Rules question
by coldriver10 on Aug 11, 2009 10:41 PM EDT
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PrintI saw in a game one time where on a sac fly, the left fielder bobbled the ball before he caught it. The runner at 3rd took off when the ball first hit his glove, thus leaving too early and he was called out on an appeal.
My question is, why don't LFers do this on purpose? It seems like it would be pretty easy to purposely bobble the ball, and a guy is always going to run when it first hits the glove. Is there a rule against this?
These are the things I think about when I can't fall asleep. Well, some of the things...
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doesnt seem like it would be easy to bobble...
tho if you practiced it, maybe so…still, eventually runners would catch on anyway
its one of the things that are frowned upon…
For example… with a runner on first and a ball hit to the SS, a line drive that could be caught but is low. Its better to let it drop and try to turn 2…. Escobar has done it before…. However, in most baseball circles it is frowned upon as “bush-league”… The same can be said of A-rod’s little slap back a couple years ago when he tried to slap the ball out of the pitchers glvoe while runnin to first. Or clapping as run past an IF on an infield fly ball. and Id have to agree….
I would sya this scenario you are presenting is similar. It would be considered bush league to do… THey are all things that could help you win a game… but you’re gonna earn a bad reputation amongst the other teams… I dont know if its worth it or not… plus u run a risk if u try to bobble it and u end up dropping it… the run will score and u wont get the easy out… and that could lead to more runs…All in all I dont think its worth the risk
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
"It's one of those things thats frowned upon..."
“Like jerking off on an air plane.
Thanks Bin Laden!”
-Allen, The Hangover.
SubParr
by nick9314 on Aug 12, 2009 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Classic.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Aug 12, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Don't know?
I don’t know if it is a rule, but I have seen games before when umpires have overturned double plays on line drives to infielders that were dropped on purpose. I don’t know that I have seen it at a major league game, but I have at a minor league game, and happened to our team in college.
I've heard of that happening too...
Although I’ve never seen it personally.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Aug 13, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I love this stuff. Got any more examples?
If Dunn walks 30 fewer times, he'll drive in 15 more runs. This is thanks to the scientifically proven formula: RBI = (this is nonsense) (I made it all up).
Here's a stat: Wins as manager: Dusty Baker, 1,162; Bill James, 0.
by TradeAndruw on Aug 12, 2009 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
The baserunner screaming "got it" on a pop-up?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Aug 13, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Was this a major league game? I’m 99% sure that the runner can go the second the fielder touches the ball which protects the runner in a bobble situation like that.
no he can’t, the out has to be made for the runner to tag and you have to possess the ball to get an out. I’ve thought about this before but i agree with swo12bv and i’m sure mlb would step in to correct the situation but bobbling a catch but not dropping it is a fairly easy thing to do
by McCann's the Man on Aug 11, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
The rule is being misinterpreted here. A runner does not have to wait until the ball is caught to leave the base on tag situation. The runner can legally leave the base once the ball is touched by an outfielder. This is a rule that is misinterpreted by a lot of umpires. The ball can be juggled all day by an outfielder and it doesn’t have any impact on when the runner can leave the base. Once it is touched he can advance and if it is subsequently caught by the outfielder the runner is not subject to being called out on an appeal.
Mountngrown is right.
As soon as it is touched, the runner can leave. And Coldriver, you sound like me. I wonder crazy things all the time. Like, is there only certain areas feilders can play? Can you get a second basemen or someone else to cross infront of the mound after the pitch is made to distract the hitter. If you are tagging to go home on a fly ball to the outfield, can you back farther up the baseline and get a running start as long as you tag as or after the ball has been caught?
Rule 7.08(d)
seems to imply it needs to be be caught. I couldnt find a more relevant rule stating it starts when the ball is simply touched. Not sure if anyone else can…
I agree with this. I just read most of Section 7, and could find nothing about a fielder touching the ball. The rules states “Catch”.
Now, maybe the definition of “catch” is located somewhere else?
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Aug 12, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/definition_terms_2.jsp
This gives a little more depth on rules. I am guessing it is official.
The reason the word “catch” is used in the rule is because without a catch there is no need to return to the base to tag. There has to be a catch for the “re-touch” situation to be in effect but the runner is entitled to leave the base after the “re-touch” once the ball has been touched by a defensive player.
A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball. A fielder may reach over a fence, railing, rope or other line of demarcation to make a catch. He may jump on top of a railing, or canvas that may be in foul ground. No interference should be allowed when a fielder reaches over a fence, railing, rope or into a stand to catch a ball. He does so at his own risk.
If a fielder, attempting a catch at the edge of the dugout, is ?held up? and kept from an apparent fall by a player or players of either team and the catch is made, it shall be allowed.
Okay, here are my two scenarios I think about like these.
1. Intentionally swinging at a wild pitch for the third strike and then running to first.
2. Intentionally kicking the ball between first and second to prevent a double play.
I’m guessing #2 has a rule against it, but #1 seems workable.
Right, but then the ball is dead, so the batter would be awarded 1B essentially preventing a double play.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Aug 12, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
If the ball is between first and second
and is close enough to the runner that he can kick it, a double play is probably anything but assured. Maybe if there’s an extreme shift on where the second baseman is playing deep in the hole.
Odds are, though, runner still has a chance to break up the double play by taking out the shortstop.
Agreed. But in a hit and run situation, or if for some reason, the IF is not at DP depth, it is feasible.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Aug 12, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Rule 7.08(i)
After he has acquired legal possession of a base, he runs the bases in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game. The umpire shall immediately call "Time" and declare the runner out;
I like this one. MLB implemented it because of this guy:
Jimmy Piersall. Of course, he was a Muts player…
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Aug 12, 2009 11:26 AM EDT reply actions
"making a travesty of the game"
Francouer should be banned from the league for this offense.
If Dunn walks 30 fewer times, he'll drive in 15 more runs. This is thanks to the scientifically proven formula: RBI = (this is nonsense) (I made it all up).
Here's a stat: Wins as manager: Dusty Baker, 1,162; Bill James, 0.
by TradeAndruw on Aug 12, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
BAZING!
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Aug 12, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Haa...
He apparently also ran back and forth in the outfield while Ted Williams was at bat to distract him.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Aug 13, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
In football during a goal line situation, can the offense have a tiny guy receive the snap, and then a big guy tosses him over the defense into the end zone?
Also, in hockey, can a really obese guy be the goalie and block the entire net?
If Dunn walks 30 fewer times, he'll drive in 15 more runs. This is thanks to the scientifically proven formula: RBI = (this is nonsense) (I made it all up).
Here's a stat: Wins as manager: Dusty Baker, 1,162; Bill James, 0.
I don’t see why not…linemen push RBs all the time, and in hockey, I don’t think that there are any weight/height restrictions.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Aug 12, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually
That’s illegal. It’s called “Helping the runner.”
That famous clip of Matt Leinart shoving Reggie Bush through the hole into the end zone-that’s “helping the runner.”
The only time you’ll see something like this if the runner is still on his feet, his forward momentum hasn’t ceased, and he’s being stacked up by multiple bodies. Blockers then sometimes incidentally “help” the runner by crashing into the scrum, but as long as they’re making legal blocks, that usually is not called.
Yes.
It is a penalty, but it’s never called.
For college:
Rule 9, Section 3, Article 2B states: “The runner shall not grasp a teammate; and no other player of his team shall grasp, push, lift or charge into him to assist him in forward progress.” The penalty for such an infraction is five yards from the basic spot.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Aug 13, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
For my response, I actually tried to look it up in the NFL rulebook. It’s listed under the list of 5 yard penalty infractions, but there’s no description of what it entails, anywhere. At least it’s in the college rulebook.
I guess in the NFL a ref just has to judge for himself.
Though if someone actually tossed or a carried a small player, as the first comment suggested, I’m sure that would be called.
I FOUND THE ANSWER
Official Rules: 2.00 Definition of Terms
A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession. It is not a catch, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his contact with the ball, he collides with a player, or with a wall, or if he falls down, and as a result of such collision or falling, drops the ball. It is not a catch if a fielder touches a fly ball which then hits a member of the offensive team or an umpire and then is caught by another defensive player. If the fielder has made the catch and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the catch, the ball shall be adjudged to have been caught. In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball and that his release of the ball is voluntary and intentional.
Rule 2.00 (Catch) Comment: A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball. A fielder may reach over a fence, railing, rope or other line of demarcation to make a catch. He may jump on top of a railing, or canvas that may be in foul ground. No interference should be allowed when a fielder reaches over a fence, railing, rope or into a stand to catch a ball. He does so at his own risk.
If a fielder, attempting a catch at the edge of the dugout, is "held up" and kept from an apparent fall by a player or players of either team and the catch is made, it shall be allowed.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Aug 12, 2009 11:51 AM EDT reply actions
The only thing this makes me wonder
Was the we-wish-we-could-forget moment of last year’s Kelly Johnson pop-fly dropped catch that cost the Braves the game versus the Phillies. The two base-runners took off on the sound of the bat, and Johnson didn’t actually catch the ball, since it kind of just plopped through; but because he touched it, regardless of if he were in foul territory or not, it was a live ball, and the two runners ended up scoring as a result.
So my assumption to coldriver’s original question was that the moment of contact with the LFer’s glove should’ve resulted in the moment in which the runner on base should’ve been allowed to take off, without repercussion of “leaving-too early” or not… but I guess a lot of it is the discretion of the umpires, unfortunately.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
he posted the link, but didn’t answer the question. I used his link (which he posted in reply to my comment about the definition of a catch) to find the answer to the OP’s question. Just sayin.
:)
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Aug 12, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
look again
a couple of posts below the link he posted…he posted almost word for word what you did :P
oh dayum…oops. lol
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Aug 12, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting discussion
Thanks for all the thoughts on this…I figured it’d be bush league, but if it’s bottom of the 9th in the playoffs and you’re trying to preserve the game, why not?
That’s interesting, justincredible. When I saw that play it was a couple years ago so maybe they’ve implemented the rule since then?
Doubtful
There haven’t been any significant rule changes in MLB in like 10 years, not until replay was instituted.
Significant?
You would call this rule change a ‘significant’ rule change?
by tomahawkin108 on Aug 12, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
For clarity's sake
Prior to replay, the last rule changes were made in 2007. I would NOT call them significant Here’s what they entailed:
-Reduced the amount of time allowed between pitches with no one on base from 20 seconds to 12. (penalty is one ball)
- Batter must keep at least one foot in the batter’s box throughout his AB, except for certain game-play situations (related to above rule to help speed up the game)
-Rule 3.02 about ball scuffing now carries a 10 game suspension (Prior to this, a ball was assessed and the pitcher was given a warning)
-Rule 3.02 was also amended to include adding rosin, dirt, paraffin, licorice, or any other foreign substance on the ball.
-Gender objectivity: Rulebook references to “him” or “he” shall now be read as “she” or “her” where applicable.
The most important thing there was the addition of rosin to rule 3.02, concerning altering the ball by the pitcher.
Prior to 2007, the last rule changes of any kind came in 1996 and were about the strike zone (significant)
LOL
- Batter must keep at least one foot in the batter’s box throughout his AB, except for certain game-play situations (related to above rule to help speed up the game)
They’re clearly really strict about this one.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Aug 13, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
They made a big deal about this in the minors for the first month that year…for the first month.
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
Haha...
I recall them discussing GA recently and the fact that it’s weird he doesn’t leave the box mid-AB.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Aug 14, 2009 2:31 AM EDT up reply actions
"Gender objectivity"
WTF? Has a woman ever played at any level of pro ball? Besides RF for the Mets?
If Dunn walks 30 fewer times, he'll drive in 15 more runs. This is thanks to the scientifically proven formula: RBI = (this is nonsense) (I made it all up).
Here's a stat: Wins as manager: Dusty Baker, 1,162; Bill James, 0.
One comes to mind
In Japan, there’s a side-arming knuckleballer who is a girl
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
Interesting...
She’s not doing too terribly:
Through 5 apps:
W L IP BF H K BB HBP WP R
0 1 3.0 16 2 3 2 3 1 1
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Aug 13, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Can't be that good
A side arm knuckleballer, and she’s only issued 2 walks with 1 wild-pitch?
Of course, the 3 HBP are encouraging.
lol
Actually, I think of all the major sports, baseball is going to be the first one to have a female major leaguer. There are tons of tiny guys who make it, and I’m sure there are some female athletes out there who are bigger and stronger.
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
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