2010 Braves Payroll: Food For Thought.
Hello everyone! It's been a while since I posted anything beyond the odd comment here or there, so I thought I'd get back into the habit of extending my two cents into FanPosts all of their own. I know that "rosterbating" is now expressly forbidden here, but I don't believe this particular piece falls exactly into that category. While there may be some editorializing on my part about impending roster moves, the weight of this post will be the simple consolidation of information regarding our payroll in 2010 as it may pertain to potential trades, signings and promotions. I've done my best to cull the "Internets" for the correct contract information (a special thanks Cot's Baseball Contracts!) but I'm fully prepared to be wrong, so feel free to point out any mistakes of that nature in the comments. And so, without further ado, please follow me below the fold.
Is our highest paid player hiding his cash in his jersey on the mound?
(via www.reflector.com)
The Braves currently have eight players already under contract for the 2010 season. They are: catcher Brian McCann ($5.5M), third baseman Chipper Jones ($13M), outfielder Nate McLouth ($4.5M), back-up catcher David Ross ($1.6M), utility man Omar Infante ($2.225M), plus starting pitchers Derek Lowe ($15M) , Javier Vazquez ($11.5M) and Kenshin Kawakami ($6.667M). These guys are slated to receive nearly $60M for their efforts next year, an increase of nearly $6.1M over what they'll make in 2009. At very least, each of them is worth the salaries they'll get.
Options ($12,000,000)
Wouldn't it be nice to see this again all season long in 2010... but can we afford it?
(via www.elitefts.com)
Atlanta has but one contract option decision to make, but it's a huge one. Starting pitcher Tim Hudson - coming off of greaet work in 2007-08, "Tommy John" surgery this past offseason and presumably a little action later this season - could remain a Brave for an additional year at the fair price of $12M or be sent on his way at the cost of his $1M buyout. In other words, for the mere net cost of $11M for a single season's commitment, the Braves could have their previous ace back in their uniform for 2010. On the other hand, there is a bit of a logjam in the rotation already, glaring voids elsewhere in the roster and times are tough economically. Nevertheless, the old adage is that you can never have too much [good] pitching and he can definitely add to the stable in Atlanta if he's healthy and right. Just for context, he was under contract for $13M in 2009, an undisclosed (?) percentage of which has been presumably picked up by insurance.
Arbitration ($16,800,000)
Check out that bat's uncanny impression of Frenchy's status as a prospect!
via cache.daylife.com
This is by far the most difficult part of projecting payroll. This nebulous process leaves many of us fans so far in the dark as to shock us with its results sometimes. That said, it's a key component of this discussion, so I'll do my best here. I estimate arbitration figures as increasing salary 50% from year one to year two and 25% from year two to year three. I am admittedly utterly useless at guesstimating players upcoming salaries for the first time in the system, but I try my best by searching for similar guys and their awards in recent years. The Braves have as many as six guys up for this in 2010 and they are: first baseman Casey Kotchman, second baseman Kelly Johnson, right fielder Jeff Francoeur, outfielder Matt Diaz, plus relief pitchers Peter Moylan and Jeff Bennett. There are a few guys on that list that are less than likely to remain in Atlanta past this season (if for that long, even) and while I'd be more than happy to let most of them go, I have to estimate them all here to be fair and complete. I have Kotchman at $3.6M, Johnson at $4.2M, Francouer at $5M, Diaz at $1.5M, Moylan at $1.5M and Bennett at $1M. Such salaries would represent an increase of about $5.7M over what these same players make this year. If you can improve on these guesses, then by all means, be my guest; just remember that this is the same system that essentially and inexplicably rewarded Frenchy's failure thus far in the majors to the tune of $3.375M just last year.
Renewals ($4,500,000)
The future is now!
via classic17.files.wordpress.com
Prior to arbitration, which comes only after two or three years of MLB service time depending on production and the timing of their promotions, players must play for whatever amount their respective teams desire to pay them. That number is usually insignificantly greater than the league minimum, which is $400,000 in 2009 and likely to increase only marginally. For this exercise, I will consider $450,000 the average salary for Atlanta's pre-arbitration players. The guys that fit that bill and are almost certainly assured of roster spots next year barring anything exceptional occurring between now and then are: shortstop Yunel Escobar, infielder Martin Prado, plus pitchers Jair Jurrjens, Tommy Hanson, Kris Medlen, Eric O'Flaherty and Manny Acosta. More could be brought up to replace departing free agents or players likely to be dropped via other means, but such guesswork could be tricky. The final number could be as high as ten or as low as zero, but I'll use three (so as to refuse to speculate on incoming free agents or trading for veteran players making more money to fills gaps in the roster). That leaves our total for this portion of the payroll at ten earning $450K for nearly $4.5M altogether.
Subtotal ($93,292,000)
The good news is that 25 players are accounted for above. The bad news is that they aren't all as good as we'd hope for. The pricetag of around $93M seems to be right about what Liberty Media is willing to spend on these Atlanta Braves, but they could surely do better than what's been detailed here. The bullpen would be decimated by the departures of superb relievers Rafael Soriano and Mike Gonzalez; the team could also benefit from addition by subtraction with the departures of Francoeur, Johnson and Bennett. Moreover, guys like Diaz and perhaps even Kotchman and/or Moylan (not my prefence, but it could perhaps be argued for and I'm open to anything) could have their respective salaries put to better use. Our rotation is already quite solid and could be incredible with at least six enviable options in Vazquez, Lowe, Kawakami, Jurrjens, Hanson and Hudson. One of those could obviously be flipped in a trade or reassigned into the bullpen, both of which should be considered.
I have to say, I like this team, but it needs some work. The posibilities are infinite and intriguing. That is why I present this to you, so we can debate the merits of our options and consider all of this when looking at decisions to be made this year and next offseason. I hope the powers that be here at Talking Chop allow this post to stand and join in on the fun of discussing it. Thanks for taking the time to read this admittedly long post and I hope you also do so to comment on it. Go Braves!
P.S.: This is my first try at inserting images and I'm quite obviously not very good at it. If you find them annoying or otherwise bothersome, I'd be happy to remove them. If you have any advice on how I may make better use of them (how do you get the writing to go beside a pic to fill out the empty spaces in the article, resize them, reorient them within the article, etc.) then please include that in a seperate post from that of your comment on content. Thanks again!
13 recs |
175 comments
Comments
Well done!
You have a knack for this sort of stuff.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 25, 2009 5:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks!
I’d love it if you could take a moment to chime in on the 2010 roster as well. Would you keep Huddy? Who do you non-tender? Who do you target in free agency and/or trade market? Thanks for the compliment, though!
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 25, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My $0.02
If I had to make a decision between Hudson and Vasquez, I would keep Vasquez. The rumors are wide-spread that we want to trade him (either soon or during the offseason).
So, no, given the state of our SP (and the abundance of not just SP, but GOOD SP), I would not exercise Hudson’s option. That being said, I would try to negotiate with him for a much smaller salary.
As far as targeting Free Agents, I would make a hard run at Jason Bay. I have a huge mancrush on that guy. He is one of the few players in the game that I would not mind spending the big bucks on. Not picking up Hudson’s option, non-tendering FYF and other minor changes could free up enough to bring Bay in (with a big end-loaded contract). Remembering that we will have much more money coming off the books in the next 2-3 years (Lowe, Vasquez, Chipper, KK, etc) would allow us to end-load a contract to Bay.
Or at least, in my mind, all of that makes sense.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 25, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hudson
Assuming Hudson’s Aug/Sept audition is halfway decent, I think picking up his option is a no-brainer. At the very least, he becomes a useful trade chip in the offseason.
by Yakker on Jun 25, 2009 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with that
but as it stands right now, he is an unknown, and coming off of that surgery, I’d rather have JV at the moment.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 25, 2009 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure
Assuming you have to choose between Vasquez and Hudson, JV is the obvious choice. But why choose? Going in to the offseason with 6 pretty d*mn good starters allows you to deal from a position of strength.
by Yakker on Jun 25, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not having one of them
may give us a shot at Bay – which I am ALL FOR
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 25, 2009 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno...
I don’t think “halfway decent” is enough to pull the trigger on $11 million worth of risk.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 25, 2009 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree. 12 months off surgery, halfway decent is more than enough to make it highly probable that Hudson would give ATL (or someone) $11M of value in 2010.
by Yakker on Jun 26, 2009 3:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Carpenter is a good example...
by Andy Braves Fan on Jun 26, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But they're also crossing their fingers every time he goes out there.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because he's already gotten hurt again, if it wasn't clear.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Per Fangraphs
Carp has already been worth $9.1M so far this year.
by Yakker on Jun 26, 2009 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does that number go down if he doesn't pitch again?
I don’t know what stat you’re referring to, exactly.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WAR
No, it doesn’t go down. It’s value delivered so far this year based on performance to date.
Another example: In 2008, Hudson was worth over $11M even though his season was cut short and he threw less than 150 IPs. Same thing with Rich Harden, who was worth over $20M in 2008, even though he too pitched less than 150 IPs. Of course, expecting a post-surgery Hudson to turn into Rich Harden is probably pretty unrealistic. (Like the joke about the guy who breaks his finger and asks his doctor if he’ll be to play the piano after the surgery.)
Bottom line, good pitching for a concentrated portion of the year can actually be pretty valuable. That’s why, for me, the only question on Hudson is whether he can be decent this year. If so, and he demonstrates his velocity is fine, he’ll only be better in 2010.
by Yakker on Jun 26, 2009 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow...
I don’t know about that, then. $9.1 mil for 10 starts seems a bit much. Hell, that seems like a lot for 10 shutouts.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WAR
Fangraphs bases their numbers on an embedded assumption that you can fill out the rest of the 200 or so IPs with replacement level pitching.
So, to take Carpenter’s example, 65 IPs of 1-something ERA ball + 135 IPs of 4-something ERA ball gives you essentially a $9M pitcher. I’m over simplifying (that replacement level pitcher costs you something, for starters), but that’s basically it.
by Yakker on Jun 28, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gotcha.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm...
Trading Vazquez now or soon seems like a mistake. Sure, his value is at an all-time high, but we just got him and he’s been exceptional. He’s an ace this year by any measure (our best pitcher, bar none) and we could certainly use him next season if we expect to contend. I’d look at picking up Huddy’s option and then dealing him if we had to.
I like Jason Bay, but I’m not sure he’ll be worth the money he’ll command. Moreover, the big money teams (both NY’s, BoSox and Angels) could use a guy like him…
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 25, 2009 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Bay will command a big time contract. Boras client rememer. Also over 30, so I would expect generally diminishing returns…
by Andy Braves Fan on Jun 26, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmmm
I’m pretty sure that Bay isn’t a Boras client. Holliday and Nady are, but I’m almost 100% that Bay is not.
- – - -
Just checked it with Cot’s, and he’s hooked up with Octagon Baseball and Joe Urbon.
by bravesfan91 on Jun 26, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are right
I had a brain lapse there.
My comments on his diminishing returns (likely, not a definite) still stand.
by Andy Braves Fan on Jun 26, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, no doubt about the deminishing returns. Chances are that he slowly declines from here on out.
by bravesfan91 on Jun 27, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is not rosterbation
This is education. Excellent post – well written, great research, and presentation of the monetary breakdown. Recommended.
As for the flowing of photos with text, it’s apparently not incorporated into the SBN scripting. I’ve tried to manually get around it with my own HTMLing, but the software is very finicky with what types of code it accepts, and unfortunately I haven’t figured out how to get text wrap around photos to work, either. It’s allowed in front-page articles, but it does have is done via widgets instead of code, and for the record is far from adequate IMO. How you’ve presented it is perfectly acceptable. Well done.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Jun 25, 2009 5:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh Well...
It sucks that the formating is still not quite perfect, but it’s certainly better after the most recent upgrades. I’d love it if you too could chime in on the content, though. Here are some of the questions I posited to “Justin” above… would you keep Huddy? Who do you non-tender? Who do you target in free agency and/or trade market? now, if that sort of commentary is frowned upon, then please refrain. I’m just curious about how you’d put this info to work for our team. Thanks!
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 25, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm
I’d really like to see how Huddy does prior to making the call on whether or not to keep him. I’m fairly confident that he will no doubt get a decent amount to showcase when he’s cleared to pitch, no doubt via the minors on a rehab tour, as well as the September stretch. I guess it’s a little much to ask, but Mike Hampton did it too, but I almost wouldn’t mind it if Huddy took on a stint of winter ball too, just to help himself regain his form, as well as for evaluation purposes.
Regardless of how he does, an ace-caliber potential pitcher for a reasonable $12MM is hard to turn down so I guess I would say that yes, I would pick him up. Although it does create the proverbial logjam in the rotation, the adage is that yeah, you can never have enough good starting pitching. If everyone’s healthy, then the oft-proposed trading of Vazquez and his more-reasonable salary becomes tradeable.
I’m not going to lie, I’m not that good with the arbitration/non-tendering information, so for the time being, I’ll let you know whom I think is expendable – Jeff Francoeur (surprise), Martin Prado (I often thought Infante offset the need for him), and if they keep playing the way they do (theoretically) the remainder of the season, then I’d have to throw Kelly Johnson and Jeff Bennett into that pot. If Medlen is going to be utilized by the big club as nothing but a long-man, I’d prefer he be sent back to the minors, or be a trade chip.
I have to imagine that there will be some budget opened up – I have a belief that Soriano and/or Gonzalez are as good as gone, more so if they continue at their productive pace now. I get the impression Gonzalez’s early inconsistencies might potentially lead him to be the more likely of the two to be re-signed, but I’m firmly in the camp that would like to see one of them retained, for some semblance of stability in a fickle bullpen.
Losing two second basemen opens the door for pursuing a guy that I’ve liked, in Orlando Hudson. Another guy I’d love to see about inquiring for would be Shin-Soo Choo in Cleveland to take over in RF, that is, if he doesn’t have to go do his mandatory two years of South Korean military service. It might be more lefties in a pen then required, but I honestly wouldn’t mind seeing Ron Mahay back on the Braves – marching an army of LHP relievers against a squad like the Phillies is an appealing thought to me.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Jun 25, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
Prado’s not arbitration eligible yet, so we should def keep him and try him (or Infante) at 2B if Kelly is shown the door. I like the Choo idea because it’s outside the box thinking, but I’m not all that sold on him and his impending military service. Thanks for the thoughtful comment!
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 25, 2009 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats a factor
I had never considered (Choo’s military service)
by Andy Braves Fan on Jun 26, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A huge one
And likely unfortunate one. Choo is really blossoming into a fine everyday player, and to have to forgo two peak years with no baseball at all is likely devastating. The Braves have witnessed this first hand with former Myrtle Beach 2007 Most Valuable Pitcher, reliever Sung-Ki Jung, when he had report for his two years of service, and came back and was mostly unusable.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Jun 26, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I do remember that. I guess it just never occurred to me that Choo would inevitably have to do the same thing.
by Andy Braves Fan on Jun 26, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His stats imply that that MVP season was AFTER his service?
Is that wrong?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Was it
I really don’t remember it all that clearly, just that he was really promising and then wasn’t. I remember hearing something about military service, but maybe it wasn’t that…
by Andy Braves Fan on Jun 26, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right
04-06 was his service duty. And then he put up stellar numbers to get the honors in 2007. But apparently, the ensuing promotion to Mississippi is where the talent dropped, he couldn’t get lefties out, and he was eventually dropped. In fact, I think it was Boone Logan who took his roster spot…
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Jun 26, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK...
So while the time off probably didn’t help, it can’t really be pointed to as the definitive reason he didn’t make it.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope, absolutely right. But in the instance with acquiring a guy like Choo, it would really suck to strike a trade to get him, only to see him ship off for two years, regardless of how he performs once arriving back.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Jun 26, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What would happen
contract wise (if he were under contract)? I am pretty sure the Braves wouldn’t be on the hook for the money if he wasn’t there, but would his contract be over the same date? In the case of arbitration, I assume that would mean that, since he isn’t collecting MLB service time he wouldn’t be arb eligible on the same schedule.
Also, would the Braves have to keep him on the 40 man roster?
I’m sure MLB has done this before, but I am still curious.
by Andy Braves Fan on Jun 26, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Winter ball
Do you know how long ATL has to pick up the option? For some reason, early December sticks out in my mind, although maybe just because that’s the point by which the team has to offer arbitration to potential free agents.
by Yakker on Jun 25, 2009 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would assume it's the 15-day window after the WS
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 25, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Makes sense. So they’ll probably have to make a decision on Hudson before seeing him perform in winter ball.
by Yakker on Jun 26, 2009 3:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good job! Nice post, informative, educational, and way more important a topic than the drivel I posted earlier today. Thumbs up!
Francoeur: "If OBP is so important, why don't they put it on the scoreboard?"
Chipper: "Wow, you really are a dumbass."
by Rhyno18 on Jun 25, 2009 5:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey!
I happen to think humor and pop culture references are important, too! I remember loving the Transformers when I was growing up (I liked the Decepticons, just as I always liked the villains more than the heros) so I enjoyed your piece earlier. Funny thing is that your player assesment was rock solid, just as your filling of the roles! Thanks for the kudos, though!
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 25, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh!
And, if you’d like, I’d love to know what your more specific thoughts on the Braves 2010 roster are. I asked those above some Q’s to get them started and here they are: would you keep Huddy? Who do you non-tender? Who do you target in free agency and/or trade market?
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 25, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I won’t be able to make a decision on Huddy until the end of the season, although I currently lean toward keeping him.
I’d love to see the Braves get Jason Bay or to a lesser degree Matt Holliday in the offseason, but I don’t see how we could afford either, and they would end up blocking prospects. So, I say trade for Adam Dunn for the one year he has left on his contract. Schafer will hopefully be ready for next year in center, move McLouth to right and stick Dunn in left. I’d like to see BJones as the 4th outfielder. Trade or just non-tender FYF and Diaz to make room in the outfield.
I’m not a huge fan of Yunel’s attitude, so I’m open to moving him, but I’d want a pretty good return for him.
Francoeur: "If OBP is so important, why don't they put it on the scoreboard?"
Chipper: "Wow, you really are a dumbass."
by Rhyno18 on Jun 25, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the problem with moving Yunie is that there is no one anywhere near as good as him in our system. So we’d have to find a new SS, a new OF, and possibly a new 2B. You have proposed DUnn (which obviously I love)… but that still leaves us trying to find a suitable SS (which is pretty rare).
The problem with Yunel and his attitude is that he’s too good to get rid of… we just need to let him play and suck it up until we have a situation where we can get someone new in.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Jun 25, 2009 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Attitudes hurt trade values and make players like that keepers by default…
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 25, 2009 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, I’m not in a hurry to move Yunel, but if say the Red Sox offered the farm for him I wouldn’t throw a fit. I would want a real haul for a young cheap SS with his talent.
Francoeur: "If OBP is so important, why don't they put it on the scoreboard?"
Chipper: "Wow, you really are a dumbass."
by Rhyno18 on Jun 25, 2009 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well thats not gonna happen… so dont worry about it too much
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Jun 25, 2009 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why Jones over Diaz?
He wouldn’t be much more expensive, and he’s certainly shown to be a better major-league hitter.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 25, 2009 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Diaz will likely cost us 2 to 3 million more than BJones next year. He’s not worth that much more, IMO
Francoeur: "If OBP is so important, why don't they put it on the scoreboard?"
Chipper: "Wow, you really are a dumbass."
by Rhyno18 on Jun 26, 2009 7:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
You expect his salary to DOUBLE in arbitration? Even though he’s a platoon player who’s never seen a full-time starting job?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FYF went from 425K to over 3 mil. I think the estimate in the OP is going to be a bit low for Diaz, but even if he only gets 1.5 mil, its still 3 times what we have to pay BJones. When our penny-pinching corporate owners, it isn’t money we can waste on a platoon/4th outfielder. I like Diaz alot personally, but he’s an example of the type of player we just can’t afford anymore.
Francoeur: "If OBP is so important, why don't they put it on the scoreboard?"
Chipper: "Wow, you really are a dumbass."
by Rhyno18 on Jun 26, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But can we afford Jones' play any more?
Also, Francoeur was a Super 2 who had been very successful as a full-time starter. That’s quite a different comparison than Diaz going from year one of arb. to year two as a platoon guy.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My point is, with our current payroll, we have to figure out in the pre-arb years if a player is going to “make it” or not. Neither Diaz nor FYF are good enough to worth the money to pay them to be our 4th outfielder. We give BJones a chance and see what he has, and if he can’t cut, well, then we see what Cody Johnson and Jason Heyward can do the next year.
Francoeur: "If OBP is so important, why don't they put it on the scoreboard?"
Chipper: "Wow, you really are a dumbass."
by Rhyno18 on Jun 26, 2009 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cot's
Has slightly different numbers for some of these guys.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p4ew-fwu2XT0dna_BTH5TBw
by Yakker on Jun 25, 2009 5:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Some of discrepancies look like they’re due to signing bonuses. The extra money on McCann, for example, appears to be his signing bonus spread over 6 years.
by VictorW on Jun 25, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Makes sense
And the differences probably aren’t material. Although if this is how they’re accounted for (deferred over contract life), I suppose we should do so as well, even though it’s probably more work.
One other housekeeping note, on Huddy. Did anyone ever get the final word on whether the option was a mutual or team option? I remember significant confusion on that point, an “answer” which turned out not to be entirely accurate, and then just general confusion. But it’s been awhile since I’ve looked into it.
by Yakker on Jun 25, 2009 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not specifically a mutual option, but very similar. It’s a team option that can be voided by Hudson if he’s willing to forfeit the $1M guaranteed. I believe in a normal mutual option, he would get to keep the $1M buyout.
by VictorW on Jun 25, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Interesting. So in a normal mutual option, if ATL exercised the option and Hudson didn’t (assuming consecutive, not concurrent decisions), Hudson would get to keep $1M? That seems unfair.
Anyway, it sounds like Hudson has a say in all of this. I wouldn’t be completely shocked if he voided the option.
by Yakker on Jun 25, 2009 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes...
It’s not unfair because it’s agreed to in the contract.
Some mutual options have split buyouts. Jon Garland gets $2.5 mil if the D’Backs decline this year, but only $1 mil if he does.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 25, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh
I used their regular team page for the contracts (I have my own spreadsheet with the info) and it does seperate out signing bonuses and such. I think that’s the way teams do their accounting for payroll anyway. Thanks for the heads up though!
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 25, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My own payroll figures agree pretty much. With Tim Hudson, I have $72MM in guaranteed contracts, as you do. I have Kotchman and Johnson both shooting north of $5 million each, which isn’t unusual for everyday players in years two and three of arbitration. I went ahead and non-tendered Frenchy, and figured another $4 million combined for Diaz, Moylan, and stuff happens. Then I tossed in $4 million for 10 min-salary players (I won’t try to guess who the random relievers du jour will be). That puts the total payroll at about $90 million, still needing to fill 2 roster spots: one in the bullpen, and one in right field.
So you’re talking $10 million for a closer and a RF. If you trade for a lower-priced right fielder, like Willingham or Ross, you might have $5-6 million left to sign a free-agent reliever…
by tgthree on Jun 25, 2009 5:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
It’s a tight fit, which leads me to believe big changes are on the way. I think Frenchy, Kelly, Diaz and Bennett get non-tender/traded. I think Huddy’s option is picked up and I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s talk of Vazquez signing an extension. Our in-house options for the bullpen are solid, but they lack a true hammer down closer… lots to think about, so thanks for chiming in! Oh, I think Schafer mans CF and McLouth moves to RF with maybe B. Jones or another FA manning LF.
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 25, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just don't see how non-tendering Bennett or Diaz is cost-effective.
You won’t replace them for any cheaper than they’ll get.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 25, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
if it is safe to assume Frenchy is non-tendered. I wish… in a perfect world…
by Andy Braves Fan on Jun 26, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Francoeur’s going to be nontendered or traded or something. I can’t imagine the team paying him anything near $5M next year. Sadly, that’s probably close to what he’ll get in arb.
I wonder if Hudson would be open to an extension that lowers his 2010 salary for a few more years. I have no idea what a reasonable price would be at this time and, of course, a lot of depend son how well he recovers from his surgery.
Anyway, I think the team will end up around $11-16M or so under the estimate you have by getting rid of FYF and figuring out something with Hudson/KK/Vazquez (letting Hudson go, trading 1, whatever). So I guess we can assume the team has about that much to spend.
We have backup outfielders (Diaz, Blanco) and nice utility men (Infante, Prado) and our backup catcher (Ross). That leaves the money for the pen and another outfielder or two, depending on Schafer.
I like Raffy and Gonzo, but I hope the team doesn’t overpay. Other relievers: Kevin Gregg (loool), Trevor Hoffman, Brandon Lyon, Ron Mahay, Jose Valverde, Billy Wagner.
Outfield bats… A lot on the market: Jason Bay, Matt Holliday, Rick Ankiel,Andruw Jones, Marlon Byrd, Vlad Guerrero, Xavier Nady, Johnny Damon, Mike Cameron, Bobby Abreu, Garret Anderson.
by VictorW on Jun 25, 2009 6:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Outside..
of Bay that list is a whose who of questions marks. Ankiel stats are down (known HGH user as well), A. Jones is impossible to tell if he will be the 50 HR guy or the .190 BA guy, Nady (recovery from injury) Vlad (old, injury prone), Abreu (old, does not hit for much power), Cameron (past his prime), Damon (old and benefits from the park he plays in), Byrd (another hit and miss guy), Holliday (heating up but still unknown what he does a whole season away from Coors), Anderson (heating up, but another year older).
In other words, not the best free agent market for those looking for a long term solution for their outfield and I don’t see Liberty willing to pay for Bay.
I miss the Time Warner days.
by Jerret Anderson on Jun 25, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Turner, Time Warner and Liberty Media.
It’d be nice if we had unlimited funds, but that’s not necessary to construct a competative or even championship caliber team. We’ve struggled with the transition from the free spending days to the tighter finances of today, but we’re getting there. I like the direction that Wren is taking the team in (guys signed for short deals without no-trade clauses, bridging to the next wave of prospects).
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 25, 2009 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scheurholtz didn't give out NTCs either.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 25, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heyward, Schafer, and McLouth are the long term solution
There’s plenty of players there who would be good for 1-2 years.
by VictorW on Jun 25, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Personally.
I see Schafer back in CF for Atlanta next year and McLouth in RF. LF is obviously a question mark, but CF and RF are spoken for in 2010 in my book and Heyward could be up for 2011…
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 25, 2009 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah.
I just included everyone to point out that changes MUST be made to come in under the payroll ceiling. I sincerely doubt we trade Kawakami or move him to the bullpen, since we’re using him to break into the Japanese/Asian market and such a change would be frowned upon there.
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 25, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s a good point. Looks like something with Hudson or Vazquez will be more likely then.
by VictorW on Jun 25, 2009 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great post by the way. Really appreciate the research!!!
Rec’d
by Jerret Anderson on Jun 25, 2009 6:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks!
I always appreciate the kind words and look forward to more debate.
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 25, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jason Bay
Will probably resign with the Sox, that being said we might as well resign Hudson or trade him this season.
by blitzerlover on Jun 25, 2009 6:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
Sox, Yanks and Angels could use him and they can spend whatever they wish, so he’s a pipedream I think.
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 25, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right. We won’t be getting Bay now that we have McLouth. If Schafer can start hitting league average I think we have a decent outfield for next year, unless we drag out the corpse of FYF. But Bay is a pipe dream, as I imagine him getting at least, at least, 4/$60MM (and probably JD Drew money), which is terribly far over our budget, and not really financially wise.
by soup du jour on Jun 26, 2009 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know that the two are mutually exclusive.
McLouth is probably getting below market value for the life of his contract.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
4/60M is more than JD Drew money, JD got 5/70M which is more total but less per year. FYI.
I would suspect Bay to get a much longer contract than is being considered here. Im thinking upwards of 6 years. somewhere in the neighborhood of 6/100M, at least thats my $.02
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Jun 26, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd pay him that much
if anyone is worth it right now, it is him
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 26, 2009 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fenway.
Are you not concerned about how Fenway is affecting his stats?
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 26, 2009 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He certainly wasn't a bad hitter as a Pirate.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not really
like michael said, he was good as a pirate, and he is good away from fenway too.
Plus, take a look at his home/away splits, and you will see the exact opposite of what you propose:
Home: 254 / .372 / .533 / .904
Away: .298 / .401 / .603 / 1.004
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 27, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clarification:
this is from 2009.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 27, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wouldnt Fenway LOWER his numbers?
Its a hitters park but more beneficial to lefties mainly because of Green Monster
by drumzalicious on Jun 27, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it has.
he has more homeruns and better numbers across the board away from Fenway, but you also can’t forget about Pesky Pole – if Nick Green hits that ball anywhere other than Fenway, we may have another win under our belts.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 27, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
indeed
even still we have no chance at acquiring him. If we didnt have Lowe and KK on the books maybe
by drumzalicious on Jun 28, 2009 3:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There was some more discussion on this topic
Keep in mind I put that together just before the McLouth acquistion, so adjust accordingly. Decent amount of discussion on what to do with T Hudson as well.
by fphjr01 on Jun 25, 2009 7:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Cool.
I hope you guys don’t mind an updated post about the situation. Obviously it’s extra tough to deal with Huddy when we don’t yet know how he is.
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 25, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We keep discussing the trading of Vazquez or someone…. Is there any way we could possibly trade Lowe?… I personally dont think so… but if we looked at the move as a means of free cap space to sign an OF bat, and lessened the return (possibly a 2B and some higher prospects)… I dont really know Im just talking out my ass.
It just seems no one wants to trade JV, becuase he is signed cheap (ish) and has pitched great for us. And I dont think Hudson has enough value, to get anyone good enough (and is signed relatively cheap). And we apparently won’t trade KK because of the non baseball issues (he being the key to the Asian market), something I agree with. Someone needs to go, I think (maybe not 6-man rotation here we come).
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Jun 25, 2009 7:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Lowe.
Trading him would be ideal, but his contract makes it impossible. I know it’s blasphemy, but how about making a prospect for prospect-ish trade with Hanson? I know there are few equivalent hitters, but would people even consider this?
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 25, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd be fine in trading Hanson
providing we get a good prospect and immediate impact bat in return.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 25, 2009 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not just no
Respectfully, Tommy Hanson will be the ace of the Braves’ pitching staff and one of the NL’s top starters within 12 months, if not sooner. Fortunately, Wren will not trade him.
by Messenger on Jun 25, 2009 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
You would turn down Justin Upton? How about Ryan Braun? Maybe an Adam Lind and change…
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 25, 2009 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would turn down Justin Upton… he has the whole bag of tools… but he has kinda not played overly well so far
But If i even hear the name Braun or Lind… It would be ridiculously hard to turn it down… but again.. Its not gonna happen… so why worry about it?
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Jun 25, 2009 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really???
Justin Upton is hitting .323/.401/.593 in 248 AB this season as a 21 year old. Last year he had a miserable June and a mediocre May, but he crushed for most of his AB that season. He’s also solid with the glove, I believe, and has good wheels. Braun is a great hitter and his defense is actually decent in LF. Lind is the worst of the bunch and I’d definitely need more than just him for a conversation about Hanson…
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 25, 2009 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont know, I have no statistical evidence to back it up… so take that for whats its worht… I just dont like Upton… I would chalk it up to personal preference.
I didnt spend the 10 seconds looking up Upton’s stats and for that I should be flogged. You are correct. But I dont know.. maybe its that his brother continually tanks my fantasy teams (IDK).
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Jun 26, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
HAHAHA!
Yeah, I have that feeling about some guys. For whatever reason, I can’t ever give Roy Oswalt his due…
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 26, 2009 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
u see and I totally overvalue him
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Jun 26, 2009 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oswalt can go either way
He always seems horrible in the first half. He pitches better after the all-star break annually.
I like Upton, but I understand if you dont’ like the guy, intangibles happen.
by Andy Braves Fan on Jul 1, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Steve Avery got totally blown up in his rookie year:
3-11, 5.64
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess so...
But I somehow don’t see him not winning another game and throwing a 6.00 ERA the rest of the way.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
I guess it only took a month or so for that ship to go down into a whirlpool in flames.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've said that before
I dont think we would have to lessen our return in a player but just pay a portion of his contract since that was the issue with most teams.
If we pay like 4 mil a year on his contract that will make him a very affordable 11 mil a year #1/#2 Starter.
I suggested the Rangers and looking into somehow getting Nelson Cruz once Hamilton returns.
Something like Lowe, Cody Johnson, Lower pitching Prospect (someone not so amazing hopefully) + 4 mil for Nelson Cruz.
Of course it got shot down as do a lot of things that are not conventional around here.
by drumzalicious on Jun 27, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, if by "not conventional" you mean unrealistic.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 27, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
unrealistic?
So a team is offered Lowe . . . at 10 mil . . . in a time when some #4’s are making that much (Oliver Perez) i mean its hard for me to think its “unrealistic” for a team to not be intrigued by it. Especially one needing starting pitching.
by drumzalicious on Jun 28, 2009 3:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Cruz
is worth that much…at least, not yet.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 27, 2009 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
possibly.
But the only other young player that comes to mind as really dynamic is Upton and i know we arent getting him from Arizona.
They would prob start that conversation off with
Ari: So you want Upton?
Atl: Yea, what does it cost us?
Ari: Let’s start with Hanson and Heyward.
so yea lol
by drumzalicious on Jun 28, 2009 4:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nellie Cruz will be 29 on Wednesday, so if you’re considering him as a “young” player, you probably shouldn’t.
by Yakker on Jun 28, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The poll
It’s interesting to see the responses to the poll. So far, the most commonly-given response says only “minor moves” are needed.to push the Barves “over the top”. This tends to suggest most Braves fans are still leaning toward delusional thinking. The truth is that Frank Wren took some very improtant steps toward rebuilding the pitching staff by trading for Jurrjens and Vazquez and signing Lowe and Kawakami. However, notwithstanding the acquisition of Nate McLouth, Wren will have to rebuild his outfield on the corners. He will need a new starting second baseman, and he will also have to decide what to do with Yunel Escobar and Casey Kotchman. His bullpen is in danger of taking a major step backward unless he has the money to re-sign Soriano and/or Gonzalez. There are some important building blocks already in place, to be sure. McCann is a great player in the making. But anyone who truly believes this team only needs “minor moves” isn’t really paying attention. Right now, this is a .500 team even with the solid staff, and Wren is two or perhaps even three major moves away from real competitiveness.
by Messenger on Jun 25, 2009 8:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think part of the problem with the poll (and I mean no disrespect to ejruiz).. is the ambiguitity in the terms minor moves. A minor move could be adding a bat to some people.. and I really think thats all that needs to be done… but I considered that to be plenty of work (considering how hard it is to get the bat we would need).
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Jun 25, 2009 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Poll.
Yeah. By not defining the terms, I left room for interpretation. I believe people would consider the Vazquez and McLouth trades major moves, but what exactly is a minor move? In my book, that’s signing a middle tier free agent or trading for a decent, but non-AS player. I’m not sure about all that, but it’s my gut right now.
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 25, 2009 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno
Can’t discount the minor leagues, and major deals mean draining the farm a lot of the time (in trades). The Braves clearly have a tight payroll, so that is the most likely route (assuming they don’t move vazques or something of that nature).
by Andy Braves Fan on Jun 26, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks!
So, what would you like to see the Braves do to improve their position for 2010?
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 26, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Go back to wearing tight pants. :)
by Lizziebeth on Jun 27, 2009 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmmm
what sort of “position” do you have in mind, young lady?
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 27, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My thoughts
VictorW brought up a good point, which is what the Braves could do. Negotiate an extension with Hudson before declining the option. Give him 3 more years (option years, preferably), where he’s making something like 6-8MM next year and $10-12MM on the next years. This way we’ll save money to go get the bullpen arm or two (or resign our own guys) or maybe go get a nice outfielder.
Also, reducing his salary like so would make it more palatable for him to be our closer next year. If he comes in this year and can demonstrate his ability to come out of the pen, we’ll have an in house replacement who’s not over paid to be our closer, allowing us the luxury of not overpaying for a new closer or overpaying Soriano or Gonzalez. Then, when Vazquez’s contract expires, we can move Hudson back to the rotation.
by soup du jour on Jun 26, 2009 10:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Do we really want to make a guy who's relieved all of one game in the last ten years our closer?
Particularly one who pitches to contact?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well....
I’m not a big fan of the idea, but it’s not entirely off-base. The majority of the time Hudson would be starting an inning, which would make it like starting a game. That’s what managers do in the ASG, they bring the starters in for relief only to start innings so that “feel” of starting the game is still there. If Huddy’s only starting innings then pitching to contact is no longer a problem, and he’s even shown that he can post big strikeout numbers in the past.
I’m not a fan of the idea personally because he has a much greater value to us as a starter, but it’s a completely feasable idea in my opinion.
by bravesfan91 on Jun 26, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha...
Big strikeout numbers back in ‘00 aren’t exactly what I’m looking for. I really like strikeout pitchers (particularly in the ‘pen), apparently more than the Braves do. It’s the only way a pitcher can be totally in control of the batting outcome.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Braves bullpen are like 2nd in baseball in K/9… i think
/no research actually done
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Jun 26, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When it came to the Braves, I was talking more about the starters...
Particularly the ones we’ve been developing. We haven’t brought up a bigtime strikeout guy since who, Millwood? Hopefully, though, Tommy and Kris can keep up their minor league success.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
does hanson count?
is isnt racking up the ks right now, but i think he will eventually.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 26, 2009 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
Check my second sentence. Medlen has had good minor league K rates too.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry...I never learned to read well
I am only a garbage man.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 26, 2009 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
Good luck finding a wife.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
apparently
i am also 0-3 in “fights” having been knocked out 3 times…
some people just don’t get it i guess. lol
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 27, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
however i agree that Hudson isnt what i would term a “strikeout” pitcher and I certainly wouldnt make him our closer. He struggles the most in the early part of the game… i would assuem that he would struggle out of the pen (although this is a gut feeling with no statistical evidence)
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Jun 26, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, a lot of it depends on what he does this year. If he comes into the bullpen and appears in 12-18 games in relief and pitches well, then yeah, sure.
by soup du jour on Jun 26, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This
Declining Ks and lots of GBs do not a closer make. See, e.g, Chris Reitsma.
by Yakker on Jun 26, 2009 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then again...
Reitsma didn’t have many Ks to decline from.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm...
I think a surprise contract extension for someone could be worked out to save some money somehow, but I don’t like the idea of commiting multiple years to Huddy just yet. I also am not a fan of moving him to the bullpen. Interesting thinking outside the box, though!
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 26, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huddy intangibles to think about
These intangibles should have no bearing to your decisions on whether or not to keep Huddy, but more reasons why Huddy might be willing to accept a payment deferral plan, or a reasonable paycut.
1. Tim Hudson and family currently live south of Atlanta where the school systems in Fayette County are some of the higher regarded systems in the state; in other words the Huddy kids are enjoying one of the better school systems in Georgia – And Huddy being a native Georgian, would he want to cut and run? One key reason why Greg Maddux took the Braves over the Yankees for less money in 1993 was the family lifestyle Georgia offered over a city like New York. We know they’ll never be another Maddux, but could Huddy be the kind of guy to do similarly?
2. The Hudson Family Foundation just recently launched, and it’s not impossible to move operations to another team’s city/area, but would they want to so soon after taking off? The Huddy family has demonstrated great knack for charity and it makes one think if they’re the really types of people to balk over “a few million.”
3. Huddy’s supposedly building his dream home in Alabama, near Auburn, where he went to school. Would he want to stray too far from his dream home? CC Sabathia recently built his dream home in SoCal, despite playing for the Yankees, and I’m sure many other star players have done similarly, so it’s not silly to think that Huddy would stay just for that.
So I guess the question kind of morphs to, the folks who would rather see him go, if you knew Huddy would take a reasonable cut/options-deferral plan, would that change your mind?
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Jun 26, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me deflect to another point re: Hudson
But before I do, yes, I would take him at 6-8M and figure out who pitches where later.
I still think the biggest reason to sign Hudson back would be to keep him away from the Mets and the Phillies. Both of those clubs are still desperate for pitching, and he would instantly be the #2 starter on either club, even at less than whatever the general concensus is of him @ “100%”. If we decide to do it, signing him is a “sure thing”, whereas signing a FA bat is a crapshoot, especially if we have to put up with more offseason fiascos like this past year.
by fphjr01 on Jun 26, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"But before I do, yes, I would take him at 6-8M and figure out who pitches where later."
This
by Yakker on Jun 26, 2009 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is a VERY conditional statement.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would all depend on the contract terms
I guess I am only saying that if it came down to a choice where we had to have Hudson OR Vasquez (under the current contracts) I want Vasquez with no reservations.
If Hudson were willing to negotiate a lower contract (and of course, if he is really able to pitch effectively again), I wouldn’t mind spending the cash on him.
Do you guys think that Vaz is making too much to be a closer? Do you think he would be an effective closer? (not necessarily calling for this, but just trying to throw options out there)
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 26, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He probably could be...
But $11.5 for that is steep. Like Smoltz said a few years back, a closer can only impact the game if the team plays 7-8 innings worth of ball to put him in the situation.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent read
Very informative and intelligently written. I hope we hang on to Huddy.
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Jun 26, 2009 1:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks!
Any thoughts on the situation itself?
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 26, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
MLBTradeRumors "reverse engineers" Elias formula for Type A / Type B FA's
Thanks to AA for pointing these out. BOTH Gonzo and Soriano are projected as Type A’s…
by fphjr01 on Jun 26, 2009 1:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And GA is a Type B...
Given that I can’t see any reason we’d bring him back, it wouldn’t be a bad thing to get something for him if/when he signs somewhere else.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure you already know
but you have to offer arbitration and have the player decline to get compensation. I see no reason to offer him anything, especially if we risk him accepting arbitration.
by fphjr01 on Jun 26, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would be interesteing to see what he would garner, though.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fair enough
But that’s the double edged sword that is arbitration. If you low-ball the hell out of a player, you will very likely end up overpaying if the player offers something too high but closer to what the arbitrator decides is market value. I’d rather see us let GA go and use the cash elsewhere. We are in position to have more than enough early picks, even more so if Minor doesn’t sign for some reason, so the carrot of netting a supplemental choice for GA isn’t all that attractive to me.
by fphjr01 on Jun 26, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah.
I had seen that, but I’m more confused about what salary figures the arbi guys will be talking about and eventually getting that’s trully confusing to project. I’m thrilled by the possibility of so many protections for our valuable free agents, though, so thanks for reminding me!
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 26, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't worry much about it
The only two guys that would really be in line for a “big” raise are KJ and Kotchman, and KJ only because of past (i.e. not this year’s) performance. For KJ, you can use Dan Uggla as an upper bound; I think Uggla got like 5.5M or something, and KJ won’t get anywhere near that. I suspect both Kotch and KJ will be 4M +/- 0.5M or so. Whatever you think for Diaz / Moylan / Bennett (if we keep him) is probably close enough. I’d bet that the total uncertainty for all the Arb guys is less than 2-3M, which is basically in the noise in terms of budget flexibility for planning purposes today.
On my excel chart, our total “locked-in” salary (including my arb projections) is $78M, almost perfectly split b/t pitching and position players. The only spots I have empty are closer, 8th inning, and RF. I assume Schafer returns, the starting rotation is the same as today, and the rest of the bullpen is exactly the same or guys replaced by others of the same cost (i.e. pre-Arb level). So, I estimate we will have $20Mish to go after one of our own closers, maybe resign Tim, and pick up a corner outfielder on the FA or trade market.
by fphjr01 on Jun 26, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting...
You think $20M would be enough to sign Soriano/Gonzalez, Hudson and a quality corner outfielder? Gonzo should be cheaper than Sori, I suppose we could try to get Huddy in for less than $11M (letting him go would cost us the $1M buyout) and a good OF should be quite pricey still. We may have to get creative to get this team right…
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jun 26, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I don't think 20M will be enough
I meant that we will have a budget of ~20M to spread amongst the options listed above.
In reality, I think we will try to retain one of Gonzo / Soriano, pick up Hudson’s option, and go cheap on the other corner OF spot for one more year or so, and hope that Heyward comes along quickly. While Bay or perhaps Holliday would be wonderful, they will be mondo expensive, cost us draft picks, and requie at least a 4 year contract to get them, and then we would be blocking Heyward.
Looking at the A / B list, I don’t see anyone at all I’m really excited about that’s signable for say 2 years. Particularly RF’s except for Nady, who’s type A, and coming off a 2nd major surgery on the throwing arm. Thus, I can only hope we can acquire a decent RF through a trade of some sort.
by fphjr01 on Jun 26, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, Nady may be about to go TJ
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i could be wrong
but isnt that Nady’s second TJ surgery for his career
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Jun 26, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can't find it if it is...
And it’s not final yet that he’s getting it done. But his professional low in games played was 108 in ’04.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Things happen quickly, I suppose
Now it is.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In regard to Huddy.
I think we should try to work out an extension with him thats deferred.
Something where we are actually paying him 6 mil a year. but its valued at 11-13 mil a year.
I believe he would go for something like that because he knows it would help the team and with how much he has grown into a “Brave” i figure he would take that kind of extension.
We could then use that money to retain Soriano.
by drumzalicious on Jun 27, 2009 12:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A good idea in theory...
But you need more than one party sign a contract.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 27, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
im trying to figure out the point of that statement.
Never did i say that it was a sure thing to work.
nor did i say it was a sure thing to retain Soriano.
It’s kind of common sense that more than one party has to agree.
by drumzalicious on Jun 28, 2009 4:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The point was...
That one-sided contracts are, at best, going to take some luck to be accepted, and, at worst, will have no chance to work when a guy can hit the open market where so many teams have so much more money to spend than us.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we can hope that with his slight attachment to Atlanta and the community that he would be open to it
by drumzalicious on Jun 28, 2009 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rec'd
Btw, I’m pretty sure that everyone loves rosterbating, but no one is willing to admit it. Rosterbation is even more enjoyable when looking certain webpages…(The braves roster, of course).
SubParr
by nick9314 on Jun 28, 2009 1:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Are you sure you werent talking about looking at the Yankees Roster?
Thinking about all those contracts coming off the Books and the possible OF of Bay/Cabrera/Holliday with Gardener as a Back Up? lol That would be a heck of a team. Especially with Swisher if he was the DH.
Wow . . . .
They should just be handed the WS ring if they do that. I mean how do you make that lineup?
Jeter
Holliday RF
Tex 1B
A-Rod 3B
Bay LF
Swisher DH
Cano 2B
Posada
Cabrera CF?
i mean . . . dag . . . thats some wow
by drumzalicious on Jun 28, 2009 4:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
looks like a team i made in Ken Griffey JR basbeall fo rthe n64 (only with players from that era)…somehow the real lise teams shouldnt be able to acquire the teams i make in video games
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Jun 28, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I had that game
for SNES…
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 28, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
GREAT game.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I liked it when if you just didn’t touch any controls for a while, the ump would turn around, knock on the screen (yes, way back in the days of glass screens) and say “Play the game, kid!”
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 28, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

by 

























