Some hotstove links to read and ponder

by Andy Braves Fan on Nov 9, 2009 12:09 PM EST

JC Bradbury on hot stove myths:

http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2009/11/hot-stove-myths/

Tim Dierkes of MLBTR lists his top 50 free agents and where he thinks they will go:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/11/2010-top-50-free-agents.html

Dierkes' offseason outlook for the Braves;
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/10/offseason-outlook-atlanta-braves.html

Ken Davidoff's rankings of the best GM's in baseball

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/ken-davidoff-s-baseball-insider-1.1278117/the-best-general-managers-2009-1.1574847

Joe Posnanski on the Hall of Fame:

http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/08/hall-of-fame-thoughts/#more-2807

Joe Posnanski on the Yankees Payroll:

http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/05/the-yankees-payroll/

Tim Lincecum a social pioneer?

http://wbx.me/l/?p=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbases.nbcsports.com%2F2009%2F11%2Ftim-lincecum-social-pioneer.html.php

Thought you guys and gals might be interested.

This FanPost does not express the views or opinions of Talking Chop.

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I read Davidoffs ranking of the GM’s and its a complete joke. Beane is number 1 again. The team hasn’t contended in 3 years because he keeps trading away their good players and signing has been players. The title of that list should be top 10 worst GM’s.

by jack dein on Nov 9, 2009 12:33 PM EST reply actions

Agreed

In addition to his teams not contending, he’s NEVER developed a hitter. Stock piling talented arms and acquiring scrap-heap players who take their walks doesn’t equal contending, anymore. It may have in 2001, but no longer do teams vastly undervalue OBP such that a small market team is able to contend exclusively using that theorem. Beane is dated and hasn’t really brought anything new to the table in awhile. The novelty of his philosophy is an interesting story, but now that the novelty is gone and his teams keep losing, I think it’s about time we quit discussing Billy Beane as one of the top GM’s in the league.

At the end of the day, there’s only 1 way for a small market team to contend: build from within. And Beane hasn’t shown he’s capable of doing so.

http://www.capitolavenueclub.com/

by PWHjort on Nov 9, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions

Agreed, as well

Beane fascinates me. Often times seeing the moves he makes, it makes me think of the story of the person who traded the little red paper clip and kept trading up and trading up until they ended up with a house. There are seasons in which Oakland starts off really well, and it looks like they can make a playoff run, but then in the middle of it all, Beane scraps his talent for yet another bevy of prospects and minor leaguers. Often times, I have to ask, just how much of the present are you willing to tank, in order for a future? And an uncertain one, at that?

No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.

by royhobbs on Nov 9, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions

f'ing this.

i’ve been saying this shit for years now. Bean is not a good GM.

"Are you tryin to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?"

by Scott Coleman on Nov 9, 2009 1:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions

It isn't that he isn't a good GM

it is more that, now that his style has revolutionized the way GM’s work, he hasn’t been as successful. Perhaps it is better to say that he is over-rated and frequently beat at his own game now.

I would like to add that, with teams like the Yankees and Red Sox around, I fear that it will become increasingly difficult for smaller market teams to compete simply because they play moneyball… with money.

by Andy Braves Fan on Nov 9, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions

My church youth group used to do that back n the day…we called it “Bigger and Better”. We would be devided into groups, and each group given a paper clip. We had something like 2 or 3 hours to do all of our trading. One time, one of our groups ended up with a car….no joke – a freaking car!

"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."

by justincredubil02 on Nov 9, 2009 2:37 PM EST up reply actions

what church is this? Blast! I’m too old for youth group!

"Matt Diaz is a baseball player."-Joe Simpson

by 10-4 on Nov 9, 2009 4:07 PM EST up reply actions

I agree with all the Beane commentary

But would like to add that any list in which Brian Cashman makes the top ten must be chucked out as unreliable from th outset. Any retarded money, in its final death throes, could do just as good a job when given the payroll he’s been given. Maybe he deserves a little inkling of credit for the Swisher fleecing, but that alone isn’t nearly enough to vault him into positon as one of the top GMs. And we all know he’s being judged on the CC/AJ/Tex trifecta, and again, any retard could throw money at everyone in sight when given said money from ownership. That’s no act of brilliance.

by J-Freak on Nov 9, 2009 3:09 PM EST reply actions

BTW, Posnanski Yankee payroll article is Genius. With a capital G. Pos is a god among men.

by J-Freak on Nov 9, 2009 3:41 PM EST up reply actions

Before I read the article I thought if Cashman and Epstein were listed it would deem the whole list moot. My fears were soon realized.

by Bobby Cocks on Nov 9, 2009 4:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions

Are Epstein and Cashman that bad?

Like the Yankee debate, I think a lot of people can’t seem to look past the moneybags they have access to, that they can’t see that they might actually be pretty well-thinking general managers. I read a lot of baseball books, and two particular books co-authored by guys like Tom Verducci and Mark Feinstein document the rise of both these GMs in particular in them.

Even just a few years ago, was a time when people didn’t know the names of general managers across the board. Epstein got a lot of attention because he was really, really young, and looked a lot like Zack Morris from Saved by the Bell, but he was also a very fresh thinker that wasn’t afraid to make controversial moves. One of the biggest moves he ever made didn’t even involve blowing a ton of money to sign someone – it was trading Nomar Garciaparra, and getting Orlando Cabrera and Doug Mienkiewicz to shore up the infield defense.

Before I begin to ramble, what it boils down to is the fact that prior to these guys’ rise to notoriety, both clubs were seemingly in this rut to just spend money to sign free agents, but without them, you’d have to ask if guys like Dustin Pedroia, Jacoby Ellsbury, Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain, Jonathan Papelbon would even be on the rosters today? Both teams could have made aggressive trades of these prospects, or off-season acquisitions to fill their needs instead of developing their own talent.

No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.

by royhobbs on Nov 9, 2009 4:57 PM EST up reply actions

I understand that argument

but you have to account for the money, because money allows these guys to cover any mistakes they to make with the biggest and baddest superstars that money can buy. They are both smart baseball guys for sure, so I don’t (personally) automatically discount the list because of their inclusion, but I think that you have to see the money as part of the picture.

by Andy Braves Fan on Nov 9, 2009 5:09 PM EST up reply actions

No doubt

The money does cover up a lot of potential mistakes, but as far as the development and promotion of talent goes, they haven’t made a whole lot. Hanley was a huge price to pay, but Josh Beckett did take them all the way. The Yankees signing of a baggage like Kei Ogawa was an expensive mistake, and it certainly tampered with the timeline for talent like Hughes or Chamberlain. I get your point though. They have a lot more safety net than most other GMs due to the money, but I had to say something about anyone who dismisses their inclusion just because of it.

No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.

by royhobbs on Nov 9, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions

It’s not necessarily the fact that they have money in and of itself- if they’d signed CC and still gone all the way, then yeah, OK, they made one expensive signing but built the team around him and went all the way. But when they sign all three of the top three free agents and then people go around talking about how Cashman is some genius who diagnosed the problem and came up with a brilliant solution, it’s bunk. He hasn’t done anything terrifically impressive. If Frank Wren had signed the trifecta for a half billion, I wouldn’t start calling him the greatest GM ever because of it. Again, ANYONE can throw money at all of the top free agents like that when they are given the budget. That takes no skill. Until he does something savvy that doesn’t involve shelling out the GDP of Panama to a player he’s not one of the top ten, just deal with it. I’m not saying he’s number 30, but I am saying he’s done nothing to prove that he is anything beyond thoroughly average.

by J-Freak on Nov 9, 2009 8:12 PM EST up reply actions

Fair enough

I’m a proponent of building from within, and the simple fact that Cashman was given more pull starting in 2005, and he immediately brought some value back to the Yankees farm system, where as prior to then, the Yankee way was to simply patch any and every hole with a prospect-for-veteran trade, or an expensive free-agent signing, and has since churned out developed talent like Chien-Ming Wang, Robinson Cano, Melky Cabrera, Phil Hughes and Joba. To me, that’s adequate to give him some credit for changing the way the Yankees operate somewhat. I can’t argue the quarter billion dollar spending spree from the year prior, but hey, baby steps.

No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.

by royhobbs on Nov 10, 2009 10:26 AM EST up reply actions

~~quarter~~ half billion spending spree. FTFY.

by J-Freak on Nov 10, 2009 11:31 AM EST up reply actions

Social pioneer?

Please. I’m not gonna crucify the kid for smoking pot, although I would be pretty unhappy if my pitcher (or my son) was caught speeding down the highway smoking a joint. I think it’s a bit much, however, to compare his possible place in history to that of Jackie Robinson. Well, more than a bit. A lot.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Nov 9, 2009 3:16 PM EST reply actions