Braves GM Frank Wren on Starters and Trades
by gondeee on Dec 5, 2009 10:18 AM EST
156 comments
Yesterday on Sirius XM's Home Plate Channel, host Jim Bowden asked Atlanta Braves General Manager Frank Wren this question about his plans for his 6 starting pitchers:
Host/Jim Bowden: "Is there any scenario where you can see all six of your starters right now going to spring training and possibly breaking with the Atlanta club and one moving to the bullpen, or do you think for sure a trade has to be made by opening day?"
Frank Wren: "Yeah, I think that’s unlikely, Jim, based on the amount of interest we have in our starters and also our need. We think that we can [inaudible] dual purpose for the move, maybe getting a piece back for us, or freeing up salary that allows us to compete for different guys. So there are a couple things there that I think will enhance our club which would make it unlikely we’d go to spring training with them."
He seems very confident that he'll be able to move one of his starters. The money quote being "the amount of interest we have in our starts." Of course, the next line says "and also our need," which could mean that the Braves must trade one of those starters because of payroll and filling out the roster. Overall, though, I like his confidence in being able to move a starter and at the same time getting something valuable in return.
Will something happen during the winter meetings next week? I guess it depends on whether or not they find the right deal, or whether they have to wait until after Lackey signs.
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Yep, Lackey is the key.
Whoever comes in second for him-and that should be at least four or five teams-will come calling.
Sounds like he has a good idea...
of what return he can get for a starter, depending on how the free agent market shakes out.
blah blah blah
same old stuff we already know. they only way i’ll consider this off season a success is if they dump lowe and pick up either holliday or bay.
haha
Don’t hold your breath on that second part. But from what I’ve seen from Frank Wren so far, anything is possible. And the man is one helluva negotiator.
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 5, 2009 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
I will consider this offseason a success if this team makes the playoffs – with or without Lowe or Holliday or Bay.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 5, 2009 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
So you're saying...
the moves can be deemed good or bad after the fact depending on if we make the post season.
[sharpening stick to poke ;)]
Isn't that pretty obvious...
…the goal is to win. No matter how good moves look on paper, if they don’t help you win, they didn’t work.
Exactly.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 5, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
dude he just trapped you into his argument for why the Teixeira trade was a bad trade…ur an idiot (i love you, but ur an idiot)
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
I avoided the trap…sorta.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 5, 2009 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
Successful offseason is different than making a good move…or trade in this case (I know what you’re getting at!)
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 5, 2009 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
Nope…just like the football discussion – just because you don’t get what you are going for doesn’t make the decision to go for it a bad one.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 6, 2009 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
Agree…Dump Lowe and sign either one. I am tired of having medicore players on this team. we need to make a splash this off-season especially since its Bobby Cox;s last year as manager. By dumping Lowe we free up $15 million. These guys are not getting Texiera money thats for sure so I think maybe $16 or $17 might do the trick
I say sign Bay, trade Freddy Freeman and another prospect to the Padres for Adrian Gonzalez whi is proven to be a great hitter. Nothing against FF but hes exactly what he is, “A Prospect”
by AlRoBraves95 on Dec 5, 2009 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
That would be nice but...
…Bay will want too much even with Lowe off the books (he decline 4 years/$60 million already) and the Padres will want someone better than Freeman as the headliner in a Gonzalez trade. If the Pads would do it, we would jump on it, but they’ll probably want Hanson or Heyward. Maybe we could do something with JJ and Freeman, but I doubt that is even possible.
Padres' Pitching
Do they need young pitching? We have a lot of it. I am worried we could see Texas-type trade where we restocked their minor league and gutted our position players. This time, we could restock the Padres’ pitching system.
Am I just worrying too much?
by hollerin' brave on Dec 5, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
They want top shelf talent
They’ll take young pitching or hitting, they pretty much need everything. But when they look at our pitching, they’ll want Hanson or JJ. When they look at the hitting, they’ll want Heyward. We won’t want to give it to them. If we can get him for just restocking their system, I’d do it—-I’d give them Freeman, Teheran, and Schafer. I think they’ll want more, however. Given his contract Gonzalez is too valuable. So valuable, I think, that nobody will meet the asking price. If I had to guess, I don’t think they make a move.
I say sign Bay, trade Freddy Freeman and another prospect to the Padres for Adrian Gonzalez whi is proven to be a great hitter. Nothing against FF but hes exactly what he is, "A Prospect"
Exactly. That is why we can’t just trade him and another prospect for A-Gon – because the Padres know that he is just a prospect.
Seriously. If they traded one of the best hitters in the game for 2 prospects, they are idiots.
Why can’t you guys see that making a move, either signing someone (Bay) or trading for someone isn’t as simple as going to wal-mart and buying some tylenol. It isn’t like we do what we want. There are two sides to every deal.
I get so sick of the “all we have to do is trade for this person and sign this one” crap.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 5, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
It's typical rosterbation...
…you look at guys you want on your team and pretend you can get them for pennies on the dollar. It’s silly, but it is December, pitchers and catchers don’t report for almost three months. :(
Football is on and college basketball is getting warmed up.
:)
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 5, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
But can that really replace baseball?
Not for me. I am watching college football, but still reading and posting here at the same time.
haha..
I am flipping between football and basketball and posting here…I need an intervention!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 5, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
We get our intervention...
…when pitchers and catchers report!
Agreed.
College football, College basketball and LeBron James are 4 1/2 month commercial break between baseball seasons.
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Dec 6, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
I’m hitting that deep winter depression. The other day I got off the phone with a girl, it was a great phone call, but one of my first thoughts was “It’s such a shame that one day we’re going to hate each other”. I need baseball, otherwise life is just miserable.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Hey everyone, Mr. Sanchez has been around TC long enough to pile it on!
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
haha
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 7, 2009 9:52 AM EST up reply actions
Wow, just wow...
“I haven’t had an orthodox career, and I’ve wanted more than anything to have your respect. The first time I didn’t feel it, but this time I feel it, and I can’t deny the fact that you like me, right now, you like me!”
yuck…
"The Free Willy song was good." ~ The Surgeon
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 6, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
Rosterbate elsewhere.
"Sometimes I wonder what'd it be like to be outside and not hear the birds chirping...I think it'd be kind of nice."
by alligatorimpersonator on Dec 5, 2009 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
At least your expectations aren’t too high.
"The Free Willy song was good." ~ The Surgeon
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 5, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Say we get Pujols, does that us WS favorites?
Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.
No, ESPN would still pick the Sox and Yankees over us.
"Are you tryin to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?"
…but what if we somehow got Jeter instead of Pujols? ESPN would be torn!
"Sometimes I wonder what'd it be like to be outside and not hear the birds chirping...I think it'd be kind of nice."
by alligatorimpersonator on Dec 5, 2009 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
if we got Derek Jeter
ESPN would relocate to Atlanta and would rename themselves to ABAM:
Atlanta
Braves
Are
Awsome
"Are you tryin to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?"
If we traded for Jeter,
The teams that won the last three or four world series would have to give their trophies to us by default for his incredible intangibles plus his spanish moss & grapefruit scent, correct?
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Dec 6, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Calm eyes.
"The Free Willy song was good." ~ The Surgeon
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 6, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
any team that has Pujols is a WS favorite
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
so the Cardinals are the world series favorite? I dont think so..
"Are you tryin to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?"
favorite is too strong i guess
WS contender
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Hahaha...amazing.
"The Free Willy song was good." ~ The Surgeon
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 6, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
I will consider this offseason a success if we dump Lowe and get a bat without sacraficing our future. 2010 is nice but this team has the keys to be dominant for many years, don’t throw it all away for a one-year run
HansonManCrush
by HansonManCrush on Dec 5, 2009 12:07 PM EST via mobile reply actions
What if we get that bat without “dumping” Lowe? Would that still be successful?
I don’t see why “dumping Lowe” is a priority here…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 5, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
Why? Because if Wren can gain $12 or 15M worth of extra manuveering room, the chances of scoring a big bat go way up.
I get that, but that doesn’t make “Dumping Lowe” a priority, nor will it be an indicator of a successful offseason.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 5, 2009 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
I think the reason why I and so many other Braves fans want to dump Lowe is because last year he was statistically our worst pitcher but was making the most money. (And was supposedly our “ace.”)
He was not statistically our worst. I used to think so too, but he was actually pretty good with a rough ERA. He was more inconsistant than KK, but his perifs were better for the most part.
Besides, calling him our “worst” is like calling the loser of a Nascar race “slow”.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 5, 2009 7:31 PM EST up reply actions
Well, we could quibble over stats for a while. I do put a lot of weight behind ERA. And don’t get me wrong, I’d have no problem having a rotation with Lowe in it, but the real problem is the contract that comes with him and I think we can both agree that he did not perform up to the level of his contract. KK showed flashes of brilliance, especially in big spots, which may mean he’d be good in the post season. You could even argue that KK will pitch even better/more consistently this upcoming season after a full year of MLB seasoning.
Plus, it looks like it’s either going to be Vasquez or Lowe that will be traded. I haven’t heard too much about KK being floated around out there (especially after the Saito pickup). And given the options, I think all Braves fans would rather have Vasquez. Granted Javy would get more in return, but he was so key for us last year, and dumping most of Lowe’s contract to spend on a bat would be a huge boost.
You’re kinda preaching to the choir here regarding KK. I also agree that ideally we would trade Lowe, but I don’t think it is necessary to “dump” him as has been mentioned a few times.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 5, 2009 8:15 PM EST up reply actions
yes.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 5, 2009 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
ERA is a fairly poor means to judge a pitcher’s ability.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 6, 2009 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
Are runs scored when they're on the mound or not?...
I’d say that’s an effective way to judge pitchers.
no it isn’t. too many variables to take ERA seriously by itself.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 6, 2009 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
It’s pretty clear that ERA is a very inferior stat. Plenty of others out there that are better at indicating a pitcher’s worth.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 6, 2009 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, like wins
just kidding.
"Sometimes I wonder what'd it be like to be outside and not hear the birds chirping...I think it'd be kind of nice."
by alligatorimpersonator on Dec 7, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
Urge to kill…rising…
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 7, 2009 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
There is another pitcher that is way more valuable to trade
Keep Lowe and trade “him”
I think you know who im talking about
Trading someone at the height of their worth is smart!
You must be talking about JJ.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 6, 2009 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
More likely Vazquez. Height of his value comment.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Not sure I understand why the vagueness of "him" is necessary.
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Dec 6, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t either. Not sure why trading a guy who’s finally found success and a home is necessary either.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Let's see...
-Pitcher we’ve had our eyes on for years… check
-Pitcher who dominates in a return to the NL… check
-Pitcher who openly admits to loving Atlanta and wanting to stay… check
-Pitcher who is an absolute horse until the final start… check
Shit, why not send him packing? He hates New York and the west coast, let’s just see if Philly will give us Jayson Werth!*
*denotes sarcasm.
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Dec 6, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
I was being facetious.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 6, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
I remember last offseason… we were discussing Jair Jurrjens, Jorge Campillo, and possibly Smoltz and Glavine filling out our rotation… now look at it. Hudson/Lowe/Vazquez/Jurrjens/Hanson/Kawakami. You have to give props to Frank Wren for this, he really turned this team around. Now that our pitching is fixed, it’s time to see Wren work his magic on the offensive side this offseason.
Remember when a bunch of us hated this guy for losing out on Peavy, Burnett, Furcal, Griffey, Smoltz, etc…? Weird how things change.
Not all of us hated the fact that we didn’t get Peavy, Burrnett, Furcal, Griffey, or Smoltz.
"The Free Willy song was good." ~ The Surgeon
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 5, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
I agree. Despite that, there were a lot of Wren-haters last offseason though. This time around there seems to be nothing but praise for him. That’s the point I’m trying to make.
There were a few, but I think we did a pretty good job of proving to them then that they knew not of that of which they spoke.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 5, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
Wren stinks up the place
He is tearing this team apart!!!
*Frank Wren for president
Fair enough.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 6, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
not at all...
but you have to admit the public nature of those misses (although each a different way), certainly was ugly.
True, and I think in most cases, Frank Wren became the scapegoat. At least for the Smoltz and Glavine debacles
But that's OK.
Wren’s okay taking the heat. I think he directs a lot of it toward himself on purpose, just to give everyone else a break, and so that the moves he makes are judged on their own merits (as opposed to whining about pwnership/payroll constraints, etc.). That’s a good quality in a GM.
by FineHamAbounds on Dec 5, 2009 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
“Pwnership.” hahaha… It’s not like this is Pittsburgh.
by FineHamAbounds on Dec 5, 2009 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
Haha +100
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Dec 6, 2009 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
Well, I didn’t bash Wren, because a lot of it was outside of his control, but I was upset that we didn’t get Furcal or Smoltz. In fact, I’d still take Furcal at 2B and Smoltz for our bullpen. But alas.
Furcal was horrible last year.
And Wren didn’t burn that bridge to Smoltzville…John did.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 5, 2009 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
I think Furcal’s season last year was an anomaly. I’d still love to have his speed and he’d be the closest thing we’ve had to a lead off hitter since…ohhh…Furcal. And like I said, I wasn’t angry at Wren over most of the signings, I realize that Smoltz wanted to start and we weren’t prepared to run the risk.
Furcal hasn’t been good for several years. Last year wasn’t an anomolly – it was just another year with the same production as previous years.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 5, 2009 8:17 PM EST up reply actions
This. It’s a trend. The money the Braves would have given him would have turned out to be a waste.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Furcal has...
Proven himself to be a liar to the organization in regard to his age (For a brief period, he was thought to be the first MLB player born in the 1980’s, even though he was born in ‘78). He had multiple DUI’s during his time in Atlanta, at least one when he was still supposedly “under 21.” Despite stealing close to 100 bases his final year in the minors, he never topped 40 for us (though Bobby never really was all that run-happy in that era). He’s a small middle infielder who gets homer-happy whenever he gets one over the fence and ends up swinging for the fences for the next week as a result. Glad LA still gets to deal with him.
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Dec 6, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
No, Frank Wren burned the bridge when he ran to the press and lied about the deal he’d offered Smoltz, misrepresenting the facts to make it look like he’d offered John the same amount of money as Boston, in an effort to save face and make Smoltz look like the bad guy.
It’s a he said/he said situation. Smoltz says this, Wren says this. Obviously you believe Smoltz. Others, like me, don’t.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
It has nothing to do with believing Smoltz or not, Wren said that he’d offered as much (or more) than the Red Sox, just with a lower guarantee. The terms of the Braves offer were reported on, and they just didn’t match the Boston offer.
He lied in the press to make himself look better and Smoltz look worse.
I’m not saying that Smoltz wasn’t a brat, but I don’t know how anyone can say that Wren couldn’t have handled the situation with Smoltz better than he did, and act like it was all Smoltz’s fault.that the bridge got burned..
They were reported on? I’m sorry, I don’t recall any of that. I’m going to need some proof. And even then, it’s going to have to be from a reliable source. I’m believing the guy who actually makes the offers over reporters.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Google is your friend
The guaranteed portion of the offer provided by the Braves was in the neighborhood of $2 million. A source familiar with the offer confirmed that Smoltz’s earnings could have risen to $12 million if he’d maximized all of the incentives of the offer provided by Wren.
With Atlanta’s offer, Smoltz would have received a $1 million bonus the day he was placed on the active roster and subsequent $1 million bonuses for each 30-day period that he remained on the roster. There were also bonuses available based on appearances and accomplishments, such as Cy Young votes and an All-Star selection.
…
Obviously, to maximize the incentives offered by Wren, Smoltz would have had to remain healthy for the entire season. The Braves weren’t given reason to believe he’d be ready to pitch before June 1, which is when he’s told others that he’ll likely join Boston’s starting rotation.
Realistically Wren’s offer would have been $7 MM for a healthy and effective Smoltz, there was no reason for him to BS about what he offered and misrepresent the truth.
Did you just shoot yourself in the foot?
Let me get this straight, FW is a liar for saying:
“We were willing to pay John as much or more than the Red Sox to pitch,” Wren said early Thursday evening. “We just weren’t willing to pay him as much as the Red Sox were to not pitch.”
So Boston offered a flat $5.5 mil while Atlanta offered a base of less than $2 mil with incentives up to $12 mil (but more realisticaly $7 mil)? Or, in other words, Atlanta offered Smoltz MORE to pitch but not as much as the Red Sox to NOT pitch?
Just to be clear, had Smoltz actually signed the deal and pitched for the Braves he could have made somewhere in the neighborhood of $7 million, but by signing the offer with Boston he only made $5.5 million.
Why that no good, God Damned, Lying ass Frank Wren. He should be fired, immediately!
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
Uh, no. Boston offered a base of 5.5 MM with incentives going up to 10 MM and Boston’s incentives were easier to obtain..
The Red Sox lured Smoltz away from Atlanta with a guaranteed $5.5 million contract that includes incentives that could increase his 2009 earnings to $10 million. In other words, those $5.5 million will be gained whether or not Smoltz throws a single pitch.
Reading is fun.
Yes it is,...
now which side got this prediction right?
“The Braves weren’t given reason to believe he’d be ready to pitch before June 1, which is when he’s told others that he’ll likely join Boston’s starting rotation.”
Um, what prediction?
Smoltz: I won’t be ready to pitch until June.
Braves: We don’t think Smoltz will be ready to pitch before June.
Red Sox: We'll pay you not to pitch...
and he first started June 28. He didn’t actually pitch well until late August.
You’re the one who decided to quote the two sides saying basically the same things, and then ask who was right.
And, as I’ve already told you, how Smoltz pitched is irrelevant. I’m talking about what Wren said to the press about the deals that Smoltz was offered by the Braves and Red Sox, and how every indication from the press is that Wren was lying.
The only relevant thing is that the Braves didn’t think he had a chance of pitching before June, and still thought it was relevant to tie most of his incentive money up in being able to pitch 200 innings. Why did they even bother?
actually they aren't the same things...
pitching can mean throwing in the minors, simply getting back on the mound. He was doing that on June 1. Smoltz “told others” he’d be in Boston’s rotation at that time, which he wasn’t until much later in the month, and probably shouldn’t have been in a rotation at that time either.
And how is it lying? You must not understand the difference between guaranteed money and incentives. The bother is that if he pitched that much, he’d be worth that much. If he didn’t, and pitched like he did, he’d have been worth much much less.
Also
According to Cots this was Smoltz’s deal with Boston:
- 1 year/$5.5M (2009)
* signed by Boston as a free agent 1/13/09
* $5.5M in bonuses based on days on active 25-man roster:
o $125,000 for his first day
o $ 35,000 per day, June 1 – Oct. 3
o $500,000 for Oct. 4
* award bonuses
* $0.5M assignment bonus if traded
He would basically get an extra $4.5 MM just for being on the Red Sox roster from June 1st through the end of the season.
But remember, Wren was willing to pay him more to pitch, he said so!
And what is wrong with that?...
for a club with financial constraints, and being burned on pitching injuries the year before, we couldn’t offer Smoltz as much to be hurt than the Red Sox could. We offered him more if healthy, and if Smoltz really believed he was as healthy as he was telling everyone at the time, wouldn’t that matter? But no, he wasn’t that healthy, and took the guaranteed more if he never regained good health. And looking at his season, when he finally began, and how he pitched for the Red Sox, I’d say both he and the Braves made the right choice on that one.
And none of that is relevant to whether or not Wren lied to the press about the deal that he offered Smoltz in order to make himself look good and make Smoltz look bad.
How is he lying?...
We offered him more to pitch. The Red Sox guaranteed more if he couldn’t. Play around with numbers all you want, but if he was worth a damn last year, he’d have made more here. But he was banged up and for the most part ineffective, so he took the “guarantee”. Seems like both sides got what they wanted considering we were wanting someone who could effectively pitch, and he wanted money.
The Braves offered him a deal worth $2MM with around $8 MM in incentives, $5 MM of that only kicking in if he pitched 200 innings (not a chance in hell that is going to happen for someone who everyone knew was going to miss the first two months of the season).
The Red Sox signed him for $5.5 MM and had incentives that took him to around $11 MM, with the vast majority of those bonuses being easily obtained and paid per day he was on the active roster.
Wren did not offer him more to pitch. He offered him less. Hell, it looks like the Red Sox guaranteed money was more than he was likely to get out of the entire Braves deal even if he was an effective pitcher once he joined the roster.
Reading is fun
Again:
"We were willing to pay John as much or more than the Red Sox to pitch," Wren said early Thursday evening. "We just weren’t willing to pay him as much as the Red Sox were to not pitch."
The quote is “AS MUCH or more” which makes Wren’s statement a truth.
But remember, Wren was willing to pay him more to pitch, he said so!
Now who’s bending quotes to fit his argument?
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
Going with scstrato on this, Google is not your friend Lennox. Read what you write. 7 is more than 5.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
You realize that the$ 5 MM is just the Red Sox’s base, and that they were giving him incentives too, right?
Other sources, including the Braves CEO talk about their offer.
http://www.ajc.com/ajccars/content/printedition/2009/01/09/braves.html
"John is a great guy. He follows his own head, and I just don’t know what’s going on with him right now," Braves Chairman and CEO Terry McGuirk said today. "We’ve offered less of a guarantee, but we’ve offered a substantial guarantee. Coming off an injury like this, we feel like it’s the right thing that we should be doing (in regards to our offer).
"We’ve offered him a package that would get him in the $10 million range, if he were to pitch a full season and pitch well. For him to walk away from that and to go to another place, I’m just shocked and surprised.
"I read today in something that his agent said the other set of incentives (from the Red Sox) were "more attainable." If John Smoltz pitches like John Smoltz pitches, I think (what we offered) is attainable. If he’s not healthy, it’s not going to happen."
According to a person familiar with the situation, Smoltz would have been required to pitch 200 innings next season to reach the maximum incentives in the Braves’ offer. Incentives in the Red Sox proposal are more easily attainable.
From ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3819298):
The Braves’ offer included $2 million in base salary with $8 million in incentives. The incentives included $5 million for 200 innings/30 starts, with no prorated amount if he pitched less, such as 180 innings pitched.
I mean, seriously, why would you even put a 200 ip or bust incentive like that in to the contract of someone you know is going to miss 2 months, unless you’re just trying to put yourself in a situation where you can artificially inflate the potential value of the contract while knowing that he has no chance of reaching it?
Smoltz just got his widdle feewings hurt and cried to the media.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 6, 2009 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, it happens when most older star players break relations with their long time team. For the first time in their life they feel rejected professionally and don’t deal with it well right away.
Most GMs are smart enough to handle the situation with class, and the whole thing quickly blows over. Wren, unfortunately, has no class or idea of how to deal with the press, so he created a lingering resentment in his attempts to protect his own ego.
Do you really think it’s a coincidence that a guy like JS managed to let star players walk all the time without it turning in to a big blow up and long term hurt feelings, but Wren managed to create bad feeling and bad PR with both Glavine and Smoltz with his handling of the situation?
C'mon Lennox...
Smoltz took more guaranteed money to go to Boston. That’s an obvious fact!!! It was up to him not to “burn the bridge.” He’s the 40+ year old vet in this situation. The contract the Braves offered with incentives should have been plenty of money for the injury-prone pitcher to stay in Atlanta. Most fans will agree with me when I say that Smoltz “burned his bridge” with the fans! While, yes there are 2 sides to every story… the fans relationship with the beloved bearded wonder suffered. Smoltz is the one who should have protected that relationship.
Honestly though, I don’t think it was about the money to Smoltz. I think he really wanted a ring, and looking at the current state of the Braves at that time, he didn’t think he was gonna have a realistic shot at one more title. That’s why he signed with Boston.
Also, remember Boston gave him the big bucks to pretty much pitch the second-half of the season as well as the postseason. He would have had plenty of time to recoup from his injury and take his time coming back on his terms. With the Braves, he might have been asked to pitch opening day.
Never Ever Stop That CHOP!!!
This
Smoltz was so freaking competitive. With the Cardinals, he was constantly quoted saying things like “Give me the ball in the postseason. I don’t care. I just want the ball. I want to play.”
I can’t blame him that he wanted to play in postseason, but let’s face it, he ditched the Braves. I lost a lot of respect for Smoltz when he bailed. Wren was being smart and not throwing money away. I’m glad Smoltz is gone.
"Sometimes I wonder what'd it be like to be outside and not hear the birds chirping...I think it'd be kind of nice."
by alligatorimpersonator on Dec 7, 2009 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
I have yet to see a grown-ass vet of Smoltz’ caliber cry like he did and bad-talk an organization that bent over backwards to please him and his ego on multiple occassions.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 7, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
+1
"Sometimes I wonder what'd it be like to be outside and not hear the birds chirping...I think it'd be kind of nice."
by alligatorimpersonator on Dec 7, 2009 7:45 PM EST up reply actions
Which is because other GMs know how to handle the situation, and aren’t egotistical pricks like Wren.
lol
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 7, 2009 11:58 PM EST up reply actions
so is this conversation.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 12:10 AM EST up reply actions
I agree, I’m stating facts that show that Wren lied about what he offered Smoltz and everyone is sticking their fingers in their ears. It’s quite amusing.
The fact that you think you are the lone Capernicus here is amusing.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 8, 2009 2:10 AM EST up reply actions
Actually, it’s a he (Wren) said/He (smoltz) is still saying situation.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 6, 2009 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
Smoltz running his mouth about the organization at every opportunity has nothing to do with it?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 6, 2009 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
Bold prediction time
Here are mine:
(1) Wren waits until both Lackey signs and Roy Halladay trade happens before making deals.
(2) Lowe is successfully dumped for prospects to one of the several big budget teams not scoring Lackey or Holladay, with at least 75% of remaining millions owed to Lowe coming off the Braves’ books.
(3) Cameron and one other RH batsman are acquired.
My Bold prediction on the pitching market for 2010
Lackey goes back to the Angles
Halladay goes to Boston or New York
Lowe goes to the Nationals for a combination of the following names: NOT ALL WILL BE INCLUDED but a combination: Danny Espinosa, Jeff Kobernus, Eliah Dukes, Willingham, Michael Burgess, Aaron Thompson, Juan Jaime.
Lowe’s contact is 100% taken by the Nationals.
or
Lowe to Mets for a combination of the following: Ruben Tejada, Reese Havens, Ike Davis, Wilmer Flores, Brad Holt. Lowe’s contract is taken at 100%
These two teams will be desperate enough to bit once the pitching market becomes limited.
Rather get Strasburg.
Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.
Doubt Wren trades within the NL East, and neither of those ballparks really require a GBer.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Hate to nitpick
but I fear #1 won’t happen until late January or early Feb which puts a kink in #2 and makes #3 impossible (most FA’s will be signed well before that time).
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
What about this return for Lowe?
Juan Rivera, and either a prospect like Wood (preferably), or Conger. Ad if they want some salary relief out of it we could take back someone like Kazmir.
…are you…serious? Do you hear yourself talk?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 5, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
You do realize that Kazmir is better and cheaper than Lowe right? Juan Rivera alone would be about all we could get for Lowe and we still would have to send some money their way. All that hinges on them not resigning Lackey also.
we never had Juan Rivera. He was signed by the Yankees in 1996 then went on to the Expos then the Angels.
I know! It’s been at least 48 hours! Fire Wren for being too slow!!!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 5, 2009 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
the day after Saito, i actually expected to read something about a new trade or signing… damn u Pavlov
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Pavlov is better than Murphy!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 5, 2009 10:57 PM EST up reply actions
someone should make a fanpost about that.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 5, 2009 10:57 PM EST up reply actions
I just sneezed…maybe I should make a fanpost on why we should sneeze!
:)
"Are you tryin to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?"
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