Why the Braves should sign Manny

by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 9, 2009 10:50 AM EST Comment 59 comments

Sound crazy? I thought so myself...

But here is the problem. The Braves can't get pitching. Their best bet right now is to get Kawakami to establish a presence in Japan. Bud Derek Lowe, seriously? Lets be honest, he is a workhorse and a very good pitcher, but he won't be an ace for the next 4 years.

The Braves were mediocre everywhere last season. Hitting and pitching. The Braves need a good right handed bat, a cleanup hitter that can protect Chipper. Can you name a better right handed bat than Manny Ramirez? It isn't like he would be a long-term guy, 3 years tops. Call me crazy (Smoltz left, so you may be right), but if you want to put people in the seats and have a fun season, Manny might just be the best option out there.

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I like Manny, but at this stage in his career he just isn’t worth the $20 million it would take to sign him (and he wants at least a 3 year, if not a 4 year deal). That’s a lot of money to give to someone who, while being a great hitter, is a defensive liability and a potential cancer in the locker room.

I’d MUCH rather sign Dunn. Defensive liability and LH hitter, yes, but far cheaper for less years and seems to be a decent guy.

by coldriver10 on Jan 9, 2009 11:13 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

My feelings exactly...

He’s going to be a real steal for someone.

by BraveBronco0121 on Jan 9, 2009 11:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If I see one more person say we shouldn't make a move on a pitcher because he's only a no. 2 or 3 guy I'm going to lose it

Seriously guys, the only surefire number one available this year, in trades or in the FA market, was CC. I’d sign Lowe to a 3/40 deal any day of the week. If we were to get him, Lowe and Vasquez would likely combine to give us 450 innings of 4.00 ERA pitching. That would make us a lot better even if we aren’t going to win the division.

by BraveBronco0121 on Jan 9, 2009 11:27 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Manny

would want too much money and I have heard rumors that he is a hard person to deal with in the locker room. I agree that if we could get Lowe for 3/40 that would be hard to pass up, though I think Lowe is going to want more than that. I am not really that interested in the Braves having a fun team but more interested in the Braves having a competitive team.

by bengoodfella on Jan 9, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Aren't we all...

But my point is that we won’t have one…unless the kids perform. Signing Manny may help the kids perform, won’t block the kids from coming up, and provides a contingency money-making plan if the kids don’t perform.

by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 9, 2009 12:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

By the way

How does Manny make the Braves less competetive?

by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 9, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think

Manny would make the Braves less competitive because they would have to spend $20 million on a left fielder and that is a lot of money to spend on him that could be spent at fixing the pitching staff.

by bengoodfella on Jan 9, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

if you haven't noticed...

My point is that “fixing the pitching staff” this offseason is a pipe dream. Add pieces, yes, but the only way the Braves pitching succeeds is if the young guys succeed anyway. Let them have their shot. Its the only way the Braves will win short or long term.

by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 9, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I see

what you are saying. What young guys are you talking about pitching for the Braves? Other than Hanson, we have pretty much seen what these guys have to offer, clearly they are going to continue to get better but I am not comfortable with Campillo being the 3rd starter and counting on Charlie Morton/Jo Jo Reyes.

by bengoodfella on Jan 9, 2009 2:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

As I said in an earlier post...

Our rotation looks like this (Assuming we get Kawakami or some other pitcher)

Kawakami*
Jurrjens
Vazquez
Campillo
Morton/Reyes/Hanson

There it is. The future of the Braves really depends on whether Morton, Reyes, and/or Hanson step up. Especially for Reyes, it is sink or swim time.

That means Campillo is the 4th starter (reasonable) and as for relying on Morton and Reyes, the reality is that we have to. For the future.

by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 9, 2009 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think

we may have trouble signing Kawakami if we signed Manny to the contract that he wants ($20/million per year). I thought your scenario did not include signing a free agent pitcher and signing Manny instead. I can agree with the staff you just put down, but still don’t think Manny is a great idea. The kids are our future.

by bengoodfella on Jan 9, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think...

that if anybody gives Manny $20 million per, that they need to have their heads checked.

by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 9, 2009 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

fire frank wren for not signing CC

"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."

by Swo12bv on Jan 9, 2009 12:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Agree completely.

I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 9, 2009 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

technically if we have an entire roster full of guys who are slightly above 500 pitchers and they all pitch like 200 innings…would it stand to reason that we would be in the playoffs? the logic on this might be a bit stretched but it still kind works

"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."

by Swo12bv on Jan 9, 2009 12:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Of Course

I don’t disagree with any of those points. I’m not saying that going with Lowe is a bad idea. I have heard the same rumors about Manny.

BUT…
don’t kid yourselves, nobody is even offering $20 million per, or 4 years, not even the Dodgers.

Maybe this offseason is a sign; Let the kids sink or swim (I’m looking at you JoJ Reyes, Jeff Francoeur, and Casey Kotchman). We have the bodies to fill in every available pitching slot, the problem is that they are mostly kids. Maybe we should just give them their shot. Sink or Swim…

LF is the only actual hole in the roster. Of course defensively, Manny isn’t very good, ok he sucks. But his bat is the best RH bat of this decade. Everyone who hits ahead of him becomes super man. In the Braves case, that means that Chipper…who is already super man. Talk about a middle of the lineup that will scare the poop out of the pitcher.

I guess what it comes down to is this. The Braves aren’t doing well right now. The only way they will win is if the young guys perform anyway. SO, give them their shot. If we are lucky, we are the Rays of 2009. If not, we will have seen who has it and who doesn’t, and move from there. Manny would just be a filler for now.

by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 9, 2009 11:47 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

don’t kid yourselves, nobody is even offering $20 million per, or 4 years, not even the Dodgers

The Dodgers offered a 2 year, $45 million offer in October.

I agree with you on everything you said about Manny, I just don’t think he should take up half our remaining salary cap.

by coldriver10 on Jan 9, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It's not October anymore..

Everything I have read is that the market for Manny is thin, and that nobody is throwing that kind of money around right now.

I can understand the sentiment about the money, Just saying that it is a viable option that should maybe should be looked at again considering all that has developed this offseason (or not developed depending on how you look at it).

by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 9, 2009 12:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Sign Lowe for 3 yr/42 with vesting option for fourth year all years with incentives to 16 million
Sign Kenshin 3 yr/21 incentives to 10 mil a year.
Sign Dunn 1yr/10 or trade for Nady or Swisher 5 mil
Sign Ohman 1yr/2mil
Sign Andruw at League Minimum
Sign Freddy Garcia League Minimum to 1 mil/1 yr with incentives for REAL production

Total 34 million 29 million with trade. You can structure contracts back heavy and remember you are losing gonzalez, soriano, hudson, diaz , dunn or Nady’scontracts next year. That’s at least 25 million off the books there.

Manny 20million and you still need AT LEAST TWO PITCHERS
Your looking at Kenshin and Garland for the same money.
Manny blocks prospect development in OF
Bobby gets arrested for cunt punting Manny and Atlanta Riots and burns the stadium down. No Manny

by Charmin519 on Jan 9, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Why do we need 2 more pitchers?

Really, why?

Viable options for the rotation:

Kawakami (if we get him)
Glavine (If healthy)

Jurrjens
Vazquez
Campillo
Morton
Reyes
Hanson

If we get Kawakami (certainly not a crazy guess), than that is 7 pitchers, 3 or 4 are sink or swim guys. They pitch until they pitch themselves off the roster.

by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 9, 2009 12:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

freddy garcia. bahahahaha

xavier nady. bahahahahaha

will ohman signing for 1/2. bahahahahaha

BIG JOE SUCK ONE

by bigjoe on Jan 9, 2009 12:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

We’re going to want Huddy back, and probably one of Soriano/Gonzalez.

by Land-Man on Jan 9, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Shit, letting the kids play worked in 91

by bravesguy311 on Jan 9, 2009 12:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

We had a surplus of young arms in 91’. We don’t now

by jeg on Jan 9, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh we do have a surplus of young arms

except they are attached to the likes of Pharr and Jo Jo

by bravesguy311 on Jan 9, 2009 4:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

2 more points

By Filler, I mean a roster spot, an outfield spot…and perhaps most importantly that he will fill the seats. The business end of this can’t be ignored; the Braves need to show a revenue stream if they want continued investment from the all-corporate-all-business Liberty Media. Without Smoltz and only a slim chance of a winning campaign, a media gimick like Manny might be the Braves best option to provide the entertainment value the Braves really need right now.

Also, lets not forget that the Braves have a pretty good track record with bad-clubouse guys, or did everyone forget Gary Sheffield?

by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 9, 2009 11:54 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

gary sheffield was playing for a huge contract, which he got. if ramirez got that huge contract, who knows what the hell he’d do?

BIG JOE SUCK ONE

by bigjoe on Jan 9, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Probably play baseball

He didn’t really become a bad clubhouse guy until last season.

by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 9, 2009 12:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Really?

Because I’m pretty sure he’d been asking to be traded at least once a season since ‘03 or ’04. I’m pretty confident Ortiz was about all that kept playing ball with any kind of heart in Boston, and I don’t see anyone on the Braves roster that he’d be that chummy with.

If he wasn’t ever happy in a city that revered him playing for a contender he won’t be happy anywhere, ever. Seriously. It isn’t like Boston is a bad baseball destination.

I sort of like Manny. You almost can’t help but like him. But investing that kind of money into that big of a question mark . . . no thanks.

by supesk6 on Jan 9, 2009 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That's a reasonable opinion

I’m just saying it is an option…for a team with seemingly fewer and fewer options. And when you look at it, it isn’t a bad option either.

Maybe Manny won’t be happy anywhere, but he is as likely to find happiness with on the Braves as he is on any other team in baseball.

by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 9, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I know for a fact that in Boston’s organizational meetings before the 07 and 08 seasons they were saying they needed to trade Manny because of him becoming a clubhouse cancer. The only reason they didn’t is they weren’t willing to trade him for way below market value, until he forced them to.

by cbwilk on Jan 9, 2009 2:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Manny Ramirez will never play for Bobby Cox

by jeg on Jan 9, 2009 1:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Why not?

by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 9, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Why the Braves shouldn't sign Manny

He costs too much and plays sh*tty defense.

Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball

by Yakker on Jan 9, 2009 1:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

It isn’t like the Braves don’t have money to spend.

by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 9, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The issue isn't

having money to spend, it’s spending it wisely.

In a way that helps the team as much as possible and gets the most bang for the buck. Signing Manny doesn’t do that.

Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball

by Yakker on Jan 9, 2009 4:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

And furthermore...

find me a legit option for the spot that doesn’t play bad defense. Ankiel? The Cards were asking for KJ and a high quality pitcher for Ludwick, Ankiel’s price will be higher, and higher organizationally than the Braves can afford. Abreu? Not really a middle of the order bat anymore, power numbers shrinking.

by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 9, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hard to know

Who’s currently available, but previously I’d mentioned Rocco, Bradley, and GA. None were ideal, but all are/were cheaper and have/had contractual values far closer to their actual expected values than Manny.

I believe there was talk about DeJesus awhile back, and I’m not sure what his current availability is but he could work at the right price. In no particular order, I’d also look at:

— Crawford
— Dye
— Werth
— Winn
— Brian Giles (criminally underrated)
— Holliday (probably not now, but perhaps in July, although the thought of giving Beane a chance to make up for the Hudson deal is a little scary)
— Cameron
— Damon
— Nady

I haven’t drilled down on each of these guys, but at the right price any one of them could make sense for the Braves.

Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball

by Yakker on Jan 9, 2009 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

-crawford would be really expensive, IMHO… but i would like him… i dont think his skillset is what we need tho

he is another 2 hitter, maybe a three if he shows the power everyone expects

-dye is kinda old, but if thats the only knock he is a pretty good option,… no?
-werth, is more of a platoon player than anything, i beleive his splits are horrendous.
-winn, older and not what we’re looking for in a LF, again more of a 2 hitter, or worse a 6-7 hitter
-Giles, no argument from me on this one
-Holliday, i would make it a rule to not deal with the As, they seem to win every trade (minus the Hudson deal)…. and yes i realize that isnt the best logic int he world
-Cameron, bats leadoff for MLW… and as a MLW fan it sucks to watch him strike out 150 times in 120 games or w/e… but he is a good player and a plus defender
-damon, if the contract is torn up, maybe but he is on a quick decline, althoguth all we need is a couple years so maybe he could be an option
-nady, really good option, except is he the middle of the order presence we need.

dont mean to be a jerk, just trying to play devil’s advocate a bit….

"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."

by Swo12bv on Jan 10, 2009 11:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Crawford: Only 1 year left with the Rays, but you’re right that he’ll probably be sorta expensive. Still, with Perez coming up fast, I wouldn’t be amazed if the Rays were willing to hear offers on him. Don’t get caught up on power, CC’s a net 3-4 win player and that’s what matters.

Werth: You’re underrating him. He’s easily a 2-win player. His R-on-R splits aren’t great, but he more than makes up for that in the field. Plus, his hit rates in 2H suggest he may be working through his injuries/RHP issues.

Cameron: I understand the frustration, and I wouldn’t want him leading off.

Damon: Only has 1 year left at $13M, and he hasn’t declined much as you might think. His arm is of course terrible, but in LF that’s not a tremendous issue.

Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball

by Yakker on Jan 12, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

crawford has a dirt cheap option for next year, he’s not going anywhere.
dye is old and declining
werth’s splits aren’t as horrible at diaz’s, but they’re there.he absolutely annihilated lefties, but is a little below average against RHP
winn is old and has no power
giles has no power, is old, and has some baggage…nice player though. i doubt he’d voluntarily leave the west coast either
holliday…he’s a shiny little thing, isn’t he? i’d like to see how drastic his splits are this season, though
cameron, damon shouldn’t even be considered
nady has been league average his whole career, then got a BABIP spike and a solid first half. he reverted to his career numbers in the second half.

no one that really jumps out at me from the current crop of free agents that we haven’t debated ad nauseum, i considered brad wilkerson for a split second, based on seeing him play here about 8 years ago, and didn’t realize how dire his K-rate is. yikes

2010 FAs you covered nicely…random names to consider a little bit…bay would be ideal, but he’s not going anywhere. the name that made me say “hmmmm” a little bit is AUSTIN KEARNS. his option is most certainly going to be declined next season, his walk rate is solid enough, his K-rate is…not as problematic as it once was, he’s got decent enough power…and he’s one of those guys that 10 years ago, was so CAN’T MISS that its unbelievable that he’s missed.

only thing is, he’s primarily a right fielder…he hasn’t played left in 6 years, and the sample size was tiny. but yeah…interesting name for you all to ponder

BIG JOE SUCK ONE

by bigjoe on Jan 10, 2009 11:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

“crawford has a dirt cheap option for next year”

$8.25M in 2009, hardly dirt cheap in my book. His name’s been mentioned in some trade rumors, which is why I included him, but I agree with you that he’s probably not available.

Kearns: Last 3 years show tons of injuries, power outage, more GBs. I’d be wary.

Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball

by Yakker on Jan 12, 2009 1:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

injuries?

2006: 537 AB
2007: 587 AB
2008: INJURED, 313 AB

power outage at the back end of 06 & 07 is due to RFK, which is a cavern

K-rate dropped huge from 06 to 07. GB% is right in line with his career numbers. HR/FB fell off a cliff due to park factors

BIG JOE SUCK ONE

by bigjoe on Jan 12, 2009 4:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

OK, my bad on the injuries. But I mean, it’s Austin Kearns, so it was a reasonable guess, right?? If he wasn’t injured, then I’m all the more worried about his diminishing production.

When I was talking about the power outage, I wasn’t looking at HRs, since, as you note, switching from Cincy to RFK would throw that off for 2H 06 and 07. I was focusing on his dropping FB rates, which are usually a good sign of a guy who’s losing his power:

2006: 38.7%
2007: 34.6%
2008: 32.2%

There’s no reason why FB rates should be park-sensitive. You’re right about the dropping K-rates, and it appears that he’s also compensated for the lack of power by improving his (already good) batting eye. Still, a patient singles hitter without much pop but with a lot of injury risk isn’t my idea of a good investment.

Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball

by Yakker on Jan 12, 2009 7:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

he WOULD be an upgrade over what we have now. you cannot argue that

BIG JOE SUCK ONE

by bigjoe on Jan 12, 2009 7:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Austin Powers

would be an upgrade over what they have now.

Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball

by Yakker on Jan 13, 2009 2:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

MANRAM=postseason

When was the last time Manny wasn’t in the postseason? I don’t do the internet research, but I know he was with Cleveland when they were good (in the 90’s), then Boston started winning, then the Dodgers got it together just in time to make the postseason in ‘08.
Not sure if it’s a great deal or if would guarantee a postseason, but it would certainly give us SOMETHING to be excited about. We really do need something like this now.

by Lee-Roy Jenkins on Jan 9, 2009 2:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

There is somebody that is seeing my point

I don’t think Manram=postseason, but he does help the team. He also does bridge the gap offensively. I’m sorry, I knew there would be detractors, and it isn’t the optimal situation, but it isn’t bad.

Also, remember, it won’t happen. But its an interesting scenario to think about.

by Andy Braves Fan on Jan 9, 2009 3:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

2006

FIRE FRANK WREN! GO RED SOX! I HATE THE BRAVES! SAY GOODBYE TO MY 9 GAME FLEX PLAN MONEY! YOU'LL NEVER SEE ME AGAIN!

by 10-4 on Jan 9, 2009 3:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If they are going to sign anyone

I would prefer they focus on Adam Dunn or try to trade (though this is not really what I would want them to do) for a good left fielder. At this point, I can see the Braves signing a left handed bat and trying to platoon him with Diaz.

by bengoodfella on Jan 9, 2009 3:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

"Brian Giles (criminally underrated)"

Brian Giles (criminal).

by Land-Man on Jan 9, 2009 6:25 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Brian Glies (No trade clause)

Why would he come here?

by robking on Jan 9, 2009 7:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

NTC

Actually, I think you mean 10/5 rights. But why come to ATL? Why not? SD’s going to be a wasteland next year, ATL gives him a better chance to win, he’s got PR issues in Cali and could use a change of scenery, and the Braves could probably extend him another year at $8-$10M, easy.

Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball

by Yakker on Jan 9, 2009 8:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

full no-trade clause in 2006, limited no-trade clause in 2007-08 (allowing Giles to block trades to 8 clubs: Baltimore, Boston, Detroit, Tampa Bay, Florida, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh and Washington)

BIG JOE SUCK ONE

by bigjoe on Jan 9, 2009 8:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs