The NL East just got a whole lot tougher to win
by gondeee on Jul 29, 2009 2:26 PM EDT
in Braves Trade News
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PrintPer K-Ros:
The Phillies have reached agreement on a trade that would bring them left-hander Cliff Lee and outfielder Ben Francisco from the Indians for Class A right-hander Jason Knapp, Class AAA right-hander Carlos Carrasco, shortstop Jason Donald and catcher Lou Marson, according to major-league sources.
My first thought is that this gives them a very tough 1-2 punch at the top of the rotation. My second thought was "I wonder if this will put pressure on the Braves or anyone else in the division to make a big move."
I say we keep standing pat. Maybe get a reliever, but keep standing pat. We'll get our Cliff Lee when Tim Hudson returns in a few weeks.
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Good for them
I know it helps their team, but we need to stand pat for now. Don’t deal one of our good prospects for temporary help when already 8 games back. Huddy will certainly help and last night was a fluke, nothing more.
by Southern IN Chopper on Jul 29, 2009 2:35 PM EDT reply actions
The NL East was an uphill battle as it was. None of the wildcard teams have done anything substantial, so I’m not terribly worried. The Braves control their destiny and I think are the most complete team right now competing for a wild card spot.
Before acquiring Lee, the Phillies had the third best rotation in the NL East. IMO, after acquiring Lee, the Phillies still have the third best rotation in the NL East.
I think they should still get Halladay
And just throw the hammer down and completely just depleet their farm system. Then by the time all their new pitchers are gone, our young studs will be up.
I like the way you think.
Pete Rose was actually banned from baseball for teaching Jeff Francoeur how to play. He made up the gambling stuff to hide his shame.
by VivaLosBravos on Jul 29, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't
Are we seriously hoping to hand the Phillies the next two world series’? If they have their offense and Hamels, Halladay, Lee, Happ, and Myers/Blanton as a starting rotation next year there is no doubt in my mind they’ll win this year and next year. I don’t want to live with that being a Braves fan in the Philadelphia area, and neither should any Braves fan…I’d much rather not have to wait for the Phillies run of dominance to end.
by michaelcooksey on Jul 29, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't worry.
It won’t happen. I salute you for your bravery. Philly fans are the absolute worst.
Pete Rose was actually banned from baseball for teaching Jeff Francoeur how to play. He made up the gambling stuff to hide his shame.
by VivaLosBravos on Jul 29, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree that there’s no way the Phils would do that. But as a braves fan to suggest that it’d be good for us in the future is simply wrong…
by michaelcooksey on Jul 29, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
short term/ long term tradeoff
They would have absolutely nothing left in the minors.
Pete Rose was actually banned from baseball for teaching Jeff Francoeur how to play. He made up the gambling stuff to hide his shame.
by VivaLosBravos on Jul 29, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
We did it for 14 years
Let them have 3 good ones, then we’ll take the crown back.
by BravesRaleigh on Jul 29, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I just hope Frank doesnt view this as," I got to make a move". We made all of our moves already early in season. McClouth and Chruch (not liking Chruch so far) add a reliever, Omar comes back, Caryle is looking good down in triple A,Campillo hopfully returns to form, Timmy in the bullpen or if Kawakami continues to struggle(control) move him to the bullpen and move Tim to the rotation. I am not afraid at all. Would like another bat but if we cant this year get one next year.
BRING IT PHILLY!
by AlRoBraves95 on Jul 29, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Could you spell anymore names wrong multiple times?
by BravesRaleigh on Jul 29, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions
We need a bat
We really need to try and find a big bat. The Phils already have the best offense in the majors. There rotation is still not to the level that ours is, but Lee will help them to win some close games when their offense isn’t hitting. I still think our rotation is the best in the NL and most likely the majors and with Hudson coming back and either him or Kawakami becoming a bullpen pitcher I like that improvement in our pen. But we’ll continue to lose close ball games like last night if we don’t go get a big bat. I don’t know who might be out there but I’m hoping that Wren can find somebody for right field because Church is just aleft handed hitting Francouer who doesn’t have the disappoint that Francouer came with.
We'll continue to lose close games regardless
it’s part of baseball.
I think most (all?) of our playoff push moves will be internal, and I’m ok with that.
Pete Rose was actually banned from baseball for teaching Jeff Francoeur how to play. He made up the gambling stuff to hide his shame.
by VivaLosBravos on Jul 29, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
You're kidding, right?
Church has been a million times better than Francoeur was this year.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 29, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm kidding?
If by better you mean Church has 4 RBI’s since the trade as oppsed to Francouer’s 16 that Church has been a million times better than yes, maybe I am kidding…This trade has not gotten Church going the way that it got Frenchy going, that is pretty damn clear in the numbers…
by michaelcooksey on Jul 29, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Church hitting mediocre in Atlanta is better than Francoeur hitting shitty in Atlanta. I don’t care where he is now or what he is doing there, he was dead weight for us.
this
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 29, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
this also
Pete Rose was actually banned from baseball for teaching Jeff Francoeur how to play. He made up the gambling stuff to hide his shame.
by VivaLosBravos on Jul 29, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
July 27th actually
"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."
-Jim Fregosi
by Stephen Schmidt on Jul 29, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll take the higher OBP
BA is highly subject to luck. Good on-base skills aren’t, and they don’t usually go into a slump, either.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
Really?
So Church is getting on base at a higher percentage batting in front of the pitcher. He isn’t driving in people that got on in front of him like Francouer is. Jeff has been batting 5th for the Mets.
by michaelcooksey on Jul 29, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Francoeur has hit over his head for a whopping two or three weeks.
Further, he’s had over twice the number of men on base when he’s hit as Church: 49-22.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 29, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
It happened last night.
Church walks, pitcher bunts him to second, then McClouth and Prado have a chance to hit him in. That was a big run.
Ok
What about the Slugging Percentage? RBI’s? HR’s? Hits Period?
by drumzalicious on Jul 29, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Numbers
Since the Trade Church has 6 hits, Francouer has 17. Church has 1 homer, Francouer 3. Church’s BA has gone from .275 to .273. Francouer’s has gone from .253-.262. Francouers OBP has gone from .285 to .292. Church’s has gone from .327 to .337. The OBP is the only aberation. And I really believe its a product of him batting mostly 8th in front of the pitcher’s spot…
by michaelcooksey on Jul 29, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
So it's not an abberation...
That Francouer has hit better than his career line in nearly every category for a whopping two or three week span? No, I forget..he’s probably “turning it around.”
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 29, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
he changed his stance!
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 29, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Comparing quantitative stats is dumb
When Frenchy has 50% more PAs than Church since the deal.
Despite less PT, Church has actually been worth .9 runs more. gasp.
Pete Rose was actually banned from baseball for teaching Jeff Francoeur how to play. He made up the gambling stuff to hide his shame.
by VivaLosBravos on Jul 29, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
We are a better team today with Church than we were with Francoeur.
I haven’t seen our RF cowering in fear of any line drives lately.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 29, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I loled when I saw that on sportscenter
by acie4mvp on Jul 30, 2009 2:09 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Oh...
And Church has been hitting, what, 7th? Francoeur was slotted into the 5th spot. Frankly,w hat he does there is pretty irrelevant, though, because he sure as shit wasn’t doing it here. If Church has improved in one area, it’s that we know that it’s not an almost guaranteed DP when our RF comes up to the plate with RISP.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 29, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Franceour has 16RBI’s in 14 games with the Mets so far this year and Chruch is stinking it up so far:
BA. 327 Games12 AB 49 2HR 16RBI’s Hits16 2B 2 SO 5 .OBP327 SLG.490 OPS.817
Ryan Chruch:
BA200 Games12 AB30 Runs6 Hits6 2B 0 HR 1 RBI’s4 7BB OBP.351 SLG.300 OPS.651
by AlRoBraves95 on Jul 29, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
oh gosh…I was just on the Mets’ blog the other day ridiculing them for supporting the FYF trade…and now we have people here lamenting it!
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 29, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
You called it.
Verdict final. Francoeur is an All-Star, Church is a bum. We got killed!
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 29, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Wrong....
They didn’t give up any of their top 3 prospects.
Wait, what?
You legitimately think Tim Hudson will be as good a pitcher as Cliff Lee over the rest of the season. Wow.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
+1
he had one good year (last year) and a few very mediocre ones where his peripherals were crap.
what worries me more is their acquiring francisco. i think they COULD trade Werth for ANOTHER arm and not miss a beat.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Jul 29, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
yes he is.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 29, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Lee is a very good pitcher. But, he is not a great pitcher. He will not make the difference in the division this year. Philly’s rotation is/was WAY more in need of just Cliff Lee. Cliff would be the 3rd or 4th best pitcher on our team right now, and he is already Philly’s best.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 29, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
That's a ridiculous statement...
- Cliff Lee won the AL Cy Young last year.
This year’s stats" (in the AL!!!)
ERA – 3.14
Innings Pitched – 152.0
Home Runs allowed – 10
Strikeout to Walks – 107 / 33 (2.57x)
WHIP: 1.31
ah…so a 3.14 ERA is Great, a 2.5 K:BB ratio is great and a 1.3 whip is Great???
No, those are very good, not great. As I said, he is a very good pitcher, but not great.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 29, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
It's pretty close to great
Lets be honest with each other here, Lee is going to help the Phillies a lot. That said, at least it isn’t Halladay.
by Andy Braves Fan on Jul 29, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Lee is going to help the Phillies, sure. But, they still have 3 other black holes in their rotation. Yeah, Blanton has been decent lately, but look at the whole package. They have a regressing Hamels, Lee, Blanton, Happ and Pedro. I don’t think Lee solves their problems.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 29, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
And Happ is playing way over his head
by acie4mvp on Jul 30, 2009 2:13 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
My fantasy team approves of his streak right now though!
I am willing to ride that train as far as it takes me, then bail as it starts to burn…
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 30, 2009 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions
I would call them VERY GOOD stats in the American League....
- Last year his stats were UNBELIEVABLY FANTASTICALLY GREAT
- Hudson was NOT better than Lee even before he blew his arm out
- He would be our best pitcher or our 2nd best pitcher
The league change point is a good one.
Pete Rose was actually banned from baseball for teaching Jeff Francoeur how to play. He made up the gambling stuff to hide his shame.
by VivaLosBravos on Jul 29, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Why are we talking about Hudson? I never mentioned anything about Hudson. I would take Hanson, Vazquez and Jurrjens over Lee right now every time.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 29, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
At least we don't have.....
Frenchy anymore. Debate solved.
lol
fair enough.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 29, 2009 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Because gondee said Hudson is our Lee
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 29, 2009 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
in other words, he will be our big name pitcher joining us after the trading deadline.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 29, 2009 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re off on the K:BB, its actually 3.24 (down from 5.00 last year). He does allow a lot of hits, but thats what tends to happen when you have the defense he does behind him. That should improve in Philly.
Good call, thanks...
Keith Law just did a review of the trade and said the Phillies got a steal. He’s confident that VMart will get traded now since they punted on 2010 and have a stud catcher waiting in AAA.
A la KLAW....
At this point it’s hard to see any logic for Cleveland to retain Victor Martinez; their chances to contend in 2010 are largely gone because of the dearth of major league-ready starting pitching in the organization, and they’re not in a payroll bracket where they’re going to go out and buy three-fifths of a playoff rotation. Keeping Martinez, a productive but injury-prone catcher, with Santana and Marson sitting in Triple-A, doesn’t make much sense given the front office’s evident decision to rebuild.
That was Klaw's point...
Besides Knapp, everyone else in the deal is questionable.
Seriously…Donald is probably a utility IF/spot starter type, Marson is a lower tier starting catcher at best because he has no power, Carrasco is an absolute headcase that is prone to the big inning (saw him get absolutely shelled this spring against the Pirates), and Knapp has good stuff but is still very raw, and is already having shoulder issues.
Knapp is the most questionable
in terms of risk, but he’s also got the highest ceiling by far.
Pete Rose was actually banned from baseball for teaching Jeff Francoeur how to play. He made up the gambling stuff to hide his shame.
by VivaLosBravos on Jul 29, 2009 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Hudson also blew his elbow out a year ago, if you forgot.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 29, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly
this move does not scare me THAT much. You still have to win a 3 game series. Plus, Lee is on my fantasy team, which means i’ve been following his fantasy numbers pretty closely. He has been somewhat shaky this year, but obviously that lineup will probably help his numbers as well as him pitching in the NL. I hope the 1-2 punch you’re referring to is Lee and Happ, because Cole Hamels has been mostly garbage this season.
He was pretty good last night.
And it’s not like he hasn’t shown he can do it on the big stage.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 29, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
You WERE saying...
He’s not as good as JA Happ. That’s ridiculous.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 29, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Additionally
All this move does is put pressure on wren to acquire a big bat, which I realize does not look like that pressing of a need right now, but this lineup has to cool off at some point and we’ll wish we had gotten one then.
This lineup doesn’t have to cool off at some point. It already went through that cooled off time – remember May and June?
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 29, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
According to Baseball America....
The Phillies did not give up any of their top 3 prospects to get Lee!!!!! Wow. They made out like bandits in this trade. They are going to be VERY tough to beat for the next 2 years.
Then we should go get V-Mart and LaPorta for Medlen and B. Jones
by BravesRaleigh on Jul 29, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
seriously?
vmart and laporta would cost us…
medlen
kimbrel
b. jones
schafer
reyes
which, interestingly enough, i’d do in a heart beat.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Jul 29, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
lol
was a joke, guy said the indians are retarded, so i made a trade up that a retarded team would make. lordy lordy lordy
by BravesRaleigh on Jul 29, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Knapp has a higher ceiling than Drabek
I’ve read several places that call Knapp a Halladay clone at 6-5.
by Southern IN Chopper on Jul 29, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
And?
Happ wont even be that good. And they wouldnt have traded happ for halladay, so would you rather have them not made a trade at all, and them kept those four prospects?
Nice 1-2 punch
the rest of that rotation is still shaky as hell.
by Andy Braves Fan on Jul 29, 2009 3:04 PM EDT reply actions
no
he is just old. Happ and Blanton are shaky.
by Andy Braves Fan on Jul 29, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
i almost forgot they traded for blanton last year
that trade didn’t turn out so well for them, and I seem to remember some people on here clamoring for him.
He was relatively young cheap and reliable
but the problem is that the Phillies play in a bandbox. He would have been a better pitcher to have in Atlanta, though he was never an ace or anything.
by Andy Braves Fan on Jul 29, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Blanton has a 4.14 ERA in 189 regular season innings and a 2-1 record with a 3.17 ERA in the postseason. And he helped them win the WS… I can’t say anyone expected Blanton would perform better than that
"Four of us wolves, running around the desert together in Las Vegas, looking for strippers and cocaine..."
i honestly dont have time to pull out stats and really break down his performance bit by bit. All i’m saying is that when he was acquired last year, I remember him being touted as the kind of guy that would turn the phillies rotation into a solid one. Now, obviously that isn’t the case or they wouldn’t have just traded for Lee. You can sit here and say yeah well hes done all they wanted him to do. But a 4.14 era is average at best and is not necessarily what you desire out of your 2nd best pitcher
Blanton
has been incredible lately.
Pete Rose was actually banned from baseball for teaching Jeff Francoeur how to play. He made up the gambling stuff to hide his shame.
by VivaLosBravos on Jul 29, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
uhhh
Uh didn’t Blanton go undefeated with them last year and win a world series? and didnt he hit a HR in the world series? and hasn’t he been their 2nd best pitcher this year? yea that didn’t work out…
Everyone says that but the Indians are pretty good at this. Think Fausto Carmona and Bartolo Colon.
by acie4mvp on Jul 30, 2009 2:23 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You guys dont know a good prospect haul apparently.
Anyways, I would be very excited to be an Indian fan right now. Even though they are kissing the season good bye, I always like to see good new prospects come into the organization. And Vmart is likely moving as well.
I really do appreciate what they got
It is a good haul, but I was really hoping a deadline blockbuster would cost them more. The Tribe probably wins value wise, this just isn’t what I wanted to see.
Pete Rose was actually banned from baseball for teaching Jeff Francoeur how to play. He made up the gambling stuff to hide his shame.
by VivaLosBravos on Jul 29, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
This. Oh god, this. Everyone saying shit like “WOW THEY DIDN’T GIVE UP HAPP GREAT DEAL!” should be declared clinically retarded, because Happ has the peripherals of a league average 5th starter.
that
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 29, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
But he has wins! He knows how to win! He has the heart of a champion and determination of a lion!
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 29, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
If he were a basketball player...
I’m sure he’d be a walk-on/manager PG at Duke.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 29, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
HAHAHAHAHA
nice. I always love a good Duke jab.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 29, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
And I'm a Duke fan, at that...
But god knows we value scrappiness more than any other good team does. Then again, we never had Bobby Frasor or Wes Miller starting for us.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 29, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
lol…and you also didn’t win a championship with Frasor or Miller on your team.
:)
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 29, 2009 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions
We did win one with Cherokee Parks on ours.
:P
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 29, 2009 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Ya the only reason Ricciardi wanted Happ was to have an ML ready player or something of the sort. Hopefully most of those displeased would prefer the departures of Drabek, Taylor, and Brown, none of whom have the peripherals of fifth starters.
Pete Rose was actually banned from baseball for teaching Jeff Francoeur how to play. He made up the gambling stuff to hide his shame.
by VivaLosBravos on Jul 29, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Are people saying that?
I thought the complaint was that Philly somehow got away with not dealing Drabek or Taylor.
The well informed are
Not really sure who Mr. Joe’s been talking to.
Pete Rose was actually banned from baseball for teaching Jeff Francoeur how to play. He made up the gambling stuff to hide his shame.
by VivaLosBravos on Jul 29, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
like I said. The well informed are.
Pete Rose was actually banned from baseball for teaching Jeff Francoeur how to play. He made up the gambling stuff to hide his shame.
by VivaLosBravos on Jul 29, 2009 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I replaced the Phillies with Fruit by the foot...
its just like the commercial
the Phillies acquire Cliff Lee
Rest of NL: Indeed you have
NL East: Okay, that was a step back
Lee isn’t Halladay and Philadelphia will soon find out. He’s Cole Hamels 2.0….They have no dominant right hand starters….
Note to Phillies fans: have fun pitching to Escobar, Ramirez (Hanley & Manny), Braun and all the other right hand power hitters in the NL
Really?
Escobar is a right handed power hitter in the same category as Manny, Hanley, and Braun? That’s…..bold.
by BravesRaleigh on Jul 29, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I actually wouldn’t consider Hanley a power hitter. IMO, a power hitter is someone like Manny, Braun, Derrek and Carlos Lee, Aramis Ramirez.
by BravesRaleigh on Jul 29, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
true true
but i feel like we have the pieces to handle lefties especially the Phillies with Hamels, Happ, Lee, and Moyer
KJ hits lefties well and Kotchman absolutely owns Hamels
I’d rather see Cliff Lee than Roy Halladay any day..
well yea i agree with you completely that id rather them have lee than halladay
was just disputing the escobar power hitter statement.
by BravesRaleigh on Jul 29, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
yea
his recent play has me exaggerating his abilities lol
lol
it happens, i mean dont get me wrong, i love yunel, but he’s a perfect 5/6 hitter, not a cleanup hitter
by BravesRaleigh on Jul 29, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope the Braves do NOT stand pat.
Someone above said we control our destiny in the wildcard race and that is a true fact.
Equally true is that we have to somehow get past the Marlins, Rockies, Giants and Cubs or Cards.
I don’t like our chances at all and think we should be aggressively trying to improve the team with a top drawer set up man for the Bullpen and/or a RH bat with power.
We have good pieces that can be bundled as a package.
I do, however, fully agree that we should by no means gut our future by dealing our top few prospects.
So would you make a Freeman for Victor Martinez swap?
if cleveland even considered that…
I would depending on V-Mart’s contract.
by BravesRaleigh on Jul 29, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Absolutely not
I would make a Kotchman and some other lesser prospect for Martinez swap. Kotchman is a viable starter for the Indians at 1B and he will come relatively cheap next year. I would not give up Freeman. If you think about it we defn would not pay Martinez to stick around after next year and then we wouldn’t have Freeman or him at 1B.
by michaelcooksey on Jul 29, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
*sigh*
if only kendry morales came to atlanta instead of kotchman..
Yeah, I'm sure the Angels were BEGGING us to take him off their hands.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 29, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
It probably take more than Freeman to get Martinez.
The Indians turned down Bucholtz for him straight up – according to Gammons.
if that's true
Then the Indians really are idiots. Bucholz is a stud.
Headlining the Campaign for the return of Ryan Langerhans! MVP 2011!
by RichmondBraves on Jul 29, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
So is VMART.....
A true power/clean-up hitter signed very cheaply for next 2 years, who can also play catcher.
I thought Martinez was a little older
I probably overrate Bucholtz. I think he’s gonna win multiple Cy Youngs.
Headlining the Campaign for the return of Ryan Langerhans! MVP 2011!
by RichmondBraves on Jul 29, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
VMart makes....
- $5.7MM this year and a club option for $7MM next year. Great deal for Indians.
- Bucholtz is a stud, scouts say #1 potential.
Straight up? No way.
Martinez is too good, and they would have him for 2009 and 2010. Bucholtz and maybe two others, or just one other good one.
100 % agree.
Freeman’s upside is too great.
Martinez would be a fine addition to the middle our lineup, but only for 200+ games. I assume he would also be a major defensive downgrade at 1B from Kotch.
I would love it if we could get Martinez, but Freeman is damn close to untouchable.
Phillis top ten Prospect according to BA:
1. Dominic Brown, of
2. Carlos Carrasco, rhp (traded)
3. Lou Marson, c (traded)
4. Jason Donald, ss (traded)
5. Kyle Drabek, rhp
6. Michael Taylor, of
7. Travis D’Arnaud, c
8. Zach Collier, of
9. J.A. Happ, lhp
10. Jason Knapp, rhp (traded)
For reference, Braves top ten Prospect according to BA:
1. Tommy Hanson, rhp
2. Jason Heyward, of
3. Jordan Schafer, of
4. Gorkys Hernandez, of
5. Freddie Freeman, 1b
6. Cole Rohrbough, lhp
7. Jeff Locke, lhp
8. Julio Teheran, rhp
9. Kris Medlen, rhp
10. Craig Kimbrel, rhp
Imagine trading four of those guys for Lee and Francisco. And its not like our organization is much better than theirs.
Don't forget
We traded away our #4 and our #7 guys.
by BravesRaleigh on Jul 29, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
These are preseason lists
The landscape for both clubs is totally different now.
Pete Rose was actually banned from baseball for teaching Jeff Francoeur how to play. He made up the gambling stuff to hide his shame.
by VivaLosBravos on Jul 29, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmmm
So the phils got Lee.
I’m not so sure we should stand pat. Basically every team ahead of us is doing something the Phillies are doing something in the NL East lead. The Giants already got Garko and are looking to get Sanchez as well. The Cubs and the Rockies are already rumored to be looking to add pieces and we can’t expect the Brewers to continue this decline and not add any type of starter.
It would be nice for us to get a bat. Heck even a reliever, I’m just not sold on us staying pat.
V-Mart would look nice as our 1B. Yes we lose some Defensive prowess over there but our Line Up finally will have that #4 hitter to go behind Chipper.
Who do we trade for him?
I have no idea, maybe start with:
Medlen
Cody Johnson
One of our A ball Pitchers
Kotchman as a throw in
I’m not sure but i know it could get done without giving up Freeman. They want pitching and we have Medlen as a ML ready type and tons in the Lower A ranks
as long as freeman, heyward, schafer...
arent in the deal i would do it
that wouldn’t get Victor.
Pete Rose was actually banned from baseball for teaching Jeff Francoeur how to play. He made up the gambling stuff to hide his shame.
by VivaLosBravos on Jul 29, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
ok
then add BJones, JoJo, and Reid Gorecki
And a holographic Pikachu card...
If we’re just giving them things that don’t matter.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 29, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL
throw in Jeff Bennett, Greg Norton, and an autographed baseball from John Rocker…
that card is very rare though….
I thought hurricane season was over........
by bravesguy311 on Jul 29, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm sure.
Not quite as rare as my Japanese Team Rocket, though.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 29, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Devall, Delgado, Schafer...
starting to sound like another Tex deal…
Yeah I’m seeing Teixeira all over again right there.
by BravesRaleigh on Jul 29, 2009 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
i doubt
it would take that much thats insane
by drumzalicious on Jul 29, 2009 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Blanton has been on fire lately
Lee
Hamels
Blanton
Pedro
Moyer.
Its no sure thing, but definitely has potential.
I see a similarity to this:
Smoltz
Hudson
Glavine
Hampton
Reyes.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 29, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
You're on crack
If you think the Phils are going to just let Pedro in and take Happ’s spot. That’s like the Braves sending Hanson to the pen in favor of Hudson, except that Pedro has been completely out of baseball.
Why'd the Mets, of all teams, have to draft John Maine!?!?
lol…according to some people over at The Good Phight, he is better! lol
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 29, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought Moyer just got sent to the ’pen?
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 29, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Apparently not, hasn’t made a relief appearance this season.
I’m considering doing a writeup about the deal tonight and its implications on the Braves…depends how bored I get in class tonight.
I look forward to reading it.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 29, 2009 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Rosterbation
ends on Friday
no more worries after that…
We’ll probably end up getting damn “WILL SO AND SO PASS THROUGH WAIVERS SO WE CAN GET HIM!?!?” nonsense posts too.
You can only hope to contain it
in one rosterbation post.
by Andy Braves Fan on Jul 29, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
It depends on the rosterbation posts
some can get really ugly…
by Andy Braves Fan on Jul 29, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think any can get worse than “OMG! WE LOST A GAME IN JULY!!! OUR SEASON IS OVER!!!” That crap last night really embarrassed me as a fan and member of this blog.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 29, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
so true.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 29, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
They sent the farm
4 of the top 10 prospects to the Indians, what a steal for Cleveland and all they had to do is send away an overrated Cliff Lee.
Why'd the Mets, of all teams, have to draft John Maine!?!?
How exactly is it you figure a 7+ WAR pitcher signed cheap to be overrated?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 29, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I ain't skeered....
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
trades
We need right handed hitters . We almost have all left handed batters . We need Victor Martinez or a right handed hitting outfielder . Look at the right handed hitters we have Escobar , Ross , Diaz , Prado wheres the serious power at .
not convinced
Our lefties hit southpaws pretty well and Chipper’s power has come mostly from the right side this year.
Pete Rose was actually banned from baseball for teaching Jeff Francoeur how to play. He made up the gambling stuff to hide his shame.
by VivaLosBravos on Jul 29, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m bummed about the Phillies’ acquisition of Lee. But I’m curious to see how he’ll pitch in that ball park. He’s a fly ball pitcher and that field is not known to keep a lot of long balls within the yard. I just can’t believe how they didn’t give up any of their top 3 prospect, or Happ in that deal. They made out very well in that deal…
Seems like a lot of folks here are suggesting that we trade for Victor Martinez. My question would be, where would the Braves play him? No way, we’d move Mac and it’s not like we have the DH position. I think our biggest concern is our bullpen. Hudson could be a possibility, may not be a bad idea to let him work his arm back to strength. Michael Wuertz of the A’s is also pitching lights out right now.
Actually, looks like he only had more ground balls last year, 2008.
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/2008/05/14/pitcher-analysis-cliff-lee/
Per my link below, he’s had more fly balls so far this season.
.../a year.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 30, 2009 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions
You just linked a site that doesn't know the difference between the words 'effect' and 'affect'
Credibility: FAIL.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 29, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
That is seriously one of the most hideous looking pages ever. Stick to RotoTimes for your fantasy news.
Okay, okay…pardon my links…I guess you weren’t down for voting on MLB’s hottest wives!
But the point was to show that the guy is a fly ball pitcher (which I still believe that he is, even with his recent stats). You tell me that he’s got less than two seasons of being a ground ball pitcher, so does that then make him a ground baller? Do you no longer take into consideration all those previous years since ’02? If Pujols had a season where he hit 10 HRs and started spraying line drives all over the field, and then continued that over the first half of the following season, would you guys define him as a line drive hitter and overlook all the power numbers from previous seasons? I doubt that you would.
it all depends. If a pitcher has shown a recent change in style, you have to concede that they are no longer what they once were. Barry Zito was once an ace-caliber pitcher. He hasn’t been for a couple of seasons now, but according to your posted reasoning, he should still be considered that because he once was that.
Players change.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 30, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, I see your point…and my example with Pujols is a little exaggerated as in the case of Zito, who is nowhere near his old form back in Oakland. But at the same time, can we conclude at this point that Lee has made such a drastic change? Has he added in a splitter or sinker into his repertoire that has generated all these grounders? I can be very wrong but last I remember, he had a number of fastballs, circle change and perhaps a curve ball.
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