Dissent of the Day in the Bowman/Anderson Row
by gondeee on Apr 21, 2009 11:51 AM EDT
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PrintA reader writes:
Mr. Bowman is giving up fairly prematurely on a player with 14 full seasons in the majors and lifetime statistics that 98% of MLB players would gladly brag about. Since 1995, Garret's first full year in the majors (he had 13 abs in 1994) and as compared to all major league players and their stats (1995-2009) that have played since 1995, this is where Garret ranks:
- In hits, Garret is third with 2373 behind only Derek Jeter and Alex Rodriguez. Chipper is fifth with 2287 behind Manny Ramirez;
- In doubles, Garret is FIRST with 492 doubles. Since 1995, Garret has hit more doubles than any other major league baseball player. Chipper is eighth with 451;
- In RBI's, Garret is eighth with 1292. Chipper is sixth with 1378.
- In Total Bases, Garret is eighth with 3751. Chipper is third with 4037 behind only Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez.
Garret is a notoriously slow starter. Last year he hit .222 in April but ended the year with a .293 batting average, with 163 hits and 84 RBI's. Not bad for an old man of 36 which is the same age as Chipper, but no one considers Chipper old. That's more hits than anyone playing for Atlanta last year and three less RBI's than Brian McCann. Obviously Chipper would have had more hits if he had been able to play a full season. The Atlanta fans don't appreciate what they have in Garret Anderson. Bobby Cox does. Thats why he is the manager.
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That reader is an idiot.
Braves 2009 offense: in play, out(s)
Braves 2009 bullpen: in play, run(s)
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 21, 2009 12:04 PM EDT reply actions
This moronic reader reminded me of a great FJM post: Enjoy
Braves 2009 offense: in play, out(s)
Braves 2009 bullpen: in play, run(s)
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 21, 2009 12:12 PM EDT reply actions
Nice
I still check that site hoping for an update.
by TradeAndruw on Apr 21, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
same
Braves 2009 offense: in play, out(s)
Braves 2009 bullpen: in play, run(s)
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 21, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
You should stop. They really retired. Ken Tremendous is working for the new Office-type show, Parks and Recreation.
That’s a shame, but that show is fucking terrible.
Braves 2009 offense: in play, out(s)
Braves 2009 bullpen: in play, run(s)
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 21, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
The first episode was BAD, but the second came along quite nicely. Give it another shot
SWAGGA LIKE...whoever the fuck is not walking people
President, CEO, and chairman of the Brandon Jones fan club
hmm…
Braves 2009 offense: in play, out(s)
Braves 2009 bullpen: in play, run(s)
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 21, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re not making a sound argument using RBIs, doubles, and hits. Not only that, but who the hell cares what he’s done over the past 14 years if he looks old and done this year? The slow starter is a decent argument, but that’s the only nugget in this otherwise useless bunch of drivel.
“Obviously Chipper would have had more hits if he had been able to play a full season.”
Obviously.
Reverse That
Chipper signs with the Angels at the old age of 36.
He blows ass and gets hurt on a daily basis during ST and first few weeks of RS.
His platoon position player is playing well.
Add all of your pointless stats from above.
Chipper 5th in hits
Chipper 8th in doubles
Chipper 6th in RBI’s
Chipper 3rd in Total bases.
What do you have?????
The angel’s fan base calling for chipper to get cut. Nobody from the Angels gives crap about chippers HOF career with the braves.
The brave’s fan based doesn’t care about GA’s HOF career.
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR “ME” LATELY.
Almost credible
Until he decided to go beyond his sharing of subjective stats and opinions, to slamming all Atlanta fans by insinuating Bobby Cox is the type of manager that never makes any mistakes, like, say, leaving Derek Lowe in a game too long.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
He was lucky to hold them to 3 runs. You have to think the offense could score 1 run against the Nats bullpen, everyone else has this year.
by TradeAndruw on Apr 21, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to continue the GA smearing
But I have no confidence that GA would have been able to catch the Jesus Flores almost grand slam that Diaz tracked down on the warning track. Probably would have bounced off the wall and cleared all the bases for a double.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
I see where you're coming from
Bobby can make some bad decisions, but there’s a segment of the Braves blogosphere that is ready to call for his retirement every time he makes a decision they wouldn’t make.
In this case, it’s not cutting a player after ten games. I’m ok with saying Bobby knows better than those people.
Cutting him might be a little rash, but he needs to be placed on the DL. You have to agree with that much.
Braves 2009 offense: in play, out(s)
Braves 2009 bullpen: in play, run(s)
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 21, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Not quite
I understand your point about it being a little early to cut Anderson, but most of the bloggers who want Bobby out have been after that for years. To be honest, they have a point. I love Bobby Cox, but Bobby of 2009 isn’t the Bobby of 1995. Just look at what he did to poor Blaine Boyer, and the consequences of that. That, not to mention the fact that Anderson has indeed sucked.
by Andy Braves Fan on Apr 21, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
What Bobby did to Boyer is nothing like what Bobby did to Avery. The whole ‘mismanagement’ of the bullpen thing, Jesus. Yeah, Boyer got overused last year. So did Ohman. But four of our five starters got hurt and the replacements were mostly shit. What was he supposed to do?
Oh, I know
but that is just one example of Bobby’s declining ability to manage. I don’t agree that Bobby is a terrible manager (now) as some would argue, but I would argue that he is well past his prime and that it is time to move on.
by Andy Braves Fan on Apr 21, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the point is
That Anderson has been a productive player for 14 years. He’s looked pretty bad this year, but he’s only had 26 at-bats, he missed most of spring training, and he’s probably got some lingering issues with that calf that caused him to look a little sluggish in the field and running out ground balls.
To address the writer’s stats, well, they are important. I know it’s important to minimize the number of outs you make. OBP is more important than batting average, sure. But batting average is still important, doubles are still important, etc. I get so tired of reading this kind of stuff. We all get that walks are important, but a player can be useful with an OBP around .340. Garret Anderson has been for a while.
Either way, he should be better than Gregor Blanco and better than what Brandon Jones has shown so far.
…he’s probably got some lingering issues with that calf that caused him to look a little sluggish in the field and running out ground balls.
If that’s the case he needs to sack up and tell the organization to put him on the DL until he feels healthy. He’s not helping any out there as is.
And no, counting stats like hits and doubles are not important. He has played a long career, so of course he has alot of them but that doesn’t mean that he deserves to get the benefit of the doubt because of it. Jeff Kent has alot of doubles, maybe we should sign him to start over KJ.
As stated by someone above, the only useful nugget was that GA has a poor April average for his career.
Braves 2009 offense: in play, out(s)
Braves 2009 bullpen: in play, run(s)
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 21, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s played a long career in which he got a lot of hits and doubles. There’s some value in a guy who can hit .290, whether he walks enough or not, especially when the guy is hitting some doubles.
Look, he’s obviously not a perfect player, but he was better than taking a chance Brandon Jones can hit major league pitching. Which he absolutely has not in his career. Or making Diaz the everyday left-fielder again, because he totally blew in that role last year.
The problem is that that all happened in the past. Bobby has a tendency to stick with people for too long when it’s pretty obvious they don’t have it anymore. It’s probably why the players love him so much, but it’s frustrating as hell as a fan. Players decline, players fall off a cliff…just because Anderson used to be good doesn’t mean he should get the benefit of the doubt.
I hated the signing, as I’m sure everyone on here knows. But after I cooled off I told myself that I’d be fine with it as long as he’s hitting 5th or lower. He has no business hitting 3rd with that OBP, and no business hitting 4th with the SLG. Even in games where McCann and Chipper aren’t playing I do not want him there.
I was also assured by numerous people that his defense was average at worst, and perhaps it’s mainly due to the calf but he’s looked just about as Dunn normally does out there. It doesn’t hurt at this point to DL the son of a bitch and bring up Jones to see what he can do.
Braves 2009 offense: in play, out(s)
Braves 2009 bullpen: in play, run(s)
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 21, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Garret can't blame dropping balls that hit your glove on his calf.
And even if he could that would just prove that he had no business trying to play through it.
Tommy Hanson 4 ROY
I think that Anderson used to be good is the only reason anyone would give him the benefit of the doubt. At least for 30-35 games.
As far as the dropped balls are concerned, I don’t know. I have no explanation for them.
Really he's never been anything special.
A career 105 OPS+ is only good acceptable if you’re a shortstop, catcher, or second baseman.
If you’re playing LF, something over 120 is about par for the course. And he’s only broken 120 three times in 15 seasons.
Tommy Hanson 4 ROY
Sure they’re important, but its cherry picking. Why not use percentages to describe the player? OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+, etc etc all include the counting stats within them…sure its nice to rattle off the hard numbers of what he’s achieved but when you take into account PAs you see an above average player in the past… now he’s past his prime, is hurt, looks disinterested, and is taking up money that could’ve been used to shore up the pen…or gotten a better option than himself. There’s not a lot of value in that.
by soup du jour on Apr 21, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Speaking of cherry picking
I like the lack of defense. His range has been dropping the last few years, and in terms of FIP, he’s barely being league-average. It’s hardly showing this year for us, though.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
The fact that the hits and BA are artificially inflated by a complete disregard for talking walks only add to the idiocy.
How about we compare something that matters like say, Times on Base from 1995-2009?
1. Manny Ramirez- 3,596
2. Chipper Jones – 3,546
3. Alex Rodriguez- 3,511
4. Derek Jeter- 3,504
5. Barry Bonds- 3,473
6. Jim Thome- 3,405
7. Carlos Delgado- 3,238
8. Gary Sheffield- 3,211
9. Jason Giambi- 3,191
10. Luis Gonzalez- 3,185
11. Bobby Abreu- 3,157
12. Craig Biggio- 3,136
13. Johnny Damon- 3,121
14. Brian Giles- 3,073
15. Todd Helton- 3,059
16. Jeff Kent- 2,954
17. Ray Durham- 2,946
18. Frank Thomas- 2,944
19. Vlad Guerrero- 2,896
20. Jeff Bagwell- 2,884
21. Omar Vizquel- 2,862
22. Jason Kendall- 2,853
23. Bernie Williams- 2,825
24. Shawn Green- 2,823
25. Jim Edmonds- 2,776
26. Garret Anderson- 2,772
Ouch.
Tommy Hanson 4 ROY
So you're saying we have the 26th best player of the last 14 years? We've struck gold!
All kidding aside, his longevity obviously helps him in counting stats. But he posted an OPS+ over 100 not too long ago, and would have been better than anybody we fielded last year.
Garret just doesn’t bring anything to the table that I don’t think we already have with Brandon Jones.
Another interesting nugget, that is sort of my point against hits being used as a HOF barometer…
Tim Raines has more Times on Bases than Tony Gwynn, as well as nearly 500 more stolen bases, and 50 more HRs.
Tommy Hanson 4 ROY
My other issue with Garret, is how many runs is he giving back because he's a useless defender
For a team that used defense as their excuse not to go after Dunn to somehow wind up with one of the very few players that could actually be a worse defender is mind-boggling.
Tommy Hanson 4 ROY
Chipper is only 50 behind Manny?
Despite missing several thousand games to injury?
by !Vive la Francoeur! on Apr 21, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Slow Starters
Garret Anderson, Mark Teixeira, Adam LaRoche, Andy Pettitte, the Philadelphia Phillies, etc, etc.
Now I’m curious here. Do these players really have to be in games during their yearly slow months? Is playing like shit in April a mandatory requisite for a rise in performance as the summer progresses? What would happen if a team took a “slow starter,” and didn’t start really playing him until like June? Do they start slow then, or do they come in, playing like their June form? Why do they start slow? Do they not like the cold? The rain? Why is it that the term “slow starter” exist, insinuating that a player is playing well below marginal to where they have to be designated as such? The majority of players start the seasons playing at least slightly above-average, if not hot, before they begin to come back to earth.
Too bad we can’t stick GA in AAA until he actually “starts,” and then bring him back up if he’s an improvement over Matt Diaz.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
I still fail to understand why we didn't go after Jim Edmonds.
Hell, we could improve our team a good deal today by cutting Garret, and signing Edmonds.
Edmonds rakes righties, Diaz rakes lefties. Use a strict platoon of the two in LF, and it’s like having > .850 OPS left fielder. Not to mention Edmonds can still play CF, and would be about as good as it gets in left.
And that’s before we even get to the intangibles where Edmonds is a guy that actually hustles, as opposed to Garret the Glider; or the fact that Edmonds has been arguably one of the elite CF over the last 15 years, and we have a rookie CF how could learn some things from him.
Tommy Hanson 4 ROY
I mentioned this in December and was laughed at.
People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.
Pretty much.
People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.
I was all about Edmonds. I think at the beginning of the offseason my list for LF was as follows, in order (strictly FA, no trades):
Dunn
Burrell
Abreu
Griffey / Diaz
Edmonds / Diaz
B. Jones / Diaz
Wickman
Anderson / Diaz
Griffey and Edmonds may have been flip flopped, can’t remember after all the shit that went down. Reguardless Edmonds rakes lefties and I don’t think it’s a stretch to say he’s a better defender than GA.
Braves 2009 offense: in play, out(s)
Braves 2009 bullpen: in play, run(s)
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 21, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Edmonds rakes lefties righties.
Braves 2009 offense: in play, out(s)
Braves 2009 bullpen: in play, run(s)
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 21, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
This is something I saw Mac @ BravesJournal write
Here’s two batting lines from last year:
A. .293/.325/.438
B. .293/.338/.416
Pretty much exactly the same. Line A is Garret Anderson from last year. Line B is Omar Infante. Garret Anderson is making more money this year, and is 10 years older. If GA doesn’t regress because of age, we can hope that he has the offensive output of Omar Infante. That is his ceiling. I would say that GA is better at LF defense, but I’m not going to be making any arguments supporting GA’s defense after what I’ve seen so far this year.
http://www.whensidslid.com
The first paragraph pretty closely resembles that time a dude bitched at gondeee for swearing or something, and called him MR GANDY the whole time. That was good times.
SWAGGA LIKE...whoever the fuck is not walking people
President, CEO, and chairman of the Brandon Jones fan club
I liked the guy who would find a typo and then go off on Gondeee about how a chimp could write better.
And gondeee took care of both posters by paying Patrick Bateman Smoltz’s Beard Mr. Glass to ban murder “take care” of them.
People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.
son.of.sourman
I miss his awfulness.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
I just keep telling myself
that none of this (GA being ABSOLUTLY TERRIBLE, epic bullpen collapses, the whole lack of a fifth starter so far this season, etc) will matter when we start winning again. But losing to the Nationals? Versus their rookie #5? WTF, Braves? And I don’t want to hear about Zimmerman’s “ace potential”, ’cause we had our actual ace in there against him.
I won’t say that being a Braves fan is getting harder, but it sure is making me wake up with a hangover a lot more often.
Do you all realize how immature you sound?
I’m disappointed to realize that so many of my fellow Braves fans sound just like the Mets fans I heard on the radio while working in the NYC area the last few years.
I had assumed that the utter lack of sympathy or patience expressed by them was specific to obnoxious New York sports fans. Evidently such immaturity is more pervasive than I realized.
Given the strident, petulant, impatient tone of most of the comments posted here I’m beginning to think the average age of commentators is less than 13.
For the callow among you who object to the relevance of Anderson’s lifetime stats, “The past is prologue to the future.”
Thanks for the info.
by John Drake number 6 on Apr 21, 2009 6:12 PM EDT reply actions
Did you plan on actually adding to the conversation? Elaborating on the topic at hand? Or were you just going to hurl insults and act like you’re better than everyone?
Braves 2009 offense: in play, out(s)
Braves 2009 bullpen: in play, run(s)
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 21, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Like we say in Texas
I can read it to you, but I can’t understand it for you.
by John Drake number 6 on Apr 21, 2009 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I figured you didn’t have a clue
Braves 2009 offense: in play, out(s)
Braves 2009 bullpen: in play, run(s)
by Smoltz's Beard on Apr 21, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions
While you’re right to say that we haven’t given Anderson much of a chance, he hasn’t done anything to ingratiate himself to the Braves, now has he? You preach patience with Anderson, but we preach the fact that Anderson was superfluous to what we already have.
You mention the lack of sympathy…why should we be sympathetic? To us, he’s a mercenary. Speaking for myself, his past means little to me as a fan. Which really isn’t a BAD thing per se, but he’s not going to get a longer rope if he were to, say, drop a few fly balls, look lost at the plate, or miss some games due to injury. So, yes, I have little patience for a player who I think was an unnecessary addition when other parts of our team (read: Ohman) could’ve been shored up.
Welcome to TC, by the way.
by soup du jour on Apr 21, 2009 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
"The past is prologue to the future."
Yeah, and Anderson’s recent past (aka the last 4 years) have shown him to be a below average hitter who has trouble getting on base and limited power.
You can write your blanket statements as articulately as you want, it doesn’t change the fact that many people here never wanted Garret Anderson in the first place, in favor of the economically responsible internal options. The last three weeks have been justification for those initial opinions.
But then again, you signed up an just to chide all of us likely thirteen year olds, so I wouldn’t have expected you to know this, either.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
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