The "Human Element"...
with Bud Selig so tied to keeping the "human element" in the game (aka mistakes), wondering what the feel around Talking Chop was on the issue of video replay.
How much should be allowed in replay? Keep things as is? Allow for replay on outs as well? Balls and strikes is too much, but this idea that it upsets the flow of the game, when there is so many pauses in baseball from shaking off signs, to meetings at the mound, to stepping out of the box, to the inevitable 3-4 minute theatrics of a manager arguing a call (where replay would likely save time wasted instead of increase it), seems just foolish at best.
So TCers, what do you think about the possibility of video replay and the "human element" of baseball?
1 recs |
52 comments
Comments
Tough question
This should turn out to be a pretty good/heated debate. I not sure i’m ready to say yay or nay just yet but I will say this much. If it is used I would like the “guy in the booth” to have all the power. I just think there is an inherent flaw in giving the power to the umpire, who is possibly responsible for making the wrong call to begin with, to make the decision whether to go to the booth. I guess my point is, why would an umpire who thinks he made the right call ask for help?
Having said all that, I also think we should implement a rule that allows the affected manager the right to walk on the field and slap the umpire who blew the call in the face. {Hint: note the sarcasm} In the case of the MIN/NYY debacle, the “foul ball” down the line that hit the players glove and still landed fair by 8 inches or more, you can’t tell me that umpire didn’t need a good bitch slap???
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
by scstrato on Oct 30, 2009 11:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking a guy in the booth too...
similar to football (or at least as football says); have a guy in the booth watching every call and a beeper on the crew chief if he sees a mistake. You’ve got 15-30 seconds before the next pitch, if not longer, which is time to watch a few angles if they can control the feed from each camera like say a TV producer in the truck. If the guy in the booth needs longer, he can also buzz and slow up for likely less than a minute to see what he needs to see and make a decision.
And the fair/foul creates another problem. Do you, as again with football, let the play run through and call fair or foul after? If you call a ball foul that should be fair, you cut the play short anyway and then comes a debate of what to do. Is it a double, a triple, a single? Would the runner have been thrown out at 2nd or 3rd? That becomes a pretty big question mark.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 30, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This
And the fair/foul creates another problem.
Is exactly the point I was trying to avoid. Case in point the fair ball Minnesota hit should have been ruled a ground rule double but what if it rattled around down in the corner? You got me there, I have no answer.
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
by scstrato on Oct 30, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well this is a very complicated subject. i definately do not think instant replay should be used on every questionable call, like a bang-bang play at first, because theres one of those about every game. and plus, seeing the theatrics of a pissed off manager is a part of the game, that i happen to enjoy ha. but i think instant replay should only be used on homeruns only and the instant replay should be initiated by the home plate umpire…
but here’s an idea that i personally dont agree with but am interested to see what yall think…
each manager has the ability to use instant replay on any call (except balls and strikes of course) once per series…
"Im a fullonrapist, I do men, women, autistic kids, children, the elderly." -Charlie Kelly
by Hcgadawgs on Oct 30, 2009 11:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
the manager can keep the theatrics...
but at some point in the show, say “Damn it, just go to replay”.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 30, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha, true…i just think if replays were allowed on force plays in what not…there would too many and it would get outta hand
"Im a fullonrapist, I do men, women, autistic kids, children, the elderly." -Charlie Kelly
by Hcgadawgs on Oct 30, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
force play and*
"Im a fullonrapist, I do men, women, autistic kids, children, the elderly." -Charlie Kelly
by Hcgadawgs on Oct 30, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
After last nights 7th-8th innings....
YES – SOMEONE should be able to review replays. Two major blown calls that could have greatly changed the outcome of the game.
by traphicg on Oct 30, 2009 11:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, realistically, the human element, especially when it comes to umpiring, sucks. More than anything, what annoys me is the umpires’ complete inability to call the proper strike zone. Bottom of the letters to the top of the knees, over the plate. How hard is that? It’s become below the belt to mid thigh, with whatever width the guy feels like that day.
So really, what baseball needs more than anything is more competent umpires. Maybe it’s time to fire a bunch of them again. A few years back when a bunch quit, thinking it would help their labor dispite, and MLB let them stay quit when things were resolved, the umpiring suddenly got a lot better.
As far as replay, I think it’s a good idea, and I think getting calls right is more important than hurting the umpires’ feelings. I don’t want it on every play, but certainly on things like whether or not a ball was fair or foul, if it was over the fence or not, and if a guy actually caught the ball.
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Oct 30, 2009 11:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Consider
Whenever there’s a questionable call, usually television production crews are quick enough for the analysts to analyze it on live television, and come to some sort of conclusion, usually before the next batter sees a first pitch. Like for example, last night, they had shown several replays showing that Utley was safe on the GIDP call before FOX could even cut to commercial.
There are just some calls made that seem so common knowledge or blatant, that the natural reactions give more than enough time for, what scstrato touches on, would be for a “man in the booth” to quickly review.
I for one am a proponent of trying to disrupt the flow of the game as little as possible, but I do agree that some tweaks need to be done in the name of fairness. I know the fragile-egos of the umpires globally won’t like the fact that they can be overruled, but in the event of some questionable outs, or foul-or-not-foul decisions, I think it would be beneficial to fairness if there was some quick reviewing that went on. Every game, every park has an official scorekeeper; why not sit someone next to that person, to be the official reviewer, in the event of a questionable call? In fact, why not have an umpire themselves up in the box, to make these calls, so that umps don’t get too butt-hurt?
Baseball games are generally three hours to begin with; what’s an extra minute going to change?
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Oct 30, 2009 11:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
In addendum
Because there’s nothing cooler than responding to your own post, I for one, would be greatly amused, at seeing an umpire up in the box, watching something on replay, and then making the animated hand signal hell, have it broadcast on the replay screen too, of THE correct call.
The fans would be holding their breath in general silent murmuring, and they would cheer or boo, depending on the outcome, and the annoying music or silence would hit a little late.
It’s like watching a football game, where a hometeam touchdown is challenged, and the ruling stands, and then the home venue has to fire the cannons/fly the mascot/do whatever TD celebration they do, after 60 seconds of review delay.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Oct 30, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wish umpires were more animated...
I hate when it’s hard to tell what they called behind the plate ball or strike.
Best one I saw was in the SEC, big loud STEEERRRIIIIIIIIKKKE and showy point. Loud BALLL! on balls. It was great and there was never any doubt what he called, which isn’t the case with some umps.
Unfortunately, it seems umps are getting too animated in a bad way, getting more confrontational with players and managers.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 30, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously. I’m always amazed how many umpires seem to be looking for a fight, especially in the minor leagues. I don’t pay much attention to who’s umping a game, but I sit close enough at my home park that I can usually recognize the guys, and there was one ump this year that chose to pick on a certain batter every time he was the home plate umpire, and it almost universally ended with the player getting ejected. The guy would follow the player into the dugout. It’s just a pathetic way to act.
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Oct 30, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bill Hohn’s protege?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 30, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It gets to the point where..
you almost wonder if the umps have bets on who they can throw out, or how many times they can throw a guy out.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 30, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's a reason
Why I always get excited when Tom Hallion is the home plate ump. He’s the one that’s screaming his balls and strikes, and when someone strikes out looking, he’s the one that does that massive dragon punch-like uppercut, while going HEEEYAAAA. When you’ve struck out, he makes you realize how badly you did.
There was this ump at the LLWS that got a lot of attention; this ump from the Philippines, that was making these huge animated out-at-first calls, that practically rivaled the Leslie Nielsen from Naked Gun.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Oct 30, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not crazy about the idea,
but a friend of mine suggested that it only be for boundary issues and plays at home plate.
Have a little bullpen phone with a light on top behind home plate so that the umpires know when a play is being reviewed, and can talk to official in the booth and make a quick decision.
by Bmacbandwagon on Oct 30, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I kinda like that idea
"Im a fullonrapist, I do men, women, autistic kids, children, the elderly." -Charlie Kelly
by Hcgadawgs on Oct 30, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
Have a little bullpen phone with a light on top behind home plate
How quickly do you thinik a Manny Acosta or Carlos Marmol would go all “Wild Thing” and destroy it. My money’s on the first pitch they throw …
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
by scstrato on Oct 30, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It'll be Blaine Boyer
But it will be completely on accident.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Oct 30, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But if you don't include blatant out/safe calls...
you aren’t fixing the whole problem. And the boundary issues create another problem as I mention above to scstrato.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 30, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Every stadium has one
Showing The Replay Ump on the Jumbotron might turn him into a celeb…I think whoever is up there should be like the “Banker” in Deal or Know Deal (Safe or out/ inplay or out) truely unknown or maybe just show his hands making the call? That way the officiating crew will not know who changed their bad call and their ere a little easier to take!
by bravestatoo on Oct 30, 2009 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that a more simple solution would be to hold umpire accountable for blatant missed calls. Judgement calls are one thing, and should be excused for “human element”, but balls and strikes, obvious missed calls (like in the Angels/Yankees game a week ago) and other things like that should be reviewed.
Publicly punish the umps, demote them, fine them. No more secret punishments. Hold them accountable. I think this would also improve the perception that Umps are to arrogant and beyond reproach. You know an officiating crew is doing a great job when you don’t even realize that they are at the game. That is how it should be.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 30, 2009 12:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
They used to
I talked about it a few times earlier in the season, and I actually was going to make a FP post about it at one point, but it got lost in the shuffle, but up until the 2009 season, there was an agency that monitored umpires. QuesTec, or something like that, they were mentioned often in accounts from Tom Glavine and Mike Mussina in the book “Living on the Black.”
QuesTec was only in selected parks, and they reviewed footage of every game, every ump’s performance, etc. Reprimands were privately, much to your dismay, but there was punishment for poor performance. Glavine especially talked about how he might get the low strike in QuesTec parks, but might not always in non-parks. Apparently cost got in the way in 2009, so they were nixed for a universal monitoring system, where if isn’t apparent, wasn’t nearly as efficient as prior years, because umps kind of got out of control this year.
It’s kind of like a bad outsourcing story.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Oct 30, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember the name “Quest-tech”, but I always thought it was just monitoring of balls and strikes and lead to our modern day “Pitch Zones” that every broadcast has.
It is interesting to think that in a game where several people make $20M+ per year and where the minimum salary is about $400K that “cost” could get in the way of anything.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 30, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nickels and dimes
Southwest Airlines made like $3M in profit one year, by pushing one alcoholic beverage extra per flight.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Oct 30, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
More Umps + Ump manned video booth?
Going for an possible answer early here. As the subject says, more umps, and a video booth, manned by another ump. Here’s how it works:
Standard four – HP, 1B, 2B, 3B
Line judge umps – end of LF line, RF line
Replay ump – in press box, near official scorekeeper.
The game will be played as normal, and the three additional umpires will likely never come into play, unless the questionable calls are made. The line judge umps, act like line judges in tennis would – to make sure that balls land either foul or fair, and their position at the end of the line puts them in a better position to see whether a ball clears the yellow line. Being in the outfield also can help get a better perspective on diving/shoestring catches, to make sure nothing was trapped, bounced, or faked. Their calls are law when it comes to declaring homers, ground rule doubles, or not-homers.
An ump in the booth is fed video footage of the game, and is essentially watching on a monitor instead of the field. Anything questionable, and they can overrule the ruling on the field, or if the field crew can’t confer on a decision, can be consulted.
What I also envision with this scenario is the ushering in of new umpires; since they essentially work their way up through the minors like players, the line-umps can be the less-experienced umpires, who work the lines for a few seasons, before being promoted into one of the letter-designated groups of four. And the booth umpire, since they will have authority on all questionable calls, can be the older umps with tenure; this is beneficial since their tenure gives them natural authority, and it also gives older umps a safer, more secure working condition, being in a climate controlled booth.
Thoughts? Flaws I should be aware of?
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Oct 30, 2009 1:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
what an awesome job the guy in the booth would have…
"Im a fullonrapist, I do men, women, autistic kids, children, the elderly." -Charlie Kelly
by Hcgadawgs on Oct 30, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And that's the point
It’s not just a ploy to make sure that Angel Hernandez or Tim McClelland is never behind home plate again, but it’s also kind of a reward, and a riding-off into the sunset for those umps who have served their time and put in the seasons. After decades of baking in the hot sun and taking criticism behind the plate, why not throw them a bone?
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Oct 30, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
would MLB want to pay them all though...
that’s a lot of extra salaries and benefits to pay when you’re almost doubling the size of crews from 4 working umps to 7.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 30, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds rough
But it’s not our concern as fans to care about what MLB has to pay the umps, when they’re earning profits upward of $5.5 billion each season. That is unless, they decide to universally up costs as not to ding their billion dollar safety nets. We just want fair games, with minimal blown calls.
According to this two year old article, a senior ump tops out at $350,000–but there’s no indication to what classifies a senior, so I have to assume that there are probably one per group (17) with slightly incrementally declining salaries for the others.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Oct 30, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea...
but you just know this would exactly be the case…
“they decide to universally up costs as not to ding their billion dollar safety nets.”
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 30, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Most definitely
Purely theoretical, and one of those “easy since it’s not our money” scenarios.
Maybe if Arte Moreno were the commissioner of baseball, ideas like this could come to fruition, since he’s one of the few owners out there that kind of gets it.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Oct 30, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moreno is probably as qualified,...
if not more so, than Bud is for the job.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 30, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are my hero. That sounds like a perfect idea.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 30, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like the idea of giving each team 1 or 2 chances to replay. The problem you run into is if you have a ball thats ruled foul but is fair and replayed which reverses it then where do the runners go. Most likely you just advance them one base but its still a interesting problem.
by jack dein on Oct 30, 2009 1:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Balls and Strikes
Why is this sacrosanct? Just let K-Zone or QuesTec make the call. You can still have a human ump back there to say Ball or Strike.
Here are Pujols's stats: 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000. That's right. He is batting a thousand, with a thousand OBP (naturally), and every hit has been a home run, and thus his OPS is a perfect 5.000.
by TradeAndruw on Oct 30, 2009 2:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think they should give each manager 3 challenges a game, in addition to automatic review on any questionable HR not costing a challenge.
To signal a challenge the manager has to run out on the field, turn his hat around backwards, and kick dirt on the umpire’s shoes. Optionally, he can pick up a base and throw it instead if the call in a safe/out call at that base.
by Lennox on Oct 30, 2009 2:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Selig can sit on it.
Somebody around here is more anal than the mom on 7th heaven. Freakin' A. lol
(self-appointed President of Yunel's Cartel~~~)
by Chief Noc-A-Homa on Oct 30, 2009 2:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
and then sit on it.
"Are you tryin to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?"
by mvhsbball on Oct 30, 2009 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Increase it
I was skeptical of vid replay at first, but for God’s sake let’s not have another offseason of officiating the way this one went. You can’t stop and review every single play, but give each manger two or three challenges per game. The Twins might be in the WS right now instead of the Skankees if some of those calls had been reviewed.
by J-Freak on Oct 30, 2009 8:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Tough question...
I think that baseball should definitely use replays to help with calls. Baseball should do it similar to football – man in the booth, and there must be indisputable evidence for a call to be overturned. Each manager could have one challenge per game, and the home plate umpire could initiate if he felt it very necessary.
Perhaps this kind of replay could only be used in postseason play…
You say to-mah-to, I say you're retarded.
by alligatorimpersonator on Oct 30, 2009 10:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
With all the recent horrible calls
I think it is time for instant replay. Why is it so bad if a manager argues 2 or 3 calls during a game, especially if they are game changing plays. As for baserunners advance them the number of bases that the slowest possible runner could get according to the batter who was up at the moment in question. Take game 2 of the WS for example. If they had gone to replay, they would’ve seen Howard never caught the ball, and since it didn’t make any logical sense for Damon to go past 1st, everyone moves up 1 base and Posada stays at second. Or you look at the ALDS with Mauer’s missed double. Had there been a man on first he moves to third because it is a double. Instant replay is needed now. There’s just way to many errors
(Yunel is still the Queen of Hearts)
by GoBravesNY on Nov 1, 2009 7:56 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Umpires
I personally hate K-Zone and that stuff. I like the idea that umpires strike zones vary, as long as they are consistant. They play a 7 game series, its not like football where one call can determine a Super Bowl game. I don’t think I have ever seen a series where I said wow, that team is playing much better than the other, but losing because of bad calls every game. If they put a guy in the booth for homeruns, fan interference, something like that I really don’t have a problem, but let the umpires make the calls on the field.
by wcubmac on Nov 2, 2009 11:41 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
So let mistakes be mistakes...
even when they can easily be corrected?
by Mr. Sanchez on Nov 2, 2009 1:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe not a world series, but what about the ALCS this year? I thought the Halos got screwed royally.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Nov 3, 2009 9:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Easily be corrected. How can you correct a line drive down the line, where would the runner have ended up, would he have gotten thrown out? How many times could a coach contest plays? Slowing down the game of baseball is the last thing the games needs.
by wcubmac on Nov 2, 2009 3:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, cause adding 10 minutes to a 4 hour snail crawl ...
makes a huge difference. Replays actually can go quickly, a lot quicker than some manager rants.
by Mr. Sanchez on Nov 2, 2009 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I personally liked the movie “the human element” Bruce Willis did a good job, and the red headed chick was really hot
I thought hurricane season was over........
by bravesguy311 on Nov 3, 2009 11:24 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

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