Settling for Lowe
by gondeee on Dec 15, 2009 8:42 AM EST
in Trade News
505 comments
It looks like the long-awaited trade of Atlanta Braves starter Derek Lowe is nearly upon us. The prerequisites for a Lowe trade are about to be finalized and that could be the trigger which leads other teams to make a move to acquire Lowe.
The Boston Red Sox are on the verge of signing John Lackey for way too much money. The Phillies and Mariners and Blue Jays are playing the Napa Cap Shuffle with Cliff Lee and Roy Halladay, and the Phils want to have their cake and eat it too, so they will land Halliday regardless of the cost.
That leaves several teams, particularly the Angels, without a "top-flight" starter, and if they believe that Lowe fits that mold, then maybe they'll bite on a trade. The Mets, and specifically their fans, are also left wanting more, but not only do we not want to trade with a division rival, we don't match up well with the Mets on the trade front.
Those two teams would be the front runners for his services, but there may be another mystery team or two who could get into the bidding, especially if the Braves can eat some of Lowe's salary as they apparently indicated that they can (though that is not their preference). Lowe is essentially the next most attractive starting pitcher on the free agent or trade market this winter, and his services could come relatively cheap in terms of players a team would have to give up to get him.
For the Braves, getting rid of that contract would be a huge help, as the team must view that as somewhat of an overreaction last year to what had transpired the year before with the starting rotation. The balance on the Braves now would be to spend more money on the lineup rather than the rotation, especially with inexpensive rotation options in Jair Jurrjens and Tommy Hanson entrenched for several years.
We're still in the sit and wait mode on a possible Lowe trade, but we're certainly waiting more eagerly.
[UPDATE: 11:15]
Maybe the White Sox could be a buyer. After all they seem to be collecting a bunch of old Dodgers players who have bad contracts.
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Processing the numbers
Trading Lowe and ALL of his salary leaves us ~20.905M under the 95M budget. But lets say Liberty wants to stay around 92M and we have to eat 3M per year to get anything in return it still leaves us ~14.905M under. So I would guess that any Lowe trade should leave us with somewhere in the neighborhood of 15-21M in salary to spend on other needs. Thats not chump change people.
LOL
you guys are on drugs
Lowe is a 39 yo who pitched like a No 5 last year, in a pitchers park Kawakami was the same pitcher as Lowe, he will regress even more this year
He is making 15 mil a year…. you will need to include a prospect and lots of cash for someone to trade for Lowe
Lowe on the yankee and their stadium would be a 5+ ERA pitcher
Do you really expect anyone to want that garbage
For starters...
Lowe is 36, not 39. Other people can pick apart the rest of your post.
by FineHamAbounds on Dec 16, 2009 9:04 PM EST up reply actions
lol
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2009 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
1. No. I don’t do drugs.
2. Lowe is not 39.
3. He is indeed making $15M per year, which is about market value for a pitcher of his skill set…no prospect will be needed in addition to lots of cash for anyone to trade for him.
4. Lowe would be the 2nd best pitcher on the Yankees. ERA is not really a valid measurement
5. Yes. I do expect that someone will want Lowe, since he is the best available pitcher.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 16, 2009 11:54 PM EST up reply actions
Lowe have a ERA+ of 88
He would not make top 7 SP for the Yankee last year
Name 7 better starting pitchers on the Yankees.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 17, 2009 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
I doubt they even have 7 SPs. Unless Sabathia counts for two.
by FineHamAbounds on Dec 17, 2009 12:45 AM EST up reply actions
Details…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 17, 2009 12:54 AM EST up reply actions
Don’t feed the trolls.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
But they’re so cute!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 17, 2009 1:51 AM EST up reply actions
Ging by your numbers, bring in Rivera; sign Beltre (12 il, 3/4 years) and move Chipper to 1B. You’ve added 50/60 HRs, a GG at 3B and stayed within those numbers.
Chipper's unwilling to move to 1st...
and probably would not be a good option there.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 15, 2009 10:04 AM EST up reply actions
Gotta love how people continue to bring that up after it’s been shot down dozens of times.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 15, 2009 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
The last heard from Chipper, and it was on their web site, he would prefer not to move to 1B but would do what ever it took to help the team. I don’t know who has been doing the shooting, but they missed.
Why would you want a guy with bad knees, ankles, quads, hammys and pretty much anything else below his waist playing 1B? He would be not only a massive injury risk there, but probably somewhat of a butcher.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
Playing 1B is MUCH harder on your feet and legs than playing 3B. I would rather have Chipper more often at third than less often at 1B.
Also, it is MUCH easier to find a nice bat at 1B than it is to 3B and if you find a nice one at 3B then you are going to pay a premium for it. Putting Chipper at 1B just makes it that much harder for us to find an impact bat. Case in point: in a year or so when Freeman comes up and can only play 1B what are you going to do with Chipper? Just leave Chipper at third and play a bat at 1B.
I’ve played both positions and found 1B, IMHO, the easier position by far. I doubt you’d find too many who have played the positions to agree with you.
Skill-wise, it is easier. Wear and tear on you body is not dependant on skill though. Chipper has bad legs top to bottom. Can you imagine what the stress of stretching on every play would do to them???
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
Chipper has plantar something or another in his foot. His other continual injury is his rib cage where he is pulling muscles from swinging so hard. Don’t know that playing 1B would have any effect on that. The plantar is like running on golf balls (according to Chipper) and nothing can be done except special shoes. I have no way of checking, but I would think that physical injury is much more likey at 3B. Diving after balls, running to back up the SS, making long throws on the run, charging bunt and making long throws.
Those aren’t his only problems. He has had torn quads, pulled hammy’s, sprained knees/ankles etc all over the past 2-3 years.
Also, let’s not forget his wrist injury.
I don’t see how moving him to a position where he is far more likely to put wear and tear on his body is a smart move.
Chipper just played the most games last season of any Brave. Why change that? He is finally (relatively speaking) healthy. The last thing this team needs is for Chipper to be hurt on a stretch at 1B or in a violent collision with someone trying to beat out an IF hit.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
Nope. They never do that. They only have to stand there and catch.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
That's what Ryan Klesko always did, anyhow.
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Dec 15, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
ZING!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
I miss that guy…remind me again of why we let him go?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
Cause after he hit 34 dingers in Fulton County Stadium in '96
We moved him somewhere where he was staring at a goddamn 390 foot power alley.
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Dec 15, 2009 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
haha
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 15, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
i just finished my first semester of law school… so i got ur back if u need it
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Semester 2 of 1L is looming… Here’s some unsolicited advice, adderall. Find a doc who’ll justify the scrip, it’ll save your ass over and over.
"Four of us wolves, running around the desert together in Las Vegas, looking for strippers and cocaine..."
Or, if you're like me...
say f* it. Our grade was based for the most part entirely on the final. Pay attention in class thoughout the semester, find a strong outline and hit that hard for a couple nights before the final, and enjoy. I was surprised how easy law school was as a psuedo-illiterate.
Stupid look on my face aside, that big bear arm around my shoulder gave me a tingle.
"Matt Diaz is a baseball player."-Joe Simpson
Were you yawning?
During one of (if not the single) most exciting moment of your fandom?
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
no, i was giving the camera operator instructions, but she would have none of it.
"Matt Diaz is a baseball player."-Joe Simpson
BWAHAHAHAHA!
That was hilarious dude. I literally LOL’d.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
haha
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 15, 2009 4:49 PM EST up reply actions
2nd day in a row
that picture has me cracking up.
Its very rare that a 1b backs up a 2B. He’s moving to 1B on most plays to the right side. The 3B is moving on nearly every play to the left side including running behind the SS on every play to him. Given that, in general terms there are more balls hit to LF than RF, the 3B would be running more. On bunts, given that most pitchers are RH, they are moving toward the 1B side with their follow through and field many bunts in that dirction. The 3B is pretty much on his own with bunts down the 3B line.
A first baseman is moving on every ball hit to the outfield, regardless of which side. Among his other responsibilities he is the cut man in the middle of the diamond. Watch the game much?
by Mountngrown on Dec 16, 2009 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
At what level?
Little league, high school, college? It sound so trite, but it really matters, because so many kids start off being solid pull hitters, and lefties are still the minority, so it’s safe to assume that the majority of children are mashing baseballs towards third-base, and 1B is pretty much being a stationary target for putouts.
The higher level you go, the more you’d run into opposite-field hitters and switch-hitters or converted lefty batters, and suddenly, it’s not quite so easy to be manning 1B when you’ve got to concern yourself with fielding.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
I always found it interesting that a good number of 3B get moved to 1B late in their careers. Mike Schmidt comes to mind. Why do you think they do that? I don’t recall any 1B being moved to 3B to extend their careers.
Sc hmidt moved to 1B for one year, then promptly made the move back to 3B and won an MVP.
And you don’t see players move from 1B because 3B requires a solid throwing arm, if a player is a 1B for most of his career, the the odds are that he doesn’t have the arm to make a move across the diamond.
My point is that a number of hitters over the years, have ended up at 1B to keep their bats in the line up and extend their careers. I’ve never heard of someone being moved to 3B to expend their careers other than maybe a SS.
Lots of middle infielders get moved to 3B as they lose range.
Johnny Bench ended his career as a thrid baseman.
First Base is an easier position to learn because you don’t have to worry about learning to make throws across the diamond, that doesn’t mean that, outside of the arm, it’s an easier position on the body or that the physical requirements are less.
because 1B is a different skill set...
if they could mash and play 3rd, they’d already be there. But guys with no arm (Bagwell) move across, lefties because of the throwing angle, those guys are at 1B because their skills are unsuitable for 3rd.
Most first basemen don't move to third...
…because most first basemen are left handed. At least a disproportionate amount. And left-handers generally cannot be third basemen, shortstops or second basemen because they would have to throw the wrong way across their body. There are other reasons as well, but most first basemen don’t even have the possibility.
Sometimes necessity
Sometimes, proverbial handcuffs because a team is in the AL, and already has a DH, or a team in the NL and has nowhere else to stick a player, and goes with the notion to keep power in the corners, and defense up the middle.
Miguel Cabrera got fat and immobile and handcuffed the Tigers to move him to 1B where possibly fewer baseballs will hit to the right side than the hot corner, and they already had a DH.
Nomar moved to 1B out of necessity for the Dodgers in 2007, because there was nowhere else to put him, but as soon as James Loney emerged in 2008, he was moved to 3B.
But neither example is really my point, I just wanted to know what actual level of experience you had playing 1B and 3B, so I could tell myself how much weight to give your opinion.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
I played many years ago in HS and college before a medical problem intervened. Thats irrelvent to how much weight to give my opinion. I value your opinion if you give me facts or circumstances to back it up. The other gentleman feels his opinion is more valid simply because he says so. I did spend many years coaching 16-18 year old level and probably learned more there than playing.
Don't take it personally
All I asked was your actual experience, nothing else. Believe it or not, I like to kind of get to know other users backgrounds and interests.
Personally, I don’t like the move to Chipper to 1B, regardless of the notion that it’s an easier position (that I agree with), because it’s still one that Chipper’s never played on a professional level, and regardless of difficulty, there is always a learning curve and it’s lumps. But regardless, it’s moot, because Troy Glaus is not exactly an upgrade at 3B, and Adrian Beltre is likely to cost more than he’ll expect to get from Atlanta.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me. Even its just to say, “I think I it would be a better idea too…” I don’t like my opinion being called into question as if Im not too bright. I didn’t say its the ideal move just another option. I ran an organization and found that rather than good/bad ideas, you had options. Sometimes several options with no real good way of seeing the long term results of any of them. You did your research, asked the experts and then made a call. Beltre stuck me because we have few long term options at 3B. Having a GG, 25/30 HR guy there for 3/4 years seems a reasonable suggestion. We might have more options by then other than Hicks or moving Yunel there and finding a SS.
So why not move Beltre to 1B until Chipper retires? That is also an option.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
At moment, Beltre is the better defensive player, possibly by consderable. He has won a GG and has been high on the list a number of times. I prefer my better defender at 3B than 1B.
But, it is an option, right?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
Every move is an option. We could consider moving Mac to 1B and put Ross behind the plate. We could put DIaz in CF and McLouth in LF but I would prefer my better defensive player in CF. Why don’t you just let it go. If you don’t like my suggestion, I can live with it. IF you think your opinion has more value than mine, so be it; I’ll still sleep well tonight.
Reflexes and Reaction
3B is almost entirely a reactionary position. Most balls hit that way, whether from LH or RH hitters, are typically smoked. As a player gets older his reaction and relexes slow. The glove may still be as solid as ever but the player finds himself unable to react fast enoung to get to the batted balls. Thus a move to 1B can, for some players, extend their playing careers.
by Mountngrown on Dec 16, 2009 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
Yes. The logic is that Chipper is less likely to get hurt at 3B. A hurt Chipper at 1B with bad defense is worse than a healthy Chipper at 3B with bad defense.
I fail to see how you can’t see the logic in that.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
A hurt Chipper is worse than a healthy Chipper at either position. Why are you assuming he will be healthy at 3B when history shows that to be a fallacy. We have no idea how healthy he will be at 1B. Again, your logic escapes me.
He stands a much greater chance of pulling something when he is stretching on every play.
The odds of Chipper getting hurt at 1B are so far and away more than at 3B that this is really starting to become annoying.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
You don’t stretch every play! Just when its close and you know when to do that. Give me something to back your opinion, else we just disagree. All you said that in your opinion its harder. Don’t know why yours should mean more than mine.
lol
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
I just posted above about a number of 3B being moved to 1B to expend their careers. I don’t recall a 1B ever being moved to 3b? Do you know of one?
You named 1, not a number.
Also, what does that have to do with anything?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
He cuts my workload in half, at the very least.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 15, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
this is like the classic enemies become friends lifetime movie…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
It’s like when Stone Cold Steve Austin and HHH hated each others guts but found out they were a really good tag team.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
Haha, yup. Now where is Joe to add in his $0.02 now that a wrestling comment was made…
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 15, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
Awww, come on! Why can’t we be the Rock and Sock connection???
I guess if you include BigJoe, we could be Rock, Sock and BigShow or Undertaker. They all teamed up to defeat the dynasty that was Triple H, D-Generation X and I forget the other dude…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
I get to be The Rock.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 15, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
No…it was my idea, I am the rock!
You can be Mick Foley.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
Absolutely not. You can be Mark Henry.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 15, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
lol
I think this is my favorite thing I’ve ever seen you say
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
I’ll take that as a sign that I’m back to mid-season form.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 15, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
Better to be Mark Henry than Viscera
I thought hurricane season was over........
by bravesguy311 on Dec 15, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
Enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of deal.
But honestly, you did want Patterson to lead off for us. The initially hatred was fully deserved.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 15, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
Hell no I did not!
I NEVER voted for Patterson.
How DARE you make that accusation?
*Sharpens sword…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
Damn, you’re right…that was someone else. Then why did I hate you so much?
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 15, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
Right.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 15, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
I didn’t want Dunn…at least, not hitting cleanup.
I have since recanted and changed my ways – OBP all the way!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
I'd love Dunn hitting anywhere...
…in the Braves lineup. I just would be afraid of him in the field—anywhere in the field. Despite playing the two least demanding positions last year, Dunn somehow managed to ring up a -36.something UZR. That’s practically impossible; although I watched enough to understand it. For comparison, FUGA clocked in at -11.something. When all is said and Dunn (sorry, couldn’t help it), Dunn may rank as the worst fielder in the past 50 years.
That was me, and I never said that I wanted Patterson to lead off for us. The arguement was if Patterson and Dunn were on the same team where would they bat in the lineup. I said Patterson would be lead off because of his speed, and you said Dunn’s OBP would be better at the top of the lineup. Trust me, I didn’t want Patterson OR Dunn on this team last year. I’ve since changed my views, and I’m really upset that the Mariners signed Patterson (I wish we could have 3 of him)…
Basically we argued about that for 7-8 hours, and I’ve been hooked on TC ever since…
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Dec 15, 2009 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
Haha, nice.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 15, 2009 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
It’s a slow day at work. What else am I going to do?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
Pete Rose ended up at 1B as did Nomar (from SS to 3B to 1B as his career moved). I’ve at least named someone. A number corner OFers end up at 1B to keep their bats in the line up as they loose foot speed.
I don’t understand what you are trying to prove. We are not debating whether or not 3B can move to 1B more easily than a 1B can move to 3B.
We are debating whether or not Chipper will move to 1B, and I guarantee you he wont.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
I merely offered it as one of several solutions available. You chose to make an issue of it and begin this debate. I expressed an opinion and you took exception to it. I tried to show that your opinion wasn’t the only one available and not necessarily written in granite. You seem to feel that your opinion should be valued more than others on this forum. Don’t think thats the case. I’m still waiting for a name of someone moved to 3B to exptend their career.
I’m still waiting for you to tell me why that matters…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
Also, I am the 3rd person who replied to your initial post and I gave a reason as to why I thought it was a bad idea. You offered your reason why it was a good idea, and I countered that.
This isn’t a pissing contest here, and I am not trying to make it one.
You say that your idea is just one of several possible ones, but I have shown you that it is not possible, nor will it happen. It isn’t that I think my opinion counts more (believe me, I have been wrong PLENTY of times around here), but when all the evidence points to one certain argument over another, you gotta believe that perhaps there may be a right answer in this situation.
You have nothing other than “I think it would be a good idea even though it is probably not going to happen and Chipper said he doesn’t want to do it.”
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
Gotta buy my lottery tifckets tonight, can I borrow your crystal ball? You have no more idea of what will happen any more than I do. When you are running an organization, there are options more than good/bad ideas. Every option has it place. Is this likely to happen? Probably not. Nor is signing Bay/Holliday; or paying LaRoche 30 mil for three years; or getting a big time bat for Lowe. But they are all options.
Some options should be considered a lot more than others. Moving Chipper to 1B is not one of them.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
apparently, in the opinion of the large majority of this particular thread too, as well as in Chipper’s and so far, in the Brave’s management’s.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
I doubt 2/3 other posters consitutes a large majority of this forum. I really doubt that many have considered the idea. Besides, this is not likely to have any effect on the Braves FO. Wren hasn’t called me for weeks for my opinion.
I have Wren on speed dial #1…he never answers though.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
By my count, I have 8 “Nays” and 1 “Yea”.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
I’ll add a nay.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
This is the first time you and I have agreed on something in a while!
SUCCESS!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
First time you’ve made sense in a while…
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
I'm #12!
Sorry it’s so late.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 17, 2009 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
Ok…you don’t stretch on EVERY play.
But, would you please admit that you stretch yourself more at 1B than at 3B?
Can you admit that a 1B is involved in far more plays and collisions than a 3B is?
Can you admit that putting someone at 1B with a history of injuries to their lower body is probably not a good idea?
Can you admit that moving Chipper to 1B is about 100% guaranteed not to happen?
Can you admit that Chipper said he doesn’t want to move to 1B?
Can you admit that moving Chipper to 1B and a GG fielder to 3B is not as much of an upgrade as leaving Chipper at 3B and signing a GG-caliber 1B?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
Let's see.
I agree with:
Chipper is not going to move to 1B.
That Chipper doesn’t want to move to 1B.
And that we will more likely upgrade by signing a 1B (because third baseman have more of a positional premium).
Not sure about the injury stuff—-a decent first baseman doesn’t get into many or any collisions, and first base is considered one of the least taxing positions. Not sure how the positions compare with the specific injuries Chipper has had. They are involved in more plays, but most of it is just routine standing on the bag and catching a decent throw on a routine grounder.
Oh
shut up will ya…
Your arguement is moot and illogical.
Note: Chipper was relatively healthy last year and had a down year offensively. But in previous years, when he was hurt frequently, Chipper excelled offensively. Therefore, a hurt Chipper anywhere is better then a healthy one!
You are the clear winner here.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 16, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
This is why Chipper is my favorite player. Consummate team player, Brave to the bone, great guy…oh yeah, and a first ballot hall of famer.
by soup du jour on Dec 15, 2009 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
If you are on the fence
about the Lee/Roy trade, head on over to thegoodphight and read their comments. They know the players involved better than most, and almost all of them hate this trade.
I, for one, love it.
Trade for Rivera, sign Glaus and Nady for 2 mil each (they’ll sign cheap and fill bench/1st base holes) and go beat those stupid phuckers!
by Kelly's Big Johnson on Dec 15, 2009 8:55 AM EST via mobile reply actions
First of all, Philly fans never know what’s good for them. Even though they would be trading one ace for another, and Cliff Lee did perform at an MVP level for the Phils in the postseason, I still regard Halladay as an upgrade over Lee. I mean who would you rather have? Roy’s stuff is just filthy and I am not looking forward to watching him pwn the Braves for the next 4-5 years.
Secondly, I really don’t see Nady signing for only 2 million dollars. Injuries or no.
Their Tex trade...
In 3 years, they will look back on this like their Tex trade. If you factor in that they gave up 4 good prospects for Lee, then 3 more top prospects for Roy… wow. That is 7 prospects you gave up to get 3 years of Roy @ 20M per. They are receiving back bullpen help, but damn.
What they are paying in the difference in prospects and money for the marginal upgrade of Roy over Lee is a waste of resources.
THAT is why this trade is a win for the ATL.
by Kelly's Big Johnson on Dec 15, 2009 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, in that regard, assuming those prospects given up come to fruition, then it will be a win for the Braves in the long term. But the Phillies are kind of like the Yankees now and can afford to trade prospects away as long as they continue to shell out for big contracts. But still, in the short term I see it as a win for Philadelphia. Lee really surprised me with his performance in Philly, as I was really worried about his performance immediately following his Cy Young season.
The really sad thing...
…is that the Phillies’s system is so stacked with talent that they have plenty of prospects left and have not had to give up their best prospect in any of the trades.
Depends...
does the package given for Lee trump the return?
The bad part of the Tex deal is without the post season appearance, we got Kotchman/LaRoche (with no picks) and Marek for Feliz, Andrus, Salty, Harrison, and Jones.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 15, 2009 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
As a 19 year old for Rome in 2006 Jones was 5-5 with a 5.61 ERA, 1.88 WHIP, 10.2 H/9, 6.8 BB/9, and 8.2 K/9 in 110.2 IP.
As a 19 year old for Rome in 2009 DeVall was 4-4 with a 3.52 ERA, 1.19 WHIP, 8.4 H/9, 2.3 BB/9, and 6.9 K/9 in 53.2 IP.
Even considering the injury knocks him back a little, DeVall is still clearly a better prospect at the same age. And he’s got 2 inches and 20 pounds on Jones, meaning he’s likely to develop well and increase his durability and power.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Meaning they're are both minor leaguers...
I agree on the differing prospect level. Harrison is more comparable, but he’s already made the show and had some good games there.
If that was your meaning you should have just said he was still a prospect and a long ways from panning out. Directly comparing him to a guy he’s already better than was misleading.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
my mistake...
and I was comparing them as far as value to both clubs. So far, they’ve been minor league pitchers, no more and no less. Without knowing an “official” report on Devall’s injury, it’s kind of hard to say what level prospect he is anyway.
The official report is he’s going to be good to go in ST, so his prospect status should be high, like it was before he had the issues this summer.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
I saw someone post that here...
has there been anything more, something with quotes from Wren, Devall, or someone a part of the organization? Did I miss it?
I don’t know about that but I did also read it in Chop Talk magazine, which is basically a mouthpiece for the organization. If they reported it, it’s basically the official word from Atlanta.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Sadly, we should have turned that into another draft pick at least, but we didn’t offer arb to Adam…does this (other than Marek) mean the end of the pedigree of the Tex trade?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 16, 2009 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
Marek and DeVall.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
We got DeVall for the comp pick from Mahay, right?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 16, 2009 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
I think they got...
…a bag of magic beans back from the Mariners. Aumont has already been moved to the bullpen due to injury problems and is no longer the prospect he was once thought to be. The other two have upside but are pretty raw. I think the Mariners got a steal and the two draft picks they get when Lee leaves after a year will be as good as the guys they gave up.
Yup.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 15, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
i nomintate u for most offensive/awesome name ever
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Thanks!
Kelly may be gone, but Kelly’s Big Johnson will always be a Brave!
by Kelly's Big Johnson on Dec 15, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions
Fox seems to think that the Angels could offer Rivera. Again, this is from Fox, and I don’t hold much stock in anything they say.
I think Rivera would be a nice fit for Atlanta. The guy can hit and doesn’t strike out much.
Fox Article New window.
Don't want to go into this too much
But if we can get Rivera, straight up, no cash eaten, its one hell of a deal for us. Now that we have the most valuable available pitcher on the market it could be very well doable.
I’m not sure what’s so appealing about Rivera. Looking at his career stats, he seems pretty similar to Jeff Francoeur: poor on base skills and only one big power year. I guess if he was used as part of a platoon with Schafer or Heyward he could be okay.
Yeah, I’m not sure why everyone is so enamored with Rivera. However, his defense is pretty good so don’t forget about that.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 15, 2009 9:44 AM EST up reply actions
plus
is there a chance we actually get something better than that back (assuming the angels eat all of lowe’s salary)?
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
cheap, corner OF, right handed slugger...
would fit well in right or left and with our younger players. Why would we want that?
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 15, 2009 10:05 AM EST up reply actions
I’m not that enamored with him. He’s at least better than many of the other alternatives I keep hearing about like Nady, who can’t stay healthy, Cameron, who strikes out a ton, etc.
I don’t see how the trade would work out unless the Braves sent money the Angels way. I just think he’d be a good fit. Yeah, he doesn’t walk much, but he’s show that he can hit for a good average, has some pop and doesn’t strike out much. I don’t know about his defense though.
And at least I am not saying we have a chance at getting someone who we have absolutely no chance at getting like Morales.
I agree with most of that...
…except that Rivera, not counting salary, is not better than Cameron. Hitting-wise they are similar (Cameron strikes out more, but also walks more, and the power is similar) but while Rivera is a decent LF, Cameron is a good CF, and that makes him more valuable. Cameron, however, is no longer an option. I am okay with Rivera given the options, but I think, like you do, that we would have to throw in cash to get it done.
My guess is that most people had set their expectations to that if we dumped his salary then we did good…to get anything at all back that can help our current team is a plus. Me included.
That being said, Rivera alone is average to possibly slightly above. I think if Wren thinks that he’s the solution then Wren is kidding himself; I would want him to get a 1B. However, Rivera I like as a complimentary piece to a strong 1B. Where we’ll get one who knows, but it still stands.
by soup du jour on Dec 15, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
um no
Juan Rivera has never struck out at the same rate as FYF in the majors. Last season in 529 PA’s he struck out 57 times and walked 36 times.
THAT is something that would be great in our line up. He could really blossom and give us 25-30 HR’s next year hitting between Chip and Mac
by drumzalicious on Dec 15, 2009 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
Also
Other than FA signings, I’d like to see alot of that extra wiggle room go towards extentions for Escobar, Jurrjens and Vazquez. Offer Vaz something around 3/30 (see if hell take a discount) and deals mirroring the one Mac got to Escobar and Jurrjens so something like a 1-2M bonus, raise to 0.8 this year and then buy out the three arbi years + one FA + an option on the other. I would rather us lock up our own guys than go out and spend on outsiders.
+1
I’d really like to see us lock up Esco. Jurrjens isn’t a huge importance right now because he’ll still be cheaper than what he’s worth over the next couple years. If Javy can pitch like he did last year than we really need to do whatever we can to keep him from hitting free agency. But it’s a bit of a risk considering how much of an anomaly last year’s numbers were compared to his career splits.
6 more years actually
And he won’t even be arbitration eligible for another 3. That was the whole point of keeping him in AAA as long as we did…limiting his service time so 2009 didn’t even really count as a year of team control and so he wouldn’t qualify for super 2 status after the 2011 season.
Juan Rivera for Lowe
would be a steal, IMHO.
we could then save some serious cash and lock up a few guys like bbxxj suggests or we could get a Glaus/Nady combo or we could jump feet first into a AGon trade.
a lineup of
Diaz – RF
Prado – 2B
Chip – 3B
AGon – 1B
Rivera – LF
BMac – C
Escoabr – SS
McLouth – CF
Pitcher
with a rotation of
Vaz
JJ
Hanson
Hudson
Medlen/Reyes/someone
wins the East even IF the Phils get Halladay.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Dec 15, 2009 9:14 AM EST reply actions
but i highly doubt
we have the pieces for AGon (or would give them up)
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Dec 15, 2009 9:14 AM EST up reply actions
Two years of AGON is NOT worth what we would have to give up. However if we get Rivera we could afford to take the high reward but high injury risk signing that is Glaus.
by bbxxj on Dec 15, 2009 9:16 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
especially if you balance Glaus...
with Nady or another who can help if he can’t get it done or gets reinjured.
Garko is an interesting possibility...
…and Gomes would be a fine bench bad, but he is really bad in the field. I am not particularly enamored with Nady, but a guy who can decently field both OF and 1B would be useful—-could keep RF warm for Heyward for a couple months and then be there in case Glaus goes down.
Why isn't he?
Even though Gonzalez only has 2 years left on his current contract, his contract is very, very club friendly. He’ll be only making 4.75 mil in 2010 and a 5.5 mil club option in 2011. So once the Braves trade Lowe they could actually extend Gonzalez if they wanted to so he IS worth trading for.
Ok and.......
We traded for Tex mid-season and his agent was Scott Boras who rejected a 7 yr/140 mil contract with the Rangers for Tex. I can almost guarantee that if the Braves were to offer Gonzalez 7 yr/140 mil he’d gladly accept.
But AGon isn’t Tex and we wouldn’t offer him that. It’s still a big risk to make a trade like that without having an agreement in hand for an extension. Otherwise you have to assume that you’re just getting a loan.
A two year loan is nice.
But the million dollar (okay many millions of dollars) question is the price San Diego would ask. I would love an AGonz deal for the right price, but without knowing what San Diego would demand, there is no way to know whether a deal would be good.
I have said it once before and ill say it agian… AGonz is a stud and worth every penny. and for the record; a trade mid season is a loan, a player of his stature signed for two years at 10mil COMBINED for both years is the real deal. Dont get ahead of yourself by looking to far down the road. We play to win the game now with a crossed eye for the future. Besides Heyward, none of our prospects should be untouchable. They are prospects not guarantees. A guarantee is that AGonz will make the Braves a much more potent and fearfull lineup!
I agree completely.
However, I suspect, as others here have noted, that San Diego would insist on getting either Heyward or Hanson in any AGonz deal. Not so thrilled about that. I understand San Diego’s thinking, and it makes sense from their perspective to insist on a big return. That’s why I don’t think it will happen.
I’m not sure if I’m for or against trading for AGon, but the fact that the Red Sox aren’t able to work out a deal makes me think that the Padres are asking for something ridiculous
Like with all things, especially trades...
Adrian Gonzalez depends on the price tag, and I think it’d be greater than what we’d be needing to pay.
Can Rivera play 1B?
If not, I am not sure how getting him mitigates the risk of Glaus. If Glaus goes down, someone has to play 1B.
Medlen/Reyes/someone
Don’t you mean Kawakami?
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
hmm
The only way i would be ok with us trading for AGonz is if it was a situation similar to Halladay where an extension was in place before hand because we would have to give up Freeman. The only thing that would make me feel comfortable with that is if we had A-Gonz for the same amount of time that Freeman would have been here. So at the least a 4 year extension.
If he would take a deal at 5yrs/90mil or basically 18mil a year with two option years afterwards I would do the deal.
However to get it done im pretty sure we would have to trade a pitcher or two in there as well.
So we would prob be looking at:
Freeman
Medlen
Adam Milligan
2 Minor League pitchers not named Teheran
The only thing is even still we could prob get slightly lower production from Freeman as he develops at a MUCH cheaper price. Instead of 40-50 HR’s we would most likely see 25-35 HR’s, slightly higher average and more 2B’s
by drumzalicious on Dec 15, 2009 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
If we can get AGonz for that package we do it in a heartbeat.
For two years of great at a very reasonable price, it is worth six years of control of a guy who could be great, could be decent, could turn into Casey Kotchman, could be slow to develop, or could be a total bust. I would have no problem giving up Medlen (good, but extra for us), Milligan (not that great a prospect anyway) and even Teheran (pitchers that young have incredible risk). It doesn’t matter, however, as San Diego will want more than that.
TINSTAAP
Teheran is young and looks great, but he hasn’t gotten above A-ball. Too many things could happen before he is a productive major leaguer for us to stop a trade for a cheap proven commodity because of him.
I'd hold on to Teheran...
for fear of him and Feliz floating out there in 6 or 7 years dominating. Frankly, I don’t think we’re trading prospects anyway. There are enough free agents to fill the holes we can’t through Lowe, until Heyward, Schafer, and Freeman arrive.
All great comments! I would love a Lowe Riveria swap with LAA and I second a cheap signing of both Glaus an Nady and using what’s leftover to extend what we already have! Let’s hope it plays out like this!
HansonManCrush
by HansonManCrush on Dec 15, 2009 9:17 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Not big on Rivera
His last 3 seasons only last year was really above replacement level. We need someone(s) with power who sees alot of pitches in the middle of the lineup, or we aren’t gettin past 85-86 wins even with our pitching.
by Sid Bream's Moustache on Dec 15, 2009 9:32 AM EST reply actions
you arent going to get an impact bat back for Lowe
"If I have asthma, they won't let me scuba. And if I can’t scuba, then what’s this all been about?? What am I working toward??"
His last three seasons include one where he missed almost the enitre year due to a WBC injury, one where he got sporadic playing time due to the number of OFers the Halos have. And one where he got regular playing time and had a good season.
Thanks, I was wondering about his PT issues.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 15, 2009 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
I’m OK with the Juan Rivera trade as long as we get his brother, Jupillo.
by McCann and McWill on Dec 15, 2009 9:54 AM EST reply actions
Can we just have Jupillo?
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Dec 15, 2009 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
THIS.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 17, 2009 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
Hate to be the "ever" pessimist
But D Lowe will not land us Juan Rivera. At best LA is likely to offer a mid-range minor leaguer or two (depending on how much salary we eat). Remember, they have their own “bad” contract to move in Gary Matthews Jr. and having already lost Figgins and Guerrero I seriously doubt they’ll go into 2010 with Matthews in LF and Wood at 3B. Rivera will be their opening day starter in LF and if they can move Matthews they’ll likely sign some insurance at 3b, if not they’ll go with Wood and eat another year of Matthews as their bench player/4th OF.
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
who doesnt want a guy with a 730 OPS and is a poor CF for the reasonable price of 11.5M…
remember the rule Angels… don’t trade for a guy who had his best year in a contract year whilst playing for TX
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
do not eat one penny of Lowe's salary
There will be competition for Lowe now, as he is the most established starter left out there. The Angels have Matsui now and would like to unload Rivera’s deal, no doubt.
I do like the idea of spending any part of Lowe’s salary left in the budget after paying Rivera on extensions for our young players.
People who rosterbate about Adrian Gonzalez have no idea about budgeting. Our plan at 1B is Freddy Freeman and only Freddy Freeman at 1B beginning in 2011 at the latest. His minimum wage will make it possible to keep Brian McCann around, just as Jason Heyward’s low salary and high productivity can get us through a a couple of years of deals like Vasquez’, Hudson’s, and KK’s until we can develop another young top young all-star starter caliber starter to go with Hanson and Jurrjens.
You have to think of the Braves as middle market bargain hunters now, because TBS has become a comedy channel and we no longer have a national basic cable showcase better than any other team. Plus Liberty will unload the team in a couple of years as soon as another tax loophole deal comes their way, and they will want to minimize cost commitments to make the team more attractive to more buyers.
YES
but what has Freeman done above A?
AGon is a Lefuckingit bat in the middle of any lineup. in ours, he might hit .306/.440/1.125 FOR THE YEAR. (those are bonds’ numbers for 2000).
you can’t tell me that the budget doesn’t allot for THAT.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Dec 15, 2009 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
?
You shouldn’t believe everything you read. Competition for Lowe? The most competition I can come up with is one or two teams at most. Still, it is possible that we move Lowe without having to eat money, but I think it’s unlikely.
As for the Angels looking to “unload” Rivera’s contract … that makes absolutely no sense. What is there to “unload”? The guy basically provided anywhere from $10mil to $15mil of production in 2009 (depending on which defensive metric you prefer) while being paid a paltry $3.25mil. Teams don’t “unload” players who are providing them with value, they “unload” players who’s value is even or approaching even. Let me take this one step farther. Let’s say Rivera over performed this year and his value to the team is more realistically in the $5mil to $8mil range per season. He’s under contract for 2 more years at a total of $9.5mil (that’s $4.25mil in ‘10 and $5.25mil in ’11). So even if he is an average player over the next two years he’s worth his contract and now that he is healthy he’s shown he’s worth a whole lot more.
Matsui is a full time DH (won’t be playing the field at all), Hunter is entrenched in CF and Abreu in RF. So their choices are Rivera or Matthews in LF. Which would you rather have; Matthews and his ridiculous salary and non-existent offense or Rivera and his cheap salary and above average offense?
So what am I missing here that makes LAA want to move Rivera so badly?
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
by scstrato on Dec 15, 2009 11:05 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Rivera
The reason the Angels would need to unload Rivera (or the unmarketable Matthews) is Lowe’s costly deal.
Rivera will turn 32 this year, and 2009 was his first 100 games season since 2006. Even in his atypical 2009 season, he hit .only 271/.313/.418 vs RHPs last year. Like Diaz, most of his productivity comes against lefties. But Rivera’s deal is 2010: $4.25 million and 2011: $5.25 million as opposed to Matty’s $2.55.
As soon as Heyward is ready, IMHO opening day, Diaz moves back to left field. Rivera’s a better left fielder, but Diaz can’t play first and Rivera only played one game there.
The other option is cash, and I don’t think the Braves should do that. If the Angels are unwilling to part with Rivera (or deal him to the Mets or someone), the Angels package for Lowe could include LF Terry Evans, a Georgia native and older minor leaguer who had a good year in AAA last season.
think Rivera would be tough to move at that price?...
or maybe they move for an IF? Just cause we are fixated on Rivera doesn’t mean that’s who it’ll be.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 15, 2009 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
The reason the Angels would need to unload Rivera (or the unmarketable Matthews) is Lowe’s costly deal.
Are you suggesting the Angels would need to unload Rivera because they trade for Lowe?
by hoboken_wood on Dec 15, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
Ugh
Matty D’s contract has nothing to do with the situation. The question is whether LAA can “afford” that whopping $4.25mil ’10 and $5.25mil ’11 for Rivera. Some food for thought:
Lackey – $10mil ’09 / Gone
Figgins – $5.75mil ’09 / Gone
Guerrero – $15mil ’09 / Gone
That’s about $30 mil off the books. They’re not hurting for Cash to pay player salaries, especially for players who provided somewhere in the neighborhood of $10mil surplus!
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
Angels reasons to unload Rivera
If the were to acquire Lowe (15) , having already acquired Matsu (6.5)i, being stuck with Mathews (11), and with obligations to Kazmir (8, ’11: 12) plus about seven arbitration type increases looming, they will have only around $8-10m tops to play around with, if Moreno steps up. This I calculate from this late 2009 forecast:
http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2009/10/los_angeles_ang.php
. Here are their obligations:
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/los-angeles-angels-of-anaheim.html
This is a team with a real need for starting pitching, and Lowe is what’s left of the top caliber guys. They need to replace Figgins and would like to upgrade Rivera, having looked at Bay until that got out of hand. I think they want Rivera less than the Mets do, and will unload him there if not to us. These four and five million dollar obligations add up, that’s what teams (like the Braves) are realizing, and when you’re stuck with a Mathews contract they will want to unload Rivera because they fear he’ll get hurt or deteriorate adding additional waste. They have built his value up with a good season and now that salary increases and age are before him, they could well want to sell high. In effect they’d be getting the Braves to repay part of Lowe’s deal by taking on Rivera’s contract.
But the Braves look at him and see a real expense, and some duplication with Diaz’ talents for far more in financial obligations. Older minor leaguers or distant prospects (i.e. a truer salary dump) may appeal to the Braves more. But just like last year I think the Braves will want to add power in the OF and will be willing to spend around what Rivera gets.
You see a lot of people spending Liberty’s money on these boards, but just remember ours is the team that begrudged Adam LaRoche a million or two extra via a one-year salary arbitration, even after his strong 2009 performance. In the real world, every million counts.
Every million counts, all 45 of them
They may not “fear” keeping Rivera. Regardless, they would now have another hole in their lineup.
Think of it another way...
Matthews sucks so that’s a sunken cost regardless. Now, you can ship off a relatively low priced Rivera for Lowe, and maybe that works. But then you still need to sign a corner OF to replace Rivera, and can you find a comparable player in skill and price? Doubtful.
Because I think they value Lowe + Matthews over Rivera + average FA pitcher.
by soup du jour on Dec 15, 2009 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
If so, they clearly don't understand...
…exactly how bad Matthews is.
Haha, true…although they were the ones that signed them to the contract in the first place.
by soup du jour on Dec 15, 2009 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
maybe they (or the Braves) will give this guy a shot in left
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/Players/E/Terry-Evans.shtml
He is on the Angels roster, and collects the minimum MLB wage.
That all depends on how desperate they are to get a top of the rotation type pitcher…we seem to be the only team with one of those available…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
I get the impression from reading their SBN blog
that they didn’t look on Lackey as being a top of the rotation guy. For that matter, I don’t think any of the posters thought of Lowe as one either.
..........And then there was Lowe
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Dec 15, 2009 11:31 AM EST reply actions
How about...
Vlad and Podsednik? Vlad could move to 1B and Pods could lead off. If Vlad is in better shape going into ST, him in RF, and get Glaus for 1B.
by Blue or CONKZILLA on Dec 15, 2009 11:44 AM EST reply actions
Other than the fact that...
…Vlad has never played first base and can barely play the field and that Podsednik is not really any good and is a free agent anyway, this makes perfect sense.
lol
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
The more I think of.....
the Lowe situation,the more convinced I am that it really isnt that important. I prefer prospects who are close to ML ready, righthanded and play the outfield.The real question is, what’s next? To get a Rivera is not the short or long term solution.Do we bid for Bay? Does Mclouth have some inside friendship that makes him the player we go after? What if he does not bite and signs elsewhere? Is he the answerto throw 17 mil at at? I am not so sure.I keep thinking that Miguel Cabrera and his 19 mil might do the trick. Look, he fills in the 1st base slot.Maybe we can get Detroit to take on some of his salary.Chipper may retire at years end,and we have no real alternative in the system to replace at 3rd and Miggy could play there.Free of Chipper’s monetary obligations Cabrera is not a stumbling block to future payroll. Does anybody know what the Tigers are looking for?
by mikie baseball on Dec 15, 2009 11:52 AM EST reply actions
I don't think the salary would work.
Cabrera is signed for a ton of money for a long time. I think he still has $100 million plus left on his contract. He is a huge bat, but the Tigers won’t eat much contract. He costs (I think) almost $10 million more per year than Chipper. He also isn’t the answer at 3B after Chipper is gone—he stopped playing third because he was immobile a couple of years ago. He would be scary bad there now.
he runs at about 19 mil per year...
for another 6 season I believe. So in my mind he eats up most of what he have left after Lowe is gone, which would mean having maybe Heyward and Shafer on the the openning day roster. Chipper brings in 13 mil, and if he is gone next year we have Cabrera. As far as being a butcher at the position, I am not sure. Remember, he started as a shortstop. His bat fits perfectly, especially if we dont have to give up Freeman in the deal.
by mikie baseball on Dec 15, 2009 12:52 PM EST reply actions
IF.....
the Angels even WANT to trade for D Lowe. Administration is using this as bait for the best deals they can lure out. Do not get so stimulated you suffer from PE!!! It is much more likely the Angels are going to offer Matthews JR. rather than Rivera. They know the braves want to move Lowe as much as they want Matthews to disappear. Let’s come down from MARS and be reasonable!
What is PE?
If the Angels offer GMJr, Wren should just hang up and wait for them to come down from MARS.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
His post is a bit rambling and hard to understand...
…but I am guessing that the “E” in PE is “envy.”
hmmm….Player Envy? Personal Envy? Probable Envy? Pitching Envy?
That’s it! Pitching Envy!
Good tag-team work on that one, cavebird!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
Blue Jays?
Lyle Overbay seems to be on the block now that they Jays have acquired Brett Wallace. Overbay isn’t flashy and he is left handed, but could be a serviceable first baseman and good for 20 homers. Would free up money to go get an outfielder.
I’m not sure who all plays for Toronto, or who matches up with Atlanta. I do know that they have been trying to sell each year as the year they are going to become relevant again in the AL East. Perhaps, after trading off their best asset, a guy like Lowe is the type player they need to be competitive.
Overbay...
…has only hit over 20 HRs in a season once. Assuming he is more or less free (which I assume is true), his contract is still $7 million and I think we could get a better free agent for less than that.
no.
that’s just. well. he goes from a hitters park (which toronto has played like for years) to ours (which is more of a pitcher’s place) on a left-handed dominated lineup and you think that LYLE OVERBAY will hit 25-30 HRs.
jesus, some of you learned baseball from the back of the ’86 tops pack.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Dec 15, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
The back of the pack…is that where they put your odds of getting the really rare cards?
I need to go through all my old cards. They are at mis padres, so I haven’t even seen them in 7 or 8 years…I wonder if I have a Roy Halladay rookie just wasting away somewhere….
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
lol i had like 2 Derek Jeter Cards that were exactly the same it was like his second year i think and i traded one of them for like Mo Vaughn 1B for Red Sox, Angels and Mets and then somethin else, i mean i the card prolly isn’t worth anything but wow still dumb lol, but hey i was in like 6th grade at the time so i guess its ok lol.
braves#1
Turner Field is actually considered a rather neutral field. He would play 81 games elsewhere and the pitching staffs of the Phillies, Mets, and Marlins has not matched up to the Red Sox, Yankees, and Rays. Most AL hitters hit better in the NL when they switch. 5-10 additional HRs is not out of reason. Amazing what info is on thoses Topps packs.
Since someone had to set me straight just the other day about this...
…we’re actually much more inclined towards being a pitchers park:
2001: 11th
2002: 35th
2003: 33rd
2004: 15th
2005: 5th
2006: 21st
2007: 24th
2008: 9th
2009: 26th
Does anyone else know of other sites that measure park factors? I’d be interested to see other findings, as I also thought we were considered more of a neutral park.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 15, 2009 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
Did you even bother to click the link?
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 15, 2009 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
Check out
Statcorner. Also. I don’t think it is necessarily a park’s ranking that determines whether it is a pitcher/neutral/hitter park when it comes to park factor. Rather it is calculated where 100 is dead neutral; anything above is hitter; anything below is pitcher. Granted, your park’s ranking ought to relflect that most of the time, but there are cases where it’s not so.
by Hizilla on Dec 16, 2009 6:43 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I’m not sure there is a good way to determine a park unless its lke Petco or Philly where the advantages are obvious. We go from from 24 to 9 to 26. Think the fact that we had good pitching staffs in ‘07 and ’09 and ’08 was were we lost most of our staff. Yankee Stadium is 20th and they set a franchise HR record. About the only way to determine it is to ask the players where they like to play. You’ll have a difference with LH and RH in both pitching and hitting. Every pitcher would like to play in a Petco type field and LH power hitters would love Yankee Stadium.
Baseball-Reference suggests otherwise.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/ATL/attend.shtml
The highest we’ve been away from an average park factor is 3% in favor of hitters in ’01.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 17, 2009 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
That's just a bit nuts.
The NL East has some pretty good staffs, and Overbay did get to hit against the dreck the Orioles have trotted out to the mound the past few years. Furthermore, almost all of the AL East parks are hitters parks, Toronto and Baltimore slightly; Boston and New York extremely. (I think Tampa is pretty neutral.)
Most AL hitters hit better in the NL when they switch? Really? Do you have any stats to back that up? Also, if the NL is so much easier, why wasn’t Overbay blasting 25-30 HR’s when he played full-time in Milwaukee in 2004 and 2005?
I think you’re mixing up AL hitters with AL pitchers, who no longer have to face a DH in the NL. So if it’s easier for the pitchers, it’s the reverse for the batters.
Not necessarily.
It is easier for pitchers in the NL because they only face eight real hitters in a line-up, not nine. That does not mean it is harder for hitters—other than perhaps RBI and Run numbers for a few hitters—-because they are still one hitter in either league.
According to Baseball Reference.....
Juan Rivera’s most similar player is Xavier Nady. Why not just dump Lowe and sign Nady? Or, ask for Rivera in a trade with the Angels? His .810 OPS last year would look nice in Atlanta, IF he could replicate it. Ok, I’m done babbling……
by FloridaBravesFan on Dec 15, 2009 4:02 PM EST reply actions
Rivera & why the whitesox ?
I believe Lowe ends up with the Angels for a decent pickup in Rivera and some type of minor league mid-grade prospect or bullpen arm ?
Angels get: D.Lowe (entire contract)
Braves get: J. Rivera (for two years w/ arb) & another stephen marek type should Halos have one ~.
Go Braves.
by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Dec 15, 2009 4:14 PM EST reply actions
None of these guys are BIG bats
They’re more like this:
Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.
There are no big bats available at a reasonable price.
This is no surprise. The key is to find value. And dammit, the Red Sox beat us to the value hitter on the market this year. We’ll have to look elsewhere. Maybe Glaus—right-handed, has power, and is undervalued because his batting average is low (but OBP is fine due to walks). He is a big injury risk, however.
We must find this eight-foot-tall child and sign him.
by TheLetter2 on Dec 15, 2009 8:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 16, 2009 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
Thats MY bat!! stupid kids…
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Dec 16, 2009 8:10 AM EST up reply actions
I didnt know Frodo played baseball
I thought hurricane season was over........
by bravesguy311 on Dec 16, 2009 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
I didn't know
there was still any use for pop culture references that that reached the peak of their comedic value in 2002.
well if you want to be a dick about it, Return of the King came out in 2003. Thanks for your scathing comedy review, now jump out a window
I thought hurricane season was over........
by bravesguy311 on Dec 16, 2009 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
haha
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 16, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
Minus Infinity for you
Not only was this unneccesarily mean, but there will always be a place for LOTR references on fucking blog. The internets are full of nerds. What the hell makes you so cool?
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
by buzzdeadwax on Dec 16, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
Fail.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 16, 2009 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
I'll get your back here.
Dumb joke.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 17, 2009 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
Rivera? Nady?
None of the guys that seem to be the popular choices are the 30-homer types we need. I’m really just not happy with most of the possibilities out there. What we need is a Willingham or Dunn, but the Nats are jerks.
Willingham costs you have the runs...
…he makes at the plate in the field. Dunn costs you almost all of his. Pass.
I was fortunate enough to be in DC for a Nats game against the Brewers. I saw Willingham make two errors in right, both were missed catches (ball hit the glove, completely catchable) that most little leaguers probably could of held on to.
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Dec 16, 2009 8:13 AM EST up reply actions
i dunno
i have a feeling Rivera would do good as a fulltime player and could reach 30 HR’s hitting between Chip and Mac.
by drumzalicious on Dec 15, 2009 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
Eh, with Lowe’s contract and the downward trend in his performance, the idea that the Braves will move him, get something of value, and free up some money to land a significant upgrade in the outfield are very slim. This will probably end with the Braves eating a lot of his contract and failing to get more than a few serviceable guys who won’t make us competitive with the Phillies.
And yes, I know, I was a big fan of signing Lowe this time last year, but it’s no longer possible to ignore the downward trend in his performance.
by BraveBronco0121 on Dec 15, 2009 6:27 PM EST reply actions
Was your computer in the shop?
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
by buzzdeadwax on Dec 16, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
The obvious tweet of the day award goes to Jon Morosi from Fox Sports.
#Braves don’t necessarily need RH power bat for Lowe. Good prospect value could also work.
Possible D. Lowe suitors: #Yankees, #Mets, #Brewers, #Angels, #Orioles. In my opinion, Halos are best fit.
Brewers said they had no interest last year
before the bidding even started. Just a day or two ago the GM said that a major deal was no longer likely. I’d guess the odds of them being a possibility is zero. Yanks balked at 1 year of 12 million for Sheets. I’d say Halos or Mutts.
Angels and Mets are most likely destinations...
…and I agree that I don’t see the Brewers involved. I doubt the Yankees get involved either, but I don’t think that has anything to do with them passing on an outrageous demand from a pitcher who hasn’t pitched in a year and has major health issues.
What health issues does Sheets have?
He’ll probably get around 9 with incentives to take him up to 12 or so.
You sound like his agent
Let’s see… didn’t pitch at all in 2009, couldn’t finish 2008, also hurt in 2007. He’d be the poster boy for pitching injuries if Mike Hampton didn’t alreay have that title locked up.
You don't like reality?
Interesting comparison. I can see the equivalency between shoulder surgeries and an inner ear infection.
Okay, here's reality
After 2004, he went downhill: (2005) 156, (2006) 106, (2007) 141, and then 198 innings (actually more than I expected) in 2008. I do hope he comes back 100% (elbow/flexor tendon surgery), and I wish him well…. but any contract would have to be heavily incentive laden.
2005 was the inner ear infections.
2006 – started on the DL… I don’t know why, but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t the ear thing a year later.
2006 again – shoulder tendinitis.
2007 – hammy in August; season ending injury.
2008 – elbow. That’s why CC Sabathia ended up on 3-day stints for a couple weeks.
Yeah, he’s an injury risk.
Then again...
Lowe is sort of different in the durability department from Sheets.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 18, 2009 8:32 AM EST up reply actions
Why didn’t we go after Chone Figgins? He’s better than anyone I’ve seen mentioned in this thread and was affordable.
Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.
Uhmm...
Seattle already signed him and then traded for Cliff Lee. He can’t be traded until June unless he gives permission, and why would Seattle make yet another trade for a pitcher anyway?
There are obvious reasons not to go after Figgins
1. He got 4 yrs/$36 million.
2. He doesn’t play first base.
3. He isn’t a power bat.
4. Signing him to that kind of money would make the money we would have left for first base be insufficient.
Figgins is a very good player, but the positional aspect, money and type of player did not fit into our needs.
Fair enough, but you could sign Figgins and Nick Johnson just by moving Lowe’s salary. Counting Chipper, that would give you three near-.400 OBP guys at the top of the lineup.
Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.
by TradeAndruw on Dec 15, 2009 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
So will Chipper, not to mention the OF. They’re not sluggers, but those two would transform this offense more than Bay/Holliday for a fraction of the price.
Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.
It takes OBP and a bit of SLG
And doing that wouldn’t get you anying slugging—-Johnson’s power has disappeared. Don’t get me wrong, OBP is very important, but someone has to be getting the big hits in the lineup somewhere. It would make more sense to get one OBP guy and one slugger. Obviously the OBP guy couldn’t be Figgins in that scenario (Figgins + slugger = too much money) but Johnson could be a fit if he would stay healthy and came cheap, both of which are uncertain.
This is it
Work out a trade with the Angels for Juan Rivera who I believe is making $4 or $5 mil a year.
That gives us a RF or LF with decent power(25 homeruns and young)
That’s frees up about $12-$17mil and we can go out there and make a play for Bay ASAP. (Word is the Cardinals are offering
Matt H. $217mil over 6 years.) If Bay signs else where we can always make a trade for a bat. But I think this is one of the best senerios for us.
by AlRoBraves95 on Dec 15, 2009 7:10 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Bay is a horrible defender and will get worse as he ages, whihc is why no one is offering that 5th year he wants… his bat is real nice, but his D is almost as bad as Dunn’s (i said almost, so chill, preemptive defense)
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Bay is not a good defender.
But he is just a normal bad defensive player. He is a FUGA bad defender. But nobody in baseball is almost as bad as Dunn. He is historically bad. Based on UZR, he is about three times worse than Bay/FUGA types. (Like -12 UZR vs. -36 UZR). I understand it is hyperbole, but it is like saying a good hitter is almost as good as Babe Ruth was. Dunn is that historically bad fielder to which nobody will compare.
$217mil over 6 years?
Yeah, okay. Try $16MM per year for 5 or 6 years.
MLBTradeRumors is a good place to check out…
In Frank Wren I trust.
Fanhouse says the same...
5/$75 or 6/$90
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 18, 2009 8:39 AM EST up reply actions
Why do people keep saying that Rivera is young? Last time I checked he was the same age as Bay.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 16, 2009 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
Ha, absolutely. But only to confirm my suspicions that Rivera is in fact not a young player.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
Who gives a shit what they get back for lowe so long as his contract is off the books!
The loot that gets freed up is the real prize here. Juan Rivera is not what the Braves need. They’ve already got Matty D., who provides similar offense and better defense.
better defense?
MattyD had a UZR of 0.3 when he was in LF.
Rivera had a URZ of 12.7 when he was in LF.
Rivera also has a great arm in LF. I don’t have stats to back this up, but I went to a couple Angels games this past summer, and it’s fantastic. He gunned 2 guys out at home and very rarely would runners test him.
In Frank Wren I trust.
But remember that's one year
In 2008 and 2006, Rivera had negative UZRs (in 2007 too, but he only played like 10 games in the field). He’s probably not a “true” 12.7. In both 06 and 07, Matt had a UZR/150 of 18.0 and 19.3.
Career UZR/150 for Rivera is 4.5. For Matty D is 3.0. The margin of error is somewhere around 5 runs, which these guys are well within. Rivera’s one really good season is a big outlier, so I don’t think there’s anyway you can conclude he’s a better fielder based one good year. Not saying Matt is better either-you have to call this one inconclusive.
Basically, I’d rather trade for a guy with a .331 career OBP because he “might” upgrade our outfield defense. We’ve got a guy stashed in the AAA who’s definitely a defensive upgrade.
Arm
Uzr includes arms, IIRC, so quoting uzr and then mentioning riveras arm is redundant.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
by Yakker on Dec 15, 2009 8:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Don’t quote me on it (in an airport bar in OC and am a little buzzed), but yeah pretty sure.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
by Yakker on Dec 15, 2009 8:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
u are correct sir
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
Thanks. Nice to see I can still quote uzr chapter and verse while drinking heavily! :-)
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
by Yakker on Dec 15, 2009 9:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
+1
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 16, 2009 10:27 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, it does.
Look at the fangraphs pages of anyone and you can see that “arm” is one of the components.
Who wants to block Heyward with a player like that?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 18, 2009 8:40 AM EST up reply actions
Are you really that dense?...
he can easily slide to left when Heyward makes his debut. Heyward has nothing to do with who plays in right and who’s in left if we’re looking at Juan Rivera and Matt Diaz to start in the corners.
I love all those message board Yank fans on MLBTR who think Jurrjens is an equal to Joba Chamberlain. Joba is not even close to being as good Jurrjens and a Lowe/Jurrjens for Joba/Swisher trade is a complete joke but I needed a good laugh.
I agree and watching him pitch deep into innings 90% of the time is a pain to stomach. I think limiting his innings is a double edged sword. It keeps him fresh, but it screws the pen up every time he takes the mound. I’m not convinced that he’s the kind of pitcher that can go 200+ innings year after year, yet.
by Walker Wallace on Dec 15, 2009 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
oh lord
do you have a link? I feel like going crazy on some Yankees fans right now.
In Frank Wren I trust.
Not to get sucked into this. But joba’s k and fip numbers compare favorably to jj once league and park are taken into account
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
by Yakker on Dec 15, 2009 8:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
JJ didn’t pitch 200 IPs his first season as a starter either.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
You're right.
He hit 188, or 31 more innings than Joba. In the same number of starts. And one less game.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 18, 2009 8:42 AM EST up reply actions
lowe
it certainly looks like the angels have to be the frontrunner for derek lowe, and as long as the contract is off the books i dont think it matters who they get in trade.
I believe you are right since the Angels need to fill the gap left by losing Lackey. MLBTR seems to be pointing in that direction, too. It makes sense. I’m not so sure about the White Sox or what they have to offer.
by Walker Wallace on Dec 15, 2009 8:19 PM EST up reply actions
is that a possessive parents?
or are you just happy to be writing?
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Dec 16, 2009 2:35 AM EST up reply actions
Would Atlanta consider trading Jurjjens and Lowe for Joba,McAllister,and possibly swisher?
Posted by: Yankee Fan57 | December 15, 2009 at 04:48 PM
I wouldn’t be that hard on Yankee Fan57, but that is laughable at best.
Here’s the link if you wanna see it for yourself:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/12/odds-ends-mets-royals-dodgers.html
Not crazy. Lowe for swisher is an atl win. Jj for joba is close, and I’d have to check arb status to be sure, but I think joba has an extra year of control over jj, but atl trading 2 sps is unlikely.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
by Yakker on Dec 15, 2009 8:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Jurrjens 2009 xFIP: 4.34
Joba’s 2009 xFIP: 4.56
Joba is younger, pitches in a tougher division of a tougher league, has higher K rates and similar K/BB rates, and is still transitioning to full-time starter.
Yes, in some ways you’re correct. It’s not close, because Joba is a superior asset.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
lol
Joba = September 23, 1985
Jair = January 29, 1986
you, sir, are an idiot.
Joba also has a higher BB rate, has been injured on several occasions, higher home run rate, higher WHIP, and a crack head momma.
info taken from:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/chambjo03.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jurrjja01.shtml?redir
go home Yankee fan, pretty much everyone outside of NYC thinks Jair is a MUCH superior asset.
if you want to come here, come correct, because right now you look like a tool.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Dec 16, 2009 5:01 AM EST up reply actions
His mom was a national champion softball player..she threw a 100MPH riseballs
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Dec 16, 2009 8:25 AM EST up reply actions
LOL, dude. Stop embarrassing yourself. I’m not a Yankee fan, and I’m a frequent poster on TC. I just prefer to deal in reality.
BB rates typically come down as a pitcher matures. K rates rarely go up. And it isn’t as if JJ is a model of command/control either, with BB rates over 3. Joba and JJ are virtually dead even in K/BB, and Joba pitches in a much more difficult pitching environment (division/league/park).
Oh, and HR rates regress to a mean. Duh.
Joba’s still adjusting to pitching in the rotation. Compare it to JJ’s first season as a SP for a fair comparison.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
I am not sure on one point here.
HR/FB rates do tend to regress to mean. HR/9 rates, as far as I know, do not. Avoiding giving up home runs is a skill—-for example, fly ball pitchers tend to always give up more HR than ground ball pitchers. They don’t revert to the mean. Now, in Joba’s case, if he spiked in 2009 on HR rate, that could be park influenced, but I don’t know.
Now, in Joba’s case, if he spiked in 2009 on HR rate, that could be park influenced, but I don’t know.
And, in fact, that’s exactly what happened with Joba. Both his HF/FB and HR/9 numbers jumped in 2009.
BTW, don’t know whether HR/9 also regresses to a mean, as HR/FB does. But it probably regresses to a player mean, although I don’t think Joba has established that baseline yet.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
JJ has higher BB rates because he nibbles corners...
and isn’t named Glavine or Maddux in 1998.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 16, 2009 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
We agree, he doesn’t have the strikeout stuff of Joba.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
7.61 vs 6.36 so not a huge difference. I’m not a fan of Joba at all. It just seems that people always talk about a guy becoming more of a pitcher than a thrower when his K rates go down. I just get a little annoyed by that cliche
7.61 v 6.36 is actually a huge difference, especially when you consider that JJ’s 6.36 is bolstered by the fact that he faces a pitcher 2-3 times per start.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Yeah, that's definitely statistically significant.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 18, 2009 8:46 AM EST up reply actions
Differences...
Jurrjens can pitch 200 innings, Joba can’t. Jurrjens is more of a finesse pitcher, while Joba has that big time heater, and I’d assume Jurrjens can more often pitch better than his FIP compared to the power Joba.
It’s not close, Jurrjens is infinitely better on durability and pitching acumen. Joba is a set up man right now, and perhaps a closer in the long run. That alone makes enough of a disparity to lean the scales in JJ’s favor heavily.
Answered this above. Also,“pitch better more often than his FIP?” I’m really not sure what that means.
Is that like being taller than your height?
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
No.
Pitching better than FIP involves getting a lower ERA than FIP would indicate. That can happen consistently due to external factors such as the team having a good defense (not the Braves last year, lol) or a pitcher’s ability to induce batted balls to go in the direction of his best fielders.
I understand the point, but it’s not semantically accurate the way Sanchez stated it above.
There’s a difference between consistently having ERAs below FIPs (not usually a repeatable skill) and somehow “pitching better” than your FIP. Most pitchers cannot “pitch better” than your FIP, although may just get lucky (or have a great defense) and have an ERA that is lower than your FIP.
or a pitcher’s ability to induce batted balls to go in the direction of his best fielders.
Yeah, that’s a pretty awesome ability. Is it like using The Force?
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
I remember when we got Vazquez that there was a lot of talk about how he always underperformed his peripherals and FIP. I think that will always catch up with the pitcher though (like this season).
For example...
…Greinke (although screwing up what FIP meant in the process) noted that last year he purposefully induced more flyballs in certain situations because Kansas City’s outfield defense is better than its infield defense. It is very tricky to do, but is possible. Most of the time, however, pitchers who consistently pitch better than their FIP’s do so because they have very good defenses.
Pitching to contact – like Maddog.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 16, 2009 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
No you’re missing the point. The purpose of FIP is to be able to see the real skill of the pitcher over things he can control (read: without help from the defense).
As are you...
some Ps are easier to field for than others.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 16, 2009 10:04 PM EST up reply actions
LOL
Not such a great example. In 2009, Greinke’s FB rate only went up by 2%, 1.2% of which was comprised of more infield flies. BTW, Greinke has a career ERA of 3.73 and a career FIP of 3.66.
The vast majority of pitchers, even great ones like Greinke, cannot consistently control what happens to a batted ball.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
or, just weak hits...
if they can’t hit balls hard, they are more easily fielded. I disagree that pitchers can’t consistently outperform their FIP.
OK, then prove me wrong. (And I honestly have an open mind on this and am willing to be proven wrong.)
Show me 15 pitchers who have outperformed their FIPs by 0.50 or more over their last 1,000 IPs.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
thanks for throwing out specific benchmark #s...
how much better you can do all that math, but a random look at Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, Phil Niekro, Tim Wakefield, and others had consistently better ERAs than FIPs. Ground ball, nibble the corner Ps imo will consistently put out better ERA than FIP. Maybe not by a margin as wide as you’d like, but still better. Power pitchers that rely on Ks won’t, but not all guys need to put up 8-9+ K/9 to be successful.
Great
You named 4 pitchers spanning the last 30 years. If anything, that proves my point.
BTW, none of these guys seem to be outside the standard deviation, and some, like Maddux are almost dead-on, again proving my point. For his career, Maddux put up a 3.16 ERA over his career as compared to a 3.26 FIP.
And I’d like to modify my challenge a bit, either for you or anyone on here. Show me 15 pitchers during the current era who have outperformed their FIPs by 0.50 or more over their last 1,000 IPs. Until someone does, I am not buying it.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
I looked at 4 pitchers, and found 4...
sorry, I don’t have all day to look through historical Ps. I’d wager if it was worth it, I’d find a lot more than 4.
No, you didn’t find 4. You found zero.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
Hence why I never cared for advance stats...
they make people think they found the ultimate # to truly tell who is good and who isn’t, and who is better than who. FIP is a good stat, but it doesn’t tell everything about a pitcher.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 17, 2009 11:44 PM EST up reply actions
That fit your benchmark #s...
pulled straight from your butt, sure that’s 0. If we’re talking what I said, pitchers who consistently outperform (meaning better ERA) their FIP.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 17, 2009 11:45 PM EST up reply actions
No, it means...
I’d expect “power” pitchers to be less likely to outperform FIP than others.
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 16, 2009 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
Why is this even an argument?
Jabba looks like this because he’s lame:
And Jurrjens looks like this because he uppercuts freaking sharks for fun:
by FineHamAbounds on Dec 16, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
You will bring Capt. Swisher and the wookie to me……
I thought hurricane season was over........
by bravesguy311 on Dec 16, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
Awesome.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 16, 2009 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
And Joba's been fat forever.
Look at his beyond baseball commercial.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 18, 2009 8:49 AM EST up reply actions
yankees and lowe
i thought i heard yankees werent interested in lowe but hed be a good fit there if hes got the sinker on and hes clutch in the playoffs. i think if you give it a couple more days you are going to see some interest and probably smart of wren to say they will consider eating some of the contract to get even some more interest.
The problem with waiting is that there has to be someone left to spend the money on when the lowe contract clears.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
by Yakker on Dec 15, 2009 8:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
agon, crawford, fielder
if you guys had your choice of trading for gonzalez, crawford or fielder and it involved trading jurjjens, moylan,minor and freeman, and you could sign one of those guys to a multi year who would you trade for and who would make the biggest impact as a brave??
completely depends on the contract each individual gets… the best way to phrase the question… is assuming all things are equal, which player is most valaubel to the Braves, in terms of talent and age/projection… the answer would be Fielder, for me at least… we don’t have a bat in our system thats even close to what Fielder is… he is also the youngest of the group. His defense is pretty bad, but it seems to be improving and he has gotten better every season…
Therefore, because his he is the player least like anyone we have and a source of very much need for us at a position of need.. Fielder is my guy… again that assuming contracts are the same (which they wouldn’t be obviosuly, bc Fielder is the most valuable if they were all on the market). Hopefully, you got one answer out of this.
For the record I wouldnt trade all that for any of those players unless we convinved them to sign 6 year contracts for a total of 40M
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
I agree
not sure where the question came from, however.
Rah Rah Ah Ah Ah Roma Romama GaGa Ooh Lala
by VivaLosBravos on Dec 15, 2009 9:00 PM EST up reply actions
it came from the guy that asked it
deep huh?
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
What are you, a philosophizer or something?
Rah Rah Ah Ah Ah Roma Romama GaGa Ooh Lala
by VivaLosBravos on Dec 15, 2009 9:25 PM EST up reply actions
Agree re fielder, although the 3 of course wouldn’t command the same extension.
If Albert played in the AFL, they’d have to rename it the AZ/NM Fall League, based on where his homers landed.
by Yakker on Dec 15, 2009 9:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
All things being equal in salary...
I think some of you aren’t considering a couple of things… While I think they are both pretty equal on offense, I give the slight edge to Gonzalez.
First of all Gonzalez plays in Petco park half the time. I know you all know this but it needs to be said again: it is amazing how many homers it has cost the guy. He hit 40 home runs this year and 28 of them were on the road. Had he played in Turner Field, he might have rivaled Fielder’s stats this year.
Secondly, Gonzales homerun and walk totals have been increasing over his 6 year career and amazingly just this year his strikeout total had decreased dramatically. Combined with a huge increase in walks, that’s a good sign. Fielder’s stats have been a bit up and down but it may be argued that this past year may have been his best or at least rivals his best homerun year (50) in 2007. Is Gonzalez going to produce even better in 2010? Kind of scary to think what he could do in Atlanta’s line up. While our line up is not like the Yankees—at least it’s not as bad as San Diego’s. The guy slugged .643 ON THE ROAD. Given that most guys like their own ballparks and Turner is a neutral park for hitting, he could have a HUGE year in Atlanta.
Thirdly, and this may or may not be a concern, but Gonzalez is in much better shape. Yeah, okay, go ahead and gripe that “Fielder’s an athlete”, “it’s all muscle”, “can’t judge a person based on weight alone”, etc. None the less, health is still a concern because the guy is enormous. It’s not like the guy is a bit big, but he is huge. He is listed as 268 on a 5’11" frame and I bet he is actually heavier than this. Anyway, I didn’t say it was a huge concern especially since he is still fairly young and can probably overcome any difficulties physically but you gotta figure that this is eventually going to catch up to him. His ankles and knees are not going to be able to overcome the stress down the road. Whether it happens within the next year or 5 years from now is hard to say. But you know, if you guys claim that there is a difference in age—ONLY 2 YEARS—then I can say that Fielder may have health issues in the near future. I said MAY have. Still have to consider this if he is under a long term contract.
I’m not sure who I would trade to get Gonzalez, but if it involved Freeman and maybe another top prospect in our system not named Heyward, and possibly another current low cost MLB player (I’m not sure that I’d want to trade Jurrjens), I may consider it—if it was me who could make the trade. Having a guy like this in the line up is like a 2 for 1. Where else can you get this kind of amazing production? If we signed Nady for LF (since we wouldn’t need much more offense) and brought up Heyward at some point, the line up would be incredible—even if Chipper went down.
Because Boston wasn’t able to swing a deal doesn’t mean it’s not possible. But it may be impossible if San Diego isn’t reasonable. It is a sign, and who really knows the inside thinking over there. Doesn’t sound like the Padres are in any hurry to do anything right now. The guy is cheap and he brings in fans (obviously since San Diego doesn’t have much else).
-----
Braves Fan Since 1982. Go Braves!
"All opinions welcome..."
I’m not seeing anywhere that the White Sox have shown interest. Is there a link?
by Walker Wallace on Dec 15, 2009 10:41 PM EST reply actions
It was a joke…Gondee is making fun of their recent Pierre deal.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 15, 2009 10:49 PM EST up reply actions
swo
appreciate the response, i mentioned the three because i think they all would be capable of huge impacts on offense. with contracts being equal, which they wouldnt be, i was wondering who you felt would make the most impact, i put fielder and gonzo really close together and would give you that very legitimate cleanup guy, i would love to have crawford hitting in front of a back to normal chipper,assuming bobby would let him run. hes an exciting player to watch. i dont see how you get any of these guys for 6 years 40 million, i think it would take much more than that, these are all guys that would make a big impact, i also think the package of jj, moylan, minor and freeman gets you a call back from all those clubs, i dont think its outlandish. you could substitute jv for jj if you want but i think contract wise youd expect pads and brewers to ask for jj. if milwaukee were to ask for hanson, moylan and minor for fielder and you can lock him up for 6 years 60 million do you do it????
sorry
they dont seem to be all that enthused with a lowe acquisition on the met blogs. if you had your choice of ben sheets or derek lowe for 12 million, how in your right mind could you take sheets????? they say the yanks are interested in sheets, you would think they learned their lesson after signing pavano, i guess not,
Sheets → among the very best pitchers in baseball. No major arm or shoulder problems. The elbow surgery he had is the same one Pettite had done. He’d also be a one year deal. Lowe is 3 and he ain’t young.
Not quite.
Sheets has thrown more than 160 innings in a season once since 2004, and that was 2008, which led to 2009 in which he didn’t pitch more than 0 innings. His career adj. ERA+ is 115, which is good, but still a little lower than Lowe’s 117. Lowe has thrown over 180 innings every season since 2002.
Plus...
Sheets and Joel Piniero are wanting multiple years, for $10+ mil. Is Lowe for a similar term, at a similar price, not worth it?
by Mr. Sanchez on Dec 16, 2009 10:27 AM EST up reply actions
Sheets wants multiple years?
I hadn’t heard that. Piniero is younger and had a better year last year. I don’t think 11 is similar to 15.
That 15 won't come at full cost to Lowe's new team.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 18, 2009 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
…which led to 2009 in which he didn’t pitch more than 0 innings.
Ha, nice.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 16, 2009 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
Not so fast
There are a plethora of numbers you can pull out to support either side of the argument. If you were to ask scouts, coaches and managers, do you think a single one would consider Lowe a better pitcher if health risks were set aside?
Setting health risks aside defeats the purpose when
…one pitcher in the comparison is always hurt while the other is very rarely hurt. Of course, Sheets has better stuff, but he just can’t stay healthy.
Angels Interest?
I don’t like the idea of adding Rivera in return. Why not get our “power” bat through FA or another trade? Ship Lowe to the Angels for some mid level prospects.
LAA eats Lowe’s salary and we get P.J. Phillips, Trevor Bell, and Alexi Amarista.
Looking at the possible FA 1B options, I’m not too thrilled. Only viable options are Carlos Delgado and Adam LaRoche. Don’t see us signing either. Looks like possible trade could be the best way to obtain a power hitting first baseman.
Here is what I would do:
Sign Jermaine Dye
- Put him in RF. He said he is also willing to move to 1B and he still has power. You got to think he would like to return to the ATL.
Sign Jonny Gomes
- Has always been a masher. Provides some outfield depth and a great pinch hitting threat off of the bench
Trade Freddie Freeman, Jordan Schafer, Cody Johnson, and Randall Delgado for Prince Fielder
- I know some of you are screaming right now. But hear me out. There were rumors that the Brewers wew shopping Fielder around the last couple of off seasons. He is young and arguably the best power hitter in the game
by FreeBarryBonds on Dec 15, 2009 11:28 PM EST reply actions
um
why trade that for fielder when we could surely offer that to agonz and most likely get him
by drumzalicious on Dec 16, 2009 12:07 AM EST up reply actions
Um because
Fielder is two years younger and is a better offensive player than Gonzalez.
by FreeBarryBonds on Dec 16, 2009 12:27 AM EST up reply actions
i like Fielder
but do we really want to trade some good pieces (and Delgado/Freeman/Schafer will be starters for a long time in this League) for a guy who won’t resign with us?
didn’t we already go down this road once before? and didn’t it hurt us?
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Dec 16, 2009 1:31 AM EST up reply actions
No, it didn't.
Don’t you know the Teixiera trade was a huge win for this franchise that strengthened us then and now? To suggest otherwise here=not allowed.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 18, 2009 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
I agree with Agonz. A GG fielder with more years of control and very close to Fielder while playing in Petco. IMHO, a no brainer. I would doubt SD would trade him for that package. They would ask for JJ or Hanson to headline that deal just like they asked the Red Sox for Buchholtz. He’s cheap and they can afford to wait until someone meets the price.
Wow.
That is one massive brutal defense you put together there. Dye is as bad as FUGA in the field at this point and his overall hitting is no longer that great. He still has some power, but that is about it. Gomes is a DH, his fielding may be worse than Dye. Fielder’s fielding is average, he is not available, and giving up the farm for two years of him is questionable.
You're right...
But doesn’t Fielder’s average fielding mean something more given how bad it once was? Maybe he’s got a shot to be an above-average fielder in the next few years before all is said and done.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 18, 2009 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
Hilarious rundown of the trade from a Phillies perpsective:
2010
We gain: The difference between Halladay and Lee (very small benefit)
We lose: A little bit of money
Balance: Small gain
2011
We gain: 34-year-old Halladay (probably still a great pitcher)
We lose: Drabek (minimal salary), Taylor (minimal salary), Two Draft Picks (Lee), the player(s) we would have been able to acquire with the $20 million we’re paying Halladay, the player(s) we won’t be able to acquire because we have to pay market salaries to the players taking the spots that otherwise would have been occupied by Drabek and Taylor
Balance: Wash at best
2012
We gain: 35-year-old Halladay (maybe a great pitcher, maybe not), Aumont (minimal salary), Gillies (minimal salary)
We lose: Drabek (minimal salary), Taylor (minimal salary), the player(s) we would have been able to acquire with the $20 million we’re paying Halladay, the player(s) we won’t be able to acquire because we have to pay market salaries to the players taking the spots that otherwise would have been occupied by Drabek and Taylor
Balance: We Lose
2013
We gain: 36-year-old Halladay (who knows if he’ll still a great pitcher now), Aumont (minimal salary), Gillies (minimal salary)
We lose: Drabek (minimal salary), Taylor (minimal salary), D’Arnaud (minimal salary), the player(s) we would have been able to acquire with the $20 million we’re paying Halladay, the player(s) we won’t be able to acquire because we have to pay market salaries to the players taking the spots that otherwise would have been occupied by Drabek, Taylor, and D’Arnaud
Balance: We Lose Big
2014
We gain: Aumont (minimal salary), Gillies (minimal salary) Two draft picks for Halladay? (but only if he was still good enough at age 36 for us to offer him arbitration and he declines)
We lose: Drabek (first arb year), Taylor (first arb year), D’Arnaud (minimal salary), the player(s) we would have been able to acquire with the $20 million we’re paying Halladay, the player(s) we won’t be able to acquire because we have to pay market salaries to the players taking the spots that otherwise would have been occupied by Drabek, Taylor, and D’Arnaud
Balance: We Lose Bigger
2015
We gain: Aumont (first arb year), Gillies (first arb year)
We lose: Drabek (second arb year), Taylor (second arb year), D’Arnaud (minimal salary), the player(s) we would have been able to acquire with the $20 million we’re paying Halladay, the player(s) we won’t be able to acquire because we have to pay market salaries to the players taking the spots that otherwise would have been occupied by Drabek, Taylor, and D’Arnaud
Balance: We Lose Really Big
by Kelly's Big Johnson on Dec 15, 2009 11:49 PM EST reply actions
ah… fail for me. I should’ve block quoted that. It isn’t my words.
by Kelly's Big Johnson on Dec 16, 2009 12:00 AM EST up reply actions
If only GMs thought like this…
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Dec 16, 2009 8:31 AM EST up reply actions
Here's the "uh oh" from the Braves perspective.
For reasons I cannot possibly fathom, the Phillies managed to extract $6 million from the Blue Jays in addition to getting Halladay. The Blue Jays oughta be calling the Mounties to investigate the robbery they were subjected to. How you lose a guy like that AND salary considerations is beyond comprehension to me. We’re actually a little lucky that the Phils didn’t decide to keep Lee in their pocket this year…. surely they could afford that.
It’s gonna take some fancy salesmanship by Wren to now turn around and get somebody to pick up the entire Lowe contract.
We were never going to not cover any of Lowe's deal.
I’m sure they’d rather get a better return than clear another $3 mil a year. It’s something, but what comes back will mean more on a year-to-year basis than the money saved.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 18, 2009 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
Not to mention that Utley, Rollins, Victorino, Hamels and Werth will all be due some pretty big raises during the next 4 years…Sucks that the Phillies have 1/6 of their payroll tied up in 1 guy now…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 16, 2009 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
They have a small window before Howard and company price themselves out of Philly. They will be very content to win another WS or two in the next few years and worry about the futrue when it gets here.
See, this is my take
I’m not sure about the contract status of Rollins, Utley, and Howard, but they can’t have more than a three year window with all of those guys. They’re a World Series caliber-team right now, obviously, since they’ve been to two straight. Halladay will almost certainly be a much better pitcher than Drabek throughout that window, so they want to capitalize and see if they can’t win one or two more championships while they’re in the top tier.
During this window, they’re not going to have to replace many pieces-they’ve locked up a left fielder and third baseman, and they have Howard, Utley, and Rollins filling out the infield. Victorino is arb-eligible they should hang on to a centerfielder in the mean time. The only starting positions where they might need to make some moves are RF and Catcher (and Ben Fransisco might take over in RF for near nothing). Their rotation is pretty solid. I just don’t see their prospects having a place during that timeframe.
Signing Halladay keeps them a WS contender for the next three years-they wouldn’t have been able to extend Cliff Lee. And Halladay is slightly better than Lee, assuming they both stay healthy. So this trade extends their championship window.
They may have overpaid, but they’re on the cusp of another championship, and this could be the move to put them over. It’s hard to put a price on that. Would you want to win next year at the cost of being less competitive in 2013? My answer is “hell yes” because you can’t anticipate what else will transpire by 2013. The guys you thought were super prospects might bust, other prospects might become starts, and you’ll have the chance to make other moves. You might draft a guy in 2010 who is a starter for you in 2013, and does an awesome job.
This isn’t the Tex deal for the Phillies-we weren’t able to resign or extend Tex, but they’ve already locked their guy up.
Mike Cameron talking on XM now
He’s happy to be in Boston, but kinda lamenting that he never got a call, text, peep, or hint of any contact from the Braves. Well, sorry Mike – if other matters had worked out sooner, it might have been possible, but that’s life.
I was a big supporter of Wren last offseason but I’m disappointed so far this time. Didn’t like the Saito signing, the KJ releasing (I don’t blame him for it though), and not even talking to Cameron. He clearly thinks that he will be able to get rid of Lowe but didn’t show any interest in Cameron. Talking to him would have bought us time by tempering his interest in Boston as well as giving us time to deal Lowe. I’m not going to lose faith in Frank but I’d sure as hell like to know his plan.
What you have to realize is that all last week at the winter meetings he was having to deal with Soriano. Had he not had to do that we don’t know what would have happened.
There are plenty of options out there for us at 1B and. OF through trades and FA unfortunately they are all pending on how soon we can ship Lowe out of here.
by drumzalicious on Dec 16, 2009 2:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Sure he had to deal with Soriano but it took Wren less than 24 hours to get rid of him. And I kinda doubt that the whole thing took up all of his time. All he had to do was dial up Cameron’s agent and tell him he was interested. Or get one of his assistants to do it. Not talking to him at all is inexcusable I think.
Maybe he just didn’t want him. Or didn’t think the team could afford him. I agree, I’d like to have seen Cameron with the Braves, but Wren has all the info, not just the speculation, but the actual facts. If he didn’t do something, there was a reason for it.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
I frankly don't know that interest buys us any time...
Frankly, at this point, these guys are trying to get locked up to any good deal they get offered, particularly by a perennial competitor. That was going to be hard to compete with regardless.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 18, 2009 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
No contact at all? That was definitely a mistake.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 16, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
i dont think so
He could have his sights set on a “bigger bat” than Cameron. We dont know what trade scenarios he has.
For all we know he could have just wanted to have one of his acquisitions be under the age of 35
by drumzalicious on Dec 16, 2009 11:43 PM EST up reply actions
It’s called a backup plan.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
Adrian Gonzalez rumor
11:36am: Interesting tweet from ESPN’s Jorge Arangure Jr. – he has a source close to Gonzalez who believes the player will be traded to Boston within the next ten days.
That would make for a killer lineup in Boston.
Alright
I’m starting to get pissed now. Do something Frank. This shit is boring so far.
In Frank Wren I trust.
by mvhsbball on Dec 16, 2009 1:42 PM EST via mobile reply actions
THIS JUST IN!
Braves trade Lowe to Mets for the rights to Jeff Francoeur and sign him to a 6 year, 80 extension!
I’m joking, of course. I’m ok with Frank Wren not doing something as long as he is not doing anything stupid, like trading for Gary Mathews Jr.
Maybe we should start calling him Frank When?
by Kelly's Big Johnson on Dec 16, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
well
DoB said this on Twitter
“Lowe-for-Swisher would be a strong outcome for the Braves in the whole Lowe situation. Big Money (Yanks) could make things all better. "
So maybe he has heard something that we haven’t or he could just be rosterbating
by drumzalicious on Dec 16, 2009 2:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
He followed up 10min later saying that he doesn’t honestly know if they have even talked about that swap.
Thanks for getting my hopes up DoB
by drumzalicious on Dec 16, 2009 2:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
?
Why do we want Swisher? He is a lifetime .245 hitter. His highest HR total (29) was last year in ball park where Jim Abbott could hit 10 HR a year. Realistically, we would be looking at around .240 / 20-25 HR / 65 RBI if he was in a Bravos uniform. He is due to make 6.75 million in 2010 and 9 million in 2011. Excuse me Mr. Wren but please pass on Swisher Sweet.
With the type of major league ready talent we would get in return, we might as well just trade low for some mid level prospects. It will free up money to sign/trade for a better bat than a Swisher/Rivera trade scenario.
by FreeBarryBonds on Dec 16, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I’m really worried about the batting average of a guy that had a .371 OBP and .498 SLG last season …
And he was awful in Yankee stadium, He hit 21 of his HRs on the road.
by Lennox on Dec 16, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
We shouldn’t let facts get in the way of a good argument based on personal opinion…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 16, 2009 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
of course not
like the fact that his highest HR total was 35 in 2006 playing for Oakland
by drumzalicious on Dec 16, 2009 11:45 PM EST up reply actions
um….ok?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 16, 2009 11:55 PM EST up reply actions
i wasnt disagreeing with you. more like adding on to what you said about the OP ignoring facts.
by drumzalicious on Dec 17, 2009 12:05 AM EST up reply actions
oh…hahah!
My bad.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 17, 2009 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
Whoa, wait...
Is Jim Abbott available?
by FineHamAbounds on Dec 16, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
I think he is my all-time favorite pitcher. Anyone who can do what he did with the effectiveness that he did it with should be in the HoF. I don’t care that his numbers aren’t jump-off-the-page great, that man deserves a HoF spot!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 16, 2009 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
BA ftw!
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 16, 2009 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
I was waiting for that!
Dude, you totally should have used that line against me last offseason – although, I did quantify my statement with a high K rate and using him in a cleaup role….
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 16, 2009 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
Let’s be reasonable. On-base percentage is a nice gimmick but how can you be getting on base without getting hits?
Craid Biggio and Chase Utley
Just sayin’.
by FineHamAbounds on Dec 16, 2009 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
Getting hit by pitches is a skill...
…as is getting walked. The same players do better at that year after year after year. Yes, OBP is very important.
I made a respectable amateur career on these two skills. If I had coaches who cared more about OBP and OPS than AVG I might not be the fat loser I am today.
I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com
Don’t bet on it.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2009 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Winner.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 18, 2009 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
Correct, but misleading...
…yes, a player can get on base by error, so technically you answered the question correctly. However, reaching on an error does not help your OBP.
i was being a smartass...
and simply listing ways to get on base without being officially registered a hit.
It isn’t even on the scoreboard, so maybe you do have a point…
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 16, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
Oops.
Ignore my failure to read the j/k font, lol.
I was with it.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 18, 2009 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
Of course I could tell, I was just prolonging the joke.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
Walks is the biggie. A guy with a .310 BA but an OBP of .320 is not as valuable to an offense as a guy with a .250 BA and a .345 OBP.
Plate discipline is extremely underated, and the best stat to see how disciplined a guy is would be his OBP in conjunction with his BA.
Usually, your more powerful hitters (A la Adam Dunn) are going to have low averages, but high OBP due to their uncanny knowledge of a strike zone.
Using Swisher as the example here, he has a low BA, but a high OBP with good power numbers – which means he can sit back and wait for his pitch without chasing something stupid. He doesn’t get fooled often. He may strike out a lot, but that has nothing to do with his plate discipline. Swisher is like an Adam Dunn light.
Those kinds of hitters are rare and very valuable to a team in need of a bopper.
OBP is infinitely more important than BA. I used to not believe this (hence my reservations about Adam Dunn last season), but I am a firm believer in it now, thanks to this blog.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 16, 2009 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
Say we get Swisher, and he's starting 1B...
with Heyward or Schafer in the OF as we miss on other options and decide to go cheap, would you hit Swisher 4th? Basically, if he’s our “big bat addition” would you be satisfied?
If it’s Swisher, Glaus, and Randy Winn, I’d be fine with that. But if it’s Swisher as the most power we add, I would feel a little unstatisfied.
Personally, I would start Swisher in the OF with Nate and Matt (in your given scenario) and either sign a lesser 1B option or bring someone up to fill the void (Barbaro maybe?).
Or, I would use B Jones in the OF and Swisher at 1B. I wouldn’t bring up Heyward until June at least and Schafer shouldn’t even be considered as a 2010 option right now.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 16, 2009 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
I think Heyward makes his own timetable.
We’re a contender. If he shows in spring training that he is clearly the best option for us at the start of the season, he should start the season with him. Games in April count as much as all other games. I wouldn’t worry about starting arbitration/free agency clocks and hurting the money the Braves have six years from now if that harms the chances of a contending Braves team winning.
On the other hand, that is a tall order for Heyward. Even if he is just good in Spring Training, he should start at AAA.
To use a better example for you (since I know your feelings on the subject), look at KJ vs Prado. Prado is going to have the higher BA almost all the time, but KJ has the better plate discipline, more power, and a higher OBP (usually).
Prado is all hits, while KJ is more of a complete batter.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 16, 2009 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
I’m a big believer in OBP too. I was making a joke/fun of people who don’t. No one realized it was sarcasm so I’m gonna call that one a fail on my part
Dang…usually, I would say “my bad” but since like, EVERYONE missed that, you get the fail.
lol
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 16, 2009 6:02 PM EST up reply actions
It double-posted? I only see it once…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 16, 2009 6:22 PM EST up reply actions
I meant the KJ vs Prado example as well. God this has been a rough page for me. I have to put it all behind me
hahaha.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Dec 16, 2009 6:49 PM EST up reply actions
Little known rule
When you don’t swing at 4 pitches outside of the strike zone in an at bat, they award you first base.
I thought you might be, but was a bit unsure.
I felt my response worked either as piling on to your joke, or as being a smart ass if you were serious.
I think we’re the only 3 that are on the same page, about the comment.
"SIGN PUJOLS OR FIRE WREN" ~ Swo12bv
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
Either are quality options.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 18, 2009 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
Magic tricks.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 18, 2009 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
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