The road to offensive help for the Braves goes through Javier Vazquez
by gondeee on Jun 15, 2009 3:54 PM EDT
120 comments
In the short tenure of Atlanta Braves General Manager Frank Wren, we have observed that he has not been shy when making moves to improve his team. He has moved quickly this season to upgrade the offense in center field by demoting the struggling rookie Jordan Schafer, and trading for the affordable Nate McLouth. But it has become obvious that this may not be enough to overcome the Braves inability to score runs on a consistent basis. How long can the team continue to hope that internal options for more offense -- Jeff Francoeur and Kelly Johnson -- can turn things around.
The Braves don't just need another bat, they need a true impact bat -- a player on the order of magnitude of Mark Teixeira who can bridge the gap from the front of the lineup (McLouth, Escobar, Chipper) to the back of the lineup (McCann, Johnson, Kotchman). But Mark Teixeira is not available this year, and anyway, the Braves are out of money to trade for someone like that... or are they?
The last few trades have seen the Braves trade from positions of strength and depth in the minor leagues, but after dealing away five of the team's top-20 prospects in the last eight months, there's little left with which to deal that doesn't include Jason Heyward and Freedie Freeman -- and the team has apparently put those two players in the untouchable category. Is there another affordable and prospect-cheap Nate McLouth-type player out there? I doubt it.
In the quest for more offensive help, the Braves have to ask themselves the question, is it worth sacrificing a strength on the major league club to strengthen a weakness on the major league club? Their strength is starting pitching, and their best trade chip right now is Javier Vazquez. He's a mid-to-top of the rotation starting pitcher with the ability to strike people out -- something a lot of teams are looking for. For us to add a real impact bat to this club we would need to move Vazquez, not only to clear salary room, but also to acquire prospects that we could then use in a trade for that impact bat.
This move may not be practical until Tim Hudson begins his minor league rehab, and the team can evaluate how effective he is against live hitting and how far away he is from returning to the rotation. But with the expected return of Hudson nearer to being a reality, the team should be able to safely trade Vazquez, even if they have to use some combination of Kris Medlen, Jo-Jo Reyes, or Jorge Campillo to bridge the few games from when Vazquez is traded to when Hudson is ready.
Dealing Vazquez for prospects, while adding one or two prospects of our own (and not our top-guys) to a trade, should allow us to put together a competitive and compelling offer for an impact bat. And who would that bat be? Could Carlos Lee become available if the Astros fall further back? How about Jermaine Dye? Could a Cleveland fire sale make Travis Hafner available, and could he even play the outfield? Even if we're able to trade Vazquez, finding a bat who will fit in with our team and our budget will still be difficult.
Whoever the bat turns out to be, the cost in dollars and prospects is likely going to be high. The question the Braves will have to ask themselves is whether or not they want to weaken one area of their team to bolster another. Is it worth sacrificing one starting pitcher a week for seven days of offense?
When Casey Kotchman returns to the lineup this week, we'll finally have the full compliment of starters in the lineup since the McLouth deal. We'll also be playing some very tough teams, and we'll get to see if that lineup can score runs and win ballgames. If they can't, in the interest of trying to win this year, should the team put it on the line to add more offense, or should they wait until more affordable internal options are available? The problem with the latter, is that Heyward and Freeman, and any other foreseeable grade-A offensive help is at least two years away. It's highly unlikely that either of those guys will be ready at the start of next year, and they may even be doubtful for the start of 2011.
Maybe the acquisition of McLouth is a sign that the stop-gap approach to the offense (Anderson and Francoeur) is changing to more of a two-to-three year approach. If that's the case, then at least one more bat is needed, and preferably for more than one year. Should that disqualify us from the eventual Matt Holliday sweepstakes? Even with Holliday, we probably don't have the prospects on hand needed (and that we're willing to trade) to acquire him, so any discussion of even a one-year solution like that also has to include dealing Vazquez for more parts.
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I hope that this is so far from accurate that we will one day look back and laugh. Vasquez is my favorite of the new pitchers. I will hate to see him go.
I am a fan of the “you can never have too much SP” philosophy.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 15, 2009 4:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think he would bring in a haul, he is my favorite to but watching the Braves right now is giving me an aneurysm, and I cant take it anymore change needs to come to the A.
Baseball is my life
by That a boy on Jun 15, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha...
So is Tom Glavine.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 15, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
maybe I should have phrased it this way:
I am a fan of the “you can never have too much GOOD SP” philosophy.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 15, 2009 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would we go after Bay this offseason???
Baseball is my life
by That a boy on Jun 15, 2009 4:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Like we’re going to have a chance at a player that teh Red Sox and Yankees are going to be fighting over.
by Lennox on Jun 15, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those days are over. They died with Greg Maddux.
by BullManUGA on Jun 16, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont think we would need to.
IF we get a hold of a young hitter or even a hitter thats contracted for the next two years we will be fine because after that Heyward should be good to go. If he isnt panning out we could always use Blanco : )
by drumzalicious on Jun 15, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bite the hand that feeds you
This is such a tough choice, but I agree that Vazquez us the only way we get anything worthwhile. I think we should send him to Texas along with FYF for Nelson Cruz and perhaps a promising minor league reliever who is close, or a major league reliever if they wanna part with one. However with putting their closer on the DL that isn’t likely. They have the outfield depth to make this move, but I doubt they would. WHo knows…..HOWEVER, while looking at the depth chart of the Texas Rangers and scouring their farm stats for prospects I came across this line…granted it’s Triple A, but check this out:
Scott Thorman 1B G-35 AB-114 R-18 H-31 2B-6 3B-0 HR-9 RBI-20 TB-64 BB-10 SO-25 SB-3 CS-1 OBP-.362 SLG-.561 AVG-.272 OPS-.923 E-1
by Bravestillidie on Jun 15, 2009 4:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Of course, that was immediately after he hit .188 in an 11-game stretch for KC's AAA team.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 15, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who is going to take Vazquez and his contract without getting salary relief in return or dumping a big contract back on us?
by Lennox on Jun 15, 2009 4:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe Ozzie will take him back for Dye!
by soup du jour on Jun 15, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Once we have the pitching keep it! Find another way. We have more than enough depth in the organization to find a hitter without trading away a guy that we have needed for a few years and finally got him.
by SBURROUGHS on Jun 15, 2009 4:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
THIS
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 15, 2009 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree with trading Vazquez. If we trade an arm we should trade Lowe. I explained this in the Big Bat thread if you want the whole run down.
by drumzalicious on Jun 15, 2009 4:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Gah, what the heck here is what i posted
I’ve said it before and I’m prob the only one who will think this but . .
IF we are so desperate for a bat and we have no financial means left to pursue that bat why don’t we do something unexpected that kinda makes sense.
Why don’t we trade Lowe?
Now I’m not saying this because Lowe did badly today against Baltimore. Just hear me out.
Lowe is a nice arm in any rotation. He ideally is a #2 but could be substituted as a #1. He has great control and will do well as long as he has a good defense behind him catching those ground balls.
Yes he is in his late 30’s but someone wrote an article about how because Lowe didnt become a starter till so late in his career he doesnt have as much mileage on his arm and is essentially coming into his prime as a starter.
Yes I know he is being paid more than a lot of teams would want to pay him as well.
Now what we would need is a team with a pretty good INF Defense. A team that has an OF that we could acquire that would bolster our lineup in a Big Way. And a team that desperately needs pitching.
So I present to you the Texas Rangers.
Here is a team that has a young core of pitchers coming through the gate with Kevin Millwood on his way out and no one to really head the rotation.
They have a very solid defensive infield.
And they have a Bat we could use.
Why dont we trade:
Derek Lowe
Francoeur
Cash (Say 4 Mil a year on Lowe’s Contract)For
Nelson CruzThe Rangers get a Pitcher to slot either behind or infront of Millwood. Lowe also most likely wouldnt see a drastic increase in his ERA since he is a GB pitcher (Although I’m not 100% on this). They also get him for 3 1/2 Years.
Yes they lose Cruz in RF. BUT they gain Frenchy. With the way their hitting coach has turned around Andruw Jones and how Frenchy started the season so much better after being under him not to mention the ballpark his numbers will get better for that team and he will be at least league average.
Then they get Hamilton back in July.
Braves will of course lose their “Staff Ace” but we still have a solid 1/2 behind JJ and Vazquez. Kawakami is pitching like a #3 starter with league average ERA and has shown signs of improvement. From there they can slot Medlen in the #5 hole.
If you want to take it further they could then possibly do a trade for a decent starter to hold them over till Hudson gets back since they will have cleared most of Lowes salary.
Now if you really want to stretch it you could delve into the whole issue that appears to be happening with Escobar where we might see him get traded Escobar and or Kelly Johnson would certainly be enough to net us a pitcher and im talking BETTER than Brad Penny
then this
Look at it this way, we essentially have 3 #2 starters with Lowe just being the best one.
Trade Lowe we still have Vazquez and JJ.
If we trade Escobar/Kelly we could net ourselves a solid #3/4 essentially a guy that will give up 3-4 runs a game and have occasional brilliance
There are a couple of teams that could fit that bill.
San Diego
Minnesota
Cincinnati (although doubtful)
Toronto (Would love one of their young’ns)
Arizona
Oaklandetc. there are teams out there who would love a player of Escobar’s caliber
I personally believe that we will still have a VERY strong and contention worthy rotation especially with the addition of Hudson at the end of the season. You can then put Kawakami in the bullpen for a play off push since he will most likely be a bit tired by then.
In summary you are giving up a guy that will give up 1-2 runs a game for someone that will give up 3-4 but i believe that bat of Cruz’s will make up the difference because the offense would be very capable of scoring 5-6 runs a game.
And in all honesty with Kotchman returning i think it would be even better. just think
McLouth CF
Kotchman 1B
Chipper 3B
Cruz RF
McCann C
Anderson/Diaz LF
KJ 2B
Diory SS.When Kelly gets out of this slump that is a lineup with only one auto out in Diory.
If we go from having 3 #2 Pitchers a #3/4 and a rookie as our rotation to
2#2 pitchers, 2 #3/4 pitchers and a rookie we still own a rotation better than most especially in our division. Then at the end of the year taking out KK and putting him in the pen for the postseason in favor of Huddy will give us back a staff ace with a newer arm than Lowe’s and younger and essentially the same pitcher.
We then dont have to worry about next years rotation and we save around 10 mil. Which will be good to have if we want to fix our team that will be needing bullpen help because the roster will be set everywhere but the bullpen.
We need that 10 mil to retain Soriano and Gonzo. I would just make Soriano the closer over Gonzo.
by drumzalicious on Jun 15, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we've all seen these by now, bro. Figure out a way to condense it. Copying and pasting that much crap is ridiculous.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 15, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thxez! :P
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 15, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you could always just use a hotlink…..
by yondaime4 on Jun 15, 2009 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how do i link to a specific comment
by drumzalicious on Jun 16, 2009 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The date and timestamp is the link.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 16, 2009 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ah ok thanks.
sorry about that you guys
by drumzalicious on Jun 16, 2009 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m hoping any (possible) trade involving Vazquez can be held off until at least the all-star break. Vazquez has been amazing for us and I’d hate to see some of the starting pitching depth we fans clamored for last season to be shipped off so easily. That said, at the trade deadline, it will be pretty easy to tell if we’re buyers or sellers. Teams are already hungry for quality starting pitching so that definitely gives us an advantage regardless of whether we buy or sell.
So, basically, if we’re buyers, what I think we would look for is teams who are still competitive in the division or wild card race looking for that impact starting pitcher to make a difference in exchange for the impact bat to make a difference for us. This definitely would exclude the Mets and Phillies (though they both need starting pitching) as they are in our division but could include the Cubs, Brewers, Reds and Rockies in the NL (and maybe the Astros, they have a never say die attitude). And the Yankees, Blue Jays, Rays, Tigers, Twins, White Sox and Rangers in the AL (I’ve excluded some teams in both leagues who already have a good amount of starting pitching depth, ie- Red Sox, Giants).
So, who could it be? Who would take on Vazquez’s salary and give us something good in return while trying to stay competitive in their own race?
by beeswax on Jun 15, 2009 4:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yankees as a match?
The Yankees need a top of the line setupman, possibly, and happen to have a pretty good, near MLB ready OFer in Austin Jackson. I can’t see Jackson breaking up a (my projected) ’10 Yankee outfield of Holliday/Cabrera/Swisher so Jackson could be expendable. I wonder if we offered up Soriano and maybe a JoJoReyesish prospect or two would they bite in exchange for AJax. This could give us at least adequate production in RF with good defense (ok RF arm and very good range) with potential for much more over the next 4-5 years from AJax. This would also allow us to just about give away Frenchy to anyone who would take his contract.
This would free up some cash so if by the trade deadline we needed to make a deal for a LF power bat we could. But if by the trade deadline and we are out of it and Huddy looks like he is coming back we could trade Vazquez to get the highest amount of prospects and still have our long term investment in AJax in place.
I may be undervalueing or overvalueing AJAX here so let me know what you guys think.
by bbxxj on Jun 15, 2009 5:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I would rather us trade for a bat if we trade with the Yankee’s but the last thing we should trade is one of our back end BP guys. We need Soriano and Gonzo since the rest of the BP is slightly inconsistent. Not to mention Gonzo himself.
I dont know what they are looking for right now aside from maybe a utility infielder that can back up Jeter or something.
Outside of that their rotation is kinda erratic but Phil Hughes might be coming in to replace Wang. Unless they want a vet and even then i dont see them taking Javy back.
On the topic of our Bullpen what do you guys think about trying to go out and acquire some arms for our BP.
There was a rumor posted on AJC that we were in talks with the Rockies for Hawpe. I personally wouldnt mind seeing us go after Houston Street as well. He would give us a excellent arm to go in the back of the BP since Moylan is still recovering and battling with his mechanics a bit. I also think we could use a lefty because outside of EOF we have no one to come in before the 8th/9th innings and we cant expect EOF to go out almost every night.
I see a lot of people setting up Bullpens with
Closer
Setup Man
LOOGY
Long Reliever
and then whoever to fill the last few spots. Why dont we just go all out and have all of our guys as some shutdown relievers. Not all closers but guys who are better than Bennett and Acosta.
I would love to have
Soriano CL
Street RH SU
Gonzo LH SU
Moylan RHP
EOF LOOGY 1
??? LOOGY 2
Medlen Long Reliever.
I mean in all honesty i dont think any of us are truly comfortable when a reliever comes out of our pen except Soriano and thats not good. Our starters should feel good coming out of the game in the 6th inning knowing that we have some solid arms to get us through innings 6 and 7.
by drumzalicious on Jun 15, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Marcus Thames
Tigers are looking for bullpen guys, he probably wouldn’t cost a ton, and he’s got an .878 OPS vs. Lefties over the past three seasons and almost an .800 OPS against righties.
by was385 on Jun 15, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just what we need, another guy who is likely to put up a sub .300 OBP.
by Lennox on Jun 15, 2009 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's amazing
How picky Braves fans are when we have nothing good at the corner outfield spots and there really isn’t that much available that’s in our price range.
by was385 on Jun 15, 2009 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, not seeing the wisdom in replacing one crappy hitter with another crappy hitter is “picky” …
by Lennox on Jun 15, 2009 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously?
We’ve gotten a .705 OPS from LF so far this year and a .631 OPS from right field. Both are solidly among the worst in baseball and our RF problem is second to only the Padres. And this “crappy hitter” has a career line of .259/.325/.536 against lefties and a career .765 OPS vs. righties. Even if he’s just a platoon player in left, I don’t see how you can be so against this.
by was385 on Jun 15, 2009 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s got a career OBP of freakin’ .300, and he’s a butcher in the field.
He’s got crazy power, but how much does that help you when the guy is almost a sure out in the line up.
So, sure, he’s an offensive upgrade over the trash we have, who cares? He’s still not a player that’s going to solve our offensive problems. He’s still not the legitimately good hitter that we need. So, what’s the point?
by Lennox on Jun 15, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, your position is?
That there are only two solutions options for the Braves. Either we have a miserable player or we have a really good player and anything in between just not worth our time?
In my opinion, that’s a bit ridiculous. Chances are we’re not going to get a really good player to plug into the outfield. The Braves can’t add payroll, and we really don’t have that many good trading chips that we’d be willing to move. The likliehood is that the team will be looking for a cheap player that may not solve our offensive problems, but will help make this team better (you can improve without being perfect). And what exactly are you basing this defensive assessment off of (Please don’t tell me you’re just regurgitating some defensive metric without ever having seen him play)?
by was385 on Jun 16, 2009 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stop with the straw men.
My point, quite clearly, is that Thames isn’t a good hitter. He’s a guy whose OPS is skewed by his insane power, but is just as bad as Francoeur is at actually reaching base (aka he makes way too many outs), having too many guys who make too many outs is the primary problem with our offense, Thames does nothing to solve that problem.
He’s a marginal improvement. Making this team marginally better is pointless. This isn’t a team that’s one marginal upgrade away from the playoffs, so why give up whatever trade chips it would take to get Thames when it isn’t actually going to help the team in any real way?
by Lennox on Jun 16, 2009 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree that an .800+ OPS is only marginally better than a sub-.650 OPS and I disagree that someone like Thames won’t help a playoff push but I’m not going to convince you otherwise.
by was385 on Jun 16, 2009 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right, it's more than marginal when just comparing the players directly...
But given the Braves’ particular needs, we’d rather have a guy whose 800 OPS split was 500 OBP/300 SLG than the other way around. We just have entirely too many stretches where we can’t get guys on base, and one solo HR a game from a guy like Thames won’t change that.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 16, 2009 8:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jackson doesn’t fit our needs. We don’t need a young unproven talented kid (we’ve got that in Schafer). We need proven production for a short period of time…if I were Wren I’d look for an expiring contract to see if I could pick it up on the cheap (in terms of prospects).
by soup du jour on Jun 15, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but who fits this description?
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 15, 2009 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Think
Felipe Lopez would be a great pick up and would be a legit leadoff guy that we than could shift everyone in the lineup with Lopez,Esco,NM,Chipper,Mac as the top five in the lineup. Chipper would be than effectively the cleanup hitter. The fact is that the chances the braves will get a LEGIT #4 cleanup hitter that is with in the budget in terms of $$ and prospects worth giving up are very small. The NL is pretty weak over all an you have 10 teams that they “Think” they are still in contention and are more than likely not going to deal away a powerhitter. So if we can’t get that true big banger than we should go for a lead of type guy rental which will get on base to give more opportunities for NM/Chipper/Mac to drive them in. It is a differant approach in utilizing the power we already have because the realist in me says that we won’t get that cleanup hitter till next off season.
by Hanson-Ace on Jun 15, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i like this idea...
a jax is pretty scarry…
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Jun 16, 2009 4:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, at least based on his minor league numbers.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 16, 2009 8:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we don’t start playing like we want to win, it won’t matter who we trade for.
It’s pretty much do or die right now. We can hang right in there, and wait for the Thillies and Mutts to hit a skid (which will happen)……..
or we can keep playing shitty and call it a year. The components are there for us to win right now, but if we strive for .500 and nothing more, we’re going home with “4th place” this year.
"The future is no place to place your better days." - Dave Matthews ~ RIP Roi
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jun 15, 2009 5:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not necessarily true that FW could make a move that would improve us this year but still be around in 10’ in which I think is more important now than just gearing up all the eggs in on basket approach to this year only. Make move that helps us now and next yr would be the best move.
by Hanson-Ace on Jun 15, 2009 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lets wait and see before we talk about trading Javy
Unless it involves trading FYF, i really dont wanna make any more moves until the all-star break. MAYBE when Kotch gets back, our lineup will start coming around and its our bullpen that we try to improve.
Lets have some fun. Lets say we somehow came up with Carlos Lee and Jeremy Hermida. I really dont wanna think about who would be traded, who would be sent down/called up, etc. but lets figure FYF and Javy V would both be dealt along with a prospect or two. I could see KJ or Esco being dealt as well this season, but i dont wanna think about that. Think about this:
McLouth
Escobar
Chipper
Lee
McCann
Hermida
Kotchman
KJ
Lowe
Jurrjens
Kawakami
Hanson
Medlen
While i REALLY like our new lineup, i worry about that rotation. We’re essentially relying on 3 rookies, a 2nd year pitcher and a veteran “ace”. Im not sure that rotation is good enough to make the playoffs.
AB: Jeff Francoeur
Pitching: Any pitcher in MLB
Runners: Escobar at 3rd, Chipper at 2nd, McCann at 1st.
Pitch 1: In play, out(s)
by mvhsbball on Jun 15, 2009 8:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
gondee says a Texieira like player I say we go after victor Martinez.
Baseball is my life
by That a boy on Jun 15, 2009 9:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Why trade away our Ace?
It makes no sense to me why we’d trade away Vasquez. He’s the best thing we’ve got going besides McCann.
Trade away Frenchy, Escobar, KJ, and Garrett, and let Blanco, Hernandez, Prado, Diaz, etc fill the gaps and get a BIG bat for the outfield. Hell, bring (I hate to say it) Schafer back up, if necessary.
by Audi on Jun 15, 2009 9:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Other trade bait
…could include:
Gonzo
Moylan
Kawakami
minor starters
by Audi on Jun 15, 2009 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol indeed
we really have none about single A that are of any interest to any clubs
by drumzalicious on Jun 16, 2009 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously we just signed John Halama to fill out AAA. We don’t have anyone to trade at this point outside Rome and those guys are worth enough yet to start shopping around. Plus I don’t want to completely GUT our system.
by yondaime4 on Jun 16, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When we traded for Vazquez, it was a guy we'd "had our eye on for years..."
But sure, let’s trade the NL leader in strikeouts after 12-13 starts.
I hope Tyler Flowers hits 50 homers every year.
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Jun 15, 2009 9:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
so let me get this straight? Even if we trade Vazquez for someone who actually makes the team better you want it bite us in the ass because you think he is invaluable. Glad we have fans like you!
by yondaime4 on Jun 15, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since when are strikeouts the be-all and end-all?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 16, 2009 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Brandon Webb has been a great pitcher without ever hitting 200 Ks. Mike Mussina has only hit that mark three times and has an even lower career K rate. Lackey and Wang are another couple of pitchers who have been successful without racking up lots of strikeouts. I’m not going back very far here.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 16, 2009 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i wonder if a good team with bad pitching would trade a bat strait up for javy
by Heyward is the next crime dog on Jun 15, 2009 9:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I would look to get a quality bat and a set up man. I think Javy could fetch that too, he leads the league in Ks.
by MatM on Jun 15, 2009 9:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not saying we should, but what if....
…we (Wren/Cox) chose to trade Escobar? With a team like the Red Sox, who have heaps of good prospects, yearning for for a top tier shortstop, right now might be as good as a time to deal him as any. Escobar isn’t going to be replaceable at short but if he could bring in a massive haul from the pink-hats then I think we should at least consider it. What if Theo called up Wren and said “Buchholz, Bard, and Green/Lowrie for Escobar and Frenchy (along with all of his salary)” If you were Wren would you hang up the phone or would you start calling other GM’s to see what kind of OFer you could get for Gonzo/Soriano because you could then replace one or both of them with the two young arms you got in return. Lets just say Rangers GM replies and says he would give N. Cruz and a good MI AA level prospect for Gonzo and Soriano. Would you trade two closer/setup pending FA, a very valuable controlable SS, and a RF black hole for a young closer, young SP/Closer?, power hitting RH RFer with some speed, and a MI depth prospect?
I know that was just kind of like a pile of thought but it would be interesting to see something of that magnitude go down.
Not saying I would, but what if…
by bbxxj on Jun 15, 2009 11:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’d do the first ceal in a second. Bard is a 100 mph closer under control for 6 yrs, Buch should be at worst a killer #3, and Lowrie is decent.
by graf on Jun 15, 2009 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do not understand why you guys keep trying to trade Soriano and Gonzo. They are the only thing that holds our BP together.
Bard is nice and Bucholtz would go in the rotation.
From there you can trade one of our starters Lowe, Javy etc for a bat. and replace his arm in the rotation with Bucholtz.
by drumzalicious on Jun 16, 2009 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
It is due to the simple fact that Gonzo and Soriano will be gone after the end of this year. We should be looking to compete this year but really, really, compete over the next decade. Rebuilding our team in this manner would help compete not just this year but in years to follow. One of Bard, Buchholz, Medlen, or eventually maybe Hudddy should solidly claim the closer position in the above situation with the others setting him up. But then after this year all we would need to get in the offseason would be a solid veteran SS with a solid glove (Wilson or Scutaro come to mind), maybe a KJ replacement in O.Hudson or F.Lopez to hit second, and a veteran reliever to set up Bard/Medlen or let Bard/Medlen set him up. You would then have a good controlable OF of McLouth/Schafer/Cruz, a loaded starting staff (from which to deal from if needed), and a good young pen with a ton of upside. Sounds like a recipe for long term succes to me, yes?
by bbxxj on Jun 16, 2009 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
first off. Bucholtz will be a starter if we acquire him.
second Gonzo and Soriano are not impossible to retain and we can at least retain Soriano.
the rest is just ugh
by drumzalicious on Jun 16, 2009 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
1. Why the hell would BUCHHOLZ have to start right away?
2. We could still sign Soriano/Gonzo in the offseason, yes?
3. ‘ugh’ please explain.
by bbxxj on Jun 16, 2009 7:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
1. Because there’s no sense in throwing a kid who’s been an exceptional starter his entire career into the bullpen.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 16, 2009 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Smoltz, Lowe, Price...
Good starters can be converted to closers for short periods if there is a need/no room in the rotation.
Look, the sitiuation above would never happen. It was more like what if we traded Escobar to Bos for young pen/rotation arms to short term replace our pending FA closers whom we could flip to get a big bat and/or clear up salary for a big back. Its not an exact science but I wanted to throw some names out there. If you wanted to just replace Buchholz with Declareman and Masterson who can be ‘relievers’ and Bos might be more willing to do that deal anyways.
by bbxxj on Jun 16, 2009 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and...
those 2 draft picks could be VERY valuable in next year’s draft (much deeper and talented overall than this year’s).
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Jun 16, 2009 4:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Getting all of the picks from Gonzo/Soriano leaving would mean both left. Who would close then? I’m sure there is a good chance Medlen could handle it but I don’t know if I want to rely on just one good option.
by bbxxj on Jun 16, 2009 7:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sori won’t get us a pick and Gonzo isn’t a lock to. They were both out most of last year and Type A/B is compiled from your last two season’s numbers
by graf on Jun 16, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong.
Gonzalez was a B last year despite ’07’s 17 IP. So he’ll likely be an A. And Soriano was an A himself inclusive of ’08, and is on pace for a season to equal or better his ’07 year, so he certainly could be too.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 16, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeap
depending on who signs them, we could, possibly, have 3 first rounders and 2 supplemental picks next year. that means, of the top 38 picks, we’d have 1/7 of them.
and next year’s draft will have Bryce Harper and MANY MANY MANY more players that could restock and retool our farm system.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Jun 16, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why trade away four regular starters?
Trading away 4 regular starters (Escobar has been good despite some defensive lapses lately, and Anderson has been getting used to the NL) isn’t possibly worth it for even the biggest bat you can think of. Bobby Cox obviously doesn’t want to trade away Anderson. Cox has said Garrett will be a HUGE part of our lineup and he is very excited about him……changing leauges takes time to get used to. I think when Kotchman comes back we will see a significant change in the offense seeing as how he and McClouth haven’t been in the lineup at the same time yet……especially in the Boston series when Canizares possibly can DH.
by Braves199 on Jun 15, 2009 11:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Interesting...
Interesting idea but with how good Gonzo and especially Sors have been so far this year putting trust in a rookie closer in place of them is very risky and could end up being regretted immensely….especially since we won’t have a good combo of a lefty and a righty with just one closer.
by Braves199 on Jun 15, 2009 11:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Javy
Please say “No Way” to using him as trade bait.
by HEYJUDE on Jun 15, 2009 11:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yuck.
I said this before, and it’s true: the only way to afford getting better in both the fair trade and financial senses is to trade Javy Vazquez. Those of you who have looked at our finances for next year know that even with the likes of Anderson and Norton leaving, guys like Francouer, Johnson and Diaz will likely have to be shed in order to afford the rest of our players and a reasonable closer. I’m starting to think that we may be best off by simply looking at our internal options to pick up the slack for our failing hitters. We’ve accumulated a ton of negative value from our OF and simply getting healthy and replacement level from other guys in their stead, our pitching may be able to get us over the hump. If not, then it’s not worth making such a radical push for the playoffs this year.
"The mystic chords of fandom, stretching from every trade and signing to every active account and guest all over this broadband, will yet swell the chorus of union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature". ~ Abraham Lincoln-ish
"The tree of victory must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of quarterbacks and coaches". ~ Thomas Jefferson-ish
by ejruiz on Jun 15, 2009 11:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The long-term deal makes him FAR less attractive.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 16, 2009 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would be really disappointed to see Javy go, as well
I think there’s definately something to be said about the fact that Javy is having the best year of his career, WITH US! We knew he had a lot of talent but who would have expected what we’ve gotten so far? I know I’m just echoing what a lot of folks are saying, but I really think we may be onto something here. Javy makes watching the Braves fun again.
"When life gives you lemons, just say 'F*ck the lemons,' and bail."
by Bravely going forward on Jun 16, 2009 1:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
exactly why he shouldnt be traded. Lowe on the other hand can be traded. just ea a few mil of his contract per year and a lot more teams would be interested.
heck you got teams like the Brewers. Rangers, Indians, Astros, etc
also all this talk of Carlos Lee is crazy we need a cheap OF bat and one that if needed could play RF
by drumzalicious on Jun 16, 2009 2:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would you STOP saying that we should trade Lowe. He has zero trade value, and when was the last time the Braves paid money to trade away a player.
by gondeee on Jun 16, 2009 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zero Trade Value?
I seriously doubt that those teams that really need a starter would look at Lowe as invaluable when you are paying part of his contract.
Lowe at 10 mil a year for 3 years is nothing to scoff at and the only reason more teams didnt go after him this offseason was because they knew that his ticket would be above that 10 mil range.
Also i dont see a problem with trading a player you just signed if it makes your team cheaper, younger and better all around. your starting staff goes from an A+ to an A/B+ and your Offense goes from a C+ to at least a B+.
by drumzalicious on Jun 16, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lowe wouldn't net us a full letter grade improvment in offense...PERIOD.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 16, 2009 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nelson Cruz isnt a full leter grade above Frenchy?
Or even Garrett Anderson?
come on now.
by drumzalicious on Jun 16, 2009 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lowe won't get us Cruz.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 16, 2009 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
when i was referring to Lowe + FYF + Cash i knew it would take more that was meant as a starting point.
by drumzalicious on Jun 17, 2009 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong.
A career year is exactly why a player should be traded.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 16, 2009 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i understand your point, but you also have to recognize the huge gamble involved in moving a guy who’s obviously comfortable and successful where he is, in hopes that another guy can make a similarly easy transition between teams/leagues. we gave up some decent prospects for javy in hopes he could reignite his career in atlanta, and we were lucky enough to get everything we could have hoped for in return. do we really want to tempt fate and bank on a big bat making an immediate impact here, while absolutely giving up a guy we were lucky enough to get at the peak of his career?
"When life gives you lemons, just say 'F*ck the lemons,' and bail."
by Bravely going forward on Jun 16, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We got Javy when we didn’t think we could get two other guys, but we did. When Hudson comes back we will clearly have too much starting pitching at the major league level (assuming Hanson continues to improve). All the other trade suggestions I’ve seen that include any other Braves players, have us getting a low-impact bat in return or are just plain lunacy. If anything, Vazquez has increased his trade value with the Braves and could be moved for many more valuable pieces.
by gondeee on Jun 16, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good points. Glad I’m not the one making these decisions.
"When life gives you lemons, just say 'F*ck the lemons,' and bail."
by Bravely going forward on Jun 16, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can never have too much starting pitching
in MLB.
Period. Full stop. End of story. If in doubt, re-read post title. Or revisit 2008 Braves for confirmation.
by fphjr01 on Jun 16, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
...Unless you're paying a guy $8 mil a year (Kawakami) to be a middle reliever or to start in the minors.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 16, 2009 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To much Rosrterbation here.
Lowe is our ace, he isn’t going anywhere. We just signed him to a 4 year contract, we are not trading him. Bobby Cox has coveted Javy for years, and even if we wanted to trade him, the Yankees don,t want him back, the Sox don’t need him, the White Sox don’t want him any more. Kawakami is our ticket to more of japans players so don’t even think about it. The two closers we have could be traded, but what if we do get hot towards the end and we are in reach, I would want them there. Maybe if we just look more to next year and the staff we could have then add an impact bat( not likely) or just wait for the talent to develop.
Proof that when posting while high or intoxicated can lead to some really funny posts
by bravesrbaseball on Jun 16, 2009 9:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
two words for you
Texas Rangers.
in regards to Javy.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Jun 16, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus Lowe gets really good towards the end just look into his second half numbers from a year ago.
Proof that when posting while high or intoxicated can lead to some really funny posts
by bravesrbaseball on Jun 16, 2009 9:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This team is more than a trade or 2 away from being a contender.
Let’s face it, trading one of our starters for offense is not going to make much of a difference. There are noticeable holes in this lineup that can be fixed, but not in the middle of a season. We’re just going to have to painfully wait this one out and look ahead to 2010 and beyond. The Phillies are already 6.5 up on us and 7 teams ahead in the wild card. Plus, we lack the swagger it takes to win close games and to get on a hot streak to make the playoffs.
by SUGMG4 on Jun 16, 2009 9:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
All of you are going to go blind if you keep this up
The New Punchout for Nintendo Wii......get it
by bravesguy311 on Jun 16, 2009 10:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I have an Idea
we do a 4 team trade.
We give Lowe to the Brewers for Ryan Braun, we give Vasquez to St Louis for Pujols, we throw Escobar at Boston for Bay, and we give Medlen and Locke to Washington for Dunn.
Then we could use Diory at SS until Infante, the rotation would be JJ, Hanson, KK, Campillo (when he comes back) and Bennett, our BP is the same and our offense is stacked.
Our lineup would look like this:
McLouth – CF
Dunn – LF
Chipper – 3B
Bay – RF
Pujols – 1B
McCann – C
KJ – 2B
Infante- SS
Pitcher
Bench – Kotchman, Diaz, FYF, Ross, Anderson
Our SP is a little weak, but with that lineup it shouldnt matter.
Yes, let’s do this!
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 16, 2009 10:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Too bad we traded Locke a week and a half ago. Otherwise your scenario was perfect.
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jun 16, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blast!
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 16, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, if you want to be a jackass at least get our prospects right.
by bbxxj on Jun 16, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The trades are pretty damn good, except that we don’t have Locke to trade, but Pujols batting 5th? Srsly?
by Sparhawk on Jun 16, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's how good we are
Pujols in the 5…or maybe swap him and Chipper…
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 16, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WTF Gondeee?
This site in general has been on a massive decline, somewhere right around the time when McLouth was acquired and T Hanson made his first start. Since then has been nothing but nonsense speculation and rosterbation. Frankly, I was surprised to see a long winded attempt at masking a rosterbatory post as such from a site “manager”. But whatever.
The long and short of it is this. This team is not a playoff team this year. The Braves haven’t played a winning month of baseball since April 2008, and have shown no signs of doing so this year. Making more moves to potentially improve the short term (this year) at the expense of the long term (2010 and beyond) doesn’t make any sense to me. Trade the 4th best starter in the NL (after Lincecum, Santana, Haren, yes, that’s our own JV) for another bat? Not buying it. At this point, I’d like to see the Braves stand pat, work on things that need working on: Yunel with paying attention and young pitchers MLB experience and position for next year and beyond.
Right now, today, we are 6.5 games out of first and 4 back in the wild card. The Phillies will add a starting pitcher at some point, and the craptacularness that has been their rotation to date will likely improve. I doubt we catch them, especially when we can play winning baseball for a month. A .580 record the rest of the way for an even shot at making the playoffs? Aint gonna happen folks!
Go Braves 2010 and beyond.
by fphjr01 on Jun 16, 2009 10:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The only reason we trade JV is if we are out of the playoff picture. His trade value is so high we could bring in a haul for him why not do it. if you say we are not going to win till 2010 he is expandable because we will have Hudson hopefully in 2010. The braves cant afford both of these pitchers, because we would look even worse then we do now because we will not have the money to improve our offense.
Baseball is my life
by That a boy on Jun 16, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
expendable…
lol
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 16, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Braves May 2009 Record
15-14
That is a winning record.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 16, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
excellent catch
they have played a few months of 1 game over .500 ball — the other times were in Sept, once they were clearly out of the race. I think you still get the point.
by fphjr01 on Jun 16, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do get the point
but to say that they have shown no signs of improvement lately is just wrong. They showed a good spark last month.
Call me crazy, but I would like to see our complete offensive lineup in a game before I write this team off. Kotch has not played with McLouth in the lineup yet.
That could be a HUGE difference.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 16, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Never said we haven't improved
We have — from a 72-90 team to somewhere around 80-85 victory team. That’s still not playoff-calibre, Kotchman in lineup or not.
Last point I’ll make in this pointless discussion is that the Braves have played one of, if not the most, pathetic schedules in all of baseball to this point, and have arrived at 30-32 b/c of it. We have many more good teams than bad left on the sched, and about the only optimistic thing you can say is we have 13 games against the Mets and 12 v. the Phillies to make up the difference we are currently facing. Can’t wait to see Kotch and McL in the lineup for 9 games against the Yanks and Red Sox to close out the month. Yeah, we’re going places alright…
Just so you know, I’d LOVE to be proven wrong, I just don’t see it happening. “Blow up the team now” is not my preferred response.
by fphjr01 on Jun 16, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
f*ck that!
Go Braves this year. Last I checked we had 100 games left to play.
"When life gives you lemons, just say 'F*ck the lemons,' and bail."
by Bravely going forward on Jun 16, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
THIS
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 16, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But it's do or die
If we don’t start winning series NOW, it’s over. After losing Orioles series, and splitting the Pirates series, my guess is we get pwned by the Cubs, Sox, and Yankees, and that my friends, will be the nail in the coffin.
Of course, I would love to be proved wrong. But we are sucking like no other.
"The future is no place to place your better days." - Dave Matthews ~ RIP Roi
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jun 16, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
granted, each game will become increasingly important as we try to climb back up the ranks, but the simple fact is WE DON’T KNOW what will happen. we could just as easily play to the level of our competition over the next couple of weeks and go into the all-star break strong. there’s just no point in being so negative at this point. whether we win it all or not, we have a lot of games to play and i’m going to enjoy all of them.
"When life gives you lemons, just say 'F*ck the lemons,' and bail."
by Bravely going forward on Jun 16, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
can we steal some of the thillies momentum/drive?
"The future is no place to place your better days." - Dave Matthews ~ RIP Roi
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Jun 16, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
THIS
+20. Common sense and level-headedness prevail.
by hoboken_wood on Jun 16, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Having a high trade value
and trading the best pitcher on your staff are two different things entirely. People think JV is our #3 starter. He’s not. He’s our #1, by the stats, and has been utterly dominant. You don’t trade him just like you don’t trade Hanson, Heyward, and Freeman.
By acquiring McL and assuming Schafer returns to fill another outfield spot, we CAN afford JV and Hudson next year. It just means we’ll have $8M to spend b/t a closer and a corner outfield spot.
People also automatically assume that Hudson is going to come back and be just as good if not better than he was. I ask those same folks to compare Moylan’s performance this year to 2007 as an example, and then imagine him pitching every 5th day. I’m not saying Tim is going to suck, but I am saying he’s not coming right back to be the staff ace right away. Not picking up his option is not necessarily a bad thing.
by fphjr01 on Jun 16, 2009 11:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Too little too late
We spent all offseason bolstering the pitching staff, you can’t just go back on all that now. We’ve already shot ourselves in the foot (am I the only one who remembers we completely balked at a chance to land Adam Dunn?), and with the market the way it is I really don’t see any way we can make an upgrade that’ll justify breaking up arguably the most formidable rotation in the NL.
by ktsparks on Jun 16, 2009 9:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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