Nine Best Center Fielders of All-Time

by mvandonsel on Jan 6, 2009 1:10 AM EST Comment 99 comments

Good Evening Everybody,

If you frequent this site you probably know how excited I was when the MLB Network went on the air on January 1st. To tell the truth, I have pretty much been watching it non-stop since it went live, I think I am addicted. I am creating this FanPost because I love baseball, not just the Braves, but the sport as a whole. I love everything about it the history, the home run, the strikeout, the double-play, the smell of a leather glove and freshly cut grass, the sound of the bat hitting the ball, to me baseball it poetry in motion and beauty defined.

I am also creating this FanPost because I am tired of reading about/posting about the same hot stove topics and I am hoping that this will cause some discussion/friendly debates. The MLB Network has a show where they run down the Nine Greatest _______ of All-Time. For example, tonight, they ran down the Nine Greatest Center Fielders of All-Time as well as the Nine Greatest Home Runs of All-Time. I am assuming that the follow list takes all aspects of the game into consideration since the show wasn't titled the Nine Greatest Fielding Center Fielders, or the Nine Greatest Hitting Center Fielders.

MLB Network's List:

9. Kirby Puckett

8. Jim Edmonds

7. Duke Snider

6. Ken Griffey Jr.

5. Joe Dimaggio

4. Tris Speaker

3. Mickey Mantle

2. Ty Cobb

1. Willie Mays

What do you all think of this list? Does Andruw Jones belong anywhere on this list?

I personally think that they underrated Griffey Jr., overrated Willie Mays, and my list would not include Kirby Puckett. Just missing the list was Richie Ashburn, who I believe is the only center fielder in baseball history to have over 500 put outs in at least four seasons. Some food for thought, none of the players who ended up making the list have ever had a 500 put out season.

Was anybody left out?

0 recs | Comment 99 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Any list that includes Puckett but excludes A. Jones is moronic at best… I know Andruw made some dumb plays and moves, but he’s 1 of the 3 greatest defensive CFs ever, and was an incredible hitter for a good part.

by iLukeisamazing on Jan 6, 2009 1:14 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Otis, My Man!

http://www.otisnixon.com/the_catch.html

Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball

by Yakker on Jan 6, 2009 1:15 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Oh, and

If you don’t get goosebumps hearing that, then, well, you sir are no sort of human I’d ever want to meet.

RIP Skip.

Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball

by Yakker on Jan 6, 2009 1:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

griffey ,in a historical perspective, is better than Mantle, Cobb, and Dimaggio.

by rocket8188 on Jan 6, 2009 2:36 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

The amount of ignorance oozing from your pores is outstanding.

"Debated ya right not one person agreed with me" by ATLsportsfrk on Dec 27, 2008 6:31 PM EST

by scstrato on Jan 6, 2009 12:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Edmonds is overrated.

I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 6, 2009 9:41 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Agree completely.

by iLukeisamazing on Jan 6, 2009 9:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Truth

by mburris1 on Jan 6, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I saw that and agree totally

The only list Edmonds should be on is “Ability to turn normal running catches into diving catches”. He would place 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

by Mike de La Hoz on Jan 6, 2009 6:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

saw that show. They obviously valued offense over defense except for Speaker who they pointed out had 450 outfield assists. that’s unreal. I know, different era. But from a CF, that’s amazing. The only one I have issue with is Edmonds. Andruw deserves it over him in every phase of the game except maybe BA.

by schaef888 on Jan 6, 2009 9:49 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn’t say every phase. Edmonds has a better BB% and BB/K for his career, and as a whole he’s a better offensive player. But, he’s not even as the same league as Andruw was defensively and it more than makes up the difference.

I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 6, 2009 9:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

But Edmonds made that catch at Minute Maid Park on the hill part of straight-away center field. Clearly, that makes him a defensive stalwart that makes Andruw Jones in his prime look like Jose Valentin.

Maybe it’s just me, but often I think baseball players’ defensive prowess are far too easily defined by selected plays. I agree that Edmonds can’t hold a candle to Andruw’s defense, but Edmonds has some pretty gnarly highlights out there. Sometimes I consider a CF who is always in the right place, and puts minimal effort in his putouts to be the better defender than a Ryan Freel who’s flying all over the place with reckless abandon trying to make a highlight out of what was clearly a mis-read, poorly scouted positioning.

Whom immediately comes to mind about selected highlights is David Wright, who sure, is a solid defender, but I feel that Ryan Zimmerman is better, and going to be a perennial 3B Gold Glover, and has perhaps already been denied one already, but so often, Wright’s stumbling bare-handed catch is referred to as justification for him being a great third baseman.

No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.

by royhobbs on Jan 6, 2009 10:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Pretty good points. Personally, I think if you put a highlight reel of Andruw next to one of Edmonds, Jimmy wouldn’t have a chance. That Spiderman catch on the outfield wall was the most amazing thing I’ve ever seen.

by cbwilk on Jan 6, 2009 11:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Same reason Jeter is thought to be a defensive wizard. Because of that stupid play where he dove in the stands for the ball.

I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 6, 2009 12:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Not to mention his jump throws. You know the ones he has to make because his range is so poor?

But it’s all good. He has those calm eyes.

by mburris1 on Jan 6, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

jump throws? pshaw

now THERES a jump passer

BIG JOE SUCK ONE

by bigjoe on Jan 6, 2009 4:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

GO GATORS!

Man am I psyched about Thursday night!!!

by ejruiz on Jan 6, 2009 4:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I only wish both teams could lose.

by gondeee on Jan 6, 2009 4:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree 100%...

I would take USC or Texas over either of the two teams in the “championship.”

HMMMM….I wonder if Texas could beat Oklahoma…..oh wait!

best defensive shortstop in baseball hahahahahahahahahah (omar visquel)

by mvandonsel on Jan 6, 2009 5:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

the same texas that needed a blown defensive call to beat a bad OSU team? please

UTAH, son

BIG JOE SUCK ONE

by bigjoe on Jan 6, 2009 6:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I would love to see Utah in there.

I still think USC would beat any team, except Oregon State.

best defensive shortstop in baseball hahahahahahahahahah (omar visquel)

by mvandonsel on Jan 6, 2009 6:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I wonder if Texas Tech could beat Texas? Oh wait.
I wonder if Oklahoma could beat Texas Tech? Oh wait.

By your logic, Ole Miss would beat everyone in the Big XII.

Please spare me this drivel. At least on a baseball blogs.

by mburris1 on Jan 6, 2009 6:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You have a point.

But you cannot tell me that it makes perfect sense that the BCS Championship has Oklahoma against Florida with USC, Texas, and Utah looking in from the outside. I mean if Oklahoma stomps Florida and Texas ends up ranked #2, you wouldn’t think that was weird?

best defensive shortstop in baseball hahahahahahahahahah (omar visquel)

by mvandonsel on Jan 6, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

it could be worse. we were one iowa field goal away from having a bad penn state team in there, which would have been an abject disaster.

i’m allowed to talk shit, as both a fan of a big ten school, and a student of another big ten school.

BIG JOE SUCK ONE

by bigjoe on Jan 6, 2009 6:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

A month ago when the bowls came out Utah made NO sense for the National Championship, nobody really even argued for them. But now that they beat Alabama by a farily good margin I think to myself, this team went undefeated and didn’t get a shot at the title. Bottom line we could argue about who should or shouldn’t be in all day, but I have two very valid points.
Point A: This is a baseball blog.
Point B: The BCS is a JOKE and needs to be fixed.

"The only time the Mets win is in the offseason"

by Falconzfan284 on Jan 6, 2009 6:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

food for thought.

the MWC will likely have 2 teams in the final top 10 (utah, TCU)

big east has none. ACC has none. big 12 will have 2. pac 10 1. big ten MAYBE one. SEC 2

BIG JOE SUCK ONE

by bigjoe on Jan 6, 2009 6:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The BCS is a joke. I would never argue otherwise.

Unfortunately, however, it is what we are stuck with. The system gave us OU-FL. Until there is a playoff, it’s all for not.

by mburris1 on Jan 6, 2009 6:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I for one will have a great time watching the game, cause it looks like it will be hella exciting. Of course, that’s what they said about the USC-Oklahoma championship game for the 2004 season…oi.

by soup du jour on Jan 6, 2009 7:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t want to talk about that…
Or the LSU game
Or the Boise game
Or, or, or…

by mburris1 on Jan 6, 2009 7:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Tim Teabag.

I hate that guy.

Boomer Sooner.

by mburris1 on Jan 6, 2009 5:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

maybe i can get some more info on this theory Ive had for quite some time… no CF is more overrated defensively than Torii Hunter (actually he is overrated offensively too, but i dont care as much about that)… people think this guy is a great defender and according to UZR/150 he isnt even avg. I wish i had the fielding bible, so i could find his +/-. But am i right he this guy isnt very good defensivley, he is constantly out of place and takes bad routes to balls, except he is such a great athlete he makes up for his inability to play defense by making spectacular diving catches when he should have been able to make it standing up or at worst on the jog.

How the hell he got a contract worth 5 years and 90M is beyond me, the Angels for all their intelligence has the two worst OF contracts in the world (SAarge JR 5 years 50M being the other)

"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."

by Swo12bv on Jan 6, 2009 6:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The last three seasons he is a -5, 0, and -2.

I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 6, 2009 6:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

so clearly u see those numbers and immediately think 18M a year, right?

especially considering he has a career OPS of less than 800

"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."

by Swo12bv on Jan 6, 2009 7:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

But…the highlight reel!

The funny thing is, he performed almost exactly around his career numbers this year, so if the Angels really thought he was worth the contract then they got exactly what they were planning for.

Unfortunately, he’ll also be 36-37 at the end of the deal. Fun!

by soup du jour on Jan 6, 2009 8:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ummm

He robs like, 2-3 homers per season! He made a great catch in an All-Star game, and then had a creepy, uh-oh feeling-inspiring wrestling match with Barry Bonds! Surely that makes him a gold glover.

by buzzdeadwax on Jan 7, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

My List

Shuffle the list all you want, but it’s just about right. There are some guys that I’m not sure were predominantly CFs tht could have made the list, but the guys listed are all pretty deserving. By the way, Edmonds has a career 132 OPS+ while Andruw is at 111, so the bat’s not even close.

Here we go again: http://thefulldeck.blogspot.com/

by ejruiz on Jan 6, 2009 10:29 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Correct about the bat, but Andruw’s fielding was so much better than Jim’s that it’s a joke. Jones was a much more valuable CF, end of discussion.

I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 6, 2009 11:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If You Say So.

I’m not a fan of defensive metrics, but if you can find them to show me that his glove makes up for that sort of discrepency with the bat, I’d be glad to check them out. Just to be clear, the “eye test” doesn’t do it for me in that regard. Oh, notice how I didn’t let the discussion end… Bad ejruiz! Bad!

Here we go again: http://thefulldeck.blogspot.com/

by ejruiz on Jan 6, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Andruw Jones.
Jim Edmonds.

If you’re that close minded when it comes to defensive metrics than I’m not going to try and argue with you. But if you click on the links above and scroll down to both their career UZR and their career UZR/150 the difference is tremendous. Even if you go by +/- there’s a large difference.

I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 6, 2009 11:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks.

It’s not that I’m close-minded, it’s just that there seems to be no consensus in defensive metrics and they range to much for my comfort. Those stats in the links are certainly eye opening, but I’m gonna need a little more help from you since you seem more knowledgable in the field. How does one point of UZR/150 compare to a point of OPS+? I mean, Edmonds outpaces Jones by 21 OPS+ poinst while Andruw flips the script and leads in UZR/150 by about 25. Is there any way to quantitatively compare the two? Perhaps other metrics are more analogous… Thanks for the help!

Here we go again: http://thefulldeck.blogspot.com/

by ejruiz on Jan 6, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry, re-reading my response I came off like kind of a dick. Didn’t mean it that way. In regards to the comparison of OPS+ and UZR/150, I couldn’t tell you myself. I was merely noting that while Edmonds was posting a higher OPS+ than Andruw on a fairly consistent basis, Andruw was still worth more “dollars” according to Fangraphs…hence, his defense more than made up for it.

I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 6, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I've wanted to have this debate for a while now

First, let me preface this by saying you know I love Fangraphs along with BP and many other cutting edge fansites dedicated to stats, so don’t take this the wrong way. I simply love to debate and defensive metrics is one of those stats for me that I just can’t get my head around.

On to my point – I, like our friend ejruiz above, am not a big fan of defensive metrics and the fact they can’t seem to agree very often adds to my suspicion. I will say that I am far more open to UZR and the +/- system than I was at this time last year but I still believe they are flawed. Having said that, knowing defensive metrics are not 100% accurate, is it fair to say that Andruw’s defense was enough to overcome the difference in offense between the two? In my opinion we would have to know exactly how accurate these defensive metrics are in order to make that determination, right?

So my question would be at what percentage of accuracy would your point hold true? Obviously a defensive metric that is 100% accurate holds true, but what happens if we determine that percentage is closer to 90, 85 or even 80%?

Not trying to put you on the spot, just looking to provoke some thought.

"Debated ya right not one person agreed with me" by ATLsportsfrk on Dec 27, 2008 6:31 PM EST

by scstrato on Jan 6, 2009 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Valid points, but how would we go about proving which metric is the most reliable? And by how much more than the other metrics? You seem skeptical about the general idea of a numerical way to evaluate players defensively, so I’m just curious what it is you would look for in order to gain a solid foundation of understanding.

I’m not pretending to know the in’s and out’s of the various metrics myself. For one, I’m pretty sure that UZR doesn’t account for an OF’s “arm” (please correct me if I’m wrong). My original intention was that by citing Fangraphs I was trying to show that despite being a better hitter, Edmonds was still the inferior player in their eyes.

Wasn’t trying to quote UZR as gospel, as I am still in the infact stages of understanding it myself. The difference is present in both UZR and +/-, and Fangraphs came to the conclusion that Jones was the more valuable player during several of the seasons in question.

I think I just went cross-eyed. Does that make any sense? I’m confusing myself now.

I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 6, 2009 5:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Haha...

Love the Austin Powers reference.

best defensive shortstop in baseball hahahahahahahahahah (omar visquel)

by mvandonsel on Jan 6, 2009 6:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

well we may not necessarily need to fidn which metric is better, especially if both show that Andruw is the superior defender using both UZR and +/-. at least we wouldnt need to worry about it in this case

"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."

by Swo12bv on Jan 6, 2009 6:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think that’s my point, since we can’t determine the true reliability of defensive metrics is it fair to include them in player values? I don’t know and honestly I’m in way over my head with this one, but that question has been bugging me for a while now. I would have no problem if someone could tell me these metrics were XX% accurate where XX is basically any number. At least at that point we could determine the high and low value of that player and be fairly comfortable his value lies somewhere in between, but since they can’t I have a hard time agreeing that player A’s value was 18 mil this year.

I’m with you, I think this is too much of a headache to debate. Guess I should have thought about that first, huh?

"Debated ya right not one person agreed with me" by ATLsportsfrk on Dec 27, 2008 6:31 PM EST

by scstrato on Jan 6, 2009 7:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Two words:

Fielding Percentage.

That’s all you need to look at. Its science!

by soup du jour on Jan 6, 2009 8:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Nah

I’d rather go by the gold glove lists.

"Debated ya right not one person agreed with me" by ATLsportsfrk on Dec 27, 2008 6:31 PM EST

by scstrato on Jan 6, 2009 9:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Robbed home runs are the true test of an outfielder’s ability.

by buzzdeadwax on Jan 7, 2009 12:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Come on, let’s be serious. The true mark of an outfielder is how many times a diving catch or a robbed home run is featured in a rapid-fire montage music video to 3 Doors Down.

No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.

by royhobbs on Jan 7, 2009 12:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Touche

Shame on me for neglecting the importance of a montage. And to think, I just watched “Real Genius”, with its fabulous ’we’re building a laser that can destroy the world’ montage.

"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09

by buzzdeadwax on Jan 7, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 7, 2009 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think that Andruw’s precipitous drop in production at age 29 has something to do with it. I agree that Edmonds is a bit overrated, but over the life of their career I think Edmonds is more valuable than Jones.

But give me 5 years in their prime and I would take Andruw.

by soup du jour on Jan 6, 2009 11:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Andruw Jones.
Jim Edmonds.

Same website that I linked above, so if you don’t buy into it than this probably won’t change your mind. But for his career Andruw has a higher Value Runs, Value Wins, and has been worth more money, even including his horrific season last year.

I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 6, 2009 11:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hmmm...

It seems as though the money values only start at 2002. While it does so for both, it takes away about an extra seasons worth of production from Edmonds. Moreover, Edmonds is further into his decline than Andruw. Another factor helping Jones is that his fall from grace has been so catastrophic as to limit his chances to damage his overall numbers.

I’d be willing to admit that I was wrong about Edmonds v. Jones here, but I’d be hard-pressed to accept that either doesn’t deserve to be in the top 9 CF of all-time.

Here we go again: http://thefulldeck.blogspot.com/

by ejruiz on Jan 6, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Good call on the 2002 cutoff. I’ll give you that.

I also wasn’t trying to imply that either of them deserve to be in the top-9, merely that I think Andruw was better than Edmonds. Edmonds defense was criminally overrated.

I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 6, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If we give Edmonds credit for only +5 defense over the age 25-31 years not listed and give Andruw credit for +15 defense in those years, their total values come out almost exactly the same.

Andruw 142 (BRAA) + 250 (BRAR) + 87 (FRAA) + 131 (UZR) + 23 (Pos Adj) = 633
Edmonds 342 (BRAA) + 257 (BRAR) + 27 (FRAA) – 14 (UZR) + 20 (Pos Adj) = 632

That’s if we say Edmonds was only above-average with the glove and not very good.

I don’t think either are top 9 all-time.

by 17843 on Jan 6, 2009 4:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

IDK

I can see the argument that they should be considered for one of the top 9 spots, but saying they deserve to be there is a little strong for me. I guess my point is this, the top 6 is pretty much set in stone in my mind (see my list below). Granted you could make an argument for a different arrangement within the top 6 but I just don’t see how Jones or Edmonds could possibly knock one of those guys off.

So, for spots 7 through 9 you have to consider a whole host of players; Kirby Puckett, Ken Griffey Jr., Billy Hamilton ,Larry Doby, Jimmy Wynn, Earl Averill. I might have missed someone in that group but regardless when you add in Jones and Edmonds it makes determining those final three spots very difficult.

I certainly don’t disagree with your argument that Jones and Edmonds are two of the best though, I mean honestly we’re debating the top 9 CF of ALL TIME. That’s pretty damned good company.

"Debated ya right not one person agreed with me" by ATLsportsfrk on Dec 27, 2008 6:31 PM EST

by scstrato on Jan 6, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

ummmmm

Putting Griffey in front of Snider is pretty retarded, actually.

Edmonds should not be in the top-30, actually.

‘Druw, well, i dunno. His defense puts him in top-20 territory, and I would say his offense would put him top-15. but that’s about it.

Kirby shouldn’t be in the top-15.

my top 10-

1. Willie Mays
2. Ty Cobb
3. Tris Speaker
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Joe DiMaggio
6. Duke Snider
7. Jimmy Wynn
8. Earl Averill
9. Ken Griffey Jr.
10. Richie Ashburn

with:

11. Kirby Puckett
12. Andruw Jones.

by apoxonbothyourhouses on Jan 6, 2009 10:50 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

i get it

i just hate kirby puckett…but he was a good player…i know i said he shouldn’t be top-15…but he should, actually.

by apoxonbothyourhouses on Jan 6, 2009 10:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Not a Griffey Jr. fan???

best defensive shortstop in baseball hahahahahahahahahah (omar visquel)

by mvandonsel on Jan 6, 2009 12:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

nope

by apoxonbothyourhouses on Jan 6, 2009 12:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

How is Willie Mays ahead of Cobb? Maybe I missed something about Mays’s career?

by iLukeisamazing on Jan 6, 2009 11:09 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

How Is Anyone Ahead of Mantle?

Seriously…

Here we go again: http://thefulldeck.blogspot.com/

by ejruiz on Jan 6, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

ummmm

you’re saying that Mantle was better than Ty $#%$ing Cobb?

Willie played in that football field that was, well, a football field in Candlestick and had a career batting average of .302 and 660 HRs .557 Slugging % and an OBP of .384 for 22 years. 22 years people. Not to mention the .981 fielding %.

Mantle, while amazing, had an average of .298, 536 HRs, an OBP of .421 (JESUS CHRIST!) a .557 Slugging & (the exact same as Willie) for 18 years. Fielding % is .981 in a much cozier place that is Yankee Stadium.

While Cobb had a .366 Batting Average, 117 HRs, .512 Slugging %, and an OBP of .433 (JESUS H. CHRIST!) for 24 seasons. His Fielding % is .961.

If you combined sheer #s, both offensively and defensively, then Mays has to be 1. I just put Cobb there because I hate the Yankees and he is from Georgia.

by apoxonbothyourhouses on Jan 6, 2009 12:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

???

I’m sure that the environments in which they played don’t color their stats in anyway, right? Mantle’s OPS+ of 172 is better than Cobbs at 167 and Mays at 156. In case you’re not familiar with it, OPS+ adjusts for league and park, with 100 being average. Their clearly all elite and you can’t really go wrong picking any of them, but I’ll stick to my guns here and go with Mantle as my all-time best CF.

Here we go again: http://thefulldeck.blogspot.com/

by ejruiz on Jan 6, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah. I don’t get it either. Wilie Mays also has one of the most overrated catches in baseball history. To me, Jim Edmonds full layout catch going away from home plate was better, as was Andruw Jones’s spiderman catch.

best defensive shortstop in baseball hahahahahahahahahah (omar visquel)

by mvandonsel on Jan 6, 2009 12:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

really?

while the catch was overrated, his team won the series.

based on that catch.

so, the catch isn’t that overrated, really.

by apoxonbothyourhouses on Jan 6, 2009 12:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

His team won the series based on that catch?

The catch was made in Game 1 of the 1954 World Series, a series that the Giants swept. Granted the catch was made during a tie game and we do not know how it would have turned out if Willie wouldn’t have made it, but to say that the Giants won the series because of it is incorrect in my opinion.

Now setting the relative importance of Willie’s catch aside, I believe that there are many, many catches that have been much more spectacular than that one, yet it consistently is rated as the greatest catch ever. Hell, Willie himself, doesn’t even believe that the catch was his best defensive play ever!

best defensive shortstop in baseball hahahahahahahahahah (omar visquel)

by mvandonsel on Jan 6, 2009 1:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

while i agree, you can’t say either way, so i think ur both wrong

if willie mays doesnt make the catch we dont know what happens, theres no way to tell, because that changes the entire landscape of the the world. we cnat say the giants win or the they lose, we can say we have no fucking clue what happens

"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."

by Swo12bv on Jan 6, 2009 6:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

My Take

They probably took the list three too far. IMO the top 6 is almost indisputable, after that it’s easy to make arguments for several players to be in the top 10.

1. Willie Mays
2. Mickey Mantle
3. Ty Cobb
4. Joe Dimaggio
5. Tris Speaker
6. Duke Snider

It would take me forever to make up my mine on 7 through 10 but they would be made up of 4 of the following (not listed in order)

Kirby Puckett
Ken Griffey Jr.
Billy Hamilton
Larry Doby
Jimmy Wynn
Amos Otis

Just out of the running for me:

Dale Murphy
Jim Edmonds
Andruw Jones
Vada Pinson
Wally Berger
Cesar Cedeno
Oscar Hamilton

"Debated ya right not one person agreed with me" by ATLsportsfrk on Dec 27, 2008 6:31 PM EST

by scstrato on Jan 6, 2009 12:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

man..

i forgot Hamilton and Doby

by apoxonbothyourhouses on Jan 6, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well

somehow I missed Ashburn. Just goes to show how hard it really is to determine who’s the best at anything baseball.

"Debated ya right not one person agreed with me" by ATLsportsfrk on Dec 27, 2008 6:31 PM EST

by scstrato on Jan 6, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Murphy?

I am a really big Murphy fan. Forgive me, but most of my memories have him in Right Field. How much did he play center?

by Lee-Roy Jenkins on Jan 6, 2009 10:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Quite a bit actually

He was primarily a C/1B his first four years, though most were partial years. He moved to CF in 1980 and stayed there until 1987 when he moved to RF. All total, here are his games played by position:

CF – 1041
RF – 749
1B – 209
LF – 103
C – 85

He probably doesn’t belong on my list above since he wasn’t a CF for his entire career, but I put him on there because he played more games there than any other position (plus I’m biased).

"Debated ya right not one person agreed with me" by ATLsportsfrk on Dec 27, 2008 6:31 PM EST

by scstrato on Jan 6, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

good call

I am also biased. I feel that Murphy was the best player in baseball during the 80’s. We now know that many of the other players in the late 80’s were either hyped up on coke or juiced. Murphy was so clean that he wouldn’t touch tobacco, alcohol, or even caffeine. I feel that his numbers are somehow diminished because of the drugs era. I can’t understand how anybody alive in the 80’s doesn’t vote for him in the Hall-of-Fame. He was clearly better than Puckett, Murray, Yount, Mattingly, Rice and Dawson. Where are his votes?
That said, I don’t feel he deserves to be on this list. With just 6 1/2 yrs at the position, what impact did he really have there?

by Lee-Roy Jenkins on Jan 7, 2009 12:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

10 years from now Sizemore will be number 1

by SayHeyWerd on Jan 6, 2009 4:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

15*

by SayHeyWerd on Jan 6, 2009 4:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You mean Gregor Blanco, right?

by TradeAndruw on Jan 6, 2009 6:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Nah...

he has a good shot at cracking the top 10, maybe even the top 5 if he turns in 10 seasons like his 2008.

by BraveBronco0121 on Jan 6, 2009 9:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Like anyone could even know that Napoleon

by bravesguy311 on Jan 6, 2009 4:09 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Anyone who says Willie Mays is overrated is smoking some strong stuff

He’s clearly the best CF ever. Was anyone a better defender? Maybe a couple were. A better hitter? Again, a couple can be argued there. But both? Hell no. Mays, to put it in modern perspective, fielded like Andruw Jones while hitting like Manny Ramirez. Overrated?

Personally, my own list….

1. Mays
2. Cobb
3. Mantle
4. Speaker
5. DiMaggio
6. Snyder
7. Jones
8. Edmonds
9. Griffey

by BraveBronco0121 on Jan 6, 2009 9:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I gotta know

Not picking on your list, I’d be the first to tell you that everyone has the right to their opinion, but I have to know why you think Jones and Edmonds should rank above Griffey?

"Debated ya right not one person agreed with me" by ATLsportsfrk on Dec 27, 2008 6:31 PM EST

by scstrato on Jan 6, 2009 9:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I guess that's mostly an irrational selection...

It’s not that I don’t like Griffey, but I think he’s generally one of the most overrated players of the 90s. He was a good defender, an excellent hitter, and one of the ten best center fielders ever. But at the same time, I think the gap between he and Andruw and Edmonds at their peaks is pretty slim. Out of the three, I would rank Jones as the best defender going away – in the years that Fangraphs has defensive runs calculated (2002-present), Andruw averages +2 wins in the field. His range factor numbers for the years before 2002 are even better for whatever that’s worth, but I think it’s fair to say that he was at least as good if not better before 02. So, let’s say Andruw is, at his peak, a +25 run defender. Griffey was a good defender, but he was never in Andruw’s league, and my somewhat educated estimate of his ability is about +10 runs before he became the hobbled Griffey of the new millennium. Edmonds, eh, I guess we can say he’s a bit above average but I’ve always felt he was a SportsCenter gold glover in the Torii Hunter mold – he makes a half dozen amazing grabs every year that convince everyone he’s a great fielder when, in reality, not so much.

In terms of the bat, looking at their career wOBA numbers, it looks like Andruw’s peak value is about .365 or so – above average, but not great by any measure. Edmonds and Griffey are both in the .415 range. So, realistically, I was probably thinking more about my dislike for Griffey’s reputation in the mid 90s than I was his performance. He’s probably better than Andruw, but I think the gap is probably less significant than people think – Andruw was significantly better as a defender than Griffey. As for Edmonds, I think he probably deserves the 9th spot, since he hit almost as well as Griffey and was an average fielder.

So, after some reasonable reflection…

7. Griffey Jr.
8. Andruw
9. Edmonds.

by BraveBronco0121 on Jan 6, 2009 10:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think it was irrational

Everybody has their reasons for who they like. As I said elsewhere in this post, I think a good argument can be made for several players in the 7 thru 10 spots. I also understand why someone would think Griffey is/was overrated, I personally have that opinion of Pujols – but that’s another post. For me, I just can’t get past the fact Griffey basically missed four years due to injuries (some of them freak injuries). If not for that I believe we could possibly be talking about the greatest player ever. I’m sure that’s not what someone who thinks he’s overrated wants to hear, but that’s where i’m at.

On a side note, if we were talking strictly defense I’m not sure I would pick anyone, EVER, over Andruw. No one on this list could match his athleticism, route running, instincts and positioning combined. A lot of these guys might have had two or three of these skills but none, in my opinion, but the package together quite like Andruw.

Appreciate you taking to time to respond!

"Debated ya right not one person agreed with me" by ATLsportsfrk on Dec 27, 2008 6:31 PM EST

by scstrato on Jan 6, 2009 11:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

One of these days I'm going to have to hear why you think Pujols is overrated...

but, as you said, that is one for another day and another thread.

by BraveBronco0121 on Jan 6, 2009 11:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh man

See there, I had it slipped in all nice and neat so nobody would notice then you had to go and bold it. If I get banned I’m blaming you…

"Debated ya right not one person agreed with me" by ATLsportsfrk on Dec 27, 2008 6:31 PM EST

by scstrato on Jan 6, 2009 11:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

BLASPHEMY!!!!

best defensive shortstop in baseball hahahahahahahahahah (omar visquel)

by mvandonsel on Jan 7, 2009 2:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t even have words to describe this…

I mean. Pujols. Overrated. These words do not fit together. And you sir, are appalling.

by mburris1 on Jan 7, 2009 2:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You said it, we’re all entitled to our opinions, and one of these days, I too would like to see your rationale to why Pujols is overrated. All I want to really mention for now is that his $100m contract is a bigger steal than Enron, and that higher-paid, less-accomplished, not-as-humanitarian first basemen like Mark Teixeira or Miguel Cabrera aren’t worthy enough to hold his ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease.

No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.

by royhobbs on Jan 7, 2009 8:50 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs

Well

I didn’t say it was a rational thought, nor logical. I do agree that he is underpaid, I just don’t think he’s the baseball god some make him out to be.

Maybe one day I’ll share, just not ready for that flame war yet.

By the way, may I quote you on your wonderful analogy?

"Debated ya right not one person agreed with me" by ATLsportsfrk on Dec 27, 2008 6:31 PM EST

by scstrato on Jan 7, 2009 11:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry man!

by BraveBronco0121 on Jan 7, 2009 11:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

More than welcome to

The Pujols issue is something that any rational baseball fan would enjoy debating, but my personal stance is that anyone who tries to underrate a guy like Albert Pujols has to know they’d be fighting an uphill battle. The stats, the hardware, the ring, accomplishments, humanitarianism, economics – kind of hard to argue any of it.

But don’t worry – I wouldn’t flame you if go for it, after all it’s just an opinion.

No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.

by royhobbs on Jan 7, 2009 11:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

+ Infinity

“…aren’t worthy enough to hold his ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease.”

Classic.

by buzzdeadwax on Jan 7, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Pujols overrated? Hmm…methinks you’ve been getting in our good graces all these months so that when the time was right you could rip our collective hearts out with a detailed fanpost on the subject. Very well. I eagerly await…

I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 7, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I pretty much agree with this.

Except it’s Duke SNIDER, and there’s no chance in hell that Andruw is better than Griffey Jr. when rated in this metric. Edmonds doesn’t belong in the discussion.

by Land-Man on Jan 6, 2009 10:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Damn you for pointing out my inadequate spelling!

by BraveBronco0121 on Jan 6, 2009 10:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

On my list, I have Mantle and Cobb flipped (I only wish I could’ve seen Mickey hit), and Griffey at 7.

by soup du jour on Jan 6, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Cobb is very interesting...

because in all honesty, I have no idea how his game would translate in the post-deadball era.

I guess for me it comes down to this – do you want to rank who you would think is best in a neutral environment or who was the most dominant during his own time as a professional ballplayer. I think that, if we use the first criterion, almost all of the older players would be significantly downgraded. Over time, we’ve seen athletes become stronger and faster while training for professional success at young ages. Thus, I would contend that over time, the average baseball player has gotten significantly better over the century plus of the professional game. With that in mind, I tend to build in to my own mental ratings a bit of an adjustment for this. I’m about to run out to lunch, so I’ll have to continue this train of thought at another time. It’s an interesting discussion though.

by BraveBronco0121 on Jan 7, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs