Organizational Plate Discipline - Or Why Yunel Escobar is trying to kill me
by Sid Bream's Moustache on Apr 29, 2009 12:14 PM EDT
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Let's be honest, after the orgasmic first couple of games, watching our offense this year has been about as thrilling as a 24-hour CSPAN session, or reading three volumes of tax code. With the rare outlier, it is an interminable parade of 1 or 2 run showings. We are showing little power, and definately not hitting with runners in scoring position. But what disturbs me most this year is our complete and utter lack of plate discipline.
We put the first pitch in play far to often. We swing at anything near or around the strike zone. I show more discipline at the plate at my softball games when I'm 8 beers deep. I decided to do a little digging.
As of today, the Braves are DEAD LAST in the MLB in Pitches Seen per Plate Appearance, with a mark of 3.55. That number would have been dead last in 2008 also. Who are the culprits? Attached is a breakdown, from best to worst(three guesses who that ends up being):
- Jordan Schafer - 4.10
- Omar Infante - 3.88
- LEAGUE AVG - 3.85
- Casey Kotchman - 3.75
- Matt Diaz - 3.7
- Kelly Johnson - 3.64
- Brian Mccann - 3.41
- Jeff Francoeur - 3.29
- Chipper Jones - 3.22
- Yunel Escobar - 2.99 (LAST IN MLB)
That's right, Yunie is seeing less pitches then anyone else in baseball right now. A couple of notes... I think Matty D's is that relatively high only because he tries to swing at balls, and misses. And since Chipper still has .438 OBP, I'm giving him a pass here.
On the whole, its a pretty baseball savvy group of readers on this site, so I don't really need to harp on the importance of plate discipline. Anyone who suffered through a 2008 Frenchy at bat gets the gravity of this. Right now, when watching our offense I never have the feeling that the pitcher has any fear of our lineup (outside of Chipper). He can make his pitches, throw a little junk, and count on us to make a mistake. When a pitcher is confident, and keeping his pitch count down, he cruises through a line up, like we have seen.
For years, the Red Sox and several other successful organizations have been, on an institutional level, beating plate discipline into their players from Rookie ball on. Every day the emphasis is on seeing lots of pitches, making the pitcher work, and taking walks when you can get them. When a lineup is full of guys who will grind out serious at bats, it makes a pitchers job more difficult, and just as importantly more stressfull. It disturbs me that we have a lineup performing the way we do in this regard.
We don't have the menacing power bat in the middle of the lineup that we would like, we all knew that going in. So to score runs, and to wear down and intimidate opposing pitchers, we need to be grinding out serious at bats and getting on base. We also need some more aggressive baserunning, but thats another post entirely.
My personal, relatively uninformed suggestions:
- Jordan Schafer goes to leadoff immediately. He takes pitches, he draws walks, and he is a headache for the pitcher when he is on first.
- "I have never felt nervous on a baseball field" - Jordan Schafer
- I've got love for Scooter, but he of the .295 OBP so far this year does NOT need to see the top half of the order anytime soon. He needs to move down to 7 or 8 till he gets things figured out.
- Escobar needs to go down to the bottom area of ther order too, at the very least. I love his energy, and I love his play in the field, but I'd take Infante's bat in a heartbeat.
This post has a decidedly negative tone, but I could write an equally glowing one about our starting pitching. Also, our bullpen seems like it is pulling itself together (double props for Mike the Manimal Gonzalez last night). I do think this team has a shot, even with our current personell, but our offense has got to figure something out.
Thoughts?
This FanPost does not express the views or opinions of Talking Chop.
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Well written
All of us can no doubt echo your sentiment that the lack of plate discipline is watching murder right now, but I commend you on your excellent facts and numbers here.
I finished reading the Joe Torre/Tom Verducci book The Yankee Years, and the one thing that stands out to me is how often they attribute their success all through 1996-2000 was what they kept referring to as “Typical Yankee at-bats,” where basically the batter grinds out anywhere from 6-10 pitches, and it ends in a walks kill. Trust in the batters behind that they’ll move you over and drive you in.
I’m enjoying the length of Braves games this year, but not the results. I wouldn’t mind if the Braves lost their games as long as they made the other team feel like they had to earn it, instead of grounding out within three pitches all the damned time.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
Trust in the batters behind that they’ll move you over and drive you in.
The anti-walk, pro-batting average crowd doesn’t understand this concept. When people here were arguing against Dunn, all they could talk about is how he walks when he should be getting hits/HRs. Seeing a lot of pitches is always a good thing. You will have one or more of the following positive outcomes:
1. Walk
2. Get a good pitch to hit
3. Tire the pitcher
Isn’t this what hitting is all about?
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
by buzzdeadwax on Apr 29, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
To be fair
I always argued against Dunn in the cleanup spot. He is the guy that others are “trusting to move you over and drive them in”. I have said many times that I love some Dunn in the 2 or 3 spot…just not in the 4.
The best argument that I can produce to support this is a game earlier in the season when Washington was down 2 or 3 runs in the 9th inning and Dunn was at the plate. He induced a bases-loaded walk (which is fantastic), but he is there guy who is supposed to get that hit. They lost the game by 1 run, if I remember correctly.
Anyway, I agree with this fanpost 100%. Escobar is pissing me off everytime he bats. And Chipper (other than his 4-walk night last night) is following closely behind. It is a sad day when FYF is seeing more pitches than his hitting mentor.
Penis
by justincredubil02 on Apr 29, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
"he is there guy"
Their…sorry.
Penis
by justincredubil02 on Apr 29, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
There was also an instance earlier in the season where Dunn walked to load the bases, and then Kearns hit a GS to follow. It works both way. Also, Dunn is hitting .328 this season so I’m right and you’re wrong.
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 29, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
yes
Dunn is having an exceptionally great year. I have him on 2 fantasy teams and find myself wishing he was on my real team…
(YOU WILL NEVER TELL ANYONE I JUST SAID THAT!)
Penis
by justincredubil02 on Apr 29, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha, I’m aware…you have him and Utley going against me this week. Not fun.
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 29, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
After last week though
I don’t think I deserve to be a participant in a fantasy league…I got reamed.
Penis
by justincredubil02 on Apr 29, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
and yes,
that is “reamed” not “creamed”
Penis
by justincredubil02 on Apr 29, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
On your Dunn argument. If he’s not thrown a strike then why should he swing the bat? It’s not like he’s going up to the plate and looking to walk with the bases loaded, but his disciplined approach at the plate is successful in he is not swinging at pitches out of the zone that may have caused a popuot, weak ground out (DP) or other non successful plate appearance.
until
he can learn to distinguish between too and to
example here:
We put the first pitch in play far to often.
he’s nothing but the sky-is-falling crowd that needs to realize that we were, at best, a .500 club this year.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on May 10, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Not only is the plate discipline horrid, but it seems that we have forgotten simple baserunning as well. And these two problems fall squarely on the coaches.
"Ohhhh Shit."-Bobby Cox, 3/28/09
Rec'd
This is the type of negative post I can deal with. Thought out, well researched, correct spelling, proper punctuation…make a note people.
The lack of plate discipline as a whole on this team has really pissed me off the last couple of seasons, and this year is no different. Whether or not it’s actually TP’s fault is hard to gauge, but something needs to be done at the organizational level because it’s bordering on absurdity. A couple of things if you don’t mind:
- I’m all for Schafer hitting leadoff eventually, whether or not it’s sooner rather than later I don’t really have a formed opinion, but people need to understand that it certainly isn’t a lock that he’ll continue to take walks at the pace he is when he is not hitting in front of the pitcher. He’s still striking out way to much and he’s sporting a .400 BABIP.
- On the flip side, the people calling for KJ’s head also need to calm down a tad. He’s taking walks at a clip in between his 2007 and 2008 seasons, which is great, and has actually cut down on his strikeout rate in the process. He somehow has a putrid .204 BABIP, so I think he needs to remain in the lineup…move him to the bottom if you have to, but benching him or starting the ole’ platoon with Prado up should not be the answer.
- Escobar’s walk rate has been cut in half from last season, yes, but he’s still sporting an OPS bordering on .800 with a respectable BABIP…so I don’t want to condemn him just yet. I wonder how he would take a move down to the #8 spot…
All of these conclusions are based in small sample sizes, of course, but I’m just leery to make major adjustments to the lineup so early in the season. I can certainly understand other people’s willingness to do so, however.
“The lack of plate discipline as a whole on this team has really pissed me off the last couple of seasons, and this year is no different. Whether or not it’s actually TP’s fault is hard to gauge, but something needs to be done at the organizational level because it’s bordering on absurdity.”
That is pretty much my main concern right there… that this lack of discipline is a reflection of an organizational problem. Loathe am I, a mere mortal, to question Bobby and John. But the question does have to be raised… how much of a priority is this for our coaching staffs both on the farm and at the big league level?
by Sid Bream's Moustache on Apr 29, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
You always here from coaches/FO staff that you “don’t want to take away the player’s aggressiveness”, but at some point you have to teach players to be aggressive on pitches in the strike-zone, not in the time-zone (hahaha! See what I did there!?!?). For reals though—I totally agree with you and SB. There needs to be balance.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
Aggression isn’t a skill, it’s an instinct. Patience is a skill.
You can always force yourself to go from patient to aggressive, but unless you have it, you can’t go from aggressive to patient. Unfortunately, it looks as if aggression is being reinforced in the organization, and it’s hurting in the long run.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
Now, the question is…when did this start to take place? Was this the case during the 90s? I was far too young and infatuated with the HR to notice those sort of intricacies so maybe some of our, ahem, more dated posters could help me out. What about our teams of the early 00s? Furcal, Andruw, LaRoche, Giles, etc? Without putting in the necessary 20 secs I want to say that it wasn’t the case.
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 29, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Excellent post! Articulate and well-said. I agree that I think this philosophy at the plate needs to change at the organizational level. I don’t think it’s as much of a problem in the minors as it is in the majors. However, they do not seem to instill any sort of plate discipline in the minor league level at the same level that an orgainzation like Boston does.
At the major league level, our organization is a disaster with Terry Pendelton. He’s a joke of a hitting coach and unfortunately Bobby Cox is to senile to even recognize this.
by BravesFan on Apr 29, 2009 2:12 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Aggravating yet Exciting
In no way to counter the facts and statistics put forward, I will make a couple points of enjoyment I have taken as a result of, or more likely, in spite of, this year’s lack of plate discipline.
First and foremost we’re 3-4 in one run games—not an ideal record, but at least it is a far cry from last season.
Secondly, on more personal level, we’re playing NL ball, not the abomination that is American League Touch-All-the-Bases-ball. Perhaps I enjoy the Management too much, the weighing of letting JJ go another inning verses the necessity of getting a bat at the plate for a higher chance of a run across it, but there is a bright side to it all. This isn’t to celebrate our lacking offense, but to enjoy the fun that accompanies it. Push comes to shove, I’d also rather beat ’em by 10.
The team is in a quasi-funk (but still doing good........not great)
Not just one guy. All of our guys are cold right now, when some should be hot, etc. Plus, as someone posted earlier, the Braves really have been robbed of a few runs. Lots of guys have made ALOT of spectacular catches from our guys that would have brought in runs. But if we win tonite, well you know what that means. And about Yunel’s recent……thing, I think he’s been trying to clean it up, and has had a few slip ups is all, really. He’s come through with a couple of shots. I think people are going to start clicking, just in time.
"The future is no place to place your better days." - Dave Matthews ~ RIP Roi
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Apr 29, 2009 6:35 PM EDT reply actions
Excellent post, and not what I would term negative at all...
I know it’s bad when they make me want to curse, which they have doing with their 1,2,3 innings. I love Matt Diaz, but I’m starting to hate him also.
…and definately not hitting with runners in scoring position.
I also meant to bring this up earlier, but it slipped my mind. We’ve actually got the highest OPS in the majors with RISP at .940 which includes a .308 BA, which is 4th in the majors. Yunel is one of the main reasons why, with slash stats of .474/.500/.842 during the early season.
Good call. I didn’t bother researching that part of it, it was just a gut feeling from the last couple games.
by Sid Bream's Moustache on Apr 29, 2009 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I was just as surprised as you when I heard the Cardinals announcers bring it up Monday.
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 29, 2009 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Good post
But on a side note, what is with all of the recommended fanposts lately?? It’s like people just recently discovered how to turn the +1 into an actual rec…
by Doghnut on Apr 29, 2009 7:46 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Better than last year when nobody knew what it was. It’ll all even out in the end, when people really learn to recommend actual quality fanposts and not stupid memes or when the negativity gets so bad around here one ray of hope gets recommended to the moon. But greening stupid funny shit in the comments section? That can still be funny.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
16 recs?! Damn, I really got the ball rolling on this one. One more and it becomes the most rec’d post of ALL TIME.
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 30, 2009 10:06 AM EDT reply actions
I hate you guys
My photoshop post was supposed to live forever at #1!
60% of the time, it works every time
This is why TP has got to go.
He goes and tells all these guys to go be aggressive and he’s essentially ruined a lineup full of above average-OBP hitters.
Tommy Hanson 4 ROY
really good post.
I really don’t have the patience to search stats and write a nice post like this, so kudos. Working about 10 hours a day doesn’t leave me with much time to do anything else.
I really would like to know how they are teaching hitting approaches in the minors. I’d feel more confident about Heyward and Freeman if they were teaching them good approaches and patience at the plate. Could that be a symptom of why Campbell and Cody strike out so much? We seem to have a lot of free swingers in the bigs and in the minors, but are we reading too much into this? Can it really be the coaching? It’s ultimately up to the player to alter his approach, am I right? Maybe they just don’t want to.
Damn, now I’m going to be thinking about this for awhile.
Campbell isn’t really a free-swinger… He struck out 58 times and drew 50 walks last year. If anything, his plate discipline is his biggest asset.
Tommy Hanson 4 ROY
thanks for that. for some reason I thought Campbell struck out a lot. Maybe I meant someone else, but I don’t have the time to figure out who it was at the moment.
you could be thinking of Brandon Hicks.. he tends to swing a lot
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Excellent post.
The base running of late is the only thing that has caused me to scream at the TV more than the lack of discipline at the plate. Those who have suffered through my “patient” posts during the games know this is sort of my pet peeve with this team. Nothing infuriates me more than to see the opposing pitcher throw less than a dozen pitches inning after inning and barely break a sweat. It’s a rare site to see us get into the bullpen of the opponent early.
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