Is 6 enough??

by calbers on Nov 9, 2009 10:58 PM EST Comment 45 comments

We have all been reading about the Braves surplus of pitching...we are all either advocating or reading about the Braves trading from this surplus to acquire a RH bat to play LF or RF. Yes-it would be nice to have a stud #4 hitter in RF....but ask yourself. Do we really have a surplus of starting pitching?

Lowe is not young, and while he has been the bastion of health for a number of years, would it be surprising if he broke down next year? No-He has ALOT of innings on that body.

Hudson is one year removed from Tommy John and isn't a spring chicken either. Would we be surprised if he had one..or two stints on the DL next year?

Vazquez has also been very healthy and strong-but he isn't exactly young either. He has also pitched A LOT of innings over the years.

KK-Seems ok

Hanson-No injury history but you also have to respect his workload next year.

All that being said....do we really have "surplus." I think the Red Sox proved that a planned "surplus" can end up being a deficit real fast. That being said...if we made a trade and moved one of our starters-who would be the emergency #5 guy? Medlen would have been the obvious choice but if he is going to be prepared to pitch all year in the pen we can't have him going back and forth. He needs to really work as a bullpen guy.

So if we trade one of our starters...we almost have to go sign (or have someone included in the trade) that could step in and be the long guy/#5 guy in the rotation when someone goes down.

Is trading a starter before spring training really a good idea then? So unless someone is willing to unload Lowe's contract for us-as is-do we really want to move someone?

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we have $44MM dollars tied up to our 4 veteran starters:

DLowe – $15MM
Javy – $12MM
Huddy – $9MM (approx.)
KK – $8MM

yeah, we might not have a “young surplus” of pitchers, but those 4 take up nearly half our payroll. it only makes sense to deal one of them for salary relief, prospects or a big bat.

and Medlen would be our emergency 5th starter/long reliever if we trade a starter. i don’t think we need to sign one

"Are you tryin to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?"

by mvhsbball on Nov 9, 2009 11:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

or Todd Redmond or any of the other high upper low ceiling starters we have in AAA/AA

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Nov 9, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It’s more than enough. Medlen is also much better than an emergency starter. There are plenty more pressing things to worry about, namely offense/defense/bullpen.

Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.

by TradeAndruw on Nov 9, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe we should Send D-Lowe on a ATV tour ride with Ronni G… Didn’t Gant breaking his leg on a ATV void his contract? I can’t remember i was just 11 yrs old.

by Buttafuco13 on Nov 9, 2009 11:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Yep, that’s what happened. He still had about the career he probably would have had after missing that season, but he never made anything close to that kind of money.

I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com

by cbwilk on Nov 9, 2009 11:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

help me with that cb,...

I actually thought of that the other day. Didn’t that pave the way for supposedly Chipper to take LF, but he tore his knee in spring training rounding first and it became Tony Tarrasco and someone else platooning?

by Mr. Sanchez on Nov 10, 2009 9:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I was going to put that in my post, but I wasn’t entirely sure and it was late so I didn’t bother to check. But, yes, the plan was to put Chipper, who had made his debut in September of 93, out in LF (they had said since he was drafted that if they put him in CF he could have been on of the best in the league), but he blew out his knee in ST. Ryan Klesko, who had just converted to LF himself, ended up getting most of the at bats in LF in 94, along with Tarasco, and Dave Gallagher, who was mostly the right handed part of the platoon. Tarasco might have gotten more playing time, but he severely hurt his shoulder/neck when he flipped second base on a steal attempt in St. Louis.

I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com

by cbwilk on Nov 10, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

i definately think we’ll be ok with Medlen and Redmond stepping in if needed so.

"Im a fullonrapist, I do men, women, autistic kids, children, the elderly." -Charlie Kelly

by Hcgadawgs on Nov 10, 2009 12:07 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

So you’re suggesting that we spend about 1/10th of our payroll on an emergency starter just in case, rather than spend that money on adding a power hitter that will play every game, or 2-3 quality relievers?

by Lennox on Nov 10, 2009 12:13 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

We should follow the Joba Rules with Hanson. Thats worked out well.

"Matt Diaz is a baseball player."-Joe Simpson

by 10-4 on Nov 10, 2009 8:39 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

As long as he doesn’t get attacked by midges he’s all good.

by soup du jour on Nov 10, 2009 9:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow

I am surprised everyone is so dismissive of the idea that the Braves could simply retain the depth that they have in the rotation….

Does nobody remember 2008?

by Andy Braves Fan on Nov 10, 2009 9:57 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

It is just a luxury we cannot afford

Yeah, it would be nice if we had the salary room that say the Red Sox did and could afford to keep 6 SP’s and Medlen and guys like Redmond and Jo-Jo who are fine for a spot start. But we just don’t have that kind of payroll room. If there are minor injuries, we have guys like Redmond and Jo-Jo who would be fine for a spot start or two and if there is a major injury we can lengthen Medlen and put him in. True, a rash of pitching injuries could sink us, but outside of the very high payroll teams, that could happen to any team without that team having any way of dealing with it. That’s the way the system works right now.

by cavebird on Nov 10, 2009 10:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I understand that

but you seem way too high on Redmond who has never pitched and Jo Jo who hasn’t pitched well. I also don’t think Medlen is more than a spot starter, but IMO he belongs in the bullpen.

It isn’t that I am completely adverse to the idea of moving a starter for the right player or players, but I am shocked that people are so dismissive of the idea of keeping the depth.

by Andy Braves Fan on Nov 10, 2009 10:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think it depends...

right now, everyone seems to think we can get a good return for Lowe, Kawakami, or Vasquez. In search of a complete team, with the pitching depth we had, there is no reason to keep a starter IF we can get a good return. Now, if we get low-balled badly in trade offers I’d much rather keep all 6 than give one up for pennies on the dollar.

by Mr. Sanchez on Nov 10, 2009 10:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Redmond and Jo-Jo are fine as spot starters

Which is all they would need to be. A long-term injury would put Medlen in, and while he might not be great, he would still probably better than most 5th starters in the NL. Remeber than you don’t even need a fifth starter but 20 times or so a year due to off-days, so really any of the three could do in a pinch.

There are two problems I see with keeping the depth: 1. You can’t keep everyone happy. We have six major league quality SP’s and five slots in the rotation. True, there could be injuries and probably inevitably will be some minor injuries, but until they come, you are going to have one unhappy camper. In April, it will be really tough, because you barely even need a fifth starter due to all the off-days. 2. It hand-cuffs us financially. Moving any of the starters, even for more or less nothing but salary relief gives us enough salary room for multiple bullpen arms and to resign LaRoche or another 1B, or even maybe a RH power bat for the OF. If we keep all six, basically, the best we can do is stand pat from last year. We weren’t bad last year, but we finished third. I think we should be shooting for more than standing pat. And true, Jason is coming, but to stand pat puts an awful lot of pressure on a 20 yr old to push us into the play-offs.

by cavebird on Nov 10, 2009 10:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

its about money. thats it.

"Matt Diaz is a baseball player."-Joe Simpson

by 10-4 on Nov 10, 2009 11:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You’re selling Medlen way short. He could be a MOR guy on many teams.

Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.

by TradeAndruw on Nov 10, 2009 11:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't forget JoJo

Well if FW can unload D-Lowe I think we should take whatever we can get with out having to eat a bunch of his 45 mil. The only thing is finding someone to take him. If a starter goes down we have Medlen. If worse comes to worst surely at some point Jojo is going to firgure it out. I would rather see him figure it out in a braves uni. Then seeing him come back around and shut us down every time he sees us with his new team.

by Buttafuco13 on Nov 10, 2009 10:33 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

surely at some point Jojo is going to firgure it out

and the award for worst logic ever goes to…..

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Nov 10, 2009 10:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Even the most resilient

Have stopped saying that after two years.

No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.

by royhobbs on Nov 10, 2009 10:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

i dont dispute that he can be a good pitcher… but saying it like that is ludicrous… he has some talent (or else he wouldnt be playing professional baseball) but i think he has mental makeup problems (my $.02)

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Nov 10, 2009 10:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

so i guess we can basically classify him as organizational filler at this point, or absolute worst-case-scenario spot starter at best?

"When life gives you lemons, just say 'F*ck the lemons,' and bail."

by Bravely going forward on Nov 10, 2009 9:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

And on that logic...

what’s Bruce Chen up to?

by Mr. Sanchez on Nov 10, 2009 11:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Probably working on something for NASA or someplace like that.

I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com

by cbwilk on Nov 10, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

He’s really Panamanian. Like Mariano Rivera.

No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.

by royhobbs on Nov 10, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I’m not sure what that means…but one of my friends is Panamanian and she’s super hot.

I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com

by cbwilk on Nov 10, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

This.

by Smoltz's Beard on Nov 12, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

What

Are you taking breather after 52 continues in Afghanistan?

No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.

by royhobbs on Nov 12, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ha, exactly. I told myself I wouldn’t after the last Modern Warfare, but I’m playing this one on Veteran and it’s fucking tough.

Just finished the infamous “airport level”.

by Smoltz's Beard on Nov 12, 2009 8:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

this really is a tough one, an argument could be made for both ways..

after the laroche, mclouth, and church trade along with the emergence of prado (so pretty much the second half of the season) our offense was good enough to make the playoffs…and many argued that we would have went far in the playoffs with that offense if we would have made it…so its very reasonable to say we could go into next season with the same lineup and contend for a pennant

on the other side of things you could say that the risk of having JoJo or Redmond make a few starts is worth the “big-bat” we could bring in if we traded one of the 6 starters away

"Im a fullonrapist, I do men, women, autistic kids, children, the elderly." -Charlie Kelly

by Hcgadawgs on Nov 10, 2009 1:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

We haven't agreed on much in the past

but your thoughts pretty much reflect mine on this one.

I am just not sure how comfortable I am with the idea of JoJo and/or Redmond making starts, even as a 5th starter.

by Andy Braves Fan on Nov 10, 2009 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Redmond; we'll see when he gets here...

Jojo, that is an easy no.

by Mr. Sanchez on Nov 10, 2009 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

also, is it unreasonable to say that Minor may actually be ready sometime next year…he could possibly be an option for some spot starts if needed. i mean we have options..

"Im a fullonrapist, I do men, women, autistic kids, children, the elderly." -Charlie Kelly

by Hcgadawgs on Nov 10, 2009 7:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know

We’ll see where Minor ends up, but I wouldn’t expect him to be ready till 2011 at the earliest.

by Andy Braves Fan on Nov 11, 2009 8:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Minor is down the list...

you’d assume Reyes, Medlen, a minor league signing like Campillo, Carlyle, Nunez, Halama, or Armas, Redmond, Parr, and probably even guys like Ortegano or Diamond would get a call first.

I’m not saying it couldn’t happen, but that’d mean an awful lot of injuries.

by Mr. Sanchez on Nov 11, 2009 9:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Mike Minor won’t pitch in the bigs any time before 2011.

"Are you tryin to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?"

by mvhsbball on Nov 11, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn’t think so either, but you never know. He’s pretty advanced and if he starts out at MB, there’s no reason he couldn’t end up with Mississippi, and once your in double-a you’re a phone call away. Like I said, I’d side with you on this, but I wouldn’t put a money bet on it.

I wrote a novel, it's about baseball, you should buy it: https://www.createspace.com/3407939
www.dropoutproductions.com

by cbwilk on Nov 11, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Remember, however, that we need to sign LaRoche

to have the offense that was supposedly good enough in the second half. That also assumes that Diaz continues to rake, although a Chipper rebound could make up for some of that. It also assumes that LaRoche figures out how to hit before July, which he hasn’t done in many years (although he is always hot as a fire cracker after the ASB, maybe we should have him play in a winter league, lol). And to resign LaRoche, I assume we need some money, especially if we intend to sign late inning relievers to fill the void left by Gonzo and Soriano (even if it is just resigning those two). Basically, we need to move the salary of one of the starters to afford the team we had at the end of last year. If we move Lowe we can afford a bit more. If it is just Kawakami, not so much more.

by cavebird on Nov 10, 2009 4:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

not sayin its the way to go but we could sign laroche without trading a starter away and sign a half way decent closer

"Im a fullonrapist, I do men, women, autistic kids, children, the elderly." -Charlie Kelly

by Hcgadawgs on Nov 10, 2009 6:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Where are we saving the salary to do that?

Just asking. I don’t see where we get the extra salary to sign a decent closer and LaRoche without moving a starter unless there is some payroll increase next year.

by cavebird on Nov 12, 2009 12:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

well we have like 15 mil to work with…sign laroche like 2/20 mil or 3/27 and you could get a matt capps who makes around 3 mil i believe or a bobby jenks for around 5 or 6

"Im a fullonrapist, I do men, women, autistic kids, children, the elderly." -Charlie Kelly

by Hcgadawgs on Nov 12, 2009 8:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Just a question ...

I am not saying I have decided my opinion on it yet. It just occurred to me that we really lack readily available SP depth if we make a trade. JoJo isn’t a spot starter right now….he could be an emergency starter..as if he started more then 2 games…we would have an emergency.

My point is don’t trade just to trade….that starter could have more value then we think. especially if that starter would be KK. he isn’t making as much and wouldn’t give us that much payroll help.

by calbers on Nov 10, 2009 2:51 PM EST via mobile reply actions 0 recs

Show me the Money

Lowe makes the most so, I say he’s got to go (yelled from my armchair;;LOL). In the “Arm Crash of 08” we had three “young” arms come in and pitched ok…Jurrjens, Parr, and Campillo…with of course JJ doing better than OK…The other two have some more to offer as a possible 5th starter (Campillo got hurt last year) but they both have MLB experience.
So, if we can make a move I say we have the depth or trade Lowe for a bat and if we have some cash left over I saw a name that has announced Free agency…Jon Garland…talk about an innings eater!..He had somewhat of a down year…working at the end of the season for the Dodgies who would not exercise his 10mil extention…
some bloggers think he can be picked up for 5mil a year.

by bravestatoo on Nov 10, 2009 3:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

that infamous '08

is an important point to bring up. Campillo did fine coming out of nowhere, but a; he wasn’t young at all (in his 30’s already, and b; he is no longer with the organization. Parr is coming back from injury and may be a bullpen option in 2010.

by Andy Braves Fan on Nov 10, 2009 3:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs