make sense to front load the contract if anythign…. more sensibly we would spread out the damage evenly…

Backloading is a horrible idea…. its just put off a problem to a later date… by doing it we screw ourselves for 2011

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Aug 25, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Backloading will make a ton of sense if we hand out a long term deal, 2013 projects to have about 60 million tied down with conservatively high arbitration estimates but you are right we can’t backload a contract for 2011 or 2012 when we figure to be right at the ~90M threshold. McCann’s contract never gets above 13 iirc so it’s not really a big deal. We don’t have the budget space to play around with contracts in the coming years though, we’ll have room to add but in even increments

by McCann's the Man on Aug 25, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was just using McCann as an example of an increasing contract it does go up so it doenst really matter wht the highest nbr is there is still an increase which cuts into our budget for next year… but i get what ur saying

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Aug 25, 2009 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

back loading a 2 yr. 16 mil contract isn’t a huge deal in my scenario it would give LaRoche the a light contract for the year we need to keep him, which I believe is next year while still promising him longer-term financial security even if trade him the next year anyway.

More importantly in this years FA market I think Adam will command at least 16 mil. over 2 years, this scenario would at least leave us an out from paying the whole team, since we’d probably trade him once Freeman is ready.

and with the tendency for teams to overpay for deadline deals (Mets, Yankees, Dodgers), at the very least we might only have to pay him a portion of his back loaded salary, if that!

anyone see where I’m coming from?

by cirela20 on Aug 27, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

wow

this was some poor typing, if u can get past my grammatical errors, i’m just saying, even giving LaRoche a 2-4mil raise from year 1-2 could allow us to not pay him his entire salary, in the event we trade him at the 2011 deadline and call up Freddie Freeman.

by cirela20 on Aug 27, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

You should have given that speech to Congress about 6 months ago.

"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT

by justincredubil02 on Aug 25, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

easy on the politcs… u know I agree with u but lets not start this

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Aug 25, 2009 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Play LaRoche for 2 years, trade him and get prospects in return

You also have insurance in the event the Freeman isn’t ready for 2012. It’s a better idea than letting him walk and trying to get draft picks, especially if you really don’t want the player to accept arbitration. The only gamble (and given his age/production, I don’t think it’s much of one), is that another team won’t consider his contract worth taking in exchange for a prospect.

"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09

by buzzdeadwax on Aug 25, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

If Freeman isn’t ready for 2012 then he will no longer be viewed as the 1B answer but rather a bust of sorts. LaRoche for 2 years max imo, then it would go to freeman or we could commit huge money to one of Prince Fielder or Adrian Gonzalez in FA.

by McCann's the Man on Aug 25, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Argenis Diaz and Hunter Strickland!

Whoo-pee!

Mat Gamel is way too cool for double consonants.

by VivaLosBravos on Aug 25, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nothing at all!

Whoo-pee!

?

Neither of those guys appears to be great (although Strickland sounds like he has some upside, and is only 20), but isn’t something better than nothing?

"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09

by buzzdeadwax on Aug 25, 2009 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Freeman is only 19 years old

I hardly would consider the guy a bust if it took him until the age of 22 or 23 to become a full time starter in the majors. How many major league starting first basemen are under 22 years old? Not many. Give the guy to to develop his game and gain strength in the minors for a couple more years and he still will be 21 or 22 years old when we bring him up.

by KC Ryan on Aug 26, 2009 3:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

If it takes him 3 years to get through AA/AAA I can guarantee that he will no longer be viewed quite as highly around here as he is now

by McCann's the Man on Aug 26, 2009 7:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well sure

That’s just logic, but it still doesn’t mean that he is a bust. 2-3 years to get through AA and AAA ball is still flying through the minors. He may not be in Baseball America’s top 50 if it takes him a little longer to get through the minors but, like I said before, how many productive big league starting first basement are under 22 or 23 years old? Listen, the guy has played great for the first year and a half in the system facing pitchers who haven’t yet developed good command of their secondary pitches. He is in AA now and guys at that level are much more capable of throwing secondary pitches for strikes and he hasn’t proven yet (at 19 years old) that he can thrive at an advanced level. Gimme a break with your irrational belief that Freeman will be considered a bust if it takes him a total of 4 to 5 years to become a quality starting first basemen after being drafted out of high school. I would guess that the Braves would be thrilled if Freeman develops to the point that he can be a really good player at the major league level in that time frame.

by KC Ryan on Aug 26, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I dont see him being a quality 1st baseman if it takes three more years. And don’t use the 2 because then you’re twisting my words to make me look dumb, i said 3 and only 3. Him having made it this far in 1.5 really has no bearing on this discussion and neither does age. If he doesn’t get promoted for 3 years then imo that means the power never showed up and we’re looking at a .300 hitter who doesn’t walk much and doesn’t hit for much power, not all that enticing. Bust was certainly an overstatement but he would be a disappointment if he isn’t up by ’11

by McCann's the Man on Aug 26, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

it’s not flying it just means he got a bit of a head start in comparison to collegiate players and undrafted free-agents.

I agree if Freddies development is stunted to that point, we might have another Andy Marte on our hands and that is not good for us

by cirela20 on Aug 27, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Konerko. I don’t care we’d only get him for one year. If Freeman isn’t ready by 2011, then we can find some other 1 year plug.

Konerko would give us everything we need at 1B, right handed big power.

by tomahawkin108 on Aug 25, 2009 3:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Bad idea, he’s expensive. Troy Glaus would come much cheaper if you want a right handed hitter with big power assuming he’s healthy and his defense would surely be better than konerko’s.

by McCann's the Man on Aug 25, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

i assume the CHW would give us a crap load of money to take that contract or they wouldnt ask for nay prospects at all… so its not as bad of an idea as u make it seem.

That said… Id still rather have Glaus… im on that bandwagon as well (note to the members… if you rememebr the clamoring for DUnn last year… we might have that same experience but for Glaus)

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Aug 25, 2009 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m just thinking why give up any prospect and pay 10+Million when you could get a better hitter for less w/o giving up anything. Best case scenario in this whole 1B situation: LaRoche declines arbitration and we receive Type B compensation (sandwich pick), healthy Glaus signs one year incentive laden contract, plays like his old self and nets draft pick compensation as well, freeman rakes at AA and AAA in 2010, and opening day 2011 the future arrives in Freddie Freeman

by McCann's the Man on Aug 25, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

to receive any compensation he has to accept arb… or at least that is my understanding… we wouldnt offer arb to either Glaus or to LaRoche (or at least i dont think so)

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Aug 26, 2009 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

No the player has to decline arbitration. Offering LaRoche arbitration is the best course of action this offseason, if he accepts then the 2010 1B situation is solved and if he declines we can either pursue a 2 year deal or net a sandwich pick.

by McCann's the Man on Aug 26, 2009 7:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

you are correct… i misremembered the rules

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Aug 26, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

LaRoche will be back !

LaRoche will be resigned I have been watching bobby cox for over 20+ yrs now and they did not get him back to simply let him walk. He will be brought back on a two yr deal with a club opition for a third. LaRoche is the gap player that the Braves wanted all along !!

Are you guys kidding me Prado is our starting 2b and Infante is our crazy utility player, plus Conrad will get a shot at next years camp to get a backup 2b job as well.

Go Braves !

by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Aug 26, 2009 1:24 AM EDT reply actions  

Prado cannot and will not start everyday as the Braves 1b period, to short, not enough power and his glove is not 1b quality. 1b glove only not talking at all about his 2b or 3b glove which is way above average to good !!!

by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Aug 26, 2009 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Way wrong there. Prado is Kotchman with better on base skills, he’s an elite defender at 1B (small sample size but still) and he’s really bad at second

by McCann's the Man on Aug 26, 2009 7:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

LaRoche will NOT...I repeat will NOT sign for less than 3 years!

The LaRoche question may be moot if he gets a five year offer from someone else for $40-$50 million. This will be his last big contract most likely. He probably will resign with the Braves if we offer anything remotely close to what he can get on the open market, but the guy will absolutely not sign a one or two year deal. This offseason is his shot to make big money and I just hope we have a shot with him. All you Glaus lovers need to get a grip. No way in hell do the Braves pay a guy that has a long history of injuries, has got hands of stone, and is coming off major shoulder surgery. Not to mention he’s 33 and never played first base.

by KC Ryan on Aug 26, 2009 2:54 AM EDT reply actions  

Long history of injury? The same Glaus who has played like 150+ games 4 out of the 5 previous years? He has played first base in limited action, it’s also one of the easiest positions to switch to. He’s also the best hitter on the FA market, better than both Holliday and Bay. As long as his health checks out to play first, he’s a very enticing option. Hands of stone? You’re talking about a guy that has consistently played very good defense at third base so way to get your facts straight. And who in the world would offer LaRoche 40-50 million? I mean Im sure Dayton Moore wants to but the Royals have to cut him off from former Braves at some point

by McCann's the Man on Aug 26, 2009 7:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Glaus led the league in errors by a third basement twice in his career. He didn’t play at all this season and he is three years older than LaRoche. If we got the guy for $2-$4 million for a year then maybe I’d be interested but other than that I would prefer LaRoche.

by KC Ryan on Aug 26, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Plus with Glaus the elephant in the room is the PEDs.

by Yakker on Aug 26, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

is that a bad thing that he took them in the past… or that he doesnt take them anymore?

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Aug 28, 2009 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Glaus has also consistently produced plus UZR numbers, errors are a terrible measure of a player’s defensive value. And the whole point of Glaus is that it would be only a one year deal at a low base salary

by McCann's the Man on Aug 26, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

errors are only bad for making a case that a player is a good fielder, not neccesarily a bad one

by cirela20 on Aug 27, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

McCann's the Man...

you just lost alot of props when you said that Troy “i’m a poster boy for juicing” Glaus is a better hitter than BOTH Holliday and Bay.

by apoxonbothyourhouses on Aug 27, 2009 8:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

I looked up the stats and I did embellish a tad, but Glaus does have a huge positional advantage. It’s also hard to gauge Holliday’s true talent level since he played in Colorado so long and his numbers have been helped tremendously by an insane stretch of good hitting with the cards. Bay is also wildly inconsistent , Glaus has been fairly inconsistent as well though. I would still argue that he is comparable and will come at a fraction of the price. So for the money, Glaus if healthy will be the best value as a hitter

by McCann's the Man on Aug 27, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

your criticism of his fielding is a little harsh though

and if you look at the progression he’s made as a fielder he doesn’t really fit the “all bat no glove” mold anymore, in ’08 he played over 1,200 innings at 3rd with only 7 errors, even if you make a case about his diminished range those numbers show at least above average and probably good hands.

also he has played 1st before, of course not long enough to log a real sample size, but it at least tells you that he’s trained over there and has willingness to learn other positions, hell he even logged 55 innings at SS as recently as ’06, he is by no means and Adam Dunn type glove

all this said if we can get LaRoche for 2 years the Braves will jump all over it anyway

by cirela20 on Aug 27, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

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