Worst Braves Trades Ever
by Dale Murphy for HOF on Oct 18, 2009 1:08 PM EDT
253 comments
I was thinking that since we are approaching free-agent signings and hot stove league time that we should list the trades that the Braves have historically made that you feel set the team backwards. I have my top 3.
3. December 13, 2003. Atlanta acquired J.D. Drew and Eli Marrero from St. Louis. The Cardinals, who were looking to reduce payroll, received the Braves' top pitching prospect in Adam Wainwright, as well as Ray King and Jason Marquis
2. July 30, 2007. Braves get Mark Teixeira and Ron Mahay from the Rangers , while Texas acquired C/1B Jarrod Saltalamacchia, SS Elvis Andrus, and three pitchers: Neftali Perez, Matt Harrison, and Beau Jones in the deal for Teixeira.
1. August 28, 1983. Brett Butler and Brook Jacoby were sent by the Braves to the Cleveland Indians to complete an earlier deal (the Braves traded players to be named later and $150,000 to the Indians for Len Barker). This trade greatly affected my youth and was the first time I was made at the Braves (as a 9-year-old boy).
Thoughts? What are your worst Braves trades ever?
If you guys like this topics, we can always doe the best trades next....
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Neftali Feliz
Not perez
MATT DIAZ IS THE F**K*NG MAN.
They made me change my signature...
by nick9314 on Oct 18, 2009 1:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
we did trade for...
mike hampton….
My opinion cant be wrong. It's my opinion. Those who don't like it can piss up a rope.
by ryan c on Oct 18, 2009 1:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Mike Hampton who we got for… Tim Spooneybarger and paid less than 30M for almost 3 years worth of decent pitching. It was frustrating to have him hurt so much the last couple years but we recovered much of his big salary years in insurance money and the total value wasn’t that bad of a deal.
"Four of us wolves, running around the desert together in Las Vegas, looking for strippers and cocaine..."
by jeg on Oct 18, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree it wasn’t as bad as it seemed but after he had the surgery we couldn’t go out and get a big name just in case he was healthy and pitchin good cause then we would have had to pay his entire salary so that did burden us to a degree.
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 18, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would have helped if you would have spelled better man. Its not awful spelling but a few is off. When you write up a fanpost or whatever you want people to read it and get the point of the conversation not see simple spelling errors and be like come on man spell better lol.
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 18, 2009 2:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
OMG
Not again, PLEASE not again????
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
by scstrato on Oct 18, 2009 2:43 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
I wonder what people would bitch about if all the prospects we traded turned out to be busts…
They might not always work out like that, but at the time of these trades we got what we wanted/needed to better position ourselves in a playoff race.
.
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 18, 2009 2:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
get that logic and reasoning and sound common sense outta here… it has no place
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 18, 2009 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really? How does the Tex deal work then?...
never make a playoffs either the season of, or the next year when we had him for what could have been that entire season? So no playoffs, and what is essentially a deacde plus Gold Glove caliber fixture at SS, a couple Ps, one of whom is in their starting rotation in his early 20s, the other is a fireballer who could either start or close, and in return we get Casey Kotchman and Stephen Marek?
There is such a thing as a bad trade, even whe prospects turn out better than expected.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 19, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Read better
They might not always work out like that, but at the time of these trades we got what we wanted/needed to better position ourselves in a playoff race.
I didn’t say that every trade we ever made automatically put us in the playoffs. Also, I didn’t say that we have always made GREAT trades.
Swo is right…
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 19, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I read fine...
“to better position ourselves in a playoff race.”
We were on the outside looking in with Tex, get him, and fail to make the playoffs. The following year, he lacks power until June, at which point we are well behind and essentially out of the playoff race. So given what you said, how did Tex “better position” this team for the playoffs when we miss both times and his lack of power last year helped contribute to that fact?
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 19, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK...this should be the final point that settles our little disagreement.
We replaced a first base platoon consisting of Scott Thorman and Craig Wilson with Mark Teixeira. Off the top of my head, thats replacing a ~.180/.260/.320 “double-trouble” with a .300/.400/.600 switch hitting monster.
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 19, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But that wasn't the disagreement...
no one said he wasn’t a better player than what we was there at the time. The question was how did he “better” our post season standing? We were 4 games behind the Mets, playing .524 overall at the beginning of July; 3.5 games out at .528 on Aug 1, and ended the year 5 games back of Phily still 4 games back of the Mets with a worse winning % than on July 1 or August 1. We had a potential full season of him in 2008, and his early struggles didn’t exactly help then. That was the disagreement, “to better position ourselves for the playoff rest”. He was a better 1B than what we had, but that improvement never made an impact on the club’s standing for the post season in either season he was a part of the roster.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 19, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In short...
we weren’t a playoff team without him. We weren’t a playoff team with him. So at what point did Mark Teixiera “better position [the Braves] in a playoff race”?
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 19, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK
I understand that adding Tex didn’t put us in the playoffs.
AT THE TIME OF THE TRADE, we needed a spark, we needed better production from first base to have a chance of making the playoffs. We acquired one of the best first basemen in the league. JOB DONE. I never said this was a good trade long run or anything, other than it was what was needed to be done AT THE TIME.
To better position your team for the playoffs, you must get rid of your weaknesses. We did that and got one of the best first basemen. Although we never made the playoffs, Tex automatically increased our chances from day 1. It didn’t work out like we planned and we didn’t win games we needed, but we were a better team.
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 19, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And furthermore
When Tex was acquired, it wasn’t assumed that the Braves could not re-sign him. That became apparent later…
If the Braves had been able to keep Tex, the trade would not be so bashed. Hindsight…
by Andy Braves Fan on Oct 19, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that the idea behind the Tex trade was solid.
The fact that he had just turned down an 8 year 150 million dollar extension from Texas and he was a Boras guy should have made it very clear that he was going to at least test the free agent market.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Schmidtxc on Oct 19, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But those assumptions...
a) that he would resign, and b) that he was the missing link between the Braves and making the playoffs, were in my mind at least, ill conceived and mistaken.
Borasbot is as Boras demands (see him refusing Texas when we weren’t in a position to offer any more, if even that much), and there was a much bigger hole to fill on that team that just getting better at 1B. If that was the difference between the Braves and a World Series, I’d agree. But we weren’t near that point, and gave up a king’s ransom to get just good enough to still miss the playoffs. That trade stunk from all ends, from the price paid, to the failing to make the post season, to the failing to resign him, to the pittance that came back when he left. Yes, it is 20/20 hindsight, but that trade is absolutely abysmal and a failure from all angles.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 19, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never said he was the missing link...
I said that we acquired a top first baseman, and replaced the weakest part of our team (giving up only one player with a small amount of MLB service time).
You are forgetting about the injuries that plagued us AFTER the Tex trade. Renteria went down like a game after we got Tex (that hurt hard). Gonzo also went down for the count. The next season, we had the top 4 of our starting rotation spending most of the season on the DL. We also lost Soriano and Moylan. I don’t think any team could be successful when you have 4 of your starters and your best relief pitchers go on the DL. Smoltz, Glavine, and Huddy had season enders, Hampton was Hampton being Hampton…
No telling what would have happened if those injuries didn’t happen. We might of even resigned Tex…
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 20, 2009 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
(giving up only one player with a small amount of MLB service time).
Before you blast me for this, I meant that we only had to give up one guy that was currently contributing to the major league roster. Of course, we also gave them the 4 prospects.
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 20, 2009 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looking back, it is almost laughable that Salty was the centerpiece of that deal…in that respect, Texas got ripped off…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 20, 2009 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will say this though JS did give in, in that trade. I personally think Texas would have done it with Lillibridge in the deal instead and Braves were pushin to put him in instead of Andrus, the thing is we were really bidding against OURSELVES to be honest i mean reports were Angels got out of it and other teams and it was basically us or he stays in Texas. Now of course they never HAD to deal Tex but I seriously doubt they would get a better package with Lillibridge in the deal than they would have gotten in the offseason. JS gave in and made the deal he got a lil bit worried and just gave in bottom line. Obviously if Lillibridge would have worked out and Andrus wouldn’t have then that would have been bad in itself looked at but i think most liked Andrus wayyyyyyy more than Lillibridge at least i did. Thats prolly the bigger argument you can make about this lol.
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 20, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Texas was adament about us including Salty, Harrison, and Andrus. Beau Jones was the next player added to the deal. Feliz is the one I’m not so sure about. It seemed like the deal was almost complete 4-1, with Texas wanting one more young prospect. I really didn’t expect them to announce Feliz’s name (and was really disappointed). I felt that we could have gotten away with that trade without including Feliz.
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 20, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah but i mean if it was Salty, Harrison, Lillibridge, Feliz, and Jones i mean i just dont see them passin that up i really dont. I mean at the time Salty had soooo much hype, some compared Harrison to a young Tom Glavine, Lillibridge was solid in the minors looked like a legit starting SS in the majors, Jones looked like a legit RP, Feliz was the unknown that could bust or have extremely high potential. I see them takin that deal.
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 20, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Dale Murphy for HOF posed this list in a good manner. He wasn’t bitching or complaining, just stating what he thinks were some bad trades. You can’t predict which will be good or bad trades, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t ever discuss them.
Dale Murphy for HOF, I think you should follow up with a list of best trades.
I’ll be honest, if these are the worst, then I think Braves management has done a pretty terrific job.
I didn’t even know about the Brett Butler trade.
by Sparhawk on Oct 18, 2009 7:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
we should have a post on how happy we should all be that the Detroit Tigers are in Major League Baseball.
President of Marteeeny's Weeenies: The Official Fan Club for Martin Prado.
WE WANT PRADO AT 2B IN 2010!
by mvhsbball on Oct 18, 2009 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ya looking back that was a horrid trade for the Tigres…
a sucky season of Renteria for Jurrjens and Gorkys (who ended up being a bit of a bust but that doesn’t really change how awesome that trade was)
and then you can make the case for us raping them for Smoltz, but i wouldn’t….The Smoltz trade is a trade you have to make when you think you can win. you trade for established talent and sacrifice some of your future.
Alexander went 9-0 in 11 starts for the Tigers in ‘87. his WHIP was 1.008, his ERA + in that time was 278… he was filthy and helped the tigers immensely… it just so happens Smoltz turned into one of the most dominant pitchers of the era, but no one could have guessed that at the time. The trade is almost identical to the Teixiera trade, which is why it continue to baffle me as to why everyone thinks the Teixiera trade was so bad. Teixiera was exactly what we need offensively (unfortunately we still needed pitching), sure we gave up some prospects, but we didn’t know 2 of them would work out (and honestly they haven’t worked out just yet, although their future does look bright).
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 18, 2009 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how in any possible way
is gorkys a bust? hes still in the minors and still developing…
by BravesRaleigh on Oct 18, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No power, no plate discipline,strikes out a ton and hasn’t really improved since 2007.
President of Marteeeny's Weeenies: The Official Fan Club for Martin Prado.
WE WANT PRADO AT 2B IN 2010!
by mvhsbball on Oct 19, 2009 12:19 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Im still not gonna say he is a bust cause as a CF alone with his defense i think he still has a shot. Now if he has to move to LF or RF then he better at least develop more gap power along with a few homers. But yeah his K/BB is not good for a leadoff type and his SB ratio is very very alarming. I still haven’t given up on him but he has to start puttin things together to be a solid guy.
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 19, 2009 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and from a Braves perspective...
he got flipped for mcLouth. So his problems developing don’t mean much from a selfish perspective. Looking at it from solely a Braves point of view, you dealt Renteria, Locke, and Morton for Jurrjens and McLouth. That’s a damn good deal.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 19, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do you not get the sentiment on Tex?
he didn’t help the team make the playoffs in either season he was on the roster, and we gave up a boatload of quality prospects, only to flip him 12 months later for a very light hitting 1B and some lefty reliever that won’t make it out of the minors.
The Tex deal works IF we make the playoffs either year he was with the club. But we don’t, so it was a complete waste of those prospects and an extremely poor return on the investment.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 19, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he didn’t help the team make the playoffs in either season he was on the roster,
your clearly joking here right
in 07 his line was 317/404/615
in 08 his line was 283/390/512
please go find the 1B who would have done that during that time span that we had access to.. if you can’t then Mark T helped us… us not making the playoffs has nothing to do with his performance.. unless yo uassume Mark could have posted a Bonds line from the mid 00s to the tune of a 500 OBP or something and in OPS in the1300… in which i submit ur right Mark blew ass
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 19, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How am I joking?...
by all means, explain to me how we made the playoffs either of those seasons?
The point seems to be flying right over your head here Swo. We weren’t making the playoffs with or without him, so why pay such a high price when either way you aren’t making the post season. You’re right, not making the playoffs had nothing to do with his performance. In 2007, you couldn’t ask for better production and we finished with a worse record than when he arrived and lost ground on the Mets, let alone the eventual division winning Phillies. In 2008, he was lacking power until June by which time injuries to the pitching staff had taken its toll and we were so far back he was dealt (for two players probably worse than what we’d have obtained if we simply let him walk and got back draft picks).
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 19, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Explain how our pitching collapse was MT’s fault? MT did everything expected and more, but the pitching let this team down.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 19, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blame whatever you want for why they didn't make the playoffs...
but the fact remains, he was brought in to help make the playoffs, and the club didn’t either year, plus gave up a HUGE premium for him in young prospects (no, they won’t all pan out, but when you send them that many highly regarded kids, the law of averages mean at least one should make an impact) and got back a MUCH weaker package in return.
Yes, it’s 20/20 hindsight, but that is the only way we can look back on these things, and this one turned out about as bad as possible.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 20, 2009 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, you are forgetting the part where we flipped Kotch for Roche, who just may resign with us. You can’t just point out the bad to make your point.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 19, 2009 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
theoretically he could have resigned with us whether we traded for him or not… jsut sayin
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 19, 2009 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Roche may, or may not...
which would have been the case if we sent Kotchman to the Red Sox for him or not. So that doesn’t really help your point either.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 20, 2009 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No it wouldn’t have. We would be stuck with Kotch and not have been shopping for a FA 1B – unless of course, we then traded Kotch and brought in even more people to the discussion.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 20, 2009 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't offer Kotch arbitration,...
so then we aren’t stuck with him and are in the same position we are today hoping to sign LaRoche as a free agent. That was easy.
And the original premise was not trading for Tex, which means he’s not flipped for Kotch, so where does the “we would be stuck with Kotch” idea come into play?
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 20, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The J.D. Drew trade hurts right now because of the year wainwright had, but i promise the Texeria trade will hurt us much more in a few years.
Salty – David Ross makes up for this but he still would be great to have off the bench and a sport starter at first
Harrison – He was very productive this year and looked to show alot of promise. This would give us mroe confidence in letting go one of the 6 pitchers we have to clear up some cap room.
Elvis – He could have stayed in AAA until chipper retires. Yunel and Prado up the middle til then and that allow time for the best defensive shortstop in the AL to work on his hitting. when Chip calls it quits move prado to 3B and Elvis slide right in. He’s still young and that would benifit him alot.
Most Importantly
Feliz – how nice would it have been to have him coming out of the bullpen down the stretch throwing triple digits like he was for Texas. this kid is the real deal.
i understand everything is 20/20 in hindsight and most of these prospects were suppose to be this good. also i’m not upset with this deal or regret it. i think it was the right time to make a big splash and a big move and we did. still the question was which was the worst trade for the braves and in the end that is it. i would love to have them back but we took a chance with Tex and it didnt pay off but you have like the effort.
by JKowalek on Oct 18, 2009 9:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Salty – how would having a bad hitter off of the bench be a good thing?
Harrison – how productive can one be while on the DL?
Andrus – would be nice to have as a possible “move-yunel-to-third” option, but Yunel is solidly our shortstop and a better one than Elvis
Feliz – Yeah, he would be nice.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 19, 2009 2:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
dude relax he admitted that he didnt think it was a bad trade at the time… everything he said is generally correct.. and i respect that he at least acknowledges that grading trade in hindsight doesnt make a lot of sense
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 19, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everything except the Salty and Harrison parts you mean.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 19, 2009 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Notable:
Feliz was 19 at the time of the trade and as I recall in low-A ball at best. The rate of success (meaning transition to the Show) from that age is so low, there was no way that he could have been predicted. As it stands now, he still may never become a superstar.
by Andy Braves Fan on Oct 19, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Notable:
Feliz had insane gas then, and it’s not like his current production is some shock that no one saw coming. What we are currently seeing is exactly the same as his supposed uspide was at the time of the deal.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 19, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the point is that upside is present in coutnless guys with simialr attributes (maybe not necessarily the 100 gas, but mid 90s sure) and they don’t make it out of AA
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 19, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
100 vs. mid 90s
is a significant difference. Guys throw mid 90s, not all of them but quite a few and at least dozens. How many people in the bigs can reach triple digits? Can even 5 hit that mark, especially with the regularity of Feliz? Hitting it is rare, hitting it routinely as Feliz was out of the bullpen means you can be something special. While some fail, and “there is no way that he could have been predicted”, what he’s doing now is not a shock and was predicted by quite a few as exactly what he was capable of when the trade occured.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 19, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and plenty of pitchers
who can pitch into the triple digits never make it. Guys who can hit triple digits also can break down. A million things could happen, and still could happen. Hell, Francisco Liriano was the heir apparent to Johan Santana when this trade happened. Where is he now? I completely understand that the Texeira trade wasn’t optimal, but it is still way too early to say that Feliz is a superstar, that Andrus is a perennial all-star, or many other implied predictions. Hindsight is 20-20, and Feliz looks great now, but there still is no guarantee he will work out.
by Andy Braves Fan on Oct 19, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tex Trade.
Seriously people? Beau Jones stalled in Double-A, Matt Harrison has been glorified garbage at the major league level, Jarrod Saltalamacchia is regressing from bad to worse, Elvis Andrus still can’t hit and Neftali Feliz has pitched all of 31 innings (all in relief) against top competition. So, to rephrase, we lost two mediocre minor league arms, an average back-up catcher, an all-glove no-bat shortstop and a quality relief pitcher. Moreover, the only one of these guys who could challenge for a spot on the 2009-10 Braves is Feliz. Why the hell are people upset about this trade?! I haven’t even gone through to highlight just how good our return turned out to be (including overlooked pieces like Brett DeVall and Adam LaRoche) and I still think this deal is no big whoop.
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Oct 18, 2009 10:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
because we coulda made a better deal for someone who we could actually keep around instead of a half year of tex..and your way underating these players
by Hcgadawgs on Oct 18, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looks like a fairly spot on evaluation to me. Would love to hear your valuation of them since you feel otherwise.
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
by scstrato on Oct 18, 2009 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wasnt half a year
was a year and a half
by BravesRaleigh on Oct 18, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uhhh
It was actually 1 year. July 2007 to July 2008
President of Marteeeny's Weeenies: The Official Fan Club for Martin Prado.
WE WANT PRADO AT 2B IN 2010!
by mvhsbball on Oct 19, 2009 12:20 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
because of extenuating circumstnaces…like our pitching dying in 2008… we traded for a year and a half of Teix
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 19, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was counting the minutes after reading this to when you would come around. This damn thing just won’t die, will it?
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
by scstrato on Oct 18, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i wanted to request this post be deleted…but thought it was too harsh
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 19, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Tex trade was made to win “now”. Whether you agree with it or not, JS took his shot. Tex played well, but the team had no pitching, so things didn’t work out. I don’t think it’s productive for people to still complain about it, nor do I think it’s necessary to devalue the prospects who were traded just to try to win the argument. The trade happened, both sides got something from it, and I think we should leave it at that.
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
by buzzdeadwax on Oct 19, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
While I agree with you general sentiment
And most of your evaluations, I think you’re shortchanging Andrus and Feliz a bit here. Sure, Andrus was somewhat of an “all glove no stick” SS this year, but the guy was barely 21 years old and playing at the major league level. I think what he accomplished was damn impressive considering his age and potential to grow.
Ditto on Feliz. The guy obviously still has a lot to prove, but he showed flashes of being absolutely brilliant this year, and the sky seems to be the limit with him. If he ends up moving into the starting rotation and dominating, this trade is going to really sting.
But, I don’t fault JS for making the move when he did, and I agree that it’s impossible to predict how teenage arms with “tons of upside” are going to pan out.
by get swoll yunel on Oct 20, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
andrus is gonna be an allstar shortstop one day…he’s only 21 and hit around .270 in his rookie season and played great defense…what more do you expect out of a 21 year old rookie? not saying he’s better than yunel but we coulda played our cards a little better than we did with him because he has a ton of value
salty is still young and showed alot of potential..he’ll be a solid starter before its all said and done..
matt harrison is a solid lefty who could easily be a number 4 or 5 starter in a year or two
and feliz is a 21 year old who can throw triple digits and posted an ERA under 2 in his rookie season..he will be either a dominant starter if they choose to go that route or a shutdown closer…
these guys are simply to young to downgrade them like that…particularly feliz and andrus…their potential is unmeasurable at this point in their careers…even their minor league numbers support it
by Hcgadawgs on Oct 18, 2009 11:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Harrison is damn garbage please quit talkin about this guy like he has potential please. People dont like JoJo Reyes so why like Harrison?
Feliz had a dominant fastball but was very very young and anything could have happened and plus he only had that fastball nothin much else that was too good. So anything could happen.
No doubt this wasn’t the best deal in the world but stuff like this happens it definately didn’t kill us thats for damn sure. I think DuVall is gonna be better than Harrison or at least has a chance. I mean i remember people talkin about Salty to the Pirates for Snell straight up but Pirates didn’t wanna do it i guess it was a rumor, maybe it was blogger rumor lol but either way we could have dealt him for somebody that bombed anyway so you never know.
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 18, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s DeVall, not DuVall.
Q: If on-base pct is so important then why don't they put it on the scoreboard? -Failcoeur
A: Because the Braves don't want to show their fans how bad you suck.
by timmy3 on Oct 20, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
whatever. Not like im the only one to misspell a damn players name lol.
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 20, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
andrus is gonna be an allstar shortstop one day
these guys are simply to young to downgrade them like that
Nice to see facts backing your claim instead of unsubstantiated opinion…
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
by scstrato on Oct 19, 2009 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats all this post is opinion? how the hell do you give facts supporting something that hasn’t happened yet. i mean be an asshole if you want but at least make a little sense when you do it..
by Hcgadawgs on Oct 19, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Statements of fact vs. opinion
How does me pointing out how ridiculous your claims are equate to me being an asshole? You made statements of fact:
andrus is gonna be an allstar shortstop one day
That’s not an opinion and I’m asking you to base your claim on facts. The fact is prospects have little value which is why it takes 3 or 4 or even 5 to land top notch proven MLB talent no matter how young or highly rated they are. Another fact is the simple truth that most prospects never reach their “potential”, especially highly touted ones. So calling any player a sure fire all star is nothing more than prospect homerism. Saying you believe he will be a future all star is far more reasonable.
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
by scstrato on Oct 20, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not to be a dick, but you may want to clarify that a bit… cuase u really confused ur meanign with your words.
I think we wanted to say “That is an opinion and I’m asking you to base you claim on facts”
among other things… just trying to protect you from allegations you didn’t imply
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 20, 2009 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
The OP is talking about Andrus as if he is already an all star when in fact he is far from it. His value lies entirely in his defense at this point in his career and he doesn’t project to add much offense. I’m not saying he has no potential, just that potential carries little value.
My second point, and I guess it’s more to the point, is prospects just aren’t as valueable as a major leaguer who has proven himself. The OP said:
these guys are simply to young to downgrade them like that
That fact is that no matter how young a prospect is nor how good they “project” to be, major league GM’s don’t value prospects as much as proven production. The sheer number of minor leaguers who were projected to be all stars or elite players who have never come close to reaching their potential is astounding. I don’t know the exact number but I would guess that this group of prospects out rank those who reach their potential by at least a 10 to 1 ratio. So anyone who values what Texas has gotten out of Salty, Harrison, Andrus and Feliz so far over what we received from Tex is mis-judging the trade.
Better?
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
by scstrato on Oct 21, 2009 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How long are we going to stick to minor league thoughts?...
Jair Jurrjens is a 3 or 4 starter at best? Sure, although his time in the big leagues screams otherwise.
Elvis Andrus is all glove and no stick, despite a respectable batting average and finishing in the top 6 of the AL in triples and steals. For someone his age, he actually had a pretty solid season at the plate. But let’s stick to that minor league rep when he was 17 years old that the kid can’t hit.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 21, 2009 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't kid yourself
Your Jurrjens example helps prove my point. Minor league performances and scouting reports mean exactly a “hill of beans” until a prospect gets to the majors and proves himself.
As for your cherry picking, I wasn’t referring to his minor league rep. I am referring to his major league numbers this year. His 267/.329/.373/.702 line isn’t exactly “all-star” potential and when you consider this is inflated by his home split stats it’s even less compelling. Here’s some more food for thought:
There were roughly 223 players who acquired more than 400 plate appearances this year. Of those 223 here is how Andrus’ ranked:
Hits – 137th (not bad for a 21 year old)
2B’s – 194th (he only had six more doubles than the last place finisher)
3B’s – 18th (again not bad for a 21 year old)
HR’s – 190th (only 6 more than last place finisher Juan Pierre who had ZERO)
AVG – 135th
OBP – 153rd
SLG – 194th
If that isn’t the definition of an all glove no stick major leaguer at this point in his career I don’t know what is.
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
by scstrato on Oct 21, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and Boom goes the dynamite
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 21, 2009 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was 21 for little more than a month...
so “not bad for a 20 year old” should be the line. And again, he’s not a power hitter. He has to raise the avg, and obp, but no one is expecting him to be a power hitter. He has decent speed, and the ability to, once he starts making better contact, to get more 2Bs and 3Bs. And in the second half of the season, his line becomes .280/.342/.395/.737, and that’s not bad considering his age (20/21). He’s been younger than pretty much everyone else in the league at every level he’s played at in professional baseball. Yes, he has a home stadium lean, but he’s going to be playing in that stadium for a long time. His numbers as a 20 year old rookie for the most part would have been among the better seasons for a no hit SS like Ozzie Smith. Raffy Beliard would kill for Andrus’ stick. He’s not gonna be Derek Jeter, but he’s not bad.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 22, 2009 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody is saying that he hasn't been very good for a rookie
But until he plays another season or two and puts up above average production, I have a hard time buying it as well. Remember, Jeff Francoeur put up 1 1/2 seasons before he turned into a pumpkin…
by Andy Braves Fan on Oct 22, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think you can say one way or the other on Andrus...
at his age, he did pretty well. Francouer is a crap comparison because who has his same approach (or lack of) at the plate? I ‘m not saying he’s gonna be someone people pitch around, but his second half numbers were solid. He’s not a power bat, but as he makes more contact that speed can be very usedful. In the least, he can be Omar Visquel like at the plate, which wasn’t dangerous on his own, but did plenty of damage hitting 2nd, getting on at a strong clip and using his speed in front of the big boppers Cleveland had at the time.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 22, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
SIDE NOTE
is Omar a HOF….he has a trophy case full of Gold gloves and is approaching 3000 hits
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 22, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting, i never really viewed him as a Hall of Famer i mean very good but not hall worthy but you know with the GG’s and IF he gets 3000 hits then that pretty much automatically gets you in. If he doesn’t get 3000 hits then its still up in the air.
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 22, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He needs almost 300 to get 3000, and since he hasn’t gotten that many in the last 3 years combined, it seems unlikely he’ll get them. But, if you look at it, he had a good bit better career than Ozzie Smith.
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Oct 22, 2009 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ya i dont think he’ll ever get 3000, but 2700 is nothing to sneeze at… and he definately has the glove.. i think its very close and he might get in eventually
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 22, 2009 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is HOF in my book
Best defensive SS since Ozzie (check the stats, he really is), and second most hits by a SS in history behind Derek Jeter.
Will he make it? I dunno, Murphy isn’t in the Hall yet, so I don’t hold out hope that the baseball writers of America will do whats right, but his is a hall of famer.
by Andy Braves Fan on Oct 23, 2009 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but Murphy isnt a HOF and I will take the heat for that if need be
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 23, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought the HOF was for the most dominating players of their generations. Nobody was more dominating than Dale Murphy in the 80s. Hall Of Famer. He’s way better than Jim Rice.
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Oct 23, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but Jim Rice doesnt deserve to be in the HOF either… so using him as your pedastal to reach the HOF is a fallacy, despite the fact that Rice is in the HOF
I’ve gone through this a couple of times and I don’t think Rice deserves to be in. ANd further Murphy only had 7 years that would be considered HOF worthy. that isnt a HOF resume.
I know Koufax was only dominant for 7 years and he made the HOF, but the difference is that Koufax had 7 of the best years ever in the history of baseball. Murphy was really good for 7 years, but its far from the best 7 year stretch ever. More importantly I can think of a couple players who were better than Murphy in the 80s (they are all in the HOF, but that doesnt change the fact that he wasn’t the msot dominating playerin the 80s)
1. Ricky Henderson
2. Mike Schmidt
3. Robin Yount
4. Eddie Murphy
5. George Brett
6. Wade Boggs
so first to say he was the most dominant player in teh 80s is highly misleading, I barely even looked into this and listed 6 (2 of which is in the NL)
he was really only dominant from 1982-1987…and don;t get me wrong he was really good, but in 1981 he posted a OPS+ of 101, 1988 a 106, and 1989 a 89.
Also, I dont think the HOF is for the most dominating players of thier generation… it should be the most dominating players ever (if that means i have to exlclude the 80s bc the 80s were weak for baseball then so be it).
To be fair, i never saw Murphy play, as I never saw anyone in the 80s play…but looking at stats and hearing accounts from others I dont think he belongs in teh HOF.
and to finish if you think Murphy belongs in teh HOF, do you also think Juan Gonzalez belongs in? the top 5 OPS + for each are as such
Murphy
1. 142
2. 149
3. 149
4. 152
5. 157
Gonzalez
1. 133
2. 145
3. 148
4. 149
5. 169
the lower is lower, but the highest is higher… and notwithstandin the steroids argument (which should matter, bc pitchers were using it as well) theres little difference between the two. Gonzalez won two MVPs, was probaly on of the 10 best hitters in the 90s, and actually sustained his performance longer.. the difference is defensively as Juan was a bit weak int eh OF, but he did do well longer.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 23, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did think Juan Gone was a HOFer for a while, but he really tailed off at the end, and there’s also the reality that he was a steroid user. And, like you said, his defense was awful.
That’s where Murphy really sets himself apart, his defense was dominant as well. The guy was Andruw Jones in the outfield.
And yeah, those 6 guys you listed were amazing, and probably all better than Murphy, but only Schmidt was also in the NL, which underscores my point. The league were completely separate back then, most guys didn’t get traded or move as free agents, so saying Murph was one of the top 2 or 3 most dominant players in the NL in the 80s is really saying something.
And yes, Rice being in is a good way to evaluate whether or not Murphy should be in, that’s been the basis of the Hall forever, comparing one guy to another. If a guy who was nearly equal to Murphy as a hitter, and much worse as a fielder is in, then that really does mean Murphy should be in.
It’s a shame you didn’t get to see these guys in the 80s. I didn’t get to watch with sophisticated eyes, since I was born in 81, but I do remember watching them, and man they were good. Especially Ricky.
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Oct 23, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ricky might be the best player ever… and at some other point i will describe why i think that…
and I am handicapped by not being able to see these guys… but i dont see hwo you can say Gonzalez isnt bc he tailed off at the end but Murphy is… i would say Murphy was a lesser offensive player and Gonzalez was lesser defensively…
and I wholeheartedly disagree that comparing players is how we should determine who gets in the hall, because the hall of fame is an absolute sham.. PEte Rose isnt in there, Shoeless Joe Jackson isn’t in there. I think there are about 100 guys in the Hall who don’t belong there, and to compare players to those guys and say see they should be int eh Hall is a horrible way of doing it (however it does seem like that is how they do it, so what the hell do i know)
I guess this is two different arguments. Should Murphy be in, regardless of who’s in? I would say no. Should Murphy be in in relation to some of the players who are in there? Absolutely Yes.
I just think the second line of thinking allows us to admit people like Jim Rice who had a 780 OPS away from Fenway and 920 at home…. he wasn’t that great of a defender and didn’t really have any outstanding tools. But people say o he was so close for so long lets just let him in bc this class sucks ass. Its ok to not admit anyone in a certain year.
And that doesnt even begin to discuss how stupid the hall is for refusig to admit anyone unanimously, bc Babe Ruth wasnt unanimous.
The Hall is an amazing place, but it is drastically cheapen by the things i have mentioned among many others.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 23, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This sums up my feelings on the Hall of Fame pretty accurately.
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Oct 23, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All of those are fair arguments
But in terms of Vizquel, he was dominant with his glove. If Ozzie is in the Hall because of his defensive talent, so should Vizquel.
by Andy Braves Fan on Oct 24, 2009 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t deny that but i just made the case that we shouldn’t do that kind of analysis.
Does Ozzie Smith deserve to be int eh HOF… he had a OPS+ of 87… he stole a lot of bases and played great defense… but thats not HOF worthy in my mind.
I think Omar will go into the Hall, bc Ozzie is there, but thats not a good reason.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 24, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But you can't ignore the glove
I mean, these guys have been the best defensive SS’s of their age, or any age for that matter. Their offensive stats aren’t great, but that doesn’t mean they don’t deserve the hall. I mean, I can’t stand that DH’s get consideration, and many will get in, but they do….
by Andy Braves Fan on Oct 26, 2009 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
like i said above theres a difference between “will he get in” and “should he be in off merits along” and “should he be in based on who is already i”….For Omar he will get it i think, and he should be in based on who’s been inducted already, but he shouldn’t be in on merits alone
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 26, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But that is where I disagree
He has been historically good with the glove, and his bat isn’t bad enough to say he isn’t one of the best players in history. I think no matter how you look at it, he deserves to be in.
by Andy Braves Fan on Oct 26, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i wouldnt have Ozzie Smith in either… i would only have the best of the best of the best.
Im talking about Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Bob Feller,
the gods of baseball….Omar Vizquel was one of the best defensive SS of all time… but he was a liability with the bat (IMHO, not a horrible liability but still)… and thus he doesnt get in.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 26, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so you are focusing solely on accomplishments at the plate?
Ozzie Smith is no Elvis Andrus at the plate (Andrus’ rookie year at 20 would have been up there with Ozzie’s 5 best at the plate, but I digress with the “no stick” debate), but he was a magician in the field for years. IMO, the best of the best of the best would include work in the field and the clubhouse as well as at the plate. I agree with the idea of keeping a Hall of Fame to truly the elite (unlike say the basketball Hall of Fame) but Ozzie deserves consideration imo.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 27, 2009 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly my point
And I view Omar Vizquel similarly, he is historically amazing with his glove. Glove work is underappreciated…
by Andy Braves Fan on Oct 27, 2009 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i dont disagree that glove work is underappreciated… i think defense is really important… which is why if you notice the guys i mentioned are all pretty good defensively
I wouldnt want a guy who was a demi-god with the bat but a huge liability in the field… You need to have both… and Omar and Ozzie didn’t (they were strictly glove men, who happened to be about league avg offensively)
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 27, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again
Not necessarily true. Again, Omar has the second most hits of any SS in History behind Jeter, and Ozzie also could run the bases. They were both more than average with the stick…
by Andy Braves Fan on Oct 27, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But that's not the debate
The debate is whether Andrus is a sure fire all-star, not whether he’s “not bad for a 20 year old”. I’m not taking anything away from his performance this year, I was impressed. He improved on his XBH’s and played much better defense than I imagined he would, but the OP said he “is a future all star”. There is nothing in his history nor current performance that makes that statement ring true.
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
by scstrato on Oct 22, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and there is nothing in his history that makes it ring false! its an opinion.
by Hcgadawgs on Oct 23, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remember when a Braves scout said somethin like Andrus has a chance to be the next Derek Jeter while Andrus was still on our team.
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 22, 2009 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They also called Frenchy "The Natural"
And they were right, but the problem is that potential isn’t always realized.
by Andy Braves Fan on Oct 23, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ohhh i wasn’t sayin it was a bad deal for us or nothin i was just sayin about the scout that said Andrus could be the next Jeter. Cause the person i was replyin to said he isn’t gonna be Derek Jeter good. Oh yeah i realize he could or could not realize his potential.
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 23, 2009 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
in no way did i imply that every prospect turns out to be what was “projected” …and me saying andrus is going to be an allstar is clearly my opinion, and you’ve still givin no proof to justify your “facts”…
but you don’t see too many 21 year old SS’s play as good as he has his first full rookie season. He’ll do nothing from here but get better. He is still not fully developed. He plays defense, can steal bases, the offense will come. so the tools are obviously there. the guy has what it takes or the braves wouldn’t have signed him to a six figure deal when he was 16.
and all you just did was counter my opinion with more opinions of your own…
by Hcgadawgs on Oct 22, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats awfully subjective
the guy has what it takes or the braves wouldn’t have signed him to a six figure deal
I could also argue that he doesn’t have what it takes or the braves would’ve traded Yunel instead.
and all you just did was counter my opinion with more opinions of your own…
Not even going to touch that one except to say you need to look up the definitions of “Opinion” and “Fact”.
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
by scstrato on Oct 22, 2009 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i figured since were talking about something that hasn’t happened yet (andrus being an allstar) you would’ve taken the statement in the correct context and understood it was my opinion…because it clearly is since it hasn’t happened yet!
and no thats not the reason they didn’t trade yunel…yunel wasn’t as valuable as andrus at that time..and my definitions of fact and opinion are very clear, your ability to decipher between them must not be though..
and your original post said he’s “all glove no bat”, all your doing is throwing out stats that prove my point….if you go up to all 30 GM’s or managers and tell them a 20 year old who hit .270, stole bases, and played great defense has allstar potential, 95% will agree…i can almost guaranteed that…
even with all your stats and what not, its still not “fact” (since you seem to value that so much), its an opinion, a very unwell supported one at that
by Hcgadawgs on Oct 23, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“and no thats not the reason they didn’t trade yunel…yunel wasn’t as valuable as andrus at that time..”
huh??? Since when?
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 23, 2009 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I rest my case…
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
by scstrato on Oct 23, 2009 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he wasn’t “as” valuable compared andrus at the time…in 2007 andrus was our #2 prospect….yunel was our #10….thus meaning HE WAS NOT AS VALUABLE
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/features/263052.html
i rest my case…
by Hcgadawgs on Oct 26, 2009 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
who fuckin cares what that says. Escobar wasn’t a super young guy like some of the specs, Andrus was a toolsy guy which BA loves those types, so sometimes those types get hyped up MUCH more than a Escobar but also those types are also more vulnerable to bust as well. Somethin like this happens all the time with rankings. Escobar was much closer to MLB actually at the time of the trade Escobar was already called up and “impressing” at the MLB level.
I rest my case…
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 26, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha, it is quite funny how i provide a legitimate source to backup my statement and you completely disregard it because it doesn’t support your argument…and of course esco was up before then because he was 24, while andrus was still only 18. and at the time of the trade esco had only been up a little over a month…we had an immediate need for a shortstop in 07’ and escobar was more developed and ready (because he’s 6 years older) but that doesn’t mean he was more valuable..you could still say that andrus is more valuable because he is still only 21…escobar wasn’t even drafted at 21…everyone seriosly underrates the value andrus has, by 26 he will be just as good, if not better than esco was this year
by Hcgadawgs on Oct 26, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
why is this even an argument lol. For one thing im not tryin to undermine Andrus ability cause he was valuable i will never ever say he wasn’t but thing is Renteria was nearing the end of his contract and we wanted to move him and shed the salary and Escobar was right there ready to come in so yeah this is just MY opinion but i believe he was more valuable the the Braves now so thats why he was never even offered in the deal… And Andrus has TONSSSSSSS of ability i will never say he doesn’t, my own opinion though i think Escobar was more valuable to the Atlanta Braves at that specific time cause they needed a MLB young cheap SS to replace Renteria and Escobar fit the description.
“everyone seriosly underrates the value andrus has, by 26 he will be just as good, if not better than esco was this year”
how can you say that? There is no proof whatsoever that Andrus at that age will be better than Escobar is now there is no proof and that is YOUR opinion on that so dont bring that in the discussion since your tryin to bring all the evidence for yourself…
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 26, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
by 26 he will be just as good, if not better than esco was this year
I disagree with this. There’s no way to make an argument out of it, since it’s speculative on both our parts, but I disagree.
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Oct 26, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and i respect that, im not sayin i would take andrus over escobar. i just think based on what andrus did at the age of 20/21 makes his potential unlimited..most players are still in A ball at that age..IMO there both gonna be top 5 shortstops in the game, and the original poster said andrus was all glove and no bat, which is completely false…and i said that andrus was more valuable or a better prospect a few years ago and he was, but the braves had enough confidence in esco to trade away andrus, and esco proved himself and it worked out great, the only thing were arguing about is that andrus was a higher rated prospect and if you dont believe that then thats fine
by Hcgadawgs on Oct 26, 2009 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can't be serious
A players value has always been based on performance, not potential. No way did Andrus ever have more value to a major league team than Yunel for the simple fact that Andrus had never been in the majors. You provided a prospect ranking list as proof? All that proves is that Baseball America thought that Andrus was the better prospect at the time. It had nothing to do with his value to a Major League team.
So if I understand you correctly, you think that because Andrus has a chance to be better than Yunel 5 years from now he has more value? The problem in your thinking is, exactly what you pointed out, it hasn’t happened yet. NOBODY in MLB assigns value to player based on what they think he may do in the future, they base it on what he has done in the past. Sorry mate, but you missed the point yet again. Keep trying though, this is entertaining at the least.
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
by scstrato on Oct 26, 2009 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hey we both said pretty much the same thing just in different words and you saw what he said to my post so expect him to try the same with your post lol he just doesn’t get it and never will, prolly pointless arguin with him about this…
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 26, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So true.
You aren’t the czar of typographic emphasis
by scstrato on Oct 27, 2009 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i said at the time of the trade he had more value…yunel had only been called up for a month or so but take it how you want it
by Hcgadawgs on Oct 27, 2009 8:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
People say potential as if it were a good thing
I think it was Tom Verducci who said it best when he was gushing about Josh Beckett in the 2007 playoffs, that “Beckett has shed the term ‘potential’ like an unwanted ball and chain, and has finally turned himself, into a real, pitcher.”
As far as I’m concerned, in the baseball world, the term “potential,” should not always come with positive connotation, but instead negative. Because as long as people are slinging around the word potential with your name, it’s implied that you could always be better. Salty might have all this potential, but hasn’t really done a lick to prove that he belongs in the majors to unleash all of this potential, what with slowly declining numbers, with his 2009 demonstrating poor average, OBP, SLG, and almost 4:1 K:BB ratio.
In regards to the rest of this topic, every trade can play the six degrees of kevin bacon game. The Teixeira (with Mahay) trade might have “only” netted us Kotchman (and Marek) for the “high, high” cost of Jones/Harrison/Salty/Feliz/Elvis, but hey, look at that, he’s no Tex himself, but Kotchman netted us LaRoche, who put up some of his own gaudy second-half production himself for the Braves.
The way I see it, trading away five prospects, with only one of them being an everyday starter, with two weighted down by their own potential, for two important cogs to two potential playoff runs in three years was a pretty decent risk to me.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Oct 19, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes i understand where your going with the potential thing. and that would pose true if you were talking about 26 or 27 year old with a few years experience. but when your a 21 year old and a few years younger than everyone in the league, and still put up good numbers..your out of your mind if you dont think these will improve and be great players…hence the word “potential”
by Hcgadawgs on Oct 19, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are we talking about Jarrod Saltalamacchia?
Because I am, since he’s the one you chained to the word potential. His callup was on his 22nd birthday, and based on the numbers, the only thing he’s shown potential at is getting worse. He’s batted no higher than .266, and entrusted with more PAs in 2009, he’s rewarded Texas by demonstrating career lows in average, and OBP, while setting career highs in strikeouts, in fewer cumulative ABs than his callup year in ’07.
I think a lot of people are still hung up on the fact that Salty WAS this highly touted offensive catching prospect, and that he was far too much to relinquish in the Teixeira deal, but the fact is in the present, underwhelming at 24, he’s dangerously bordering on being on the side of a bust than a success story.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Oct 19, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the context of my post was refferring to the group as a whole having potential…and they do. hell, even salty being a decent bench player still gives him some value..it just sounds like yall are highly underating these guys..the bottom line is we traded away a shitload of potential (based on the group as a whole) for what turned out to be nothing in the end (and i’m not saying we should have done anything different because i know we were in a playoff race), but i am admitting that this whole trade is gonna bite us in the ass eventually…for several reasons..if we wouldn’t have done it we could have andrus and feliz for several years to come at a cheap price…we could have andrus and 2B this year (don’t bite my head off Prado lovers) and Feliz at the back end of the pen, either closing or set-up…bottom line is we would have alot more options if we didn’t make the deal..so we lost the trade..thats all i was saying
by Hcgadawgs on Oct 19, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
…
People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.
by mvandonsel on Oct 19, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Ron Mahay, Mark Tex and Adam LaRoche all proved to be more than “nothing in the end”…especially since we have a great shot at resigning Adam.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 19, 2009 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think he was too much for that deal...
he was just right considering you have a young potential power bat for a proven power bat, but did we need to add both Feliz and Andrus? One or two maybe, but all of the above? At some point in those negotiations, it would have been nice if Schuerholz did as Wren did in the Peavy talks and said, “You know what, this is just a bit too rich for my blood” and stopped including what at the time several of the clubs higher rated prospects.
But at some point, we all knew Salty would be dealt just going by the countless comments on his “value” being a C in spite of McCann locking down that job and the club’s need for a young slugger to take 1B.
Also, I tend to disagree with those that call Harrison garbage. He may not have produced much yet, but he’s started 26 games so far, all of which came before turning 24 in September, with two complete game shutouts (something neither Jurrjens nor Hanson have). I’m not saying he’s Hanson or Jurrjens, but that ain’t bad. And it’d be nice to have a young, MAJOR LEAGUE READY left hander to complement the two righties.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 19, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Something else that Harrison has that JJ and Hanson do not: multiple DL stints.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 19, 2009 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He'll be 24 when spring training starts...
and we’ll see how his future pans out from here. Simply put, the kid has done a lot more than “garbage”. And no telling how he would have helped the staff either in 08 when we had so many injuries, or this past year when so much was spent in the offseason on solidifying the rotation. He’s not Hanson or Jurrjens, but going into spring training at 24, with 26 starts under his belt, 2 complete game shutouts and several other solid outings. Yes, he’s had injury troubles, but he also has a low/mid 90s fastball with 3 other solid pitches. If he stays healthy, he has the stuff to be a damn fine starter.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 20, 2009 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And no telling how he would have helped the staff either in 08 when we had so many injuries
2008 – he would have helped us with a 5.39 ERA, a 1.59 WHIP and a 1.35 K:BB ratio.
I am not arguing the fact that he is talented. My problem is that he can’t stay healthy. I have absolutely no regrets in trading him away.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 20, 2009 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
different club, different pitching coach...
different opponents, different catcher, different fielders. You can’t take his Texas numbers and say they would have transferred.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 20, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah but cant say he would be good for us even if he was healthy…
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 20, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re right. He was pitching in the ALW. The hitting in the NLE that year was much better than the ALW. I assume his numbers would have been even uglier.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 20, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Harrison was still with us, he’d be rotting away in AAA.
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 20, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
u realize u just made the case for Jeff Francouer to succeed when he broke in… he has tools, he had success, he is young, he is in the majors.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 19, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
People get pissed about the wrong Teixeira trade (the only player I’m upset that we lost in that deal is Feliz). We gave up Tex, got Kotchman and Merek. Yikes.
by Lennox on Oct 19, 2009 1:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
we were handcuffed, by a need to trade him and the lack of suitable landing spots for him…. it wasnt a good return, but it might have been the best thing we could have gotten for him
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 19, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the draft picks would have been possibly better...
Marek is crap. Kotchman was decent, but his bat was a problem. Handcuff or not, that deal only made the original deal of a boatload of quality prospects resulting in no playoffs even worse.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 19, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i disagree, but i understand what you are saying and it is a fair point… so we’ll leave it at that.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 19, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then we flip one of those pieces for Adam LaRoche…I’d say that Tex for LaRoche and a project (Marek) seems about right – especially considering we were going to lose him to FA anyway. The odds of a draft pick turning out better than LaRoche are pretty slim…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 19, 2009 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LaRoche is a FA now, Marek has next to no value as a prospect at this point.
Two years ago we traded a haul of prospects for an All-Star, a year later we traded that All-Star, at this point we basically have nothing of value in our system to show for it. That’s not good, any way you slice it.
by Lennox on Oct 20, 2009 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, that is one way of looking at it. Another way is:
We traded away a handful of prospects for 1.5 years of incredible production at 1B – production which put us in a better position to make the playoffs in 2 out of 3 years.
It would be interesting to see how our production from 1B ranks while being manned by Tex and Roche. I’d be willing to be that it would be top 3 in all of baseball for those time periods.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 20, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
finish 3rd for the division...
or finish 4th, you still miss the damn playoffs. Bettering the position, when you don’t actually make it, is pretty worthless. I could agree with giving up such a huge price for Tex if it meant probable playoffs to possible World Series. But that team was a far cry from a World Series contender, and still had too many holes to even make the playoffs. Woulda, coulda, shoulda, but didn’ta.
And LaRoche is another issue. Luckily Boston’s roster changed so they just needed a defensive sub at 1B rather than a starter, plus he may or may not leave through free agency, and may or may not have signed with the Braves this winter anyway.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 20, 2009 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The real handcuffing is that we were set on getting a MLB ready 1B back in the deal. If we’d been looking for the best possible prospects we could have probably got a better deal in return.
by Lennox on Oct 20, 2009 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes sir
I was stunned at how few teams were really interested in Tex. There were wispers of the DBacks being interested, but the word around Tucson and Phoenix was they were just testing the waters to see if they could get him for nothing 5 minutes before the deadline.
Besides the Angels, who was interested? Yankees prospects are always overrated. I know the Sox were kinda interested, but they already had Kevin “I got my ass kicked by a skinny 20 year-old rookie pitcher” Youkilis. Who else? Im having problems remembering who
President of Marteeeny's Weeenies: The Official Fan Club for Martin Prado.
WE WANT PRADO AT 2B IN 2010!
by mvhsbball on Oct 20, 2009 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The teams rumored to be involved were IIRC the D’Backs, Angels, Dodgers, and Red Sox with a few mentions of the Yankees having some interest.
by Lennox on Oct 20, 2009 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And how many of them could have topped what we paid...
even if you remove on of the 4 solid prospects?
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 21, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Topped what we paid? We’re talking about the Braves dealing Tex away.
by Lennox on Oct 21, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great point
Now that you mention it, the trading of Teix was pretty much the equivalent of putting up the white flag. There probably should have been no adamant demand to get a MLB ready 1B in return when the team was essentially throwing in the towel and going back to the rebuilding process anyway.
I agree, they might have gotten some better prospects in return, which could have been used to fortify their own minors, or re-flipped for something better in return, perhaps.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Oct 20, 2009 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh my goodness, enough about the Texeira trade.
If any of you can honestly say and prove that you hated the trade back in 2007, i’ll give you $100 bucks. Mark Teixeria is one of the best hitters in baseball and Braves fans around the world were drooling when we got him. He was going to lead us back to our post-season glory. He was our savior. He was…well, you get it.
At the time, Feliz and Andrus were 18 years old. How many 18 year old prospects do we see bust? It happens all the time. Andrus had a nice rookie season and Feliz had a nice 1/2 of a year. We had absolutely no clue that would happen 2 and a half year ago. Oh…and we have Esco at SS for the next 4 years, so why is it such a big deal we lost an all defense, no offense shortstop?
Matt Harrison was finally getting towards the upper levels of the minors when we dealt him. He has a career ERA of 7 and has gotten pounded since day one. He would have absolutely no role on the Atlanta Braves.
Salty had so much hype around him and he’s failed miserably ever since coming to the majors. He was replaced at the trade deadline by the Rangers…and he was their 2nd catcher. That would be like us making a deal to replace Rossy. Not to mention he was stuck behind BMac and his wonderful 6 year contract (no one ever mentions that…we got a helluva deal.)
Beau Jones is in the minors. He might make a decent 5th starter one day, but he’s 24 and still in AA ball. Doesn’t look too promising.
Yeah, I wish we would’ve gotten more for Tex after we sent all those guys to Texas, but not every trade goes your way. You win some, you lose some. We lost that trade. It happens. Now, I’d just really like if people would stop acting like it’s the end of the world.
President of Marteeeny's Weeenies: The Official Fan Club for Martin Prado.
WE WANT PRADO AT 2B IN 2010!
by mvhsbball on Oct 19, 2009 2:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
3 games back and I don’t care-a
The Atlanta Braves got Mark Tiexiera
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 19, 2009 2:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
its what the whole damn post is about…dont complain about what somebody says in here when you go into a thread knowing that your gonna read about it…it was a bad trade and yes shit like this happens..if we woulda made the playoffs that year it woulda been alot easier to swallow..but we didn’t..and watching the guys we traded away develop into good players is the price we have to pay..
by Hcgadawgs on Oct 19, 2009 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he’s saying its not a bad trade and hes saying its stupid to evaluate trades as bad or good after you know how things turned out… it only makes sense to evaluate a trade by using the information we had at our disposal when the trade was made.
so if you dont want to read his post just skip over it
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 19, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so since its already happened we can’t talk about it and how it turned out for both sides? thats bullshit logic. nobody is critiscizing JS for making this move. we understand we were in a playoff race and sometimes things like that happen. but to say we can’t talk about the reprecussions of it a year and a half later is stupid. and the only way to grade a trade is to see how it turns out? that’d be like the teacher grading your test before you took it?
by Hcgadawgs on Oct 19, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the analogy is horrible so try another one…
and i never said we shouldn’t talk about it, but understand that calling it a bad trade is misguided. did it work out well for us… probably not.. at minimum Andrus adds value by being a cheap dependable defensive minded SS with offensive upside, and Feliz throws really hard and his control is improving (notice how there hasnt been any mention of off speed stuff).
and people are critizing JS fro making this move. thats what you do when you refer to a trade as one of the worst trades in braves history. It was a good trade, bc both teams got what they wanted, bc the trade was fairly bargained. TX got what they wanted or they wouldnt have given up Teix. we got what we wanted or we wouldnt have given up prospects.
Its just really annoying to have to listen to people bitch about this trade every three months. And realistically thats what is happening. Ive been here a little over a year and this trade has been rehashed no less than 10 times in full discussion.
Talk about it you want but don’t deny the fact that the trade was the right move at the time (although thats debatable bc realistically we should have gotten some pitching). Anyone who thinks we lost that deal at the time is lying to themselves.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 19, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my point exactly
Yeah, we lost the trade, but at the time, it was the greatest trade any of us had ever seen.
President of Marteeeny's Weeenies: The Official Fan Club for Martin Prado.
WE WANT PRADO AT 2B IN 2010!
by mvhsbball on Oct 19, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if Tex was still sitting at first for the Braves
No one here would give a damn what Andrus or Neffi were doing.
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Oct 19, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is the biggest point in the whole discussion right here.
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Oct 19, 2009 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
was there any reason to think he would be cb?...
hometown discount for the guy who played at Georgia Tech aside, were Liberty media or whoever about to offer any more than the Texas offer he turned down?
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 19, 2009 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
IIRC, he did turn down about $18M/year for something like 5 years from the Braves…that is substantial enough for me.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 19, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think that is a legitimate offer and teixiera had a reasonably high chance of accepting it, especially if we had contended at leasat marginally held onto all season and then offered that in the offseason
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 19, 2009 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
about what Texas offered,...
and was declined. So again, where is this delusion that he would resign here coming from when the Braves ownership didn’t have the ability to offer much more money or longevity than he had just passed on?
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 20, 2009 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it was based on the fact that he went to school here and that his wife was from around here somewhere, I think. It seemed fairly reasonable at the time, but in my perfect 20/20 hindsight, was a little misguided.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 20, 2009 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and he'd been with Texas for years...
it wasn’t reasonable then unless you looked through rose colored glasses. Plain and simple, we weren’t offering much more than Texas did, and he declined. So thinking he would resign here without significantly upping the offer was misguided at best.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 20, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree Mr. Sanchez. I mean he was paid a boatload of money when he was originally signed by the Rangers in the draft then spent time in the minors then majors he was brought up with that team and he had Boras as a agent. Most people commented about his wife bein from Georgia, Tex playin at Georgia Tech to HOPE he would resign with us but it was very misguided to think that especially from a guy whos agent is Boras who just turned down a monster contract that the Rangers offered him.
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 20, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But, we were, at the time, a perennial contender. That is why he wanted out of Texas – he was sick of losing. Coming to a winning team, playing for Bobby Cox, in an organization where the the reputation is great, one of the greatest switch hitters of all time right next to you in the lineup, for a ton of money, next to your wife’s folks, where you went to school seems to out-weigh the benefits of playing in Texas, where he had spent a few years already.
I don’t think it takes rose-colored glasses to see that percieved advantage of playing in Atlanta over Texas.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 20, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“watching the guys we traded away develop into good players is the price we have to pay..”
You have no proof they will develop into good players. 1 year of Andrus and some Relief appearances from Feliz does not point to them bein good players in the future that is still up in the air, Salty has been below average in the majors, Beau Jones has shown nothin cause he is in the minors and Harrison has been complete garbage since bein in the majors. Could Salty, Jones and Harrison still become good players? Absolutely but they aren’t doin nothin right now. Could Andrus and Feliz have shown what they will do in the future? Absolutely. But could they regress and do nothin in the future? Absolutely. We just have no idea man and for you to say the comment about watchin the guys we traded away develop into good players comment is just purely your opinion, cause like i said they may all bust we have no idea right now only time will tell. Obviously the Rangers will take that risk though cause that package is still MUCH better potentially than a first round pick when Rangers would have no idea who would have signed him and what spot in the draft they would be pickin from.
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 19, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you win some, you lose some...
and we are discussing trades where we lost. So how is it a bad topic?
Texieria is a bad trade because of what we gave up, and eventually what we got in return, both from the Angels and in not making the playoffs.
Compared to the JD Drew/Wainwright deal, at least the team made the playoffs with Drew. In that sense, you can argue you got what you paid for. But Texieria was brought in to help make the playoffs either by sparking the team, or helping in a full year that next season. He did neither (and that horrible start to the 08 season had some effect too).
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 19, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here here!
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Oct 19, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, a turn to negative town! Allright!
Trading away Ryan Klesko. End of story.
"Matt Diaz is a baseball player."-Joe Simpson
by 10-4 on Oct 19, 2009 8:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
nice call...
Klesko, Brett Boone, Jason Shiell for Wally Joyner, Reggie Sanders and Quilvio Veras.
Shiell never did much at the major league level, but Klesko was a solid player for years after. Boone averaged 27.8 HRs over 104 RBI in the 5 years following the deal. In return, we get a single year of Wally Joyner looking like Kotchman, probably the worst season of Reggie Sanders’ career, and a decent half season of Quilvio Veras followed by a half season of Veras that got him cut.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 19, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow lookin at Boone’s nbrs can we all agree he did steriods?
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 19, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes.
Then again, in my opinion, so were a lot of players. With one being….*cough*Blauser*cough* Excuse me. Now where was I?
by Sparhawk on Oct 19, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
THANK you Mr. Sanchez
I’m surprised I had to scroll all the way down here to find someone mentioning this trade. I only wish Bret had started juicing before he went to the Mariners. .330/30/130 looks so much better than .250/20/50. And Blauser wasn’t the only Brave that looked like Lex Luger for a couple years.
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Oct 19, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the problem is,...
if people want to pick this apart like they are Tex above, it can easily be done.
Klesko was strong, but he always had that problem of Bobby playing him vs. left handers, and Boone’s #s after he left weren’t exactly expected unless you want the Braves to endorse steroid use. Wally Joyner wasn’t much, but I doubt we expected that light of hitting. Reggie Sanders was supposedly the everyday power hitter we needed, but had his worst season of his career (kind of hard to see that coming). Quilvio Veras actually started off as a decent speed threat joining Furcal at the top of the lineup. So that dreaded 20/20 hindsight is needed to see that this trade crapped out badly as well.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 20, 2009 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mr Sanchez.....
Bravo !!! many of your comments are on the money. JS was over rated as a GM in my opinion. Often he traded younger (and eventually more productive) talent, for the moment,which only produced one WS winner. Not a mention here of Dye for Tucker and Lockhart? Or a one year rental of Lofton, who was somewhat of an Atlanta bust for Justice? The Texeria trade was an awful one. At what point does an organization trust the folks they hire as scouts? It seems to me that Bobby was brought in to rebuild this organization and then slowly it was ignored by JS. What did we get for Millwood? Wainwright? The reason the Braves became great is what Wren is doing now,that is, scout it, develope it, and keep it.
by mikie baseball on Oct 20, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah. We should never trade away for talent. That Maddux guy and that Smoltz guy could have easily been replaced within the org.
Face it guys. Trades happen. You win some, and you lose some.
I think that the Braves are fortuneate that the trades that we are talking about having been lost have not cost the Braves anything in terms of competitiveness.
Also, blaming JS for the failures of the Braves to win more than 1 WS (which is way more than about 80% of the rest of the league over the past 15 years, btw) is ignorant. JS had nothing to do with the seemingly annual collapse of the pitching staff during “The Streak”.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 20, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, a GM puts you in position to try to win, the players have to go out and get it done. And for the Regular season durin that streak the Braves did that for a very very long time.
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 20, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No one...
mentioned replacing two Hall of Famers within the farm system.I was seconding the remarks made by Mr Sanchez and noted the typical piling on. Since you have a need to make this personal and call my remarks ignorant , please be assured I have little respect for most of your opinions on this board. I am sure that is a shock to your ego, but I am refreshed by the opinion of Mr Sanchez that trading 5 prospects for a one year rental is a bad trade. I agree with that ,and your objection merely supports that notion. Thank you and have a wonderful day. The profound remarks such as Trades happen .you win some and you lose some are very enlightening.
by mikie baseball on Oct 20, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
whoah
settle down guy….. you just blasted one of the main contributors to any thread. Disagree or not, you seemed to make it personal here just now
by traphicg on Oct 20, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im not defendin neither one but justin sometimes does seem to make stuff personal as well which seems like most on here do, so i think mikie baseball was in no wrong with what he said.
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 20, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Admittedly, when I first got here, I got a little carried away with some people. I have since tried to eliminate getting into pissing contests with others and making things personal.
If I still come across that way, I apologize, but I don’t think I have done that in quite some time.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 20, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really dont care either way to be honest all i was sayin to traphicg is mikie baseball had the right to say what he said to you without someone tellin him to settle down thats all.
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 20, 2009 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I was apologizing to you directly, so yeah…
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 20, 2009 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ohhh. Well i mean personally when we get into a discussion its most of the time cool other than one particular debate lol, but no need to apologize to me.
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 20, 2009 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me too
I joined this site about 3 months before I posted anything. The first day was Smoltz Beard and I argueing over Adam Dunn for 8 hours…quickest day of work ever.
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 21, 2009 8:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, I was the same way! Although, Smoltz’Beard and I generally had civil discussions. It was Large Joseph that I had a tiff with. We have since hugged it out though.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 21, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have a good one.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 20, 2009 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And everybody's friends again.
I’ll get the jellybeans and milksteak.
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Oct 20, 2009 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
for the “Always sunny” ref
I thought hurricane season was over........
by bravesguy311 on Oct 21, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
mediator anyone??
i thoguht that when discussions became baseless arguments and personal, we had mediators on this site to clean things up and try to re-focus the posts….
People – say your cases, and move on. Please refrain from repeating yourselves over and over again, with slight alterations in your sentences – it only makes your argument sound less legit.
by traphicg on Oct 19, 2009 3:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Waino
I agree that now it looks like the Waino/JD Drew trade was a bust – Waino is MY candidate for Cy Young for sure (ERA a little worse than Carp but 2 extra wins…) – but i’m not going to agree it was top 3 all time worst trades.
JD Drew had a career year with us, i think he hit the most HRs he’s hit (or had up to that point) on the rental we got. And I dont know currently, but Marrero was a scrappy little shit who won my respect.
Ray King caused more heart attacks than anything. Marquis, well, he’s just Marquis. Half the teams would LOVE a guy like that and the other half laughs at him.
by traphicg on Oct 19, 2009 3:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
thats another trade that i think everyone should be reasonably happy wiht… again it blows ass that Wainwright is really good and JD Drew turned in his best season and then bolted town for the LA.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 19, 2009 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wainwright is a douchebag as well.
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 20, 2009 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
a 19-game winning douchebag though
by Hcgadawgs on Oct 20, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point.
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 20, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Garland won a bunch of games too…just sayin’.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 20, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And never a more average pitcher walked the face of the earth
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Oct 21, 2009 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i never said douchebag i love me some JD Drew… he has the hgihest level of unintentional comedy in his post game interviews
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 20, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t mean to imply that JD is a douche…I gotta watch those as wells…
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 20, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since when is Wainwright a d-bag? That guy is awesome.
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Oct 20, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe he isn't as bad as I thought...
A girl in my office said that she met him at a resturant in Georgia a few years back, and he was really rude to her when she approached him (not THAT many would recognize him, so I’m sure he doesn’t constantly get approached). Anyways, she is probably one of the sweetest girls I know (the type that can’t help it to smile all the time) and anyone that could be rude to her has to be some sort of offensive d-word.
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 20, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That sucks he was rude to her, but I gotta say, that’ the first negative thing I’ve ever heard about him. I talked to him a bunch when he was still with the Braves and a couple of times since he’s been with the Cardinals and he’s never been anything but great to me.
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Oct 20, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
…he doesn’t like girls.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
by sddbaker on Oct 20, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“I heard their menstrual periods attract bears!”
“Yeah Ron, we can’t have bears coming into the studio.”
Gotta love Anchorman.
President of Marteeeny's Weeenies: The Official Fan Club for Martin Prado.
WE WANT PRADO AT 2B IN 2010!
by mvhsbball on Oct 20, 2009 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“It’s so damn hot! Milk was a bad choice!”
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 20, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Ron! Ron! Where are you?"
President of Marteeeny's Weeenies: The Official Fan Club for Martin Prado.
WE WANT PRADO AT 2B IN 2010!
by mvhsbball on Oct 21, 2009 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Awesome, I quoted that like an hour ago.
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Oct 20, 2009 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha, which one? The bears and menstrual periods or that milk was a bad choice? I kinda wonder what you were talking about if there were bears and menstrual periods in the conversation lol
President of Marteeeny's Weeenies: The Official Fan Club for Martin Prado.
WE WANT PRADO AT 2B IN 2010!
by mvhsbball on Oct 21, 2009 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was the bears and menstrual periods one. Anytime women acting crazy comes up that line does too.
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Oct 21, 2009 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nice man
Gotta love that movie.
“San Diego…it means a whale’s vagina.”
President of Marteeeny's Weeenies: The Official Fan Club for Martin Prado.
WE WANT PRADO AT 2B IN 2010!
by mvhsbball on Oct 21, 2009 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
RB – I’m lying. Scholars have no idea what it really means.
VC – It means “St. Diego”
RB – …(laughs)…that can’t be right. Agree to disagree.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 21, 2009 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“When in Rome…”
President of Marteeeny's Weeenies: The Official Fan Club for Martin Prado.
WE WANT PRADO AT 2B IN 2010!
by mvhsbball on Oct 21, 2009 2:36 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
“go on…”
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 21, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good quote/point
There are a few small black bears in Georiga. Their small, but still a reason to be concerned…
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 21, 2009 8:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question: What kind of bear is the best?
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 21, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s a ridiculous question.
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 21, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1 for picking up on that!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 21, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FACT BROWN BEAR
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 21, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
-1 for being late to the party.
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 21, 2009 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
dude i hate a meeting i had to attend for class… give me a break
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 21, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m defending freedom.
:)
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 21, 2009 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
u’ve told me what you do all day… don’t try that crap with me
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 22, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the onyl way you are defending freedom is when you are playing CoD 4
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 22, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
owned
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Oct 22, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ha…dammit!
"My team of nine guys who hit like Albert Pujols and never ever bunt just beat your team with one Shane Victorino 472 to 3."
by justincredubil02 on Oct 22, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't worry.
Be happy.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
by sddbaker on Oct 20, 2009 11:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
We should all be VERY happy that we didn’t trade Hanson (+MORE) for Peavy. I was actually for that trade at one point…
Plus, we have freaking Jason Heyward…
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 20, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was never for that trade. I absolutely did NOT want Escobar in that deal at all, not Hanson as well.
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 20, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and if we moved Esco...
who would the SS have been, Khalil Greene?
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 20, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He might of tried to…
We would probably have to dish out more prospects for a legitimite shortstop, then Mr. Sanchez and I would get into it again in 2-3 years about trading those guys…
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 20, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah in a few years he would prolly be complainin about Peavy huge salary and then seein how great Escobar is and we not havin a true SS or like you said we go out and deal prospects for SS and those specs become somethin then here it comes all over again lol.
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 20, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you mean the same Khalil Greene that missed most of this year with injury and that in the past few years was pretty non existent offensively in his career? Yeah i would pass but thanks anyway though…
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 20, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the question was...
wasn’t Greene supposedly coming back in the supposed Peavy/Esco deal to help provide the SS we’d lose in the deal and need to find if it went through.
by Mr. Sanchez on Oct 20, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was one of the rumors, and he woulda kinda had to be included (for the reasons you stated). Unless we abosolutely didn’t want him…
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 20, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh yeah he was rumored to be in the deal i never said he wasn’t. Just the point im makin is Escobar is farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr greater than Greene and Peavy was hurt this year and our pitching was really good and we had a black hole on offense, Escobar was the MVP of our offense this year in my opinion that and his marvelous glove i mean thats why i said NO to Escobar for Peavy.
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 20, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we wouldnt have the same pitching depth had we signed Peavy, in fact I would claim that the whole offseason would have been drastically different had we acquired Peavy.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 20, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well we wouldn’t have signed Lowe for sure so he takes over his spot in the rotation. Would we have went after Vaz??? Who knows but all i know is im glad we did. You could be right it could have been much different but im fine with the Peavy deal fallin completely apart.
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 20, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
o no doubt… its good we didnt sign Peavy… i think?
who knows, really…maybe instead of signing Lowe and KK we sign Dunn… then start Hanson from day 1… and win the WS… fact is its all speculation
needless to say I think it was a good call not to sign Peavy
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 20, 2009 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I hated that trade from the beginning. I knew Peavy was an injury waiting to happen, and the talent it would have taken to acquire him was way too much.
by Andy Braves Fan on Oct 20, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Any way you slice the Teixiera deal, you just can’t justify it being a fair trade for us.
Six years of team control of Neftali Feliz and six years of team control of Elvis Andrus alone is worth more than two years of Mark Teixiera ever could be. And that’s before we even account for the other three players in the deal. It didn’t leave us without a farm system, but it certainly wasn’t healthy for the franchise.
Q: If on-base pct is so important then why don't they put it on the scoreboard? -Failcoeur
A: Because the Braves don't want to show their fans how bad you suck.
by timmy3 on Oct 20, 2009 2:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
O. M. effing. G.
oh yeah, sorry, lets delete this entire post b/c any way you slice it the Tex trade sucked.
By the ASB next year, half of these opinions are going to change. I dont know who said it above but it was true – everyone with any ties to ATL was creaming their jeans thinking about Tex during that trade.
by traphicg on Oct 20, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Worst Braves trade ever hmm down to two in my book.
1.)
Klesko, Boone to the Padres for Q. Veras, R. Sanders, and W. Joyner (may have been another person sent by us cannot remember) ?
2.)
Brett Butler for Len Barker
Anyway I still think that the Klesko, Boone trade really hurt this franchise and it is the classical example of making a trade just to make a trade and of course we tried to cover up our mistake by saying “we want a leadoff hitter no matter the cost”. Klesko was my favorite player and I wish we still had him, he never got cheated at the dish and was a great team player. Boone turned out to be a best in the latter stages of his career however when we had him he was still in his prime and played very well for us. As for the latter part of the deal Veras did little of nothing and Sanders even less with us at-least. Joyer of course was done after the half or so season that he spent in ATL.
As for the Hank Aaron trade as GM Butler for Barker" this was a horrific deal b/c Barker had really only two good seasons with Cleveland in early 80’s and when he was acquired by ATL he had just thrown a “no hitter” and we all know how good Butler ended up being. Worst trade ever could be LOL ?
My pick is still 1.) above, hated the deal and I still do to this day.
by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Oct 20, 2009 3:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So anyways, I was standing there waiting to use the pay phone. This guy who was on the phone, turns around and tips his hat like so (tip). And who do you think that guy was? Quilvio Veras. The little 2nd baseman, I swear to God, I was there. I was like, “QUILVIO”!!!
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 20, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well played sir.
Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?
by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST
by Swo12bv on Oct 20, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How the hell has no one mentioned the Justice/Grissom for Lofton/Embree deal? Grissom didn’t exactly tear it up for the Indians after that, but David Justice went on to have a damn productive career after going to Cleveland and elsewhere (probably fueled by juice, not that it matters) and Lofton spent exactly one underachieving year in Atlanta and then promptly rejoined the Indians. So basically we ended up with Alan Embree for a couple of years (a fine reliever, but damn).
I hated that deal when I was a kid, and I hate it now in retrospect.
by get swoll yunel on Oct 20, 2009 3:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wasn’t that a financially driven deal? Justice was getting too expensive I think…
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Oct 20, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My very first autograph was of David Justice.
Justice was one of my favorite players at that time. Hated that deal as well.
Same thing with Thumper. Klesko was my favorite player at the time and he got traded.
After that I swore I’d never had another favorite Braves player cause they end up getting traded. I guess I should have chosen Frenchy as my favorite player from the get go. Might have seen him packing sooner. Oh well.
by Sparhawk on Oct 20, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The one I could never understand was Jermaine Dye for Michael Tucker and Keith Lockhart.
by John Holton on Oct 22, 2009 12:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I always thought that was a great trade. It happened right before the 97 season, and if you look at 97 and 98 for Dye, he was awful, posting OPSs of .653 and .606 while only playing in 135 between those years. Sure, after that he became a great player for them in 99 and 2000, before regressing a bit in 01 and getting traded for Neifi Perez, who was awful for them. Sure, Dye was good after awhile, but if that’s how he was going to play in 97 and 98, he probably wouldn’t have been with Atlanta by 99 anyway. The Braves also sent the Royals Rule V pick Jamie Walker, who was awful in 56 games for the Royals and didn’t get his career off the ground until he joined the Tigers in 02.
The Braves, on the other hand, got two of Tucker’s best seasons in his career, with OPSs of .792 in 97 and .745 in 98, but, more importantly, because he was left handed he allowed them to platoon him with Andruw Jones and work the 20 year old into the Majors slowly. Jones responded with a .745 OPS in 97 then took to more playing time in 98 perfectly with a .836 OPS, and 31 HR. So having Tucker’s lefthanded bat allowed them to develop the guy who would be their top flight centerfielder for the next decade. And the Braves got Lockhart, who was an outstanding pinch hitter for the team for 6 seasons.
The Braves got a lot more out of that Trade than the Royals. In fact, this should probably be on our list of best trades.
"At least he didn’t nail the bitchy fat girl from Hell's Kitchen."
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Oct 22, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree i always liked that trade it was a fine deal for us.
braves#1
by rockybull on Oct 22, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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