An affordable improvement to the offensive woes
While I’m elated to see Nate McLouth in an Atlanta uniform (a .600 OPS from your everyday centerfielder will do that for you), there’s still work to be done. Before I get into this, I’d just like to point out that this isn’t a frustrated bitching post (I’ll save that for the day after a tough loss) and I don’t want any sarcastic responses about me applying for Wren’s job. This is an innocent idea that will hopefully spark some good discussion.
With that disclaimer out of the way, I can get into the real meat and potatoes of this post. As I said, while the McLouth trade was a huge step in the right direction (and I applaud Wren for making such a big move early on), it leaves the front office in a tough position. The organization’s frustration with Jeff Francoeur’s lack of production seems to finally be catching up with his, well…. lack of production. On top of that, it looks as though Greg Norton may have run his course with the Braves, leaving Bobby Cox without a consistent power source off the bench (as much as you could call Norton a power source). The problem is of course that the team seems to be out of money now that they’re paying McLouth’s $2 million salary. That financial inflexibility combined with an economy that will put a premium on cheap fixes this trading season means that a creative solution will be necessary to further strengthen the team.
With all that said, I come to my ingenious solution (that I blatantly ripped off from MLBTR) -- Shelley Duncan. He’s not the sexy acquisition (I’m lookin’ at you Matt Holliday), but he fits what the Braves need and maybe most importantly, is affordable in terms of salary and what it would take to acquire him. He can play both corner outfield spots, bring quite a bit of power off the bench, and back up first if when Martin Prado is filling in for Chipper at third. And on top of everything, he’s right-handed (hasn’t that become a rare thing in Atlanta?). Duncan is currently making International League pitchers wet themselves for the Yankees’ triple-A affiliate to the tune of a .310/.379/.670 line with 20 homers. Obviously a 29-year old AAAA slugger isn’t going to be that successful in the majors, but his small amount of major league experience definitely warrants more of a look that the Yankees really can’t provide. In ’07 he posted an .883 OPS in 74 at-bats with a .255 BABIP and while he struggled mightily last season, his .202 BABIP more than likely had a significant hand in that.
No one should be expecting too much with Duncan. He’ll give you loads of power, a good amount of strikeouts (25.2% in 133 career MLB at-bats), and a mediocre on-base skills (Atlanta fans shouldn’t be too picky at this point). What makes this even more appealing is that we actually match up fairly well with the Yankees as trading partners. Atlanta has a glut of pitching and the Yankees bullpen is truly painful to watch (4.85 ERA). The Braves have surplus arms like Boone Logan, James Parr, and Luis Valdez seemingly trapped in Gwinnett, that may interest the Yankees for a player of little to no value to them. Would this move make our opponents shake in awe of our offense? No, I don’t think that’ll happen regardless of what Wren does. What this will do is affordably give the Braves a shot at solving some of their offensive woes and some right-handed power to change up what is a lefty-heavy lineup. Thoughts?
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54 comments
Comments
Thread Hijack
this isnt worth a fanpost of its own, but This Week in Baseball is featuring the Braves this week – focusing on the success of Bobby Cox and his 2,000 wins with Atlanta.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 13, 2009 3:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yes, it is…
oh, and I like your idea. I am not a huge fan of Shelly Duncan, but I like the thought process.
FYI, there is a thread created just for this type of thing. We are trying to prevent everyone and their mothers from posting ridiculous trade proposals and cluttering the fanposts with them (not that yours is ridiculous).
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 13, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, I'm not a huge fan of his either
but with the team’s financial state, I don’t think there’s anyone we could realistically get that I’d be a “fan” of, but there are some potentially beneficial low-risk moves out there.
by was385 on Jun 13, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
bring back..
MATT ESQUIVEL!!! I thought he was better than FYF anyways…
- I miss Spooneybarger :(
by Mighty Healthy on Jun 13, 2009 3:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Edmonds or Gonzalez
How much do you think it would take to get Jim Edmonds or Luis Gonzalez for the rest of the season? No one has a lot of financial flexibility, so if we could offer them some playing time and the chance to earn one more contract maybe they would bite. None of these are attractive ideas, nor are they likely improve the club significantly. Nevertheless, any of the guys mentioned in this post could give us better offense than Norton or FYF.
I would rather see us fill the void with internal options, but it does not appear that will happen. Why can’t we give Barton, Swagga, or Blanco a longer look in the outfield. All of them are an upgrade defensively over Anderson. Why not let one of these guys split time in LF and RF to cut down on awful AB’s from FYF and Anderson. FYF would be a great defensive replacement at the end of a game for the rest of the season and he can’t do much worse as a pinch hitter.
by gutisking on Jun 13, 2009 5:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I would love Edmonds
but for some reason, no one seems to have any interest and that probably means there is something we don’t know so I’ve given up on that.
As far as guys you mention like Blanco and Barton, they may be better than Francoeur (not hard) but they’re still pretty bad.
by was385 on Jun 13, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If they haven't signed up for somebody by this point...
I don’t know if they will. Gonzalez seems pretty sure he wants to play for the Marlins and I haven’t seen anything out of the Edmonds camp since the winter.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 13, 2009 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok first off why trade for Duncan??? We have Brandon Jones in our minors that is better than him, and he can also play both OF positions. I know you made the case for Duncan to play first but i like this Canizares guy wayyyy more than Duncan. I would like to see Canizares(i hope i spelled his name right) in the majors to backup Kotchman. Brandon Jones and Canizares are wayyyyy better options for this club than Duncan.
braves#1
by rockybull on Jun 13, 2009 5:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
well
Jones is slugging a cool .374 in AAA. If you’re striking out over 20% of the time in AAA with absolutely no power, then your batting average is not going to be good in the majors (.400 BABIP in AAA) and his on-base ability while impressive, has been his only contribution for Gwinnett.
I like Canizares too and when he can manage one or both of the corner spots, I’ll think he has a serious shot to contribute for this team. If we had good production from those spots, then you can afford to carry a guy limited solely to first to just be the bat, but we definitely don’t have good production from the corner outfield.
by was385 on Jun 13, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah but Jones is an above average defensive OF while Duncan isn’t. So whatever offense he would bring he would negate that with his defense out there. We have a better chance at bringin up Jones and keepin Canizares in the bigs than trading for Duncan in my opinion.
braves#1
by rockybull on Jun 14, 2009 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But what happens with Canizares when Kotchman is back up in two days?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 14, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DFA Greg Norton. I realize he is on the DL at the moment but try to keep Canizares on this roster, DFA Norton when he is eligible to come back. I like Norton and liked what he did last year but his time with Atlanta has got to come to an end. I know pinch hitters aren’t gonna get alot of hits but 4 hits in about 41 or so at bats is rediculous.
braves#1
by rockybull on Jun 14, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But the question, then, would be whether Canizares has the proper approach and preparation methods to succeed as a PH.
That’s a tough thing to ask out of a rookie.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 14, 2009 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
true
but i would take that chance than keep lettin Norton get the PH at bats and doin NOTHIN with it. And plus Canizares is close to 30 anyway so i think he will be ok with PH. Its either starting in AAA or PH and gettin an occational start here and there with the big club. Or we go out and get a better PH lol i think it would be easier to keep Canizares up and let him PH for us. I think he will be fine in that role in my opinion. Cant get much worst this season than Norton.
braves#1
by rockybull on Jun 14, 2009 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How well does Duncan play the OF?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 13, 2009 7:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
not too good
It’s not Garrett Anderson bad but he doesn’t have great range. Still, for relatively little, I’ll take that because right now we’re getting terrible defense and offense.
by was385 on Jun 13, 2009 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In that case, I'm with you...
Although it’s really pretty hard to say he’d be a definite upgrade over either Anderson or FYF. He’s shown downside lower than either of them in his stint last year (small sample size, I know), and his upside isn’t that of theirs either.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 13, 2009 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, the upside is
decent average, decent OBP, and a ton of power, and I’m pretty sure that’s better than Francoeur will be able to manage this season and probably Anderson too (who doesn’t have defense to save him).
But I do see your point and he’s definitely not a definite thing, but he’s a cheap guy to bring in, be some power off the bench, and potentially help us out in the outfield. A low-risk gamble with some pretty high upside.
by was385 on Jun 13, 2009 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shelly Duncan is absolute butcher in the field. Getting him to do anything other than DH would be ridiculous.
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jun 13, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is he Garrett Anderson bad? Worse (if that is even possible)?
by fandave on Jun 14, 2009 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s probably David Ortiz bad. The dude is like 6’5", 250 pounds. He can’t move well enough to play the OF, he can barely move well enough to play 1B and he’s a butcher there too.
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jun 14, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, you've never seen him play the outfield have you?
And this is all based off of assumptions? I haven’t watched him a lot, but I can tell you a couple things. The first is that he is faster and has more range than Garrett Anderson. The second is that he doesn’t look completely lost out there in terms of routes. He’s definitely not even going to be average because of his lack of range but seriously, we’ve got nothing in the outfield right now and having him as a bench bat with the possibility of giving us some power in the outfield seems to be pretty reasonable.
by was385 on Jun 14, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Saying CB hasn’t seen a triple A player is a pretty big mistake
by bigjoe on Jun 14, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
AGREED Bigjoe!!!
CB from what he has said on here has seen alot of games and alot of players, so i would trust his opinion on this situation over other guys on here thats for sure.
braves#1
by rockybull on Jun 14, 2009 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve seen Duncan at various times over the course of 4 seasons and he’s played 1B, LF, RF, and DH the times I’ve seen him. The fact that you think he’s acceptable in the field leads me to question your ability to judge a baseball player.
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jun 15, 2009 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's your opinion
I have mine. When we’re getting just as bad defense from Garrett Anderson and no offense, I’m willing to take a fairly small risk. If we had anything better, then I’d agree with you that it isn’t worth it, but we don’t.
by was385 on Jun 15, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
cbwilk has actually seen this guy play on several occasions. his opinion of minor league talent is pretty accurate (from what i have read so far).
I wouldn’t go dismissing his opinion simply because you want to disagree with it.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 15, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how am I dismissing his opinion?
I clearly said that he is entitled to his opinion but I have a different one. I’m not just guessing on Duncan, I live in the NY area, all my friends are Yankees fans, I watch plenty of Yankees games and I’ve seen Duncan play plenty of times. I’m not saying the man is good or even average, I’m just saying that I think based off of what we have, that he’s worth a shot.
by was385 on Jun 15, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 15, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I looove the idea of signing a AAAA Slugger type. I mean, why not? We are getting below replacement level play from RF. Getting back to replacement level is step 1. We don’t need all stars out there
by eaheckman10 on Jun 13, 2009 10:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i hope your jokin eaheck. Cause Frenchy defense is way better than Duncan and who knows if Duncan could even outhit Frenchy in the majors. Didn’t McPhearson hit like 42 homers last year in AAA? Yeah he isn’t worth a lick in the majors though. Players like Duncan and McPhearson look good in AAA but all they are is AAAA players and prolly cant even outhit Frenchy in the majors which is really sad lol, and even if Duncan could outhit him i dont figure he would outhit him much and his bad defense would still make Frenchy the better player as hard as that is to believe.
braves#1
by rockybull on Jun 14, 2009 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not trying to be a smartass
As I have been accused of being many times now…
but isn’t AAAA by definition below replacement level as well?
by Andy Braves Fan on Jun 15, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
why dont we call up Randy Gress he will solve all of our offensive problems
by Heyward is the next crime dog on Jun 14, 2009 2:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Probably not Duncan but there is a point to be made here...
There are some teams that seemingly always picking guys up off the waiver wire and producing contributors. Teams like St. Louis have done a good job with offensive players like Ludwick as well as pitchers like Lohse or Piniero. Atlanta has done a fairly good job with the pitchers over the years…taking journeymen and making them productive pitchers. However, they haven’t been able to find those guys offensively…nor have they really given it much of a try.
I think there is a point to looking at older AAA hitters who have come on as of late, or guys have upside but have been injured etc. That can come in and compete for a roster spot in Spring Training and fill out a AAA roster and give you some depth when you need it.
I would never trade for Shelly Duncan, but he would someone nice to have in AAA. In order to do that you have to be targeting upside guys for AAA and persue them. We don’t do that. How nice would it have been the last couple years to have a Jorge Cantu, or Ryan Freel, or Casey Blake, or Marlon Byrd, or Jack Cust, etc down in AAA to call up and fill out a roster…or take a role spot. Heck…we are desperate for offense. Are you telling me we can’t find a pair of AAA journeymen that in platooning role, can’t out produce Frenchy or GA?
(And before everyone chimes in…Yes..I realize that Diaz fits this description, but he is the exception to the rule for the Braves).
by calbers on Jun 15, 2009 7:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There was Scott Spezio.
And THAT didn’t work out so well.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 15, 2009 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“he did not come in a condition to play”
by bigjoe on Jun 15, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We did this exact thing last year
When we picked up Greg Norton…he was a monster off the bench this past season after being released by Seattle.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 15, 2009 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The biggest problem I see in why can’t do this too well is our coaching staff the ML level, specifically Terry Pendleton. I know he was an MVP in the early 90s, and was significant in turning around this franchise, but in order to pick someone up through waivers or free agents like you suggested, you have to be able to coach them effectively. He can’t do that. He can’t even do that with the players that we have. Its been pointed out that Chipper and McCann both go to their dads for help. Since TP took over in 2001, who has actually developed into a good hitter with him as coach?
by dlkinser86 on Jun 15, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Arguments could be made for:
Brian Jordan
Julio Franco
Marcus Giles
Johnny Estrada
Adam LaRoche
Charles Thomas
Brian McCann
Matt Diaz
Edgar Renteria
Yunel Escobar
Some were players who began their major league careers here under Pendleton, others were veterans who either had bounceback seasons after a few down years or had their most success under Pendleton .
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 15, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh...
And Mark Kotsay, when he played last year, was as good as he’s been in the last five years or so.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 15, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That could have been a benefit
of hitting in front of a guy who was hitting .400 for much of the season…
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 15, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair. But I was just throwing out possible answers of guys TP MAY have helped.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 15, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
...could have been a product of his (realtive) health, too.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 15, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
true-speak here.
I have always (somewhat) liked Kotsay. I think he did an admirable job here in Atl when he was healthy.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 15, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I definitely think the current “swing-away” approach is a result of Pendleton’s coaching. If you look at TP’s career numbers, he was never a big OBP guy himself. Even in his MVP year his BA was .319 and his OBP was .363 (or something like that). That’s pretty low. Definitely makes me think he doesn’t stress the importance of working counts or that a walk is as good as a hit.
by beeswax on Jun 15, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then again...
It’s not something that’s really emphasized in our system. Can you think of a guy who walked a ton either in the minors or before he came here as an FA that suddenly became a free swinger?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 15, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe Kelly Johnson. His OBP just seems to keep going down every year.
by beeswax on Jun 15, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a tough one
I like By’s argument but some of the counters are equally good. It is my belief tha TP is being groomed for Bobby’s replacement. One of his students was HOOOLIEOO Franco. I don’t know how much of a free swinger he was before he got here but as I remember he was one of the best 2 strike hitters.(with opposite field PWR)…since TP. Maybe this is a hard lesson to teach…he gets the student to two strikes but they don’t understand the next part of the “half-contact” on purpose foul off that follows (X 2,3, 4 etc) and instead wildly flail at strike three our stand statuesque looking at strike three. It is my guess that maybe he is a liitle too apt to try to help out what does not need to be fixed. You would hope that he should only help them adjust to the bigs not rework what got them there!
by bravestatoo on Jun 16, 2009 4:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
How's about
Why doesn’t someone show some gumption and sit Francouer and play Diaz? He certainly cannot be any worse.
by kalesi on Jun 17, 2009 11:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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