Hoping the Braves Say No to Mike Cameron
by gondeee on Dec 8, 2009 12:42 PM EST
in Free Agents
172 comments
There has been a lot of talk on this site in the comments and on other sites supporting the idea of the Braves signing outfielder Mike Cameron. I'd like to go on record as saying I DO NOT support any move in this direction, and I would be very critical of Atlanta if they made this move.
I don't get why people are so enamored with Cameron. I'll admit his defense is above average at times, but his bat is just not that exciting, nor does his bat accomplish any of the goals that this team needs to accomplish this off-season -- (1) get a power bat, (2) get a consistent hitter.
Cameron's speed has declined to the point where he's not a top of the lineup hitter. He also strikes out way too much to exist at the top of the lineup. He doesn't have enough power to be a middle of the lineup hitter, so that leaves him as a bottom of the lineup hitter, with aging speed, aging defense, and an aging and slowing bat. Did I mention he's only a year younger than Chipper? Odds are we'd be way overpaying for a 7th or 8th place hitter, or we'd be overplaying a guy in the top-to-middle of the lineup who should be at the bottom.
This obsession some folks have with Cameron has got to stop. Just because he's from Georgia, and says he wants to play near his home, doesn't mean that the Braves should sign him for any amount of money. He's just not the guy we need clogging up our outfield physically or fiscally. We already have a younger, better version of Mike Cameron, and his name is Nate McLouth.
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i pretty much agree
well said
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
Amen, brother.
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 8, 2009 12:50 PM EST reply actions
Cameron had 24 HR’s last year that would have led the Braves. I would be completely fine with giving Cameron a 1 year deal. I want us to explore trade’s first but he isn’t that bad of option.
Agreed. If Cameron doesn’t have enough power, then who that the Braves could realistically afford does? Cameron is a right handed, power bat who plays good defense and would likely sign a one year deal. That’s pretty much exactly what the Braves are looking for. He had a .342 OBP last year with 75 walks, so what does it matter how often he strikes out? He’d be fine hitting 5th or 6th for the Braves next year.
This.
Again. No he doesn’t have the power to be cleanup hitter, but as a 5-6 guy he’s fine, and like you say, his 24 Hrs would have led the team. Is he the singular answer? No. Signing Cameron is not the end-all-be-all of our offensive work. But can he be an excellent complementary piece that also upgrades the defense while coming cheap enough to leave room for us to try to trade for a big-name, well-paid 1B? Hells yeah.
Freaking this
Cameron would be perfect I think. Let’s just say we bring LaRoche back and then add Cameron and you are looking at a lineup with some pop. Think about it – we wouldn’t have some guy to hit 35-40 homers, but we would have a bunch of guys that could hit 20-25. The lineup and HR’s would look like this after a full season (without even Heyward)
McLouth: 20-25
Prado: 10 – 15
Chipper: 20 – 25
LaRoche: 25 – 30
McCann: 20 – 25
Cameron: 25
Escobar: 15
Diaz: 20
Who wouldn’t take that lineup???
"Sometimes I wonder what'd it be like to be outside and not hear the birds chirping...I think it'd be kind of nice."
by alligatorimpersonator on Dec 8, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
You forgot KJ…
:)
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
haha
Maybe it’d be best if we ever talk about 2nd base to just package them together like so: KJ/Prado
Especially since KJ could still win the job because since KJ/Prado will be at the top of the lineup and KJ > Prado when it comes to getting on base
"Sometimes I wonder what'd it be like to be outside and not hear the birds chirping...I think it'd be kind of nice."
by alligatorimpersonator on Dec 8, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
Justin,
You’re really good at spreading the KJ love. Which makes my job a lot easier. Kudos.
re:alligatorimpersonator (awesome handle, by the way):
McLouth: 20-25
Prado: 10 – 15
Chipper: 20 – 25
LaRoche: 25 – 30
McCann: 20 – 25
Cameron: 25
Escobar: 15
Diaz: 20
I think all of these are over-estimates except McCann and Chipper. I’d go:
Mclouth – 20
Prado – 9
Chipper 20-25
LaRoche – 25
McCann 20-30 (I think he can hit 30 HR’s. DON’T STOP, BELIVIN’!)
Cameron – 20
Escobar – 12 (I love the kid, my favorite player on the team. His swing ain’t geared towards HR. I see him as one of those .320/.390/.450 guy. Not that he ain’t one of the most important things in the organization)
Diaz is the biggest stretch. He’s a straight slap hitter. 12-14 is probably his ceiling.
Your overall point is valid, though.
Everyone’s focusing on offense these days. A few things to keep in mind.
The Braves were 6th in the NL in runs scored last year. They could stand to improve, of course, but baseball is half pitching (covered) and defense and half hitting (mostly covered, need to add a piece) and baserunning.
The Braves were 21st in defensive efficiency. They have got to improve that defense. Prado needs to lose weight, gain range, Chipper needs to re-learn how to play defense, 1B is going to be a massive downgrade from Kotchman (and don’t give me that "LaRoche is just as good as Kotchman B.S. That’s company line and insulting every fan’s intelligence). Yunel Escobar needs to keep his head in the game. Maybe we should prescribe him with ADHD meds.
They were also 29th in EqBRR (the comprehensive base-running metric at BPro). There’s only so much impact base running can have, but god damn, the Braves can do better than 20 fucking 9th. I mostly blame Brian Snitker for this, because he’s horrible, and I can’t count the number of times the Braves were unable to score from 1st on a 2-out double.
http://www.capitolavenueclub.com/
I agree, our defense needs some serious improvement. Cameron in center gives us great D in center, putting McLouth in left where he would be way above average, and Diaz in right where he would be ok.
And haha, I know what you mean, it seems like Snitker’s arm barely works. It’s like he has a torn rotator cuff or something. If he were to actually windmill someone around third Jeff Porter would have to run onto the field and tend to Snitker’s arm
"Sometimes I wonder what'd it be like to be outside and not hear the birds chirping...I think it'd be kind of nice."
by alligatorimpersonator on Dec 8, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
We should have dropped to 30th in base-running...
…based on the Diaz fiasco at third base alone. Another stinker from Snitker.
prado hit more than 9 in a limited role this year, whats your reasoning for thinking he’ll only hit 9?
diaz hit 13 in a platoon role so why couldn’t he hit more than 12-14 if he got an everyday role
escobar is still young and developing, he hit 14 this year, if anything his power hasn’t fully developed…it wouldn’t surprise me at all if esco hit 25 hr’s in the next couple years
"Im a fullonrapist, I do men, women, autistic kids, children, the elderly." -Charlie Kelly
Finally
I have been thinking the same thing ever since I saw people posting that they wanted him. Stay clear ATL.
Nate McLouth’s D right now in his prime can’t touch that of Cameron who is, as you say, on the decline.
The only thing that Nate has on Mike is base-stealing ability.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 12:53 PM EST reply actions
And let’s be honest here, an aging player is someone like Garret Anderson. Mike Cameron is no FUGA.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 12:53 PM EST reply actions
I never understood the infatuation either
Makes no sense unless he were to take a nice fat hometown discount of a salary, which he won’t. The guy will ultimately go where the money is, source…a conversation (more of a heckling) I had with him a few years back…..
Me: Hey Mike, you suck and you’re a free agent in my fantasy baseball league.
MC: That’s yo fantasy………whatchu know about that 7 (referencing his 7 million salary)
Me: You make 7? I make 7 in an hour(referencing my minimum wage college job at the time), Braves are going to bend you over tonight
MC: That’s yo fantasy
Case closed.
That’s yo fantasy.
- l’dmao
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 8, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I don't see how that exchange...
…shows Cameron is a bad light at all. If you are going to have to deal with hecklers, you might as well have a bit of fun with it.
It doesn't
I really liked him after that conversation. I just used the “salary” thing sarcastically to share that short story.
Another good Cam story. Saw him in ST warming up DeFelice, who was starting that day. Cam stood in during warm ups, so DeFelice could get a sense of the zone. DeFelice threw a CB behind Cam, dude starts charging the bullpen mound, although he stopped half way and busted up.
Gotta love a guy like that.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
That’s pretty unbecoming of you.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
Gotta be careful with Cameron, he still kicks it to the right. He just wants to play on a team with Red in their team colors.
huh?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
If Cameron is our top outfield choice, we already have equivalent cheaper internal
options and I think Wren knows this. I predict Wren, while not a big blockbuster deal, will find the exact bat this team needs.
HansonManCrush
by HansonManCrush on Dec 8, 2009 12:59 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Who exactly is those internal options. Besides McLouth and Heyward we have no power hitters in our outfield.
Diaz, while not as good defensively, hits for better average obp and has better speed
HansonManCrush
by HansonManCrush on Dec 8, 2009 1:07 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
So that means we have Diaz and Nate…no Church now, so who is the 3rd OF?
Heyward probably won’t make the team out of ST and Schafer needs a few ABs before he will be ready.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
Diaz also has bad L/R splits.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
his .749 OPS against righties wasn’t “bad.” It’s better than what Yunel did against lefties-though don’t ask me to explain why that is. It’s much better than what McLouth does against lefties, and there’s no talks about platooning him (though perhaps a Diaz/McLouth platoon would make sense).
Mike Cameron hits righties no better than Diaz anyway. We can’t just platoon everyone on the roster who isn’t Chipper Jones.
While Diaz's 2009 numbers against righties weren't bad...
…his 2008 OPS of .356 was more than bad and his career .722 is pretty pedestrian. That being said, it is not particularly necessary to platoon him, we have plenty of guys who can hit righties. We might want to move him down in the order or something, however.
But does not have to power. Somewhere in these should-we-or-shouldnt-we MC talks, someone always brings up Diaz’s better avg/speed while forgetting that no one in the organization, save maybe Heyward IF he lights up from day one, has the power we’re seeking. Matt does have better contact/speed, but it doesn’t solve our power deficit to count on him alone and not consider adding someone with power to the OF mix. I love Matty and he’s a useful player, but insinuating he is the solution that allows us to ignore Cameron displays an ignorance of the very reason anyone is considering Cameron in the first place.
/rant
No one’s commented on the clearly biased picture I put up of Cameron. My propaganda is all encompassing.
Haha
I loved it! A true metaphor speaking to what we’d really be getting with Cameron!
HansonManCrush
by HansonManCrush on Dec 8, 2009 1:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
A guy who busts his ass playing defense?
I don’t think it is an unflattering picture at all. Nor is the second.
what the picture does show is that MC actually caught that ball…he is a defensive wizard (literally)
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
I personally disagree. This is because we will probably be lucky to only get one impact player. For example, we get an impact 1B, then I would sign Cameron to a one-year deal. Then we would have McLouth/Cameron/Diaz until Heyward is ready.
If we don’t get a person to play and instead get another OF, then Cameron wouldn’t be needed.
-Yellow Jackets, Braves, Falcons, Hawks, and Thrashers fan!
Gondee....I like you...but you are just wrong on this
Cameron most definitely would be a power bat in the outfield. I understand that you don’t like the guy at all but come on……….it’s just dishonest to say he wouldn’t give us a tremendous upgrade in the power department. Your posts are normally fair and clear-headed but this one is not! I don’t think we should sign the guy for big money but he is probably all the power the Braves can currently afford. If we aren’t able to trade for a big bat, then Cameron would be a perfectly acceptable alternative. He would improve our outfield defense by a good sized margin (McLouth would be really good in LF as opposed to slightly below average in CF). This would also allow us to feel better about RF with Diaz there either full-time or part-time splitting the position with one of our young outfielders. I am not totally enamored with the guy either, especially considering his low average, but we have payroll restrictions and he is probably one of our best options.
I'm not totally against Cameron
But I’m not enamored with him either. I think this post was made to address the every-other-post you see lately proclaiming a tingling desire for us to sign him.
Let’s wait till we get Soriano and hopefully Lowe’s salary off the books before overypaying for Cameron. And yes, free agency = overpaying.
Who knows what the price will be.
Sometimes free agency is not overpaying—-ask the Angels about Abreau last year. I agree, we shouldn’t over pay and we do need to get rid of Lowe’s and Soriano’s salary first because first base is our first priority. One plus is the apparently trade that just went down sending Granderson to the Yankees—-that keeps the Yankees out of the Cameron bidding, and if they wanted him, we wouldn’t want to pay what it would take to get him.
Abreu signing was a steal for Anaheim, I didn’t understand the lack of interest in him. He came off a solid year in NY. Cameron is drawing a fair amount of interest and when it becomes a bidding war, then it becomes overpaying. I should have specified. There are plenty of examples of players signed on the cheap and then producing. But more often than not, in a bidding war the player doesn’t end up outperforming their contract. For the right price Cameron is definitely an attractive option.
Hoping the Cameron Haters See the Light.
I don’t get where gondee is coming from. It appears as if all he sees is age and completely fails to see performance. Cameron is an established player and is as WYSIWYG as they come. If we are looking for a RH, power bat, who is a consistent hitter as gondee suggests, Cameron rates pretty well on those metrics. He is right-handed. He does have power, maybe not as much as would be ideal, but he does have power. And he is as consistent as you are going to find. The past four years he has hit between 20-25 HR with an OPS between .759 and .838. And two of those years he did it in San Diego.
gondee sees declining speed, declining defense, and declining bat speed based purely on age. I assume that is why he sees it, because there isn’t any indication of this in his performance. The stolen based have come down. That’s it. Everything else, power, OBP, BBs, K’s, have all stayed about the same. His defensive metric numbers have stayed about the same. I guess I don’t have gondee’s insider scouting report here, but he does not appear to have declined significantly yet.
Yes, he is not young. Yes, that gives a risk of declining performance. However, it is not like anyone is suggesting signing him to a multi-year deal (although I would be okay with 2, fwiw).
gondee suggests that Cameron is not a top of the order hitter. I agree. His OBP is solid, but not good enough, and he doesn’t steal that much anymore. (Not that the Braves would have anyone run anyway.) gondee suggests that Cameron does not have enough power to be a middle of the order hitter. Here I disagree. Cameron had more HR than anyone on the Braves roster last year. If he doesn’t have enough power to be a middle of the order hitter, the Braves are in trouble and need to add about four hitters this offseason to replace the entire middle of our order. (and someone called me a pessimist in a thread the other day!) Yes, I would like a guy with more power to be clean-up, but there is no reason Cameron wouldn’t be fine hitting fifth or sixth.
Then there is defense. In one of the comments, someone extolled the value of Diaz over Cameron while just noting in passing that Cameron was better defensively. That is a massive understatement. Looking at the Braves OF options right now, McLouth is a average to slightly below average defensive CF and probably a slightly above average left fielder. Diaz is below average in either RF or LF and isn’t going to play center. Cameron is an above average CF, who would be a way above average LF. Signing Cameron would let us move McLouth to left, giving us a significant upgrade on the outfield defense. When Heyward takes over in RF, that would be a very impressive defensive outfield if the reports on Heyward’s defense are true (great range, incredible arm).
So, gondee, if you like Cameron so little, who do you suggest is better?
by cavebird on Dec 8, 2009 1:56 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Thanks for typing this out and saving me the time. Cameron would be a very solid piece for us.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 8, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
the money always has to be right….
thats not a specific claim for MC…. there isnt a player in the world, save Pujols, that i wouldnt consider the contract when thinking about acquiring him.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
All I meant by that is don’t overpay what he’s worth. If we get into a bidding war that will surely be the outcome.
On that, I agree.
If he wants 2 years/$20 million or something, that’s just too much for us for an outfielder when we still need to get a first baseman, even if we unload Soriano and Lowe without eating much salary.
Rec'd
You can’t really ignore his defense like gondeee did. A 10+ UZR is fantastic and infinitely better than McLouth (although he was above average this season), and McLouth would be great in left. Cameron was also a little better than a 4 WAR (wins above replacement) player each of the past two seasons and three out of the past four. I don’t really want to go into market values and the value of a win, but we could get him below market price, I would imagine.
Doesn’t bother me either way. Sign him? Cool. Don’t sign him? That’s okay. As long as we do SOMETHING to get more pop out of the everyday lineup. And 25 HR’s is an improvement. But I do believe there are probably better options out there.
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He gives us pop...
and he would be a cheaper option than many other guys. His bat may be boring to you but he would have led our team in HR’s the last couple of years and he has a decent OBP. And as you said he still plays above average defense.
I think the problem is that people are expecting a “savior” to come in a be the sole reason that the Braves are good next season. I don’t think any one person is going to do that. So loogically the next thing you want to do is upgrade in certain areas. He would be a good upgrade over what we had (FUGA). I just don’t see enough downside to be utterly opposed to him.
A-FUCKING-MEN
I have been confused by the Cameron band-wagoners since day one.
What is this team full of? Piddling low-tier power hitters with the potential to hit 20 HRs. What is mike Cameron? A piddling low-tier power hitter with the potential to hit 20 HRs
How does this solve a damn thing? A .450 SLG% with 150 Ks and an OBP that hovers around .335? That would be acceptable for a rookie who can get better, but this dude is 38. Why are we even looking at him as an option?
What would everyone be saying when July comes around and ole Cam-ron is hitting .244 with 10 HR and 80 Ks? He sure wont look so good then…
Think about it.
60% of the time, it works every time
You, just like pretty much everyone else who bash the Cameron supporters have neglected to mention a better alternative.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 8, 2009 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
We have one internally. Matt Diaz. The only thing Cameron has on him is defense.
But I don’t see where the bat absolutely has to come from the OF anyway, with Schafer and Heyward in the wings. I would rather get get a big bat at 1B or 2B and move Prado over.
60% of the time, it works every time
That’s like saying the only thing a Porsche has on a Toyota is its faster.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
ur selling Diaz short calling him a Toyota, but the analogy is proper.. and wonderful
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Thanks
I started with Maserati/Hyundai, so Porsche/Toyota was a little more fair… ;-)
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
fair enough….
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
If Diaz could just tame the high stuff….
He was on his way to doing so. Keep up the good work, Matty.
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 8, 2009 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
Who are you kidding
A Porche? Cameron in no way is analogous to a Porche.
Analogy should be a Nssan Pathfinder to a Pontiac Aztec.
Neither is particularly coveted, but if you have an Aztec a pathfinder sounds kind of nice.
Of course that would be disregarding Diaz’s superior OBP and OPS last year. Is Cameron’s defensive upgrade worth that? For under 4 mill yeah, over 4, probably not.
But Aztecs are hideously ugly…Diaz is dreamy.
"Sometimes I wonder what'd it be like to be outside and not hear the birds chirping...I think it'd be kind of nice."
by alligatorimpersonator on Dec 8, 2009 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
Indeed.
Sometimes Diaz takes routes to fly balls that are equivalent to the routes that the little kids in the outfield take at the Home Run Derby.
"Sometimes I wonder what'd it be like to be outside and not hear the birds chirping...I think it'd be kind of nice."
by alligatorimpersonator on Dec 8, 2009 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
And when your walking down the road in the rain with no car at all, an Aztec sounds exquisite
I thought hurricane season was over........
Foget the cars, then
And focus on the basic point, which is that saying Matt Diaz is Cameron’s equal except for the defense is like saying that Geena Davis is Megan Fox’s equal except that she’s older.
Mike Cameron is a severely underrated 4 WAR player who can play CF. Matt Diaz is a 2 WAR player who cannot. Miie Cameron will consistently wOBA 350. Diaz hit a high water mark last year with his 384 wOBA, but he’s probably more like a 365. There’s really no comparison at all.
Sheesh. You see what you’ve done? You’ve got me talking about Mike Cameron. Fuck. At least I got in a Megan Fox reference.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
but Megan Fox is batshit crazy
ok now im just messing with you
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
You say that like it's a bad thing ;-)
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Diaz, McLouth, and who else?
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 8, 2009 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
Hopefully by July...
Diaz/McLouth/Heyward are all 3 better options. And then there’s Schafer. Cameron is good, but between those first 3, and maybe even Schafer as well, I don’t think hitting .250 with 20 HRs is more than they can provide. In fact, I’d expect at least that if not better.
Cameron>McLouth>Diaz
Heyward is still an unknown at this point.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
This. The fact that people are throwing Schafer in the OF picture is mind bottling. I’d rather have 3 proven guys with Heyward and Schafer waiting to come up due to injury, ineffectiveness, etc.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 8, 2009 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
“Mind bottling”
HAHA!
+1
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 5:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
But you have to pay these guys anyway...
with injury, ineffectiveness, what have you. None of us know what the FO plans for Heyward or Schafer, let alone both. One up on opening day and the other when the time is right, or both start in Gwinnett, or both start opening day in Ted, or what. Without that, we have no idea if Cameron makes sense or not, because for a guy who will be in demand, either 2 years or a nice chunk of change will need to be committed to him, and we are looking at a limited budget. So say you need to commit 2 years, now you have 5 OFs for 4 spots at some point in the near future.
Yeah, he’s a good player, and would be nice here, IF we can move a few other pieces around. Right now, unless we plan on at least one of JH or JS spending the entire year in Gwinnett, which I personally doubt, we have absolutely no place to play Cameron or if we do, would need to move a current player.
I would not be surprised at all to see JS spend all of 2010 in AAA.
Also, I don’t think anyone is advocating a 2 year deal for Cameron. If he can be had for 1 year for $8M-ish, it should be a no-brainer.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
Cameron just might be advocating a 2 yr deal...
and just might get it with enough interest.
And while you might think JS should spend all year in AAA, he started opening day for us last year and I don’t think the front office has regressed their opinion of him that much. I could just as easily see him spending all year in Atlanta playing CF with McLouth in LF and Diaz in RF as I could see him spending all year in Gwinnett. But that’s me.
He just had surgery. To my knowledge, he isn’t even throwing a baseball right now. It is a pretty big leap to have him MLB ready by July, let alone producing at a rate better than Nate, Cameron or Diaz.
Heyward is more likely to be up before Schafer, and once that happens, there is no need to bring Schafer up until 2011.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
I’m going with the assumption that Lowe and Soriano will be traded, along with possibly someone like KJ as well, for a 1B that isn’t overpriced to the point where we couldn’t fit Cameron in the budget. In my perfect world we would break camp with Cameron, McLouth, and Diaz as a starting outfield. Depending on how either of them do Schafer or Heyward could break camp as part of a Diaz platoon situation.
Just how I’m running through it in my mind, obviously is probably going to be pretty far off from what actually happens.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 8, 2009 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
Heyward won't play in a platoon.
That makes no sense. He will play every day either in Gwinnett or Atlanta. When we decide he is ready we move an OF, whichever one makes the most sense. It is a tricky situation. If there was a big expensive 1B bat available, you probably go that direction and hope for the best with Heyward. But there isn’t. So you go both directions and either send Heyward down at the start of the year or move an OF.
Seeing as how I didn’t say it was a stone cold lock Heyward would be in a platoon, your response is entirely unnecessary. Thanks though.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 8, 2009 8:22 PM EST up reply actions
You suggested it as a possibility.
It isn’t. That was my only point. And you’re welcome. ;) (FWIW, I still love the idea of signing Cameron.)
Or let Diaz become utility man...
giving a day off each week to each of McLouth, Heyward, Cameron, and at 1B.
Can Diaz play 1B?
He played 2.2 Innings there in 2007 (presumably after double switches and the like) but not any other time in the majors. Given that his OF defense isn’t particularly good, I think teaching him to play 1B as well may help.
He has before,...
so I’d say yes, he is capable of playing 1B. Now if you mean play it well, I have no clue.
Well put...
You built on my thoughts nicely. Cameron’s one of those guys who puts up decent looking season stats, but in the middle of the year when he’s at .244, 10, and 80 Ks, you just want to shoot him to get him out of the lineup.
Except of course
that it completely neglects the significant defensive value he provides. A run saved on defense is just as valuable as a run earned offensively, so his “lack of power” is more than made up for by his amazing defense. If we give up fewer runs we don’t need to score more runs to do better. That is the fundamental argument in favor of Mike Cameron.
Few people defense makes up for their lack of power, much less Cameron’s.
At SS you can get away with that, not in the OF
60% of the time, it works every time
Lol…you act like he only hits 6 or 7 HRs a year…you are talking about one of the best defensive CFers in the game who also hits 25 HRs year in and year out.
Your argument makes 0 sense.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
Over his last 3 season he has averaged 23 HR per year.
All it would take is the slightest regression or down year (which is likely at his age) and we are looking at a 17-19 HR hitter with little speed and mediocre OBP.
Tell me, how does even a good year of 25 HR (which he hasnt reached since 2002) solve the teams need for a cleanup hitter?
60% of the time, it works every time
soo...
the slightest regression – and you said slightest – results in little speed and mediocre OBP? He may lose a little speed, but he won’t be reduced to little speed. Plus, OBP has a lot to do with plate discipline – not something that gets worse with age, typically. Plus, Cameron is showing no signs of regressing. If the Braves got him, I’d guess it’d be a 2 year deal max. He is not going to fall apart in that short amount of time.
And no one is suggesting Cameron be our cleanup hitter.
"Sometimes I wonder what'd it be like to be outside and not hear the birds chirping...I think it'd be kind of nice."
by alligatorimpersonator on Dec 8, 2009 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
Read the fangraphs article I posted below.
Nobody is saying Cameron is our power solution or our cleanup hitter. Nobody.
What we are saying is that he would help this team out tremendously.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
The teams “need” for a cleanup hitter is a misguided way of looking at things. They need someone who provides an equivalent number of runs with their defense and bat as a clean up hitter normally does with their bat. So, get a decent hitting fantastic fielding center fielder and all of a sudden it’s the same value as a clean-up hitter. Unfortunately I don’t believe the Braves FO operates on this wavelength, they just want a bat regardless of their defensive value. And yes, if we found a slick fielder with a big bat it would be better, but labeling someone a “clean up hitter” and saying that is more valuable because you said so shows an utter disregard for reality. Runs are runs are runs. Period.
Besides all that, wouldn’t the SLIGHTEST regression mean that he hits 22 HRs?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
Tell me, how does even a good year of 25 HR (which he hasnt reached since 2002)
What?
Cameron had 30 in 04 and 25 in 08 to go along with 24 last year?
Not to mention the 25 in ’08 were in only 120 games.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 8, 2009 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
Over the past 4 seasons, he has put up this line:
.251 .340 .459 .799
He has hit 92 HRs and 124 Doubles, half of this coming in the Pitcher’s Paradise of San Diego.
He has not shown any regression in his slash stats over the past 4 seasons, so there is no reason to think that he would regress magically this year. In fact, over the past 4 seasons, I would argue that he has IMPROVED his slash stats more so than regressed in them.
He has hit 25 or more HRs twice since 2002, and hit 24 just last season.
Please, state your next argument, because your current one is total bogus.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
Who do you prefer?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
After watching the year-and-a-half long well-below replacement level production from Francouer only to see Bobby Cox run him out there every day during the midst of pennant races, I’m covinced the front office is taking too leinient of a stance with regards to Bobby’s autonomy in selecting line-ups.
During the stretch run, when Church was healthy, Bobby would routinely stick Garret Anderson’s worthless bat in the 5th spot and worthless glove in LF, with LaRoche hitting 7th and Church on the bench. Bobby’s a nice guy and everything, but nice don’t win baseball games, and Church should’ve been in the line-up. Not only would this have given the Braves a better chance to win in 2009, it would’ve increased interest in Church on the trade market. Now, they’re probably looking at getting nothing for him.
The team sacrificed wins by playing Garred Anderson over Church and sacrificed value by DFA’ing a valuable commodity.
In 2009 spring training, the Braves were able to trade Josh Anderson for Rudy Darrow. Rudy Darrow sucks, but he’s still young and all and he costs nothing. The Braves are probably going to get nothing, and would take Rudy Darrow straight up for Ryan Church at this point. Ryan Church is a better player on a more valuable contract than Josh Anderson.
This is a sign that things were handled poorly. It would’ve made more sense if the team gained anything on the field by playing Garret over Church, but they actually lost sometihg on the field.
Overall a piss-poorly handled situation by a manager who is admittedly past his prime and a front office that wouldn’t man up and tell him he’s wrong.
Blame whoever you want. Though keep in mind, it was the organization’s decision to keep Bobby Cox around. In my opinion, they should’ve anticipated his limitations and investigated ways to off-set them.
http://www.capitolavenueclub.com/
The team … sacrificed value by DFA’ing a valuable commodity.
Who would you have bumped off the 40-man instead?
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Is Valdez or Jones still on it?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
MAREK MAREK MAREK!
The guy can’t keep his ERA under 5 at AA or AAA. If someone wants that space filler we got as half the return for a top 5 1B in the game, have at it.
I guess Church was going anyway, but why the hell is Marek on there? I’d assume he’s next to go if we need a space.
for what's its worth
I think there are two ways to construct our offense for 2010.
1) sign MC (or a similar player) and sign LaRoche/Johnson/GLaus
that would give us two 20 -25 HR potential guys (admittedly Johnson isnt a 20HR guy but he has value elsewhere).
2) or we find a way to get an absolute masher, AGon or Fielder come to mind. and then leave the OF alone (although i would like to hang on to Church, but it doesn’t look like that is gonna happen). that would give us 35-40 HR potential maybe more
Honestly Id prefer the first option, bc it only costs money, whereas the second option costs considerable money and even more in terms of talent. But Id be happy with either…
the talk that MC wouldnt help this team is absolutely ridiculous, he is a plus defender and has decent power and gets on base at a decent clip. So long as we are paying him in the 6-8M neighborhood i would think its a decent deal. just look at what PWHjort or cavebird said above.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
this
More solid players > one great player
One great player could get injured, have a bad year, etc. Plus, we would have to give up a lot to get that one great player. With more not as good, but still solid players, we take away the risk in putting too much hope in one player, and we don’t have to give up as much to get them.
"Sometimes I wonder what'd it be like to be outside and not hear the birds chirping...I think it'd be kind of nice."
by alligatorimpersonator on Dec 8, 2009 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
From Fangraphs
They did a good article on this very discussion and compared Cameron to Bay and Holliday…you may be surprised at the results:
With the season over and the clock ticking towards the beginning of free agency, you’re going to see a lot of rankings of the available players. I would imagine that every single one of them will have Jason Bay slotted in as the #2 position player on the market, behind only Matt Holliday. And there’s every reason to expect Bay to pick up the second biggest check of any free agent position player this winter.
However, there’s another right-handing hitting outfielder on the market that is a better player than Bay and yet will still demand a fraction of the price. That player? The chronically underrated Mike Cameron.
Did you know that, since 2002 (the first year we calculate WAR for), Mike Cameron has been worth +29.6 wins, or about the same as David Ortiz, Aramis Ramirez, and Jim Thome? Or that Cameron has posted a WAR of +4.0 or higher in three of the last four seasons? Yet, due to a slew of factors that include accumulating a large portion of value on defense, spending most of his career in extreme pitchers parks, and posting a low average with a lot of strikeouts, Cameron has never gotten the recognition he deserves.
That will continue this winter, when Bay signs a contract that dwarfs what Cameron will receive, despite the fact that there’s really no argument for Bay being a better player.
Bay is a better hitter – that much is clear. Bay’s career wOBA is .384 versus a .347 mark for Cameron. A 40 point gap in wOBA is significant, and is the obvious driving force for the difference in perception between the two. But how much more value does Bay provide with the bat than Cameron in any given year?
Bay has produced +28 runs above average per 600 PA with the bat since 2002, while Cameron is at +13 runs above average per 600 PA over the same time frame. That’s a 15 run per season gap. It’s a real difference, but probably smaller than the perception of their relative offensive abilities.
That’s just the offensive side, of course. On the other side of the ball, Cameron is one of the better defensive center fielders in the game, while Bay is a bad defensive corner outfielder. You don’t have to trust UZR to agree with those assessments. Those aren’t controversial statements.
If we want to look at the numbers, Cameron is +6 UZR/150 over the last eight years, while Bay is -8 UZR/150. But, of course, they aren’t being compared to the same average baseline, since Cameron plays CF and Bay plays LF. Historically, the gap between an average LF and an average CF is about 10 runs, so the gap is actually 24 runs over their careers.
Even if you don’t like UZR, and you want to cut that number in half to account for your uncertainty about defensive value, you’ll still come out with a total value that makes them about equal. And, given the samples we have, you should trust UZR a lot more than that. With a correct amount of regression, the defensive difference comes out larger than the offensive difference, making Cameron the better player overall.
So, if Cameron has been the better player, why are teams going to pay more for Bay? Overvaluing offense is certainly one factor, but there’s also the age issue. Cameron is going to be 37 next year, while Bay just turned 31. That changes the way we project them going forward.
However, the primary factor in any aging curve has to be the starting point of a player’s value. Cameron may be older, but he’s also better, and he has a skill set that ages significantly better. He’s shown little to no erosion in skills over the last few years. At worst, you could use the age gap to make them have fairly similar projections in value for 2010.
Yet Bay is going to get a three to five year deal for something in the neighborhood of $15 million per season, while Cameron is probably going to have to settle for a one year deal for around the $10 million he made last year.
That’s nutty. If you think Cameron’s on the verge of collapse (he’s shown no signs of it) and you don’t trust defensive metrics (in this case, the conclusions are pretty obviously true), then you think that they’re similarly valuable. In reality, the odds are pretty good that Cameron is going to outperform Bay next season, just as he’s done in most every season recently, and he’s going to do it for far less money.
If you want a right-handed hitting outfielder this winter, and you don’t want to pony up for Matt Holliday, Jason Bay is not the alternative. Call Mike Cameron instead.
I gotta say, after reading that, if you still think Cameron is a bad idea, you just are being willfully ignorant.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 4:17 PM EST reply actions
Great article
"Sometimes I wonder what'd it be like to be outside and not hear the birds chirping...I think it'd be kind of nice."
by alligatorimpersonator on Dec 8, 2009 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
Fine then, you win...
now who do you give up, because come July, we’ve got an OF without him and someone will become useless between him, McLouth, and Diaz.
There is this thing in July called the trade deadline that would solve this little “problem” for us.
To me, Diaz becomes expendable at this point. With McLouth locked up for a few more years and Schafer and Heyward supposedly ready at this point, Diaz’s days are numbered anyway.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
At which point you are getting pennies on the dollar...
from teams knowing you are desperate to shed dead weight.
Or we keep him on the bench as a PH and move someone like Infante or KJ/Prado at that point. The possibilities are endless.
Besides, worrying about having to make room on your roster for one or two rookies is putting the cart before the horse. Cross that bridge when you come to it, but you can’t cross it if it isn’t even on your route.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
Well put.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 8, 2009 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t understand why having a great outfield at the start of the year is such a problem. If the outfield is going great then there’s no reason to bring Heyward up just cause it’s June. Playing in AAA for most of the year won’t hurt him, especially if it’s not hurting the Major League team.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
I just don't see Heyward down all year...
as I’ve said before, working a starter into your roster mid year is much easier than a position player. I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see Heyward in RF on opening day.
If Heyward is our Opening Day RF, we’d better have Prince Fielder on 1B.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 9, 2009 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
You didn’t really address my question…
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
I didn't see a question in there unless you are asking
why is a great OF at the start of the year a problem? It isn’t. Paying them may be depending on the salary limitations of the club, but having an excellent OF on opening day would be a good thing.
Right. So why not try to get one and not worry about “blocking” Heyward? The kid is 20.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Again, ...
are we certain Heyward isn’t part of the opening day plans? He can just as easily be part of a “great OF” as Cameron.
He could be.
But Cameron is safer. Having four starting outfielders isn’t a problem, we can always deal one. Obviously, however, we don’t sign Cameron or any other outfielder at the expense of getting a lesser 1B—-we need that far more than an OF.
He could also just as easily be a big rookie bust and not hit 50 HRs with a .400 BA and 200 SBs like everyone is expecting him to do.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 10, 2009 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
Where are you getting those numbers?...
would .280, with say 18 HRs and solid slash stats be acceptable/reasonable? It’s certainly a HUGE upgrade over Anderson.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 10, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
This for posting. Cements my interest in Cameron 100% now.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 8, 2009 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
ThisThanks for posting.
Fixed.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 8, 2009 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
Dude
“Bottling” and now “this” instead of “thanks”? You really are outta practice, aren’t you…
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
Haha, bottling is a joke…pretty sure it’s from some Will Ferrell movie. But yeah, not sure how “this” is even close to “thanks”.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 8, 2009 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
It’s from Blades of Glory.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
I can tell you exactly when he says it in the movie – right when they get to the world championships and are standing at the check-in table.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 9, 2009 9:40 AM EST up reply actions
will ferrell wasn’t even in dodgeball.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 9, 2009 9:41 AM EST up reply actions
In other news, Peter Gammons is leaving ESPN, according to mlbtraderumors.com.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 4:38 PM EST reply actions
Also according to MLBtraderumors.com:
The Braves are discussing righty Derek Lowe with multiple teams, MLBTR has learned. In an article yesterday, MLB’s Mark Bowman suggested Lowe could be viewed as a cheaper, more durable alternative to John Lackey. Lowe is owed $45MM over the next three years.
Apparently, there is at least a market for D Lowe and he won’t be dead weight.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 4:40 PM EST reply actions
I saw this too
Never sure where to put these things with all these winter rumors flying around.
This was good news and really, why would the Braves spread some Hot Air and try to drum up some manufactured interest in Lowe? I think everyone knows we will take pretty much anything for him because of our situation.
And based on the availability of good SP on the market, I’d say that teams are going to be willing to pay a reasonable asking price for him.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
We all should rejoice with this news
Wonder how soon we’ll pull the trigger so I can sleep through the night, finally.
lol…i have had mlbtr refreshing on my BB all day, and (obviously) I have been here all day too…I need the winter meetings to end SOON!
I got 4 hours of sleep last night because of this.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
BillShanks’ Twitterfeed:
“Wren said the bat could come from free agency, moreso than a trade. Could Soriano & a starter be moved in the same deal? Wren said yes”
Damn…that would be a HUGE deal: Soriano and Lowe/Vaz???
That would have to be a 3 team deal then. No way 1 team can take on $23M in salary on 2 pitchers.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
Yankees can take anything.
Not that we’re trading with them.
-Yellow Jackets, Braves, Falcons, Hawks, and Thrashers fan!
What do they have left to give in return? Cabrera? Barf!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
Yankees are "cutting payroll" according to mlbtr
Doubt they’ll pony up the dough for Lowe.
Doesn’t it make you want to punch a small animal when you hear a team is cutting their payroll DOWN to 185mill?
that is nearly a $20M cut too!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
besides, with Joba and Mariano, I don’t think they are in the market for a late inning BP arm.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
Joba is still a starter as far as ive heard
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Really? I thought they were smarter than that.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
The Orioles could.
They have a ton of money available this year, need pitching to complement the kids coming up, and have a not particularly attractive crop of free agents to choose from. Assuming we kick in about $3 million, that is a total of $20 million, which would leave them enough to sign a 1B which they need. They shed a ton of bad contracts this offseason. I read somewhere that Wren said someone is interested in both, I think it has to be the Orioles.
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