Heard the Braves have inquired about Josh Willingham, but there doesn't seem to be much common ground.
Bill Shanks from the Winter Meetings
I'd like Willingham in left, butcher of a fielder and all. We get to see him enough with Florida and Washington that I really like the way he plays.
8 months ago
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Washington needs a 2b right? Try to swap KJ before the tender deadline… I thought I had heard over the Summer Rizzo had a crush on KJ
HansonManCrush
by HansonManCrush on Dec 7, 2009 11:01 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Aren’t they moving Guzman to 2B to make way for Desmond?
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
That’s what I kept seeing. Man, gonna be a lot of balls rolling through the middle in DC.
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Is Desmond that bad? Guzman’s problem is going to his left, which shouldn’t be as much of an issue at 2B as it was at SS.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
I’ve watched Ian play a ton of games the last 4 years and he’s only gotten marginally better. When I saw him with AAA and in th majors this year he was making the same mistakes he made in A ball 4 years ago. He just doesn’t have the quick instincts or reactions it takes to play SS. He’s got the athleticism and the range and the arm, but not what it really takes. If they had him in CF or maybe even RF if he keeps hitting with pop, he’d be fine, but that’s a huge hole in the middle of your defense if they leave him at SS.
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Too bad about Desmond. He’s got a nice bat, so I’m sure they’ll find a spot for him.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
He has developed into a nice hitter, so it is a shame that the D never came around. It’s not that he’s not a hard worker either, he just can’t make it. He’s a great guy too, so I certainly hope the best for him.
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Hm. Apparently I’m in the minority here, but I just don’t think Willingham is a difference-maker. He’d be a slight upgrade over GA (who wouldn’t), but he shouldn’t be much more than Plan E or F. There’s other guys we could consider before settling for Willingham. In fact, I’d go after Uggla and stick him in left before going for Willingham. Neither can field, but Uggla’s got more thump.
I like Uggla in left too but he wants
to play 2b, so he might get a
chip on his shoulder… Then we could have GA part 2 haha
HansonManCrush
by HansonManCrush on Dec 7, 2009 11:10 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Willingham is much more than just a slight upgrade over GA. Try like 3 wins more. And the batting between Willingham and Uggla is alot closer than you think.
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by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 7, 2009 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
But you'd think he'd be a better fielder...
so that rewidens the gap. Although, if you look at their 4 seasons up as everyday players, Willingham has had a higher ops in 3 of the 4, and that 1 was Uggla’s best as well as Willingham’s worst with the injuries.
Whether or not Willingham should be a better fielder is completely irrelevant seeing as how Uggla has never played an inning away from 2B. There’s no way to “rewiden the gap” without knowing how Uggla would fair out there.
Are you really trying to compare defense at two completely different positions?
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 7, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
Not really...
just saying you’d think someone who plays 2B would have plenty of range out there, and almost certainly couldn’t be worse than Willingham.
The trick with Uggla is the “you’d think someone who plays 2B would have plenty of range” thing, because he’s pretty well a butcher there already. I don’t really think he could be worse than Willingham, and certainly not a GA level, but I don’t really expect any defensive advantage of him over Willingham. That being said, they have comparable 2nd tier batting skills, but Uggla trades a few avg/obp points for more bop, and bop is what we need. Uggla, allow me to clarify, is definitely not my number one choice to fill the void, I was just making the point that I’d rather have him than Willingham, which I guess makes Uggla Plan D if I follow up my original post.
Uggla’s career SLG and ISO are .482 and .225
Willingham’s career SLG and ISO are .478 and .213
Like I said, they are much closer than people tend to believe. You’re focusing too much on HRs. Also, Willingham has a better career OBP.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 7, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
I acknowledged that Willingham has a better OBP. I also mentioned they had comparable lines. I also said Uggla hits more homers. His SLG may be nearly identical, but those extra 1-run-per-hit moments can help this anemic offense more than Willingham’s extra 2-bases-per-hit.
They are very similar, no argument. But all this considered I’d go for Uggla before Willingham, but I still think neither needs to be anything of a priority.
It’s really pretty much a wash…Uggla will hit more HRs, but Willingham makes better contact and hits more 2B.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 7, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
You know what they say when you assume something…
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by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 7, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
I'd pass on Willingham
The Nats are apparently asking for a lot (as they have had numerous inquiries), his offense is an upgrade, but he is streaky, which can be annoying. Also, his defense is really bad; it only looked passable in Washington because Dunn was playing LF before moving to 1B. He’d barely be an upgrade of Anderson on defense, and that is tough to do. Given his cost and marginal benefit, I would look elsewhere.
Again, Anderson was much, much worse in the field than Willingham last season. What are you basing your stance on?
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 7, 2009 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
I based it on both metrics and what I saw
I watched enough of both of them to know they both looked like they couldn’t play in the field. The defensive metric are not that different either—-yes, Willingham was “only” -5.2 runs in the field last year per fangraphs and GA was -11.8 runs. Willingham, however, put up a -11.7 runs clunker in the field as recently as 2007. I just don’t see him as much of a defensive upgrade. True, I might be better than Garrett Anderson last year, but Willingham is a very poor fielder.
I like how you bring up his terrible fielding performance from 2007 while neglecting to mention his -0.4 and 1.3 he posted in LF back in 2006 and 2008 respectively. Cool.
They’re both shitty defenders, I agree, but Willingham would have been more than a slight defensive upgrade last season.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 7, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
Wasn’t Willingham injured for most of 2007, or was that 2008?
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
102 games in 2008.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 7, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
I didn't mention those seasons for a reason...
…just like I didn’t mention GA’s prior good fielding seasons—they weren’t particularly relevant. My point was that it takes a special kind of bad fielder to ever post a season like that. And Willingham is one. Not quite as bad as GA last year, but not good at all.
So…two recent seasons where a player displays average defense are not relevant to a discussion about said player’s defensive ability. Thanks for clearing that up.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 7, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
Defensive metrics are questionable, but serve a purpose...
…obviously there are questionable—-I don’t think Willingham (or the zillions of others who have had this happen) goes from scary horrific to average to bad in three straight seasons. Accordingly, I distrust the metrics a bit. However, I think that to ever get a massively horrific season, you do have to be a pretty bad defender. Hence, the 2007 season for Willingham meant more to me than 2008. It is very hard to distinguish between levels of bad (or good) in fielding, but I think there are certain signs that can point between good or bad and horrific seasons are one of these things.
So defensive metrics shouldn't count...
or be relied upon, except in this instance when it agrees with your point, but for only one season and not the others?
Sound logic, right?
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 7, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
No, that's not my point....
…when a defensive metric agrees with observation, it makes sense. We all know Willingham can’t field worth crap. Yes, he is probably better than GA last year, but he could still put up a clunker season that is just as bad. That’s my point. I don’t want the Braves to put anyone in the OF that even could possibly be that bad.
I like Willingham, but not sure if he’s a good fit. Maybe we can trade KJ and put Willingham in LF? Then, sign Cameron to play CF and move McLouth in RF? Trade a pitcher for a 1B then?
Argh, too many scenarios. Should be interesting to see what happens.
-Yellow Jackets, Braves, Falcons, Hawks, and Thrashers fan!
4th outfielder. Bobby never seems to let him play a full season anyways.
-Yellow Jackets, Braves, Falcons, Hawks, and Thrashers fan!
McLouth in RF? You know he has no arm, right? Guys would be going first to home on singles.
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No arm?
He doesn’t have the typical RF arm, but he’s decent. I think he’s got an average CF arm, so he wouldn’t be a complete disappointment in right.
Certainly, he’d be better in right than Diaz was.
No, McLouth’s arm is very very weak. He’s not Juan Pierre bad but he has a below average arm. In LF it would play a lot better but in RF he wouldn’t be able to get the ball to 3B. It would be a track meet for other teams.
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How would you know?
He never throws the ball in for a play.
by FineHamAbounds on Dec 7, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
I really hope we get willingham or carlos lee, people don’t notice how good willingham is besides his injuries.
by JasonHeywardisGod on Dec 7, 2009 1:12 PM EST reply actions
Only? Isn’t that more than any player on the Braves? Maybe I’m wrong, isn’t that more than the Braves have ever paid a player?
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Annd if Willingham’s defense is a dealbreaker, you’re gonna LOVE Carlos Lee.
by FineHamAbounds on Dec 7, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
yea but we have a terrible contract with derek lowe and astros have no farm and lee is waht you call a real cleanup hitter who rakes pitching and lf is made for the position for the all bat no glove, I think people don’t know how underrated lee is, and his ungodly contract is only for 3 more years just like lowe..everyone is talking about how we can’t find a clean-up hitter, well they are hard to find and if we have to overpay for one then so be it, but like said he has a no trade clause but he might accept to go to a real team with WS aspirations not a joke like the Astros.
by JasonHeywardisGod on Dec 7, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
He’ll be 34 next season and has posted an OPS above .900 once in his career. And he’s making $18.5 mill each of the next 3 years. The most he’s even been worth in his career has been $15 million.
Shall I continue?
meh
Another rumor of acquiring a second-tier hitter via trade or signing a second tier hitter like Cameron. This would give us an entire lineup of 5 and 6 hitters. Yay?
Wren better be doing everything in his power to get a REAL cleanup hitter before settling on these guys.
60% of the time, it works every time
I'm sure he's exhausting those options
But they are, for obvious reasons, more difficult to pull off. NOT AN EXCUSE- if we can get the big bat we need to do it, cuz these fallback options sound terrible.
Just a thought-
Perhaps we could find a bat from Detroit- no, not Miggy. There’s been buzz for weeks that Detroit wants to move Granderson, and I’m kind of surprised this possibilty hasn’t been tossed around in these parts. His defense, slugging, OBP, and power are all comparable to Cameron but Grandy adds quite a bit of speed as well. He’s signed pretty economically over the next three seasons, though he’ll make 10M in ‘12 and his option for ’13 is probably a bit high. The only real knock on him is that he’s a .250-.260 hitter, but then again so is Cameron. This gives us more long-term options plus the ability to dangle Nate later if we want to and still be left with a strong defensive team-controlled outfield for the next couple of years. I’m not sure what the Tigers are seeking for him, but I know they want to move Jackson as well, and we have young non-Hanson pitching we could send them, as well as a replacement CF in Schafer, among pieces that could be included. I know he’s left-handed, but it’s at least worth a phone call to find out what the price would be.
Also, consider that one of the prevailing ideas around here has been to stick Cameron in CF and resign LaRoche (a plan I am still an advocate of)- adding a right-handed and a left-handed bat while relegating Diaz to 4th OF duties (assuming the presence of Heyward). Suppose we put Grandy in CF instead of Cameron, but play Diaz at first. The net result is roughly the same- upgraded outfield defense, added power (and in this case speed), and an additional lefty and righty on the field.
Did you look at his lefty/righty splits? If you going to make over 10 million you really shouldn’t be a platoon player.
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Well, he would make less than 10M for the next two years, it’s the last year of the deal and then his option that get up into 8 figures. But no, I didn’t look at the splits, just his batting line.
Matty has a career total of 2.2 innings at 1B. How do you figure putting there is going to work out?
Don’t have a clue. All of the above is pure off-the-cuff speculation, I pulled the Matt-at-first idea from another poster who suggested it a couple days ago. I honestly hadn’t considered moving Matty there until that day, and I’m not necessarily advocating it, I was just trying to expunge all the possibilities and ramifications of acquiring Granderson.
Granderson is essentially Mclouth but can’t hit lefties
they both have 25-30 hr power
both can steal 20-30 bases
both play cf but granderson is a much better fielder
I thought the braves wanted a cleanup hitter not a platoon hitter which granderson is.
by JasonHeywardisGod on Dec 7, 2009 2:48 PM EST reply actions
Granderson is a good fielder...
…but not a much better fielder than Cameron. He has kept his defense up. And he doesn’t cost real value in trade like Granderson.
From MLBTR:
Nationals manager Jim Riggleman suggested to WEEI’s Alex Speier that the team would have to be overwhelmed to move Josh Willingham.
That ought to be it for our involvement then. The last thing we need, other than Soriano accepting arb, is to overpay for someone of Willingham’s caliber.
I agree
Wren should look elsewhere and when I mean elsewhere, could LA be a possible trading partner? I keep hearing that Juan Rivera could be available.
by SmithnCompany on Dec 7, 2009 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
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