Chipper: waiting to call up Hanson hurt team
by fandave on Aug 22, 2009 9:36 AM EDT
108 comments
Trolling around the tubes this morning, I happened across this August 20th article from the Gwinnett Daily Post wherein our team leader, Chipper Jones, makes known his views on Tommy Hanson being held down on the farm for too long.
If this was covered here before, I missed it.
Among the many things about Chipper that I love is he is not shy about making his opinions known and when he weighs in, his burning desire for the team to win rings out, loud and clear.
Quotes from Chip over the hump ...
"We'd have four or five more wins if he'd been here all year."
"It wasn't my decision to make, but I would have loved to have had him up here earlier," Jones said. "It would have made a big difference. I think he was ready right out of spring training."
"I don't know what the reasoning was," Jones said, responding to a question. "I don't know if it was money related or not. Maybe it was just to get him a little more experience. All I know is that our record would be a lot better if he'd been here from the start.
"You could see in spring training that he had the stuff to get major leaguers out. I just pray to God that he stays healthy and has a long, illustrious career. I think he will."
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I also have to say that I agree with Chipper
Frank Wren has made some great moves, but the decision-making with regard to Tommy Hanson was decidely ungreat.
by fandave on Aug 22, 2009 9:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If Chipper would get out of this funk we might have a few more wins too.
"Ohhhh Shit."-Bobby Cox, 3/28/09
by 10-4 on Aug 22, 2009 10:17 AM EDT reply actions 11 recs
you da man 10-4. maybe we should send CHipper a letter with that quote in it.
7/24/2009 - "The Phillies are too far ahead in the NL East for the Braves to make a run." - Buster Olney
REMEMBER THAT BOYS.
by mvhsbball on Aug 22, 2009 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A man walks into a meat shoppe and goes to the counter. The cashier asks, "Thinking about buying some meat?". The man replied, "No, I'm going to buy meat, I was thinking about punanny."
by bwellnjonesco on Aug 22, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's creepy
Self-proclaimed president of the Pat White and Brian Hartline fan club.
by samdaman on Aug 23, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
With Hanson, I think we might have the best rotation in baseball.
by JurrjensFan on Aug 22, 2009 10:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I tend to agree with Chipper, but there’s no reason to sulk about it now. We are firmly in the playoff race. Instead of looking back at where we could have had a few more wins, let’s look forward and get those wins
by eaheckman10 on Aug 22, 2009 10:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There’s no way to prove that he didn’t need those two months in AAA to be able to be so good in the Majors. Sometimes Chipper needs to be quiet, cause he doesn’t really know what he’s talking about.
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Aug 22, 2009 10:35 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
he doesn’t really know what he’s talking about.
Just wow, cb.
If our 1st ballot HOFer doesn’t have standing to express an opinion, I guess any critical comment by any athlete in the world is out of line.
by fandave on Aug 22, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he has the standing to express his opinion
but that doesnt mean it’s right. He might also want to rethink publicly calling out his boss…I mean, sometimes it’s ok, but this seems like an odd time to talk about frank making a mistake
by Doghnut on Aug 22, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look at McCann’s the Man’s comment below:
Where’s the guarantee that Hanson pitches like he has this season those first two months?
That’s exactly my point. There’s no evidence that Hanson didn’t need those two months.
Chipper can say whatever he wants, but maybe sometimes he shouldn’t.
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Aug 22, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I disagree.
The evidence is the way he has pitched, in the fall league, in spring training, in the International League and in the National League once he finally was promoted (exclusive of his 1st start).
He was ready. It seemed obvious to me, not that I am necessarily much of an expert. But Chipper is very obviously an expert.
by fandave on Aug 22, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
First Chipper isn’t really an expert, and second, I don’t remember Hanson seeming ready during spring training. He had great velocity, but his control seemed a little questionable.
by acie4mvp on Aug 23, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
mostly because I remember his first few AAA starts and he wasn’t going past the 5th inning because his pitch count was extremely high.
I’m not trying to put words in Chippers mouth, but was he for not signing Glavine/releasing him when he first went down?
by penno on Aug 22, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That Lenny Dykstra quote
Chipper Jones is not human. I think he’s been created by Ted Turner and some scientists
Since Turner designed Chipper, it’s no wonder he’s a bit outspoken.
Mat Gamel is way too cool for double consonants.
by VivaLosBravos on Aug 22, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe if Chipper would start hitting the damn ball again we’d have more wins. We won 3-4 in LA without him.
by GoBravesNC on Aug 22, 2009 10:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
amen...
the guy’s the heart and soul of our franchise, but perhaps he needs to let someone else take up that mantle.
jesus, i can’t wait for Hanley to become a free agent. I say we give him a BUTT load of money and tell Escobar to move to 3B.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Aug 22, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No way Yunel moves to 3B
First of all, I would LOVE to see Hanley in ATL, but if he were to come here, he would be the one moving to third, not Yunel.
SubParr
by nick9314 on Aug 22, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you put any stock into uzr/150, hanley has been better defensively this year. Not sure how much i trust escobar’s reading though but he would profile to third base extremely well with his arm strength
by McCann's the Man on Aug 22, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See i dont get this damn UZR stuff. Hanley Ramirez has been WIDELY considered a bad defensive SS for awhile now and there have been reports that maybe the Marlins were thinkin to move him to CF because of that. And Escobar has been considered a very good defensive SS and now a bad defensive SS in Ramirez is haven a better defensive season according to UZR than a good defensive SS in Escobar. I never fully understood this UZR but now more than ever i will never put ANY stock into UZR ever again. Not like i put much stock in it before but anybody ever brings it up as an argument i will just ignore it.
Now Escobar would prolly be a very good 3B defensively as well, looks like he is gettin more buff and he has a top arm so yeah im sure he would fit great as a 3B as well.
braves#1
by rockybull on Aug 22, 2009 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i will echo the comments of many others… its unfair to discredit UZR, when u openly admit that you don’t understand the metric…. that said, I agree with you that it often seems inconsistent…..but that doesn’t mean it is wrong…(or maybe it does… we really don’t know)…
Anyone who uses UZR as their sole means of quantifying defense is ignorant… but it is a valuable tool if for nothing else that is gives us a quantifiable number to look at and discuss. I still maintain scouting reports in terms of defense are the most valuable thing that can be used, but when those aren’t available we have to use a multitude of imperfect tools (i.e. UZR, Dewan’s +/- system, first hand accounts… whatever else we can find)
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Aug 22, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hanley has actually taken a huge step forward this year and is no longer a minus in the field. I think Yunel is a guy that just might be a uzr anomaly, but to discredit the system is ignorant
by McCann's the Man on Aug 22, 2009 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Come on
Jason Kubel has a higher OPS this year than A-Rod. Everyone knows Rodriguez is a better hitter, but we don’t throw OPS out the window because over one individual season exposed imperfections in the metric.
Mat Gamel is way too cool for double consonants.
by VivaLosBravos on Aug 23, 2009 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This
I’m officially tired of having to explain advanced defensive metrics to people. People can believe what they want to believe.
If you honestly think your limited visual observations somehow are more meaningful than fielding metrics like UZR and +/-, then fine. You’re completely wrong, but fine.
by Yakker on Aug 23, 2009 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha i know, i find it amazing when people say that uzr can’t hold value because from what they’ve seen their opinion contradicts the stat. I do think Yunel is an anomaly because other metrics and advanced scouting reports suggest he’s an excellent defender. However 75-85% of the time UZR/150 will give you a pretty acccurate read on a guy. For example KJ has become an average defender yet people insist that he’s still terrible in the field because he didn’t make such and such play the other night
by McCann's the Man on Aug 23, 2009 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
McCann’s the Man, usually when someone is an anomaly in that system then its a very good chance it has its flaws then.
braves#1
by rockybull on Aug 23, 2009 2:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
when one guy is an anomaly it means the entire system needs to be thrown out? Every system/stat has flaws it’s just defensive metrics have more issues than offensive ones. However i challenge you to find another system with a higher correlation to runs saved/prevented. Hint, you won’t. Your opinion, scouting reports, errors all don’t hold a candle to uzr
by McCann's the Man on Aug 23, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Every system/stat has flaws it’s just defensive metrics have more issues than offensive ones.”
I think defensive metrics have much much more issues than offensive ones thats why i have a big problem with it. With what you just said, its just some people on here uses that stat and makes it out to bein the be all end all on here and uses that argument to help their argument out. And they act like they know more than you because they bring up the UZR and doesn’t care to look at more than that.
braves#1
by rockybull on Aug 23, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
75-85%
is pretty bad, no?
I probably shouldnt wade into this discussion — I dont have much of an opinion either way on such statistics. But if you know that a stat is wrong 15-25% of the time…I mean, logically, that just seems awful.
by Doghnut on Aug 23, 2009 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, but the people that are in love with UZR just dont care and will tell you that you are flat out wrong. Its been said.
braves#1
by rockybull on Aug 23, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ad hoc visual observation by non-scouts has a far, far lower accuracy level than any fielding metric.
As usual, Joe Posnanski probably said it best:
You probably remember Bill James famous point that the difference between a .275 hitter and a .300 hitter over 600 at-bats is 15 hits a year. That’s about 2.5 hits per month over a full baseball season. That’s about one extra hit every 10 or 11 games. Bill asks: Would you notice that?
It’s easy to say you would … but you probably wouldn’t. Or anyway, I wouldn’t. First off, to notice it you would pretty much have to watch EVERY SINGLE GAME because if you watched only, say, 125 games, there’s a chance you would see the .275 hitter have more hits than the .300 hitter. You would also have to watch every inning of every game because some of those extra hits might actually come when you’re off mowing the lawn or shopping for razors or flipping channels to see who is winning the golf tournament.
And even then — even if you watched every inning of every game and were paying close attention, I would suggest you STILL would not be able to tell the difference because the .275 hitter might hit with more power. He might have a sweeter looking swing. He might get a few of his hits in clutch situations that burn in the memory. Seems to me that we often talk about how baseball is a long season, but we don’t always consider what that means. It means that in baseball we enjoy the moments, and we’re swayed by the moments, and we long for the moments. But context? We get our context from the numbers. It’s simply too long a season to process.
Now, all that revolves around something really simple — batting average. Hits divided by at-bats. Simple and stark stuff — there are few vagaries or complexities in those numbers (OK, yes, there are a couple of complexities — errors, sacrifices, walks and so on, but generally speaking it’s pretty simple). But defense is much, much more complex. A defensive play involves a thousand tiny pieces — positioning, pre-pitch reaction, post-pitch reaction, speed of the ball, spin on the ball, situation on the field, quality of the field, luck of the bounce, brightness of the sun, glare of the lights, ability of teammates, speed of the runner, sound of the ball hitting bat and a bunch of other stuff.
Full post, in all its brilliance, here:
http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/07/31/yuni-watch-731/#more-2442
by Yakker on Aug 23, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Rec'd
the sh*t out of it
Mat Gamel is way too cool for double consonants.
by VivaLosBravos on Aug 23, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yakker, see this is my beef with this is your mainly using UZR to prove a point when arguin about defense but it is terribly inconsistent in my view, i cannot trust that. Maybe i went too far sayin i wont even listen if someone mentions it BUT its just very inconsistent in my opinion to go by it, maybe im very wrong and if so well its not like its the first time that i have ever been wrong before. But im still gonna stand by not fallin in love with the UZR system. If others on here wants to use that system for every argument then fine, im just not gonna do that, but thats just me.
braves#1
by rockybull on Aug 23, 2009 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Aug 23, 2009 2:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
because it vacillates between seasons in a few examples?
please find me a stat that doesn’t.
Mat Gamel is way too cool for double consonants.
by VivaLosBravos on Aug 23, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
viva, find me an offensive stat that is as inconsistent as UZR is. Not sayin offensive stats are perfect by any means but i look at them a hell of alot more than defensive stats and they aren’t near as inconsistent as the defensive stats are namely UZR.
braves#1
by rockybull on Aug 23, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's your favorite stat?
batting average? Why is Asdrubal Cabrera hitting 54 points higher this season? Why has Grady Sizemore’s steadily declined each year since his first full season? How does Milton Bradley’s go from the 6th best in baseball in 2008 to the 18th worst one sesason later? Is that a consistent stat? Doesn’t look like it to me.
Are you an OPS guy? How do you explain JJ Hardy’s decline from .821 last year to .667 in ‘09? That’s the difference between very good and replacement level. Has his talent level dropped that precipitously over the course of one season? Doubt it.
Everyone believes in homeruns, right? How do you explain Dexter Fowler hitting two in the first week of the season, and only two more since? I guess you think homers are an inadequate measure of a player’s power hitting ability? They must be! How else would you explain David Wrights homerun totals reading: 27,26,30,33,8 ?
incredulous of UZR spikes in random seasons? How is that any different from Justin Verlander’s ‘07-’09 ERAs (3.66, 4.84, 3.29)?
The point is that sometimes a bad fielder will have a good season with the glove and vice versa, and sometimes a bad fielder will have a bad season with the glove and still have a good UZR, because that’s just the way statistics work, but seriously, you need to pull your head out of your ass if you think it’s the only one.
Mat Gamel is way too cool for double consonants.
by VivaLosBravos on Aug 23, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
How can i even begin to respond to this? Wow what a ridiculous post but whatever lol.
First off Cabrera is havin a better offensive season this year so thats that reason, lol. Bradley havin an awful season lol.
J.J. Hardy is havin an incredibly awful year. Yes his talent level HAS dropped off that much he has been awful with the bat so that should be expected. Sure he could have a bounceback season next year but this year he is dreadedly awful with the stick.
Dont be puttin words in my mouth about the homers. And about Wright well Wright is hittin better with the AVG, and OBP and sacrificing some of his power numbers because of that. And plus it doesn’t help that he plays half his games in a monster park.
Thing is i haven’t seen any indication of Escobar gettin worst defensively man thats the WHOLE part of this. Offensively you can tell how well a guy is doin for the most part with the bat but Escobar looks as good or better than he has since he made it to the majors defensively. Im sure if he was actually gettin a good bit worst defensively like UZR is indicating im pretty sure you could at least tell somewhat by your own eyes and as far as i know nobody can see that. And if he was then there you go UZR is lookin like a fantastic defensive stat that should be counted on big time. Sure i obviously know that sometimes guys will get better with the glove and then have a better season and stuff like that and sometimes some guys have off years with the leather i know this dont think i dont know it cause i do but Escobar has looked as good as ever at SS. Say what you want and try to manipulate the offensive stats all you like but thing is UZR is much more inconsistent than those offensive stats that you tried to manipulate which failed btw.
braves#1
by rockybull on Aug 23, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't call my comment ridiculous unless you read it, please.
You dismiss all of my examples by saying that the guys who are doing better magically became better at baseball and the guys who are doing worse transformed into terrible players. Bullshit.
I don’t need you to tell me that Hardy and Milton are having bad years statistically, I already know that. Everyone knows that. But if you think that their seasons had nothing to do with BAbip regression of .048 and .092 points respectively, you’re just not thinking. What’s most likely is that their luck of last year was unsustainable and that this year’s bad luck is as well. Are they worse at hitting now than they were a few months ago? I haven’t seen all of their PAs, so I don’t know, but I highly doubt that there has been a skill deterioration commensurate to their statistical fall-offs.
Your point that Hardy could “bounce back” next year proves that you have no clue what I’m talking about. A season is a sample. It’s not enough time for offensive stats to stabilize. If a player’s UZR fluctuates from year to year the appropriate response, as with any other statistic, is to ignore the numbers for each individual season and consider only the largest sample i.e. the career.
I never said YEScobar’s UZR was an accurate evaluation of his defensive performance this year. It’s probably not. But you don’t know, and I don’t know, because neither one of us has chronicled each of his defensive chances in our heads, have we? So, like I said earlier, Escobar could be a good defender having a bad year with the glove, or he could be a good defender having a good year with the glove who happens to have a bad UZR. That’s not reason enough to swear off defensive metrics.
Mat Gamel is way too cool for double consonants.
by VivaLosBravos on Aug 23, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No i read your entire post ok. I never respond to a post having half way read it i dont do that cause its very ignorant to do a thing like that. If you dont think i understood what you are talkin about then fine, but i understood perfectly.
braves#1
by rockybull on Aug 23, 2009 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you remember when everybody was hating on Yunel cause of some really bone headed plays?
by acie4mvp on Aug 23, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just because a player makes a bone head play or a few of them doesn’t make the player a bad defender.
braves#1
by rockybull on Aug 23, 2009 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As far as batting average goes, that is a huge fluctuation dependent on BABIP which is basically out of the hitter’s hands. Though most guys do level off in both categories, batting average can be a terribly inconsistent stat. David Wright for example has a BABIP around .400 this year iirc so his BA and OBP are a mirage of sorts. HR’s are greatly influenced by home ballpark, just look at Johnny Damon. RBI’s are way more inconsistent that uzr as well imo because it depends on the lineup you hit in (aka opportunities) and not your true talent level. So while uzr is not always consistent at least it only accounts for what a player can control unlike multiple offensive stats and that’s why i hold uzr as a valuable stat. The end all be all of a defensive player’s worth? Hardly but it’s just like offense, you don’t look at one stat to judge a player
by McCann's the Man on Aug 23, 2009 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
your right about BA, if you have a very unlucky BABIP then your gonna have a low BA but if you are extremely lucky then your gonna have a high BA or at least a great chance at one. I still dont know if i would call it real inconsistent cause a player makes their own luck, sure a player could get unlucky alot but in the case of KJ he has been unlucky for not just 1 year so its kind of irritating to hear it over and over that he is a good player but unlucky well so what if he is unlucky when he is unlucky he is dreadedly bad(NOT WANTIN TO GET IN A KJ ARGUMENT JUST USED THE EXAMPLE LOL). Right about RBI’s, depends on the lineup your hittin in which to me makes a difference obviously if your hittin 3rd or 4th you have a greater chance of gettin more RBI’s than battin 8th. And you have a greater chance of gettin more RBI opportunities battin 3rd or 4th in the Yankees lineup than the Pirates lineup.
Problem with UZR is even as good as Hanley improved this year i just dont see him improvin enough to be a better defender in one season over Escobar i just dont see that. IF im wrong then fine.
Im done with the UZR argument, like i said earlier maybe i overreacted sayin i will not listen at all to UZR but i still dont trust this system with defense to be honest with you. But hey im not a defensive metric kind of person so yeah obviously im not gonna care alot for it but thats just me. This is like the KJ and Prado argument im just not gonna really chime in with none of this cause no matter how hard i argue or you argue or anyone else argues neither of us are gonna change either of us opinions for the most part, not because i wont listen or you wont listen just this is what we believe. I guess if Adam Dunn ever had a really really good UZR in LF then i guess the UZR will be completely worthless if that ever happens ;)
braves#1
by rockybull on Aug 23, 2009 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Once again highest correlation to runs prevented by a defender, thereby making it the best indicator of a player’s defensive value. Does that mean we treat it like scripture? Of course not but it’s far more valuable than any other measure of defensive value you’ve presented ie opinions and visual observations
by McCann's the Man on Aug 23, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
can you source that?
about run correlation? I’d be interested to see it.
Mat Gamel is way too cool for double consonants.
by VivaLosBravos on Aug 23, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/8/5/977985/graph-of-the-day-uzrs-error
It’s only the error component of uzr vs actual errors but it still shows that uzr is the better metric and has a good, albeit not great, correlation.
by McCann's the Man on Aug 23, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fine
But im still gonna stand by not fallin in love with the UZR system. If others on here wants to use that system for every argument then fine, im just not gonna do that, but thats just me.
Live your life, rockybull.
Look, Joe Morgan still thinks “clutch hitting” and “productive outs” are the foundation of baseball, so the fact that folks choose their own biased visual observation over factual evidence is hardly baseball’s biggest problem.
by Yakker on Aug 23, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where’s the guarantee that Hanson pitches like he has this season those first two months? Fact is he really needed to work on his change, it was a bad pitch and at least now it’s league average. Waiting on Jordan Schafer and Jeff Francoeur is what hurt the team not the guys we threw out in the 5 spot before Hanson. I also don’t get why you all are ripping on Chipper, yeah he hasn’t been great but it’s not like he’s been our problem this year
by McCann's the Man on Aug 22, 2009 10:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The change
If he was only in Gwinnett to work on the change, we should have left him down for a few more months.
Mat Gamel is way too cool for double consonants.
by VivaLosBravos on Aug 22, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Last time I looked, guarantees in life, in sports, in anything are few and far in between.
I personally tend to think in terms of probabilities and agree with Chipper on this issue.
Many here weighed in on this, pre-season, during spring training and more or less right up to the day Wren finally made the call. I know I did.
But the point of this post is that it seems pretty significant when the most illustrious player in the organization makes such bold public comments. In other words, it seems he feels pretty damn strongly about it.
by fandave on Aug 22, 2009 11:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He also felt that Francoeur had turned his career around this past offseason and would return to his earlier days with the braves and put up those numbers. Chipper deserves to express his opinion but let’s not hold it as the truth in every scenario. Just look at what happened when Hanson came up from AAA, he had a rough first 3 starts iirc, if you take away his partial season in gwinnett i think he struggles in his first 5-7 starts and then where’s the benefit of having him being up early? I’ll take the extra season of team control over possibly 1-2 wins
by McCann's the Man on Aug 22, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
team control=good point
Mat Gamel is way too cool for double consonants.
by VivaLosBravos on Aug 22, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am surprised that Chipper would say this – especially considering that our pitching has not been costing us wins this season, but rather the team’s (and more specifically, CHIPPER’S) lack of hitting.
I also find it hard to believe that Hanson would have netted us 5 more wins. Medlen pitched well, and it isn’t like JoJo was getting blown out every game either.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Aug 22, 2009 11:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Chipper’s lack of hitting? seriously? The problem was CF and RF
by McCann's the Man on Aug 22, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, back in May and June. This is August.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Aug 22, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yet the whole point of this discussion is early season moves, a la bringing up Hanson in April.
by McCann's the Man on Aug 22, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my point is chipper needs to stop worrying about 5 wins that we should have had in April and start worrying about several wins we should have had in July and August.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Aug 22, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
You know whats funny is that if our OFFENSE had hit more we would have more than just 5 more wins. Its not just good pitchers either we were freakin shut down by Livan Hernandez . . . SERIOUSLY???
Chipper needs to own up to the fact that this offense has under performed and we would have a lot more wins had they played up to they ability.
He also should talk about why when we are down 5-3 in the 9th inning of a game against a pitcher with a ERA over 4 that he swung weakly at the FIRST PITCH, then basically jogged to the club house.
by drumzalicious on Aug 22, 2009 12:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Livan has been known to have our number since birth.
by BravesfaninMontana on Aug 23, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s take a look at where the Braves rank in offense out of the #3 spot:
13th in Runs
16th in RBIs
15th in OPS
12th in BA
12th in HR
12th in SB
Defense is just as ugly – 2nd worst in the NL at the hot corner
Now, I don’t know the numbers for the 5th spot in the rotation – but the Braves are 12-10 in those games and the starting pitchers have around a 4.00 ERA in 120 innings pitched. I doubt many teams can say they have had better production out of the fifth spot in the rotation.
So basically the Braves are the second worst team batting from the #3 hole and the second worst team fielding at third base this entire year but Mr. $13 million thinks the fact that we ran JoJo and Medlen out there for a few starts is why we have an underacheiving record?
by DCP916 on Aug 22, 2009 12:16 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Even Babe Ruth had a bad year.
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Aug 22, 2009 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would Chipper rather have 2 more wins this year, or risk Hanson being so expensive in that extra arbitration year he would’ve earned by being called up early that Wren would have to trade him? My personal opinion is that I’d like Hanson around as long as possible and I’ll take 15 wins over the upcoming seasons we control him over the 2 or 3 we possibly could’ve had by calling Hanson up early.
Here’s the thing: he wasn’t called up and we’re still in (at least) the wild card race and maybe an outside shot at the division title. Starting pitching was never the problem.
by beeswax on Aug 22, 2009 12:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Chipper's just wrong about this one.
http://www.capitolavenueclub.com/
by PWHjort on Aug 22, 2009 2:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good pitching does not necessarily = winning
Just ask Javy. Or Jair. We’d have 4 or 5 more wins, and two pitchers on the All-Star team, if these guys would have gotten some run support this season…
by tchoup on Aug 22, 2009 2:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And Javy would be a contender for the cy young.
by beeswax on Aug 22, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think anyone is a contender for the Cy Young
until the SF freak retires. in 30 years.
Mat Gamel is way too cool for double consonants.
by VivaLosBravos on Aug 22, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wainwright and Carpenter are in the discussion.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Aug 22, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ya
but neither has a shot to win it unless he falls apart.
Mat Gamel is way too cool for double consonants.
by VivaLosBravos on Aug 22, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lincecum’s FIP is under 2, the man is a machine and if he doesn’t win or if even loses one vote then the process is f’ed up
by McCann's the Man on Aug 22, 2009 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DFA CHIPPER!
Well, jk, but seriously, Chipper needs to start hitting if we’re going to win.
And i really think Tommy learned a ton in AAA. Supposedly he really worked on his changeup, which could really work for him in the future if he sticks with it. It also got him a few more innings under his belt again the weaker competition.
7/24/2009 - "The Phillies are too far ahead in the NL East for the Braves to make a run." - Buster Olney
REMEMBER THAT BOYS.
by mvhsbball on Aug 22, 2009 5:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Jeez Chipper
If my memory serves me well, we could have won a few more games if you hadn’t made some stupid errors at third, and had not left RISP on several occasions that could have won us the game!
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by HEYJUDE on Aug 22, 2009 6:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
just for the record
Chipper’s 2009 RISP OPS= 1.120… :)
Mat Gamel is way too cool for double consonants.
by VivaLosBravos on Aug 23, 2009 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no she’s right Pujols has a 1.275 OPS…so CHipper does blow
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Aug 23, 2009 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No where have I ever said “Chipper blows” you must be speaking from your own experience! lol
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by HEYJUDE on Aug 24, 2009 4:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i am taking this light heartedly and mean no disrespect… that said… thats somehting that wouldnt be a bad thing to know from experience… it might be a lil gay… but its a great story nonetheless
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Aug 24, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hahahaha…
“I got blown by Chipper Jones”
Yeah. Awesome story!
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Aug 24, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Aug 24, 2009 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In my opinion
The thing is that his losses haven’t seemed to bother him at all. He really seems to be ultra composed. So what was Frank worried about? Was he worried that Tommy would get shelled in the first two months? I doubt that. I think if he were up for the first two months he would have already supplanted D lowe and we’d have a stronger front three in the rotation.
As far as chipper goes. I think it may be time to protect someone with Chipper rather than him holding down the 3 spot. He’s not going to hit .300 this year and probably won’t hit 20 HR’s. If nothing else maybe it would send a message, and light a spark under his ass.
by BravesfaninMontana on Aug 22, 2009 6:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not hit 20? He’s already at 15 and all he needs is a little 2 week stretch in september where he starts hitting the ball and he’ll get there. I’d say there’s a decent chance he doesn’t get 20 but probably?
by McCann's the Man on Aug 22, 2009 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d go 55/45 pro at this point. It’ll be close.
Mat Gamel is way too cool for double consonants.
by VivaLosBravos on Aug 23, 2009 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we still have 39 games to go, so one homer every 7 games (gives him 4 days off for rest/injury). Seems doable to me
by McCann's the Man on Aug 23, 2009 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s doable, but considering he hasn’t done anything like that pace all year, it doesn’t seem very likely.
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Aug 23, 2009 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m pretty good at 4th grade level math and Chipper is exactly on pace for 20 homeruns. So far, he has 15 HRs in 108 games total, only 100 of which he started, and 371 ABs. So, he has averaged one HR per 6.66 game started and per 24.7 ABs. If he maintains these averages (i.e., pace), he will reach 20 HRs in his 34th game started of the 39 games remaining and/or his 124th AB.
by fandave on Aug 23, 2009 6:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s what I get for chiming in one something at 2am without doing the math…
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Aug 23, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh absolutely, it was just really funny to me how you broke it down. I felt dumb for not even bothering to figure it out. Well played.
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Aug 24, 2009 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see Chipper's point, but...
I think we were more hurt by KK. Before you jump on me (cough, justin) hear me out. I like KK as much as the next person, but we all know that in his first four starts he was flat out bad (http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/individual_player_gamebygamelog.jsp?c_id=atl&playerID=499877&statType=2, by the way look at August- very nice). I think that those four or five wins that Chipper was talking about would’ve come if KK had adjusted to the majors more quickly. Now, granted that the transition is probably hard to come to the MLB from Japan, so I’m not jumping on KK for not making an instant transition, I just think that that is more of a reason to pinpoint. Either way, we are still in a playoff race (multiple ones?) and we can’t worry about how the past has hurt us, we just have to go out and win games, because if we dwell on the past, we have no shot at the future
Yunel is the Queen of Hearts
by GoBravesNY on Aug 23, 2009 10:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I see two bad starts in his first 4 games…
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Aug 23, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok fine, the first and the third weren’t bad, they were average. My thought was, we could find other reasons on why we don’t have those four or five wins that he was talking about. KK just happened to be the first thing that came to mind because he did have (up until Lowe’s 8 run inning) probably the worst start we’ve had all year. Actually, now that i think of it, our inept offense from June was probably more to blame for not having wins
Yunel is the Queen of Hearts
by GoBravesNY on Aug 23, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there ya go.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Aug 24, 2009 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Funny thing is, Chipper is still arguably our most consistent bat. Whether he driving in runs or not, he still sees the base paths more than anyone on this squad.
by aRC on Aug 24, 2009 11:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Surprisingly, this is an accurate statement.
Chipper, even with his recent struggles, is getting on base at a .404 clip. Next is Matty D at .377 and then Yunel with a .370 average.
*This is players with at least 200 ABs. Omar is actuall second, but only has 117 ABs. For those interested, his OBP is .388
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Aug 24, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think the problem is Chipper set a ridiculous bar last year with his 470 OBP or whatever it was (too lazy to look it up)… EVen though people said, they didnt expect him to do it again, they kinda did… Chipper’s nbrs are drastically down from last year so he must be having a bad year… Which obviously isnt the case… he is having a good season, its just not as good as last year… and its slightly below his career avgs (which they should be considering he is 37)
I also, think he poor fielding this year has something to do with hating on Chipper. He has been atrocious in the field.. no matter how you want to look at it.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Aug 24, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Surprisingly, this is an accurate statement.
ooo and this is extermely condescending ya jerk
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Aug 24, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that’s it. You are off my Christmas card list!
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Aug 24, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
im sorry man… ?HUG?
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Aug 24, 2009 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i s’pose.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Aug 24, 2009 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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