Fire Terry Pendleton
by gondeee on Jun 27, 2009 9:22 PM EDT
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PrintThis is not a post about one game, or one series, this is not even a post about just one season. This is a post about the culmination of the last several seasons and the resulting inadequacies of the Atlanta Braves offense of 2009. This is about a team that has been shut out, scored zero runs, a league-high 9 times this year. That doesn't happen by accident. That doesn't even happen to the Nationals.
Some of you will say that this is not Terry Pendleton's fault, and you may be right. But in the grand scheme of things, in the hierarchy of baseball, it is the hitting coach that should pay the penalty for a team not hitting. Should we blame the players? Yes. But we can't replace them as easily. We don't have the ability to replace our underperforming players from withing the organization, but another hitting coach with a different philosophy of hitting can always be found from within or outside the organization.
In the grand scheme of things, something has to be done to shake this team up, and that thing should be to fire the Braves hitting coach, Terry Pendleton.
If we need evidence, then it is there. Jeff Francoeur could not rely on TP to try and fix his problems, so this off-season he went to Rudy Jamarillo of the Texas Rangers -- the same person who may be fixing the unfixable Andruw Jones, a former failure of Terry Pendleton.
TP has not been able to help Kelly Johnson improve, and for the last three years we have seen nothing but regression from KJ.
Casey Kotchman has not hit well, and not hit for power, and we have suffered from that inability of one of our corner infielders to be a run-producer.
The Braves hitters are a reflection of their hitting coach's career:
| TP vs. the 2009 Braves | OBP | SLG | OPS |
| Terry Pendleton's career numbers | .316 | .391 | .707 |
| The 2009 Atlanta Braves numbers | .329 | .389 | .717 |
It is a scarily similar line, and one that should not be unexpected. I'm not saying that all hitting coaches teach what they themselves did as players, but this one certainly seems to be trending that way.
I'm not just calling for the termination of Terry Pendleton, this is also about responsibility and accountability. For the past three years we have been making excuses for the Atlanta Braves, and we have been doing so with the exact same coaching staff, and that has to stop. Someone has to be the sacrificial lamb of this team. We have to fire someone to let this team know that the results they are putting up come with consequences.
The Atlanta Braves need to fire Terry Pendleton... now!
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Nothing against TP, but we need a REAL hitting coach.
"The future is no place to place your better days." - Dave Matthews ~ RIP Roi
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jun 27, 2009 9:24 PM EDT reply actions
Seriously? This is all you have? He can’t improve players that have no idea what the hell they’re doing, so he should be fired?
This is absurd.
My premise is that you gotta blame somebody, and I’m blaming the guy responsible for teaching the Braves to hit. This is not about one or two players anymore, this is larger, and that means TP takes the blame.
The guy who taught them how to hit?
I may be wrong, but I’m pretty sure they should have learned how to hit before they came to major leagues. TP seems like the kind of guy that will not mess with someone unless they are looking for help. Certainly he should be able to help our hitters out, but your examples are ridiculous. Jeff Francouer clearly thinks way to highly of himself and will not give TP a chance to help him. He went to Texas without notifying the team (another reason why his ass needs to be shipped out of town). Andruw Jones had a flawed approach before TP got here, and despite a few huge seasons (probably with a little help as much as I hate to admit it), he has been awful at the plate.
The problem with this team are the arrogant and selfish players in the locker room that are preventing this team from coming together. This team does not seem to play with any enthusiasm or common purpose. It feels like a team of individuals. The sooner we ship Francouer and Escobar out of town, the better off this team will be. Sheffield may have been selfish, but he was really fucking good. Escobar has had a solid season, but he is starting to look like the Adam Dunn of shortstops with his recent play.
Ship out Escobar?
Yeah, that would be a great idea, since we’ve got so many internal options to replace him. Sorry, but I’ll take the immaturity in exchange for one of our few productive bats.
by chantshuffler on Jun 27, 2009 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions
So . . .
When you think highly of yourself your so good you seek help from someone who you feel can help you.
if anything it seems like he did a noble thing and went to one of the greatest hitting coaches and got advice so that he could become a better player
by drumzalicious on Jun 28, 2009 3:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Or he made a last-ditch effort to not flame out of the majors by the time he's 28.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes.
Infante, Escobar, Diaz, and Kotchman must not go to him either.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes!
And the fact that Francouer went to Rudy Jaramillo and STILL can’t hit worth a damn is further proof he should go! I’ll have my torch and pitchfork ready for the next game!
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 27, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions
actually.
FYF started off just fine. then he hit a slump and now he is picking it back up.
by drumzalicious on Jun 28, 2009 3:34 AM EDT up reply actions
which techincally is pickin it up for FYF considering he wasnt in the 600s in may
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
thank you
it may not be the greatest but its improving slowly over the last couple of weeks.
by drumzalicious on Jun 28, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think
that he is actually defending you…I think he is making the point that it is very sad that an OPS of .612 is an improvement for a corner OFer.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 28, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
all im saying is that it is an improvement and if it keeps going up great
by drumzalicious on Jun 29, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Roger that
but it will take a LONG time for him to be at a level that is acceptable.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 29, 2009 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions
im not so certain.
i would like to think that the only reason he did bad this past weekend is the same reason everyone else did and that was because we played against some good pitching from Beckett and Wakefield.
we shall soon see. If not TRADE EM ALL lol
by drumzalicious on Jun 29, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Why even have a hitting coach..
if the players don’t know what the hell they are doing? So if he has no impact on improving the players why does it matter if he is fired or not? I do not understand your point.
"It takes many nails to build crib, but only one screw to fill it." - Chinese Proverb
AMEN
The offensive inadequacies of this team may or may not be Terry Pendleton’s fault, but it’s high time that some accountability was shown in this organization. A move has to be made, and you simply can not get rid of every player that’s not hitting. The Cubs were one of the best offensive teams in baseball last year, yet when they struggled this year it was their hitting coach who got the can. Accountability is exactly what this is about, and its something that the organization hasn’t shown in a long time.
It's about time for someone's head to roll, and as much as I hate to say it, TP is the most likely candidate.
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Jun 27, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
“The offensive inadequacies of this team may or may not be Terry Pendleton’s fault, but it’s high time that some accountability was shown in this organization. A move has to be made, and you simply can not get rid of every player that’s not hitting.”
This is frighteningly bad logic. Let me break this down: I don’t really know the cause of our problems, but we need to fire someone, so how about….Terry Pendleton! If you want to fix the problem, you find the cause of the problem. Think this through—if we fire Pendleton, and it’s really not his fault, then we’ve had a major setback. Not because you’ve lost Pendleton, but because you’ll THINK you’ve accomplished something when really you haven’t. So you’ll sit back and think you’ve solved the offensive issues, and naturally you’ll allow some time to enjoy the fruits of your success. Unless of course, if you haven’t chosen the right solution, then you’re sitting waiting for a train of success that ain’t comin’.
It’s MUCH, MUCH more efficient to actually figure out what’s wrong, and fix that than to just fire someone—anyone—so you can at least feel like you’re “doing something.” And what you’ll have to live with as a fan is that we probably can’t make that evaluation since, without talking to the players, we can’t really know whether TP is a good hitting coach or not.
I’m not trying to exonerate Pendleton; he very well could be the root of all evil for the Braves. But the logic you’re using to get to that conclusion is total, utter BS. By your logic, without any analysis of actual cause, Frank Wren or Bobby Cox or Chipper Jones could just as easily be to blame (doesn’t Chipper give tons of hitting tips?)…that’s how ridiculous it is.
by tgthree on Jun 27, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good points, but I’m still taking a different stance on this, and that stance is that TP should be the one to go. Right or wrong, I believe the Braves should do this and live with the consequences. To my recollection the Braves have never fired a coach in the middle of the season during the Bobby Cox era, and I believe it’s time to leave organizational sentimentality behind and do what any other organization would have done by now — assigned blame and fired away.
Frank Fultz.
Also, you’re being a real hardass about this, offering no real hard evidence to back up your claim.
When was the last time any team gave hard evidence for firing a coach, except that a team was not winning?
Just because they didn’t give it to YOU doesn’t mean it didn’t exist. Gotta remember the teams also have the luxury of, you know, like talking to the players who work with the guy. The team knows far more than we do on this score, and perhaps they have their reasons for keeping Pendleton around. It seems you’re making the assumption that sentimentality is the only reason TP hasn’t already been fired, and that’s a pretty big logical leap.
but u dont really think the players would throw thier hitting coach under the bus like that… even in a conversation with the higher ups of the org.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Just said that it wasn't about logic
It’s about sending a message. As the great Tom Petty said (or named an album) “Damn the torpedoes.”
by chantshuffler on Jun 28, 2009 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Because knee-jerk reactions are the best way to be successful!
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Right On...
Wren obviously doesnt care about the image of the Braves alumni…Smoltz, Glavine…..so why care about TP? If he doesnt want to fire him then put him on the bench or let him coach in the minors. Get us a new guy that will light a fire under these young guys. We need to move NOW…or else it will be too late and it wont even matter.
"You can live for Nothing or die for Something, it's your call" - John Rambo
Definitely...
Because lighting a fire under players is more important than knowing how to, you know, do your job.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions
What is the reason for a Hitting Coach?
If all Major Leaguers know how to, you know, do their job? Same for Pitching coaches, etc.
"You can live for Nothing or die for Something, it's your call" - John Rambo
I was talking about the coaches.
Apparently you’d rather have the guy who can yell the loudest rather than the one who can coach players.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
How about one that can do both?
What I mean about lighting a fire under them is to not let this terrible approach at hitting continue…..someone to say hey guys this is enough….you need to change this and alter this.
You notice how when teams are in slumps record wise for a while they will fire the head coach and the team will turn around….well seems like the same would work for hitting. Maybe if Wren was serious about contending he would notice this and do something about it. Francoeur proved when he came in the league that he could put up the numbers….he CAN do it he proved it….its just a fact of getting him back to that point. He is still young and has the potential to be a big time player with his big time arm.
"You can live for Nothing or die for Something, it's your call" - John Rambo
There are just as many examples of coach firings leading to the team staying the same or even getting worse...
And Francoeur did well in an incredibly short span of a few months. It was because pitchers didn’t have scouting reports on him and didn’t know they could put him away without ever throwing a strike. Once they adjusted to him, he was sunk, and he hasn’t changed anything about his game since, regardless of the fact that he’s gone to no less than two major league hitting coaches (and a short stint in the minors) who have no doubt told him to get his shit together. In that instance (and many others, I’m certain), it doesn’t matter how much a coach does or doesn’t want a player’s stance or approach or mechanics changed. At some point, they’re going to have to listen and, as Pendleton put it, “Step up.” No coach, no matter how good, can step on the field and do his players’ jobs.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Your right.
Francoeur needs to step up….but I dont see us trying to trade him off for a couple bad seasons. He is too young. He is ultra talented defensively and has the potential to get back into his groove offensively. I would hate to see him traded and then start bombing 30hr a year with a .280-.290BA. He is too valuable with his arm alone. You never seen Ozzie Smith put up awesome numbers….he was who he is because of his glove.
If Terry Pendleton shouldnt be fired for not doing his job then Frenchy should not be traded for not doing his…..you cant have a double standard.
"You can live for Nothing or die for Something, it's your call" - John Rambo
It's not a double standard.
Position coaches don’t often get traded, thus there’s no way we could get any kind of a return if Pendleton is let go. We can “give up on”/“let go of” Francoeur and still recoup something from our initial investment. And as for that golden arm, Francoeur’s been a below-average defender this year, inclusive of it.
So Terry Pendleton shouldn’t be fired immediately any more than FYF should be cut. I think that’s a plenty fair statement.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 29, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, by the way.
Braves line: .258/.329/.389
NL average line: .257/.331/.405
You’re essentially bitching about 16 points of slugging percentage, which is attributable to the fact that
A) Frank Wren did nothing about his powerless failure of a corpse in right field
B) Frank Wren handed the starting CF job out of spring training to a rookie who was clearly not ready and hit a brick wall after the first week of the season because he needed more time
C) Frank Wren signed a decrepit left fielder who hasn’t had a SLG over .450 in regular playing time in 5 years
But yeah, its all TP’s fault, because he’s supposed to turn shit into diamonds.
Francouer had to leave the organization to find help.
Andruw Jones had to leave to get help.
KJ has declined every year since his first full year in the majors.
Kotchman is on pace for his worst offensive season yet.
Chipper doesn’t go to TP for advice, and has admitted so.
McCann doesn’t go to TP for advice, and has admitted so.
TP isn’t blameless in all of this. It all goes back to accountability. If the front office had to balls to stand up and fire someone’s ass occasionally then there’s a strong chance we wouldn’t see this. Its the hitting that sucks, and has been inconsistant for the last forever, so the blame falls on the hitting coach.
THIS
"The future is no place to place your better days." - Dave Matthews ~ RIP Roi
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jun 27, 2009 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you actually going to add anything to the discussion, or just write little one liners talking about how Terry Pendleton is a bad man because he has lines on his face?
So I don't blog. Sue me.
"The future is no place to place your better days." - Dave Matthews ~ RIP Roi
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jun 27, 2009 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions
(another one-liner)
"The future is no place to place your better days." - Dave Matthews ~ RIP Roi
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jun 27, 2009 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Francoeur left the organization to get help and got worse.
Andruw Jones fell off a cliff once he left the Braves organization.
We’ve discussed Johnson in depth in other threads, but I don’t expect you to know what BABIP is.
Kotchman just really isn’t that good of a player, people felt the need to buy into him as some sort of superstar savior after trading Robodouche for him.
Chipper and McCann can’t go to their parents in the middle of games to make adjustments.
During Terry Pendleton’s tenure when the Braves front office has given him players to work with that are above replacement level, the team has had an above average offense. When he’s given shit to work with, he can’t work miracles. No one can.
Jeff Francoeur carried respectable numbers throughout the first month of the season after he worked with Jaramillo. After spending an extended time with TP, he regressed back to his former self.
Andruw I’ll give you, I’m actually going to accredit his “downfall” to injury and not a coach.
Never assume, it makes and ass out of both you and me. just because I don’t post here often doesn’t mean that I’m not educated as to basic sabermetric statistics. I fully understand BABIP, but that doesn’t explain the drop in IsoOBP since becoming the starter at 2B.
You’re right, Kotchman has never been a superstar type player. But is it unreasonable to expect a player in his prime years to put up decent numbers? Maybe he’s just a bad player, but I’d expect what he’s done in the minors (and in 2007) to translate over to the majors.
by bravesfan91 on Jun 27, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
For Kelly, I’m chalking 2007 up to being a career year and assuming that 2008 is his true talent level. If you look at 2008 & 2009, the ISO & BB rate are comparable enough.
Francoeur supposedly “fell into his old habits” when he started slumping. Whos to say he even went to TP for help at all? Theres that old assumption again, assuming he is because TP is the team’s hitting coach. What if he’s trying to fix it on his own and not going outside for anything because he’s a blockheaded idiot?
Kotchman’s minor league numbers are skewed by the year he had in Rancho Cucamonga (a hitters paradise), and a hot year in 2004 where he BABIPed .396.
Just so you know, Kelly’s isoOBP hasn’t changed at all from 2008 to 2009. It’s distinctly possible that 2007 was a fluke.
Let’s analyze KJ’s decline since he worked with our horrible excuse for a hitting coach after the 2007 season.
Walk %
2005 12%
2007 13% wow nice!
2008 8.5%
2009 7.8%
Most disturbing stat:
Pitches per at bat
2005 4.13
2007 4.12
2008 3.76
2009 3.52 ugh
Terry and his patented “you need to be more aggresive” chats with our hitters is what is killing the Braves offense. Oppenent starters get way too deep in games because of their low pitch counts. There is no plan when the Braves hitters get up to the plate except to swing away. (except for Chipper and McCann of course who bloat the overall team stats to respectability) Gondee, great job with this post and I commend you for taking a stance.
Kelly himself said he didn’t want to hit leadoff because he hated taking pitches and liked to be more aggressive.
Wait...
What stat, exactly, tells you that he listens too much to Pendleton?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
This isn’t TP fault… you’re dead on… unfortunately this kind of logic seems to fall on deaf ears in moronville.
Bigger than logic
I get your stance, but the whole argument was basically about sending a message that this kind of performance is unacceptable. Personally, I think it’s time to send it higher than TP. It just frustrates the fuck out of me when we decide to sacrifice bunt on a knuckleballer instead of stealing. Add to that the fact that we generally are shit fundamentally, and that Bobby’s still running this team just waiting on a goddamn three-run homer, and we’re not a team that needs a “player’s manager”, I’m just ready to blow up the whole fucking thing.
by chantshuffler on Jun 27, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
1) “Francouer had to leave the organization to find help.” Really? You think he found help? I sure don’t. The fact that he went to one of the most reputed hitting coaches in the business and he STILL SUCKS ought to remove blame from Pendleton.
2) “Andruw Jones had to leave to get help.” You kidding? First, who was the hitting coach when he was hitting 40 and 50 home runs a year? That’s right…it was Pendleton. And once again, you think he really got help? Go check out his home/road splits and get back to me on that one.
3) “KJ has declined every year since his first full year in the majors.” Go check out his BABIP this year and get back to me on this one. Pendleton may not know how to coach hitting, but he DEFINITELY doesn’t know how to coach good luck.
4) “Kotchman is on pace for his worst offensive season yet.” True, but the 93 OPS+ he posted last year is not all so different from his 91 OPS+ this year. And if you want to nitpick over the mid-season trade, you can bet that he didn’t instantly become afflicted by Pendletonitis the second he was traded to Atlanta. If TP had a bad influence, it wouldn’t have shown up immediately.
5/6) “Chipper doesn’t go to TP for advice, and has admitted so. McCann doesn’t go to TP for advice, and has admitted so.” Right, because their fathers taught them everything they know about hitting and their fathers can help them fix what’s wrong better than anyone else. We could have the world’s greatest hitting coach and they would STILL go to their fathers for help. Tim Lincecum still goes to his dad for help and you don’t hear anyone using that against Dave Righetti.
Francouer STILL SUCKS!
Jones HITS IN TEXAS!
Johnson IS A BETTER FUNDAMENTAL HITTER THAN HE’S EVER BEEN!
Kotchman WAS HURT FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HIS CAREER!
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions
I did qualify my original statement by saying not everyone will agree with me, but I’m taking this stance, like it or not.
Too bad we don't run the Braves. I don't see anyone admitting to admit a connection to the failure.
"The future is no place to place your better days." - Dave Matthews ~ RIP Roi
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jun 27, 2009 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions
ha. i’m pissed.
“……….admitting a connection to the failure.”
"The future is no place to place your better days." - Dave Matthews ~ RIP Roi
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jun 27, 2009 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions
It should have a few years back, but I really think this is Bobby’s last year, We usually hear news of an extension by this point in the season and we haven’t heard anything yet.
I think Bobby's sticking around as long as Chipper is playing.
"The future is no place to place your better days." - Dave Matthews ~ RIP Roi
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jun 27, 2009 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Did you catch Chipper on Jim Rome?
Rome asked him if he’s thinking about making it to 20 years, and Chipper said definitely not, probably one or two more at the most. I say the solution is bring back the old-school player/coach and give Chipper Terry’s salary.
by chantshuffler on Jun 27, 2009 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Chipper will stay with the Braves in some capacity, but he’ll be playing fairly regularly for at least the next 2 seasons. Provided Omar is ok in a few weeks.
"The future is no place to place your better days." - Dave Matthews ~ RIP Roi
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jun 27, 2009 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions
And in all honesty, any other club would have fired him by now, anyway.
"The future is no place to place your better days." - Dave Matthews ~ RIP Roi
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jun 27, 2009 10:10 PM EDT reply actions
Really?
Francoeur did go to another hitting coach, one of the most highly regarded in baseball, this past offseason to try to fix his problems… and he’s still awful. He’s never been coachable and his potential has been overrated from the beginning.
The Ballpark at Arlington, not the Rangers hitting coach, is “fixing” Andruw (.224/.328/.429 on the road this year) and even that’s not going to help for long (April OPS of 1.304, May OPS of .773 and June OPS of .652). Let’s put it this way: would you want to trade for him at this point? If the answer to that question is yes, then you should get help…
Have you ever considered the possibility that Kelly Johnson just isn’t that good of a player? And, if Terry gets the blame for the wheels coming off of Johnson, where’s the credit for transforming Prado into a reasonable replacement in place already?
Kotchman has NEVER hit for power (career SLG of .408) and his stats – weighed down by his rocky return from the DL recently – are in line with his production last year. He too, might not be all that good and many of us here felt that way since we got him.
Like bigjoe pointed out above, the Braves (.258/.329/.389) are not that far from the NL average (257/.331/.405) and the difference can really be explained by our roster’s composition this year. Personally, I think coaching in MLB is grossly overrated and I don’t care for Terry either way, but this argument is weak at best. If you want to argue that they should fire him to shake things up, then go ahead – at least that wouldn’t be so easily exposed as false…
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
Would you not take Andruw over FUGA or FYF?
Seriously? For $500K?
by chantshuffler on Jun 28, 2009 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions
I Would Not...
Anderson (June): 301/.333/.425
Francouer (June): .247/.310/.364
Andruw (June): .167/.200/.452
Now, I’d bet that the only reason why his SLG is still that high is because of his home ballpark. So: no, I would not take Andruw over our current corner outfielders. Funny what just a little research can do…
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
I'll give you that
but Andruw’s played way less than FYF or FUGA (AJ- 38 games, 127 AB, FYF- 71, 269, FUGA-53,182) and has done more with his sample size. You brought up on the road. You’d have a leg to stand on if you were talking about road BA (.224 vs .256 at Arlington), but how about Francoueur and Anderson’s slugging? Andruw’s road slugging (.429) is higher than both our corner outfielders (.385 FUGA and .349 FYF). So, are those now meaningless stats?
Nevermind the fact that Andruw has 21 BB’s in far fewer plate appearances than our corner outfielders (21 for AJ, 12 FYF, 10 FUGA). Andruw’s also ahead in away OBP over both those clowns altogether (AJ .328 away OBP, .282 FYF, .310 FUGA). But you’re right, it’s obviously the ballpark.
I’m not saying that Andruw would be our savior, but what I am saying is: 1.) Maybe the hitting coach there actually earns his salary, 2.) He’s better than either of the stiffs we have in right and left, and 3.) You’re right, it is funny what a little research will do.
Happily supporting non-championship teams and self-medicating since 1996.
by chantshuffler on Jun 28, 2009 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Dude.
I don’t know why you insist on using season stats. You can see that Anderson has gotten better ever month, while Andruw has gotten worse. You also make the argument that Andruw would do just as well or better if he had more AB, but how did that work for Matt Diaz? All I know is that he was garbage at the end in Atlanta, worse in Los Angeles and a mirage in Texas.
I don’t want the guy anymore than I want what we have today because I’m not into making cosmetic changes. Change for the hell of change – the real force behind the fire TP movement – is just wrong.
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 28, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, very funny. So as to Jaramillo “earning his salary”:
The best Jarrod Saltalamacchia ever hit was in Atlanta
Chris Davis (he of the 952 minor-league OPS) has fallen completely on his face as a full-time starter.
Brandon Boggs has been a terrible hitter.
Rod Barajas, a good minor league prospect, never did anything in Texas.
I could go on…
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
BIGJOE!
High five, man. Thanks for fighting the good fight with me here for the moment. People seem to be lashing out completely emotionally, so it’s probably not the best idea for us to try to battle that with measely things like “facts” and “logic”. Whatevs…
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
Yeah, looks like we’re standing back to back with the angry horde oncoming. Ready your sword and shield sir, its going to be quite a fight…
Do you have room for a garbage man on your side?
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 28, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Also, one more note.
Offense for the ENTIRE NATIONAL LEAGUE is down. FOUR teams have an OPS+ above 100 (which is the ML average).
+1
I think this is something that everyone is missing. Offense is down everywhere this year and has been trending downward since 2007 or so. Does anyone else realize that 2008 was the first season in the majors since 1993 that there were more 20 game winners than 40 homer hitters. ;93 in my opinion was the last pure baseball season before steroids took over. Now we are trending back to what I consider ‘normal baseball’ people are struggling to regain a focus on what offensive numbers should be like vs the norm.
Bigjoe is right in that context is everything. We are in a weaker than (recently) normal offensive context (Albert Pujols aside) and we have to compare our team to that. Granted our offense is still near the bottom even in our context, but I think it is more a result of weak personnel than weak coaching. I think one more guy who could post .750+ OPS would make huge difference especially with FUGA hitting much better in recent weeks. I’m not necessarily sold that TP is the answer as our hitting coach but I’m also not sold that firing him is going to solve any immediate problems. I know we are talking doling out accountability but don’t you want some results too? Firing Pendleton won’t necessarily bring those. If it keeps up, fire him at the end of the season, but when we are only one piece away from solving the puzzle don’t start blaming those that aren’t obviously to blame. Send FYF back to the minors.
gondee, are you really serious? The only stat in your entire post is Terry Pendleton’s line, which you then compare to that of the team, saying, “It is a scarily similar line, and one that should not be unexpected.” Since when do you ever expect teams to post similar hitting lines to their hitting coaches? The New York Yankees lead the majors in OPS; their hitting coach posted a whopping .687 career OPS—in the MINORS. Kevin Long never even played in the MLB. I could go on, but I shouldn’t need to. Guys that can coach hitting are NOT necessarily the guys that could hit.
You then try a little cop-out with the next sentence: “I’m not saying that all hitting coaches teach what they themselves did as players, but this one certainly seems to be trending that way.” You make it sound like this is something that doesn’t always happen, but does happen sometimes and this is one of the times where it IS happening. But it doesn’t happen—like, ever. If there were any possible reason to imagine a causal connection between a hitting coach’s performance and his team’s performance, then perhaps you could get away with that. But making it sound like this happens all the time, and the Braves are just one more team where the team started hitting like the hitting coach did—that’s just not gonna fly.
Using stats
This may be another thread, but I’m on the fence about stats, for the most part. As a guy who studied a lot of statistics in college, and since, I’ve observed that one can use stats to prove just about any point they choose, so I don’t “mix-it-up” with the stats that often, and when I do, it’s usually biased.
The last several years have trended downward for the Braves offense. Is that TP’s fault, or is it the players he’s been given to work with, either way he’s the guy who is responsible for the performance of the hitters in Atlanta — and the buck has to stop somewhere.
I wasn’t trying to criticize you for not using more stats…if you don’t believe in stats, I’m not going to change your mind on that point. What I’m trying to say is that the one stat you did use is absolutely worthless. (This ironically shows that stats can’t be used to prove anything…as long as the audience takes the time to analyze the numbers themselves, it’s damned easy to point out a situation where stats are being misused.)
The buck does have to stop somewhere; I’m in agreement on that. But let’s figure out the best place for the buck to stop rather than just arbitrarily letting the buck run over Pendleton without also running over several of the players. Again, I’m not saying TP is blameless, and they could fire him tomorrow for all I care. But trying to pretend that firing him is a “solution” masks the fact that serious changes are needed on the roster as well.
Its not necessarily that TP needs to be fired, but that he needs to be replaced with someone better. Good coaches help players become better. TP hasn’t helped any of the Braves hitters become better. THATS why he needs to be replaced.
"This"
I think I used that Meme correctly. The argument that the hitters need to go is neither logical nor practical. The rotation of players through the door based on slumps or streaks is simply not a reality of the game for any payroll outside of the Yankees and Red Sox. To put the blame on the players because they are not hitting—their job—ignores that TP is not getting his hitters to hit—his job. Replacing TP as hitting coach allows for there to be a break in the status quo of going outside of the institutional instructors hired by the business to improve their players. To dismiss that players are not improving, or more importantly, are improving but not because of their own hitting coach’s coaching, questions the reasons for having that hitting coach position in the first place.
Last I checked...
The hitting coach can’t stand in the box for a worthless player like Francoeur or Hernandez.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes...
Because Omar Infante was a roaring success before he got here. Not to mention Matt Diaz.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Really?
You’re going to bring up a platoon player and a utility player as your argument. These guys succeed in limited playing time. And when they are forced to play on a regular basis you start to see a sharp decline. I think one thing other than pure talent that Major League hitters need to succeed is being able to adjust to the way pitchers are attacking them and that should be an area where a hitting coach is invaluable. The Braves hitters don’t seem to know what adjustments to make, so I think this is where TP is failing.
Firing TP will change nothing.
Our hitters suck. Some of this may be TP’s fault, but I’m mostly blaming it on Failcoeur and Johnson. If they both had returned to their original form, this would actually be a decent offense.
My two favorite football teams are the Bears and whoever's playing the Packers.
What this team needs
Is a bench-clearing brawl. It seems like every time a slumping team shakes things up like that, they suddenly get hot.
My two favorite football teams are the Bears and whoever's playing the Packers.
My God...
good news Atlanta fans, the Braves are showing signs of life for the first time in weeks.
/Harry Doyle and paraphrasing.
by chantshuffler on Jun 28, 2009 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Something needs to be done RIGHT now about this offense. No one is going to want to watch Braves baseball for the rest of the season with these pathetic sisters out there every night. I would be livid if I were Vasquez and Jurrjens right now having ERA’s under 3 with losing records. Wren needs to go for broke and get a Holiday SOMETHING to give some relief to our very frustrated pitching staff. After all this and still only 5 out, we could turn this around, with a real cleanup hitter? Want to put buts in the stands? Get a guy who can hit!!!! I am sick of this every night, and our pitchers are too!!
I would agree with your statement but I would be wary of a move similar to the Teixeira trade. What essentially we got was a trade of three prospects in exchange for Casey Kotchman. We don’t need a rash decision.
by nomorespinsports on Jun 28, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh Man...
Let’s not get into this here, but for your own good, take a look at what Matt Harrison, Jarrod Saltalamacchia and Elvis Andrus have done in Texas…
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
Don't you dare lump Andrus in there...
He’s played the third best defense at his position in the majors, and he’s hitting fine for any MI, much less a rookie.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Well...
I’m not sure if his defense is good enough to make up for the bat. And while he may well blossom into something more than Omar Vizquel, he just might not. Matt Harrison has been, predictably, garbage. And Salty has been, somewhat more surprisingly, a bit of a bust. Andrus underwhelms me overall, but I gotta say that I like the defense and speed. They all have time to turn things around or develope further, whatever the case may be, but as of now, they haven’t done much. By the way, is it just me, or are Neftali Feliz’s numbers starting to come back down to Earth in AAA now? And is Beau Jones even much of a prospect anymore? I’m just saying, we were supposed to rue the day we made that trade and, ever since then, it’s look better and better for us, I think…
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
Seriously?
You’re upset with a 713 OPS from a rookie who plays shortstop?
Also, Feliz is a 21-year-old in AAA. Not many kids that age are even AT that level, much less pitching relatively well.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Bobby should give it up
I love Bobby Cox and I think he’s the third best coach in the league, arguably, obviously, but my knock against him is his laid back style which fails in postseason play and fails with young inexperienced players. I love him I love him I love him but right now we can’t win with him. If we had all of Boston’s players we’d be easily the best team in the league, but we don’t and we need a coach that can communicate better with this generation’s players.
I haven’t lost confidence in Bobby, it’s just that we need a super motivator. These players need someone who will get right in their faces and tell them what they need to do. Or trade for an all-veteran team.
Take care of the little things, and the big things will take care of themselves.
Screaming at players really is the best way to get through to them.
Really.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions
You're right
Sitting back and doing nothing obviously works wonders.
by chantshuffler on Jun 28, 2009 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Obviously
Thats why the Braves have won so many world series in the past 14 years.
Oh wait….
60% of the time, it works every time
Aha...
So it must be those fiery managers who gets in their players’ faces who get results. Outside of Guillen, who fitting that profile has won a WS lately?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not saying it's gotta be some fire-breathing guy
I just don’t think Bobby’s the guy that’s going to bring this group together, and being that they’re a relatively young group that seems entitled (especially considering Yunel and FYF), I’d take my chances with someone that puts a little fucking fear in them. I will say that I’m glad Bobby sat Yunel after his latest hissyfit, but that’s not his usual M.O.
Happily supporting non-championship teams and self-medicating since 1996.
by chantshuffler on Jun 28, 2009 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s not about screaming at players, but getting their attention, so you’re right Chants, THESE players need a little fear. They have to know if they’re not gonna play the right way, if they’re not gonna play well, they’re gonna be on the bench or out the door. Sit Jeff on the bench for a week, it can’t hurt us anymore than his bat has, and see if he can’t get a wake up call. Try something DIFFERENT for a change. Yunel is our best hitter and he got benched for his defensive lapses, shouldn’t it work the other way too, on the bat side?
Take care of the little things, and the big things will take care of themselves.
I’m confused re Chipper’s statement about playing one or two more years and that would be it. He did just sign a 3 year extension right?
About Terry
I thought it interesting, but maybe it doesn’t matter, that Jeff and Kelly were good right away (early in their careers) but they aren’t now, and that means pitchers adjusted to them and they never adjusted to the pitchers’ adjustments. I think that’s a clear reflection of the hitting coach’s abilities. Isn’t he supposed to be the objective point of view, to help the hitter see the things it’s difficult for the hitter to see?
Take care of the little things, and the big things will take care of themselves.
Yeah, but you can’t always teach hitters infinite adjustments. Francoeur has no plate discipline—never did, doesn’t now and likely never will. You could force him to watch lots more pitches, but that could easily mess with his approach to the extent that he would lose his ability to hit the good ones. Hitting is a fine balance, and you can’t always make all kinds of adjustments without throwing something else off. Frenchy just isn’t a major-league hitter…his ONLY GOOD YEAR was 2005, and that was quite obviously a fluke.
As for Johnson, it’s not hard to imagine that 2007 was something of a fluke, and if you look at it, 2008 and 2009 are actually quite similar except for a giant drop in BABIP.
I'm not sure firing TP is the solution...
to our hitting problems. Yes, he is responsible for teaching batters to hit & short of batting for them, he’s doing the best he can. It’s not really TP’s fault if they don’t wanna be patient at the plate and swing at garbage pitches. Having said that, if anybody needs to go, it’s Bobby Cox who’s going soft.
A-fucking-men, Gondee
All these people saying “stat this, ratio that, nl average this” are missing the point. The Braves offense has sucked, and NO ONE has gotten better under TPs watch. Most other franchises get the point, and make a statement by firing someone accountable to prove that change must be made. The Braves are so fucking stuck on loyalty and hanging on to these bullshit excuse for coaches that they lose track of the fact that they are here to win, and for this team to win, it needs to be changed from the top down. Bobby and TP need to go.
60% of the time, it works every time
Totally right...
Diaz was an awesome hitter for KC and TB. Infante was a stud in DET. McCann was the best hitting catcher in the NL from the day he was called up.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Three useless examples.
Diaz never had more than 89 AB before he came to Atlanta
Infanta was pretty respectable his last few years in DET
McCann was a rookie, that doesnt even apply. Francoeur came up at the same time, why not mention him?
If all you have as a defense is a slight improvement in a role player, you are grasping at straws.
60% of the time, it works every time
"NO ONE has gotten better under TPs watch"
But hey, don’t worry about things like saying what you mean or meaning what you say.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions
No one important enough to actually help this team get better. Two role players have upped their numbers. Woopty-fucking-do.
This isn’t about grabbing one line from my post or naming off stats of bench players. Its about it being time for a change. The time has been long overdue.
60% of the time, it works every time
MichaelProcton
Its quite funny that you mentioned Diaz. Look at his AAA numbers for KC the last year before he made it to the majors with the Braves. Then look at his numbers in the Rays minors before then, yeah i think he knew how to hit BEFORE Pendleton and BEFORE he came to the Braves. Royals just gave up on him too early because he was at the age of 27. McCann doesn’t even go to Pendleton now so i dont see Pendleton havin nothin to do with his success.
Im not here sayin we should or shouldn’t fire Pendleton, personally i say give him and this staff the rest of the season to try to get stuff goin then i say if it ends the same way as it has the last few years then start cleanin house. Dont renew Cox, get rid of Pendleton, get rid of the bench coach. Get rid of whatever else that they think should go. And in the offseason try to find a Manager, Hitting Coach, and Bench Coach, let Anderson go back into FA, dont renew Frenchy and THEN go from there. Im not sayin its all the coaches fault cause clearly the players have to perform but i think a cleanin house is necessary for the betterment of future of this team.
braves#1
Diaz
Biggest aspect about Diaz hitting was we gave him an eye exam when he got to Atlanta. Turns out he needed contacts.
That will do wonders
just look at Mac and his new glasses
by drumzalicious on Jun 28, 2009 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Whatever TP has been doing, HASN'T BEEN WORKING! FIRE HIM!
I am sick of people defending him. Obviously, whatever work he does with these guys ISN’T cutting it. I don’t know what all that entails, but a MAJOR MOVE and/or MOVES HAVE TO BE MADE, NOW! Changing the batting order hasn’t done it, sitting players out for a game hasn’t done it, and saying “Oh, we’ll snap out of it” won’t do it. Also, I am sick of watching Francoeur trying to hit balls way out of the strike zone. He will not improve because he like “Porky” Jones who I hated, are STUBBORN! DO SOMETHING, FOR GOD’S SAKE, WREN and COX!
"The Team of NO ADJUSTMENTS"
It’s been obvious for years…I mean. what IS Pendelton’s approach? Aggressive at-bats? Go deep in the count? Who Knows? It’s different all the time, but what is not changing is the complete LACK of situational hitting AND power! They MUST lead the league in DPs.
It was a mistake when the Braves brought him back in ‘96 as their DH – except he couldn’t “H” to save his life, and it’s a mistake to keep him around now.
The Braves offense has too many holes to fix, but Pendleton HAS to go! He IS the HITTING COACH and the team is NOT hitting! Simple as that. Why? Because other teams know exactly how to pitch to the Braves – they know the Braves CANNOT/WILL NOT make adjustments. I’ll Prove it: Mclouth – pitch him up and he’ll chase. Kelly Johnson – sliders down and in. McCann – Same thing. Francoeur – Low and away. Diaz – again up and in. Anderson(when he’s awake) – middle away. And so on…
by Played with Blondie on Jun 28, 2009 1:54 AM EDT reply actions
When did the Braves have a DH in 1996?
by nomorespinsports on Jun 28, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Last I checked...
Pendleton hit better in a lot fewer ABs than Lemke, Lopez, and Dye in that WS.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
hitting
Braves havent hit since Don Baylor was the batting coach or Merv Rettingham or whatever his name is .
SOMEONE is a complete moron that didn’t look at my BH article that showed all sorts of pretty graphs
Man...
People don’t care about facts. Why, when they can lean on their truthiness in this echo-chamber? God, I hate the Internets sometimes…
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
Well.
In regards to FYF, the guy obviously tried to fix his stuff all last year with Pendelton, it didnt work so he went to Texas.
Came back, started 2009 pretty good. Afterwards hit a slump that was about a month long and has started progressing as of late.
In regards to KJ. I’m not to sure. I think a lot of us got caught up in seeing what he did at the end of the year translate into a full season but didnt really think about the fact that that expectation could be a little too high. I just hope whatever he is going through works itself out.
Kotchman should never be equated and or judged by Power Numbers. He is like a young GA. He will hardly hit more than 10 HR’s in a season and is more of a Line Drive hitter and a doubles guy. If you recall he was smokin hot before he got injured. now he is coming back from injury and trying to get back into the swing of things. I figure sometime within the next week he will heat it up a bit.
In regards to the rest of the team.
I just find it interesting that our best hitters (Chipper, McCann, Escobar) dont go to TP for advice. While our worst (KJ and FYF) do.
You could say that KJ and FYF plain out suck but i dont believe that. Both of those guys have some talent and i just believe that their learning styles may conflict with TP’s teaching styles.
In regards to TP. I do think there needs to be some accountability. If he is the hitting coach he should be in these guys faces about not taking pitches and working the count. You can argue all you want that we walk more with TP BUT the fact of the matter remains we still have players swinging at first pitches and they arent just FYF.
How do i know he isnt in their faces? Because they are still doing it.
I mean if they are going to fire someone then yes i believe he will be the first scapegoat/target. However i would be just as satisfied if there was some article to come out talking about how he jumped on everyone about 1st pitch swinging. i mean the other night one of our pitchers (I believe it was J. J.) put a better AB than anyone on the team and that would be embarrassing to me if i were a player.
So anyhow. Someone needs to do something with this offense and constantly trading for players isnt the answer.
Wait...
So every player in history has changed what they were doing the moment their coach got angry with them about it?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Last time i checked
in sports you listen to your coach. otherwise you get benched, fined, or whatever other consequence.
so you would think that your coach telling you something to do you would do it
by drumzalicious on Jun 28, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
You didn't say that.
You said, quite specifically, that a coach not only needed to give them information to help correct issues, but they need to “get in their face.”
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
i said
that TP needs to be accountable for his offense swinging at alot of first pitches.
by drumzalicious on Jun 29, 2009 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions
This whole team, outside of the Starters, Gonzo, Soriano, McLouth, Esco, Chipper and BMac are all garbage.
KJ and FYF are pathetic.
FUGA is a washed up bum who is the biggest waste of $2.5 million i’ve seen in a while. Fuck, put me in LF. I would at least back up the play.
Some of our relievers are morons. Jeff Bennett, on an 0-2 pitch to Alex F’ing Rodriguez threw a 92 mph fastball right down the middle of the plate with bases loaded. Even my aunt, a 61 year old 3rd grade teacher, asked me why the hell he would throw a ball down the middle on an 0-2 pitch. Its just unexcusable.
Im giving up on the Braves for a while. Im thinking a 2 week break sounds good. No TC, blogging, watching the games, etc etc etc. Who knows, maybe we’ll win 10 outta 14 or something. Or maybe we’ll keep suckin the D like we have all week and fall 10 games behind whichever garbage team is in 1st in the East.
I encourage any of you to join me in the break from the Braves. They’re a waste of my 3 hours each day. For the longest time i’d turn down something to do so i could watch the Braves just so i could see them lose 1-0 and leave 10 guys on base. Fuck that.
See ya in 2 weeks TC members.
AB: Jeff Francoeur
Pitching: Any pitcher in MLB
Runners: Escobar at 3rd, Chipper at 2nd, McCann at 1st.
Pitch 1: In play, out(s)
Hmmm...
I’d add a couple of other guys (Medlen, O’Flats, Moylan, Prado, Infante, Ross…) so that would make most of the team.
P.S.: Anderson is doing fine in June, man. Seriously, look it up. Stats don’t bite.
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
I agree with a lot of statements nad I disagree with a lot, but there has to br acountability here. Either players have to br DFA outright released or coaches need to be fired. Something has to happen here it’s really snowballing at this point. IMO firing TP is the right answer.
Proof that when posting while high or intoxicated can lead to some really funny posts
by bravesrbaseball on Jun 28, 2009 9:58 AM EDT reply actions
You're too smart for this kind of shrill hogwash, gondee.
And here’s what Terry Pendleton did to fashion the 2003 Braves team in his image: OBP: .349 SLG: .475 OPS: .824
You really think his skills as a hitting coach are that much worse now? Or that he got along with Sheff, Giles and Furcal but not Frenchy and KJ?
Yeah...
I’ve noticed a distinct and sad change in tone around here and I don’t like it. It seems emotions have boiled over and clouded minds…
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
I totally agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fire him today!!!! The Braves still have a chance but something has to be done now!! Come on Frank, Grow a set and fire him!!!!! If he hadnt been a hero back in the 90’s then he would have already been fired!!! Enough is enough!!!
Roll Tide Roll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by Sabanholic on Jun 28, 2009 10:30 AM EDT reply actions
The Braves still have a chance? I really don’t see why I should believe that.
by nomorespinsports on Jun 28, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
because
our offense is severely underperforming and we are only 5 games out…in june…and we have one of the best pitching staffs in the game…
want more reasons?
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 28, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Plus, this year we’re not the only team in the division with guys on the DL. I like us going into the later part of the season, assuming we can stay within a few games and just start f-ing hitting, because our pitching should hold strong, or at least healthy.
"When life gives you lemons, just say 'F*ck the lemons,' and bail."
by Bravely going forward on Jun 28, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting reading...
And those of you who have read my posts know without a doubt that my knowledge of the ins and outs of stats and baseball is limited, so I’ll not even attempt to make a point with stats.
What I do see as a baseball fan with limited knowledge of the nuances of the game is….
…our team isn’t inspired. Simple as that. Now, somebody needs to be the leadership and take on that role. Since the glaring missing component of most of our losses this year has been OFFENSE, logic would say that that’s where the scrutiny needs to lie first. TP may be a wonderful man and have a sound philosophy for hitting (however I personally think his approach is a bit too aggressive) – but for this group of players, on this team it’s not working.
I read above that the stats for all of the NL is down. I get that. But, still teams are finding a way to actually WIN ballgames in the NL with less overall offense….so why can’t we?
A large part of that is we’re not doing the fundamentals to manufacture runs. Someone said above we have the old mindset of waiting on the 3-run homer, but unfortunately we don’t have nor are we willing to pay for those players so we’re gonna have to find a way to score enough runs to win ballgames with what we’ve got.
I don’t have the answer,I think our problems are organization wide, but if you gotta start somewhere, just maybe a new hitting coach will motivate others to want to keep their job.
"Well behaved women rarely make history" ~ Laurel Ulrich
If a group of 25 men being paid nearly $100 million collectively to play a game needs to be "inspired..."
They need to find a new occupation.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
That may be true individually, after all it’s a bunch of men playing a game – but to play collectively as a “team” they have to inspire each other to play their best and execute on behalf of the team as a whole.
Like the poster below me said, a lot of the time they simply look disinterested.
"Well behaved women rarely make history" ~ Laurel Ulrich
Oh...
And as for that “not doing the fundamentals jazz…”
We’re right on the league averages for:
Sacrifice % (70% to 71%)
Productive out % (33% Braves and league average)
Scoring runners on 3rd w/less than two outs (53% to 51%)
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
And as of today, we’re 0-24 with RISP and counting.
We won today, but by 1 long balls. We need to support our pitching with consistent offense and less sloppy defense then we’ve shown lately.
What are our JUNE numbers? I’ll be they ain’t perty.
"Well behaved women rarely make history" ~ Laurel Ulrich
Riddle me this
How many teams that make the play off’s play league average anything?
by drumzalicious on Jun 28, 2009 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
The statement has been made over and over...
That they “don’t do the fundamentals.” If they’re doing them at the league-average rate (or better), it’s quite clear that’s simply not true.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
The 08 Rays offense?
the 08 Phillies SP?
most of our 14 division title offenses?
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 28, 2009 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions
point taken
the point i was trying to make was that we cant expect to win anything like our division much less a WS playing average.
by drumzalicious on Jun 29, 2009 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Wait...
Didn’t he just point out the most recent WS champion having had a major part of their team (the starting pitching) at or below league average?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 29, 2009 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions
but their offense was well above average.
when i say playing average that includes everything not just pitching. we already know our pitching is above average but it doesnt matter if they have to throw a shut out every game to have a chance at winning.
with an anemic offense like that we wont win anything.
by drumzalicious on Jun 29, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
How many teams that make the play off’s play league average anything?
That statement kinda hints towards an idea that a team cannot win anything with a league average anything – to include pitching, which we pointed out is not true. The Phillies won a WS with league average (at best) pitching and a great offense.
The point here is that historically there is no reason to think that we cannot win anything with a superior pitching staff and league-average offense.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 30, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
This team...
Just looks bored and disinterested to me.
Diaz and McCann are pretty much the only ones who looks disappointed when they fail in a key situation. The others, when they fail to come through, just shrug and walk away.
um...
no. not at all. Kotchman, Yunel and KJ all look pretty pissed when they fail. The only ones who don’t look pissed are Chipper and FUGA. Do you really think that Chipper isn’t pissed off right now?
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 28, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I think Chipper is more mad about his recent slump rather than the team’s performance. Maybe I’m a bit harsh, but that’s how I see it.
by nomorespinsports on Jun 28, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
That's what i am talking about
these guys get mad at themselves. They show emotion.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 28, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
respectfully disagree
But I don’t recall ever seeing Kotchman show much emotion and I’ve seen it out of Johnson before but not this year. Escobar I should have included in my statement, but Esco gets emotional about everything.
Can you honestly say that you think you see an adequate amount of passion from this team? If so I’d love to know where you’re seeing it.
I think Kotchman
shows plenty of emotion when he slaps his bat or slams it down after striking out…but, maybe he should turn around in the batters box and go ape-shit on the ump…would that be enough?
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 28, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, it’s when he pops it up. he gets pissed as shit and trots really slowly.
"When life gives you lemons, just say 'F*ck the lemons,' and bail."
by Bravely going forward on Jun 28, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
What defines "an adequate amount of passion?"
When the Yankees were winning WS every other year, they weren’t jumping up and down like little girls after every win.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
there are a lot of newbies in this thread… Gondee your posts always seem to channel the new guys ( i do not mean to imploy a connection in these coincidences)
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Apparently...
You attract more flies with vinegar than honey…
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
Damn. I forgot to raise my hand for permission to speak.
Tenure doesn’t always mean a more valid point of view.
"Well behaved women rarely make history" ~ Laurel Ulrich
Relax.
Nowhere in his post does he discredit the comments of new posters. He’s merely pointing out the fact that this post has a lot of newer members active in it. So relax, man. No one here is calling you out for your sign-up date…
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
I’m always relaxed, but thanks for your advice.
I see you chose the vinegar instead of honey approach yourself.
I’m not trying to pick a fight, honestly I’m not. My feeble attempt at humorous sarcasm obviously didn’t relay well. Oh well, nice you have his back I guess.
"Well behaved women rarely make history" ~ Laurel Ulrich
I certainly didn't read it that way, either.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude.
Apologies if I ruffled your feathers. Sarcasm doesn’t do well on the Internet.
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
Gondee
This was very surprising coming from you. It definitely comes across as a knee-jerk reaction. I just can’t see how firing TP (who has shown some real success in the past) will do anything to fix FYF’s miserable excuses for at-bats, or make FUGA hustle in the field, or snap Chippers slump, or make hurt players better, or fix our struggling middle-relief corps, or figure out what is wrong with KJ.
I just think we need to be patient, acquire that all-important bat and move on from there. We have the team to compete. We are just missing one piece. We have lost 11 games by 1 run and quite a few more by just 2 or 3 runs. One batter can make up that difference. We have arguably the best SP in the NL with arguably one of the best back-end bullpens. We just need that elusive bat, and we should see a dramatic turnaround.
Nobody needs to be fired (except FYF) just yet.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 28, 2009 11:22 AM EDT reply actions
True.
Hindsight might be 20/20, but sports shortsightedness makes you fucking blind…
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
Forget the “All-Important Bat”
If everyone on this team would step up consistently and TOGETHER we would win games.
I mean one day the top half sucks and the bottom half is rockin.
the next day its the opposite
there needs to be consistency. the time of patience and arguing that we have “X” amount of games left is over. people just need to step up consistently and thats that. there is no excuse for being shut out so many times or losing by only scoring one run especially off pitchers like Livian Hernandez
by drumzalicious on Jun 28, 2009 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I can't say I disagree
but even if everyone steps up, we still need to get a new RF.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 28, 2009 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions
i disagree.
If FYF continues this current trend and improving and rests around a .700 OPS we should be fine if everyone else is playing good.
by drumzalicious on Jun 29, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Really?
You’d be happy with a 700 OPS from a corner OF whose defense is below average?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 29, 2009 2:09 AM EDT up reply actions
correction
sub .700 ops…
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 29, 2009 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions
not really happy but i would accept it
he would not be an outright Black Hole, but he would be decent.
As i said if EVERYONE ELSE was doing good then it wouldnt really hurt us as bad but now because not everyone is doing to hot at the same time it hurts us more. if everyone played consistently at the levels they are capable at and FYF stayed around .700 then i could deal with it.
by drumzalicious on Jun 29, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
So by the same token...
Kelly would be fine at 650 if everybody else was doing well? I think we should hope for better.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 29, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I was including Kelly
In the statement of everyone else playing to their potential
which would put kelly at his career .770ish OPS.
by drumzalicious on Jun 29, 2009 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Fire TP
I wanted to chime in to back you up on this. TP doesn’t have the confidence of the players. It isn’t his fault, but he isn’t the solution. And if you’ve heard the man talk about baseball he’s not the sort of guy to lead this team. I’m afraid if we don’t fire him he’d be next in line to take over as manager.
According to what?
Have the players told you this?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
MicaelProcton
You are such a damn TROLL. Must you argue and question every single member on every single thread? You are ridiculous. I dont agree with every single person on here but you dont see me arguin with them or askin them some kind of damn question on every little thing on every single thread. Wow thats all i can say. Seems like EVERY single thing that you dont agree with somebody you question every single member that you dont agree with on EVERY SINGLE THREAD. Nobody else does this on here but you. Not the way your doin it. You are a very sad individual.
braves#1
Aha...
So I should be making personal attacks rather than questioning people for the merits of their statements? Got it. I’ll go by your shining example from now on.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I never said make personal attacks. Is it totally necessary to question every single person’s statement? And i never said i was perfect on here. I just dont see the need in goin to every single thread and doin what your doin. Its absurd. I mean you can do what you want on here but to me it just seems ridiculous. I mean it seems like every statement i make you say somethin about whether you know what your talkin about or not. Your doin that to everybody, thats ridiculous to keep doin that. Your a Troll, bottom line. You dont have to argue with every single person you dont agree with. Trust me there are plenty of times i dont agree with folks on here, you dont see me arguin with every single one of them on every single thread. Its cool that your reading up on comments and stuff but is it totally necessary to do what you have been doin?
braves#1
If YOU make the CHOICE not to reply, that's your prerogative.
If I make the CHOICE to do so, that’s mine. What about you calling me names changes that?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m gonna call you on this Michael since I had to delete content from you last week for calling someone a Dick.
I knew it would get warned...
It was a one-time deal, and I wasn’t actually making a personal attack. I was just making a point. I’ve seen similar stuff go untouched, but those people probably don’t “already annoy you enough” as you so nobly pointed out to explain the aforementioned deletion.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 29, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I was pretty sure we eliminated the system of Nobility around the time feudalism went by by, but whatever floats your boat. Also calling someone a ‘troll’ vs a ‘dick’ are on two different levels. It also makes you a bit easier to find when you post 200-300 times a day.
So what level would it be if I called someone a:
“Douchebag”
“dimwit”
“fool”
“goober”
“idiot” (multiple times)
“fool”
“moron”
“bum”
“dickless loser”
“douche”
“mr. dildo salesman” (I actually think that one’s pretty cute, myself)
or referred to them as:
“ultra dickish”
a “garbage man”
or referred to their:
“miserable life [they] must lead”
“cromagnon brain”
significant other’s capacity (or lack thereof) for “mate selection”
position with Kelly Johnson’s “balls deep in [their] throat”
Just asking. Because there’s only one poster on here who’s not only written one, or a few, or even most, but all of those things. In the last four days!
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 29, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
That's one down...
THE HUNT CONTINUES!
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 29, 2009 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I am pretty sure I have never called anyone any of those, so I am out too…wait, does it count if i have been called several of those?
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 30, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
HAHAHA
if this were 2 months ago, before you were temporarily a mod, I bet you would be in the running here.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 30, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
This...
is a little uncalled for…
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 28, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree
making it personal is ridiculous.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 28, 2009 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions
well there are quite a few people that make it personal. name calling etc.
by drumzalicious on Jun 29, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm certainly not one of them.
And we really shouldn’t resort to “two wrongs make a right” logic. I’d hope people around here are more mature than that.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 29, 2009 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions
well i would hope ppl around here were more mature as to not call people out their names
guess i was wrong on that one as well
by drumzalicious on Jun 29, 2009 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Wrong.
This is uncalled for. If the guy wants to ask questions, then he can ask questions. He’s not calling anyone names or trying to get a rise out of people. As far as I can tell, he’s just trying to get people to back up their statements with some logic or facts. Others haven’t responded like this to him and I don’t think it’s cool for you to. If you don’t want to argue with him, then don’t. Still, that doesn’t give you the right to call him a troll because he clearly is not.
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
Thanks.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Have the players told you that TP is a great coach
and that they are just underperforming?
Have the players told you they have utmost confidence in their hitting coach?
i mean really.
by drumzalicious on Jun 28, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn't make those claims.
The one I refuted has been made OVER AND OVER>
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
i agree...
with this post and TP should be gone….with the recent adaption of getting rid of long time braves…..(#29,#47)…..this shouldn’t be a problem….FW seems to me to be the kind of person to take care of this sort of problem….
'09 NL East: 1.Braves 2.Phils 3.Mets 4.Marlins 5. Nats
by lemke2blauser2bream on Jun 28, 2009 5:25 PM EDT reply actions
Wasn't there a thread by a non-mod to the exact same effect like 2 days ago?
If I recall, that post got summarily deleted for whatever reason. This thread is no better, yet it gets to stay b/c gondeee wrote it?
Posters can delete their own threads
I have done that to myself a couple of times. Also, threads can get deleted based on the content of them in the posts, not necessarily the thread post itself.
And yes, Gondee, as the “owner” of this site can post whatever he wants without any repercussions.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 28, 2009 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Gondee
While I appreciate your frustration with the Braves offense and your passion to get this team back on the winning track, I think you calling for the firing of TP is way off base. I’m not a TP defender but I do defend people when they are being attacked unnecessarily. Your basic premise is OK when you say that someone needs to be held accountable for the offensive failures but who are you to decide that that person is TP? You, nor anyone else on here, has any clue as to his true impact on this team. The only people that know his impact are those in the organization, and (shock!) they are the ones responsible for making the decision you are calling for if it were to be made. I’m sorry but there is zero hard evidence that TP should be fired so your feeble attempts to create some fall way short. Also interesting, I find it ironic that you throw blame on TP for teaching HIS hitting style to the players and yet most of the arguments against him here are that players aren’t listening to his advice. Well which one is it? The point is it’s impossible to know his impact so please stop trying.
"You throw blame on TP for teaching HIS hitting style to the players and yet most of the arguments against him here are that players aren’t listening to his advice. Well which one is it?"
THIS.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 29, 2009 10:34 AM EDT reply actions
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