Jordan Schafer's Stats Tell the Real Story. Haters Be Damned!
by ATLandUNC on Jan 28, 2009 4:12 AM EST
411 comments
I know some people look at Jordan Schafer's 2007 stats with a bit of skepticism. Many believe that his mediocre numbers in 2006 before and his apparent drop off in 2008 show an anomaly that may have been chemically enhanced. But lets take a closer look at his 2007-2008 splits where he supposedly dropped off.
2007 = The alleged HGH year
2008 = 50 game suspension and comeback
--------------------------------------------------------------
2007 - 15 HR in 565 ABs = HR every 37 AB
2008 - 10 HR in 297 AB = HR every 29 AB
---------------------------------------------------------------
2007 - 63 RBI in 565 AB = RBI for ever 9 AB
2008 - 51 RBI in 297 AB = RBI for every 6 AB
----------------------------------------------------------------
2007 - 10 triples in 565 AB = triple ever 56.5 AB
2008 - 6 triples in 297 AB = triple every 49.5 AB
-----------------------------------------------------------------
2007 - 56 walks in 621 PA = walk every 11 PA
2008 - 49 walks in 346 PA = walk every 7 PA
-----------------------------------------------------------------
2007 - 126 Ks in 565 AB = K every 4.5 AB
2008 - 88Ks in 297 AB = K every 3.4 AB
-----------------------------------------------------------------
2007 - 49 doubles in 565 AB = double every 11.5 AB
2008 - 18 doubles in 297 AB = double every 16.5 AB
-----------------------------------------------------------------
2007 - .374 OBP
2008 - .378 OBP
----------------------------------------------------------------
2007 - 23 for 38 in SB (61%)
2008 - 12 for 17 in SB (71%)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
* Improved - HR, RBI, Walks, Triple rate, SB %, and OBP
* Regressed - Average, Doubles rate, and his Ks went up.
* Important to remember: Jordan jumped from A to AA in between 2007-2008. Some statistical decline typically comes with this jump. Jordan seemed to handle it quite well.The belief that Jordan's power dropped way off after his "HGH year" is a complete fallacy. If Jordan can continue this progression and continue to work hard then I think he will make everyone forget about the allegations.
I for one am very excited to see what he can do in Atlanta. I think he can and will be a very special player for the Braves for a long time.
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hey
Very good post.I am tired of hearing all the negative about this kid,he will be good fit for the braves this year.He would already be starting CF,if it wasnt for the 50 games,hes that good on defense.
by fatazfoot on Jan 28, 2009 7:45 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Excellent stuff
This is the kind of post that makes for a great web page. Keep it coming.
by Mike de La Hoz on Jan 28, 2009 9:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m worried about his K rate jumping like that, but that can be explained by the adjustment time he had to endure by jumping into the middle of a season.
I wonder now what his K rate was as the season progressed? Does anyone know a site that would have info like this?
by soup du jour on Jan 28, 2009 8:09 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
yep
http://firstinning.com/players/Jordan-Schafer-a/
Halfway down that page they offer a month-by-month breakdown of Jordan’s 2008 season.
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 28, 2009 8:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the link…it smells like pure gasoline.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 28, 2009 9:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Um...
I don’t know how many Jordan Schafer haters you’re going to find here. There are some of us who are very concerned about his rather awful platoon splits, though.
That being said, maybe I’m a hater because I see him not as a star but a solid starter going forward.
by BraveBronco0121 on Jan 28, 2009 9:25 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Stay away..
..from platoon splits (well not all the time) but with such limited data, i.e. small samples – platoon splits can be miss leading at times.
by RainDelay on Jan 31, 2009 11:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
#1.
I had Schafer as our #1 prospect this offseason thanks to excellent scouting reports, solid stats and proximity to the majors. of course, that was before Hanson torched the AFL, but my point is that I’m very high on him as a prospect. Nice post.
by ejruiz on Jan 28, 2009 9:46 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I guess this is a question for gondeee, but are we gonna do another top 25 list before the season starts, or before Spring Training? It’d be interesting to see how people’s minds have changed in just a few months.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 28, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you’re gonna analyze, do it right instead of quoting stats like RBI and TRIPLES for god sakes.
K:BB and ISO both went up, but that K-rate…horrifying.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 28, 2009 12:09 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The post
originally started out as simply a comparative show of some basic power stats to show his numbers didn’t actually decline like many thought they did. Hence no K/BB or ISO. Just keeping it basic.
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 28, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He needs another half season of AA, and maybe some AAA before he makes it to the big club. I believe Josh Anderson is fully capable of starting CF for us this season, or maybe a platoon with Infante. I know, I know… Infante in CF? I don’t know how good he would be out there, but I saw one game he started in CF and he looked ok. IDK, the lefty starters in our division are going to do well against whoever we send out there, so maybe just leave Anderson out there for lefties as well…(Satana, Hamels, Moyer always dominates us, Andrew MIller is a lefty, and Chico!) <theres probably a few more LHstarters, thats all I can recall…oh yeah, Scott douche canoe Olsen…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 1:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Theres a lot wrong with this.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 28, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well....
I can safely say that is the first “Infante for CF” argument I’ve heard. Congrats?
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 28, 2009 2:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Actually, there was alot about Infante in center, when Kotsay first when down last season…dude! I wish I was first!!!
This is something I found to verify my opinion:
Tigers manager Jim Leyland said he wants to leave Craig Monroe in left field, so if Granderson gets hurt or needs to be sat down against left-handers this year, Infante could see some time at the position. Brent Clevlen, who will open the year in Triple-A, would be another option to fill in.
Feb. 19 – 4:10 a.m. ET
Source: Detroit News
If Leyland thinks its even a slight possiblity, then I feel completely comfortable throwing the idea on the table…
Anderson hit like .140 against lefties, but over .350 against righties last season…hes fast as hell too, why not want him at the top of your lineup versus a righty (which is most nights)…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Because he can’t walk, and his high average was inflated by a high BABIP.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 28, 2009 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The non-walking issue is a problem, your right about that…
Your right about the high BABIP too, and I agree that he isn’t going to hit .350 or anything close. However, he does make alot of contact with the ball and has a ton of speed (which explains why he has alot of seasons with a high BABIP). It’s normal for fast players to have a high BABIP, especially with his low-power contact skillz.
I think he could hit for .280-.300 pretty easily, his low walk totals would result in a low OBP (.320-.340), but with his abilitiy to steal whenever he wants would be worth it IMO.
Check out Ryan Freel…Anderson is pretty similar to him…and the Reds usually found a place for him in the lineup.
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Reds also found a place in the lineup for Corey Patterson…and did so by giving him more PAs than a guy like Adam Dunn.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 28, 2009 3:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree the Reds suck…I should have mentioned that Freel received ALOT of interest from other teams (I especially remember 2004-2006 (when he was healthy)). The Reds refused to trade him. He was seen as a very valuable commodity, I’m glad you don’t disagree with that comparison to Anderson…Good Job!
BTW, you would make more sense saying “more games than Jay Bruce”, since Bruce was a centerfield and Dunn was a left fielder. Patterson played 0 games in left field, Dunn played 0 games in centerfield. And Dunn actually had more PAs than Patterson anyways…so your f*cking wrong
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 4:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, the Reds routinely had Corey Patterson LEADING THE FUCK OFF so no, Dunn did not get more PAs than Patterson per game.
But I guess I should have been more specific.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 28, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, I’d actually rather have Patterson leading off than Dunn…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 4:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dunn would be tight in our number 4 spot though!!!
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 4:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, then you’re a retard. No offense.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 28, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d personally rather have the guy that gets on base 38% of the time than that gets on base 29% of the time, but thats just me.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 28, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Every person associated with major league baseball would laugh at a lineup of with Dunn leading off….I mean Patterson sucks big time, but Dunn leading off?
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah. The purpose of a leadoff hitter is to get on base. Dunn gets on base.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 28, 2009 4:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The purpose of every hitter is to get on base…the lead off hitter should get on base and have a better possibility of getting around the bases faster while the stronger guys try to hit the ball farther…thats why the super fast Patterson led off and the super power Dunn hit 4-5…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 4:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just because its widely accepted, doesn’t mean its correct.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 28, 2009 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Then why not just put Chipper or McCann at first? Cause they are slow as sh*t. You want a guy at leadoff that can atleast reach 2nd base on a ball hit over the outfielder’s head.
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 4:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
…and you want the guy that hits the homeruns actually hitting behind people…batting lead off, no one would be on base, so hes not as big as a threat to pitchers, so the walks would drop off ALOT, followed by that his OBP would drop ALOT since he doesn’t hit for sh*t…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just to amuse myself, I did this.
Now isn’t that interesting?
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 28, 2009 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Those things use last season’s stats…
Dunn batted 4-5 last season, so there was usually people on base in front of him…pitches are more frightened when a power hitter has goes on base, cause it could hurt them more.
Dunn batting 1st, pitchers wouldn’t be see him as big as a threat, cause no one would be on base. He would’t get walked near as much, and he would get on base near as much. He’d get some nastier pitches too, cause pitchers would be alot mroe comfortable throwing to him….
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 4:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn’t the user input an OBP and SLG?
by mattdiaz4life on Jan 28, 2009 4:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, isn’t throwing strikes to Adam Dunn generally considered unfavorable based on the possible outcomes of an at-bat with him?
by mattdiaz4life on Jan 28, 2009 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Your arguement is so incredibly flawed it’s not even worth my time to argue. The majority of the time Dunn gets walked it’s not because the pitchers let him…it’s because he has a good knowledge of the strikezone and pitchers no that he will hammer a mistake…no matter where in the order he is batting and no matter how many people are on base.
This is like baseball 101.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 28, 2009 5:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I used career numbers. Fail.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 28, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no…you fail…career stats for dunn=still no batting lead off, which is the point you are trying to make, Dunn is incredibly consistent, but that doesn’t help your argument in this case (batting lead off that is)…
and smoltz beard…he does have good knowledge of the strike zone, but pitchers aren’t going to pitch him in the strike zone anyway (especially with runners on)…
this arguement is completely ridiculous…why would you rather have Dunn up to bat with people not on base, than with people on…and pitchers are definitely going to be more tough with him with two guys on base than with noone…meaning he will strike out even more and walk less
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 5:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, this argument is completely ridiculous. It looks as though you contradicted yourself in that last paragraph.
by mattdiaz4life on Jan 28, 2009 5:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So yeah...
That Jordan Schafer guy. Anyone ever heard of him?
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 28, 2009 5:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
why would you rather have Dunn up to bat with people not on base, than with people on…and pitchers are definitely going to be more tough with him with two guys on base than with noone…meaning he will strike out even more and walk less
Pitchers are tougher on him with men on? But as a lead off hitter he would come up to bat more times with nobody on base, and because of that he would strike out more? Using your reasoning, wouldn’t he strike out less?
Nobody on = pitchers pitch to him easier = less outs to me, not more
best defensive shortstop in baseball hahahahahahahahahah (omar visquel)
by mvandonsel on Jan 28, 2009 6:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry I worded that sh*tty…I should have made it clear that Dunn strike out alot, I didn’t mean that pitchers will throw him balls straight down the middle, but he will get more “hittable” balls and pitchers won’t give up on him on 3 and 1 and settle for a walk. Thats less walks, and Dunn being the notorious strike out artist (160-200Ks) that he is means instead of those walks, he will be K’ing more, while getting a few more hits too of course … meaning more strike outs and less walks…
on top of that,,,are you all forget all the benefits of having your power guy in the middle of the lineup???
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 6:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dude…the reason Dunn strikes out so much is because he consistently works deep in the count. He sees alot of pitches, and takes bunches of walks and K’s alot in the process.
How in the world does him getting “more hittable balls” translate into him striking out more?
And we were never arguing about where Dunn should be in the batting order, simply that he is a better leadoff hitter than Patterson. So you’e entire last statement means nothing.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 12:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thats actually a really good point. (that he works the count so well)
However, I still believe he is a crappy hitter, so more hittable balls, means more “I think I might be able to hit this, so I’m going to swing”…him being a crappy hitter will, IMO, lead to him missing more of those types of pitches and therefore K more, BB less…but also more Hs and HRs (Im not saying he will K EVERY AB, just more often then he is K’ing right now)
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 8:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, that is your opinion…and I personally believe you to be 100% wrong.
Serious question…have you ever watched him hit on a regular basis? Or are you just going by the general consensus in the baseball community. I would bet the latter.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 9:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, It is my opinion, you have yours, and others have theirs. Its great to be in America, and have the freedom to have an opinion.
As far as watching him on a consistent basis? No, I don’t. I hardly have enough time to watch most of the braves games…I’m going by my view on his statistics, what Ive heard/seen in the past, and reports written about him…thats why its MY opinion…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 9:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Man, my head hurts. You’re beyond repair.
I’d rather have Dunn lead off than Josh Anderson. Period.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 28, 2009 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Enough
Yeah I had enough, this was fun at work, but I’m home now and I have a beautiful girl to take out for mexican…
my opinion is the object of baseball is to have a good contact hitter (which Dunn is not, he is strictly power) batting first and the rest of the guys try to get him home…its easier having a speedy guy who can make it from 1st to home with a double…its also pretty convienent having a power guy in the middle so if your 2-3 guys can’t move him around the bases, then that guy can knock it out…thats my point, alot of the great brains in baseball agree with this philosophy, and it seems to work. Having Dunn leading off would be stupid as sh*t IMO, thats why nobody has put him there before…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 6:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dunn actually isn’t a bad baserunner. He’s smart, and knows when to pick his spots. Goes first to third very well.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 28, 2009 7:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
See above, and try staying on topic next time.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 12:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he does have good knowledge of the strike zone, but pitchers aren’t going to pitch him in the strike zone anyway
So he’ll just take a walk then…which is exactly my point.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 12:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
-2599985256 or something
First off, I understand what Joe is saying about wanting the guy with a higher OBP hitting lead off. However, if here were to be penciled into the lead off spot for a MLB team, whomever the manager of said team is should be shot immediately.
2nd, dude arguing about how Dunn is pitched to and all that. Please stop now. You make no sense at all and my head is starting to hurt.
I’m glad I’ve been busy and missed this when it was happening.
by TheSportsIdiot on Jan 30, 2009 4:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Red Sox wouldn’t have laughed considering they gave Youkilis 467 PAs from the leadoff spot in 2006 and he in turn gave them a .385 OBP.
Honestly man, just because something is widely accepted doesn’t make it the stone cold truth. One former practice that was widely accepted was a group of people making the Jews wear pieces of flair…they’re called Nazis.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 28, 2009 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Youkilis is a MUCH better hitter than Dunn…stupid comparison…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Uh
Youk’s career OPS: .857
Dunn’s career OPS: .900
Youk’s value lies in the fact that he’s a great (and versatile) defensive player in addition to putting up great offensive production.
by get swoll yunel on Jan 28, 2009 5:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Youks had a career year last year
But other than that, his offense doesnt even compare to Dunn’s. Other than average Youk has nothing on him.
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 28, 2009 6:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Youk batted leadoff last season cause he was hitting at .330 during the time…Dunn hit .230 most of last season…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 6:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And before last season
Youk had never hit above .290, hit more than 18 HR, or had more than 83 RBI. So all I am saying is that statement that he Youk is MUCH better than Dunn seems stupid. Thats all. You have to have more than 1 good season, Dunn has had several.
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 28, 2009 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and Dunn has only hit over .250 once!!!
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 6:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Batting average doesn’t hold a lot of weight, dude.
Especially when you’re good at getting on base and hitting for power.
You want guys who get on base a lot to hit towards the top of the order. You also want guys who hit for power to hit in the middle. If your decision (hypothetically) comes down to a guy who doesn’t get on base much, but has good speed (Corey Patterson, for example) or someone who gets on base alot (Dunn, for example), you should choose the guy who gets on base more. Considering this merely hypothetical and we already have a guy that gets on base at a pretty good clip (Blanco), you’re right, the argument is kind of silly.
by get swoll yunel on Jan 28, 2009 6:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Batting average isn’t the most detailed stat, but its clear, thats why I was using it…Dunn has a consistently terrible batting average, that makes it pretty clear that he is not a great hitter…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 6:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You’re using BA because it’s the only stat that helps your argument.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 12:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, its a simply way to prove that Dunn is a crappy hitter (since its been low for his entire career)…and that IS my argument…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 8:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How can Dunn be a crappy hitter when the point of hitting is getting on base and he does that as well as anyone in the game today? You don’t have a leg to stand on with this argument.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 29, 2009 8:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As the MLBTR writer makes it clear in the post I wrote at the bottom of this page, “And you’re right: Youk is a contact guy, while Dunn is pretty much going to go yard, strike out or walk.” If Dunn was a good hitter, then he would be one of the top 10 players in the MLB. The point of hitting is getting on base, you are right about that, however getting put on base kinda neglects a hit. Thats why the give it a seperate Statistical category (BB).
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 9:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You’re ridiculous. Let me make this clear, THE POINT OF HITTING IS GETTING ON BASE! Dunn does that, therefore, he is a good hitter.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 29, 2009 9:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OK, I understand your position on hitting, and with him getting on base alot, does make him a good hitter from your perspective.
My view on hitting is actually hitting the ball into play consistently, and not just getting walked and hitting homers…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 9:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yet
He has hit 40 HR with about 100 RBI 6 times. I would call that better.
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 28, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Power wise, of course…contact wise not so much…Youkilis had a much better season making contact with the ball…
Do you think Dunn would have over 100 RBIs batting with no one in front of him???
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 6:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You mean
Like he has done in Cincinnati for 6 years?
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 28, 2009 6:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ATLandUNC
+1
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 12:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I need to just take a mental note not to argue with people who think batting average and RBI are valuable stats.
I think most of us here would benefit from this.
by get swoll yunel on Jan 28, 2009 6:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
When the BA is consistenly low over like 6-7 seasons, then it simply means you aren’t a good hitter…it might not be valuable in a game/or maybe even season analysis, but over a range of seasons, its simply an easy way of telling if someone is a good hitter or not…
I didn’t bring up RBI, so Im not arguing for that, although it does prove why power hitters are in the middle of the lineup—because the ability to hit the ball farther benefits the runners on base getting home…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 8:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Considering Dunn had like 25 solo bombs last year, I wouldn’t be to worried about his RBI total. Hell, if he had the 1-2-3 hitters that we do hitting in front of him I think he’d be a lock for 125.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 12:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thats what Im saying…In the middle of the lineup he would drive in alot more runs!
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 8:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You lost respect when you brought up RBI. What a horrible stat
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 28, 2009 7:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t bring up RBI, that other guy did. I was responding to his words.
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 8:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
BATTING AVERAGE!!!1111
Jeremy Giambi led off a bit for the 2002 Athletics too.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 28, 2009 6:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he wasn’t really a power house either…which is a major variable to every point Im trying to make…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 6:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He’s SLOWER than Dunn, which was a central part of your argument.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 28, 2009 7:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Youk batted leadoff in 2006.. his avg was 270… the year before 270, the year before that 250…. the reason he batted leadoff was because he was On base around 40% of the time (the exact same number Dunn is on base)… Youk and Dunn are equally slow.
You don’t need to be a great hitter to be a great leadoff guy, you need to be on base.. look at Ricky Henderson (best leadoff guy in history, he would have been w.o the speed) becuas ehe was on base 40% of the time and his avg was rarely above 300
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 28, 2009 7:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey slapnuts, can you at least keep your years straight? I clearly stated that Youk was batting leadoff for them in 2006.
Your argument goes to shit rather quickly when you just make up your points.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 12:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No…it’s actually not a stupid comparison…you just have no clue what you’re talking about.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 12:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just because they are both slow and have nice OBPs doesn’t make them comparable…Youkilis is a contact hitter that managed to have a career year and hit 30 hrs, Dunn is a consistent power hitter only, if he had the contact skills of Youkilis then he would have a 20 million dollar contract right now, and be in the same class as Manny/Arod/Pujols…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 8:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he’s had one year above 300… he is genreally 270 which is better than Dunns but its not considered a contact hitter. Pierre is a contact hitter (career avg well abhove 300 yo believo)
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 29, 2009 9:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Godwin!! I haven’t seen him in a while.
by soup du jour on Jan 28, 2009 9:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Godwin's Law
You lose.
Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball
by Yakker on Jan 29, 2009 1:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
haha, I forgot he compared MLB managers to nazis…poor poor Ryan Braun
...catsports...
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm so disappointed...
I was actually stealing the line from a hilarious movie, but everyone on this site gets -1 since no one pulled it. You all sicken me.
I had never heard of Godwin’s Law before, actually. Just read the Wiki page…interesting read.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Office Space
best defensive shortstop in baseball hahahahahahahahahah (omar visquel)
by mvandonsel on Jan 29, 2009 1:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
too late
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Damn you...
SCUBA STEVE!!
best defensive shortstop in baseball hahahahahahahahahah (omar visquel)
by mvandonsel on Jan 29, 2009 1:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Big Daddy
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 29, 2009 9:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh
Yeah, I sorta got that, but got so excited to drop a Godwin reference I glossed right over it.
Plus, in my brain, for some reason, it’s “peaces of flare.”
Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball
by Yakker on Jan 29, 2009 4:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I wasn’t sure if I was going to get booed out of TC for good because I was sure some people wouldn’t get the line…but to have no one pick up on it was truly disappointing.
Good looks on the Godwin reference, that’s an interesting theory.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ryan Freel has the ability to play more than one position.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 28, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Your right, and that adds a ton to his value, but so can Infante and thats the guy who got all this sh*t started…I personally think Infante can play a few games in CF…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 4:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Theres a reason he’s a “utility player”
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 28, 2009 4:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Theres a reason I said a few games and not every game…if you tell me Infante isnt talented enough to start a few games then you are crazy, its not a crime for guys that are labeled as utility players to start (DeRosa did pretty well at it)…why would we sign him to a 4.5 million contract for 2 years? cause he is a really good utility player, capable of starting (whether it be at 3rd base for Chipper’s injury, or LF, 2nd, SS, or even CF…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
DeRosa >>> Infante.
And Infante should never be in CF unless we’re in dire straits.
by get swoll yunel on Jan 28, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
DeRosa has power and a better contact skills and is more valuable defensively and understands walking
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 28, 2009 7:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t say the Infante was better than DeRosa…I said that DeRosa was labeled as a utility guy and he is a starter…IMO, Infante is capable of starting every now and then (although we don’t want him starting 160 games).
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 8:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh.
Gregor Blanco is fine in CF and the leadoff spot. He was better than Josh Anderson last year and should remain so this year.
by ejruiz on Jan 28, 2009 3:48 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don’t really understand how Blanco is necessarily “better” than Anderson… it’s basically a wash to me.
Anderson hits for a higher average, is a more effective base stealer, and seems to have slighly (ever so slightly) more power potential, but he can’t take a walk for shit and is about a year and a half older…
Blanco is damn good at getting on base, but is a pretty shitty base stealer, and has no power to speak of at all. And as far as I can tell, there are roughly equal in defense.
It seems kind of unnecessary to have them both on the roster, though.
by get swoll yunel on Jan 28, 2009 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Base stealing is irrelevant since we don’t do it at all.
Blanco reaches base more, which tends to matter more than HITZ!!!
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 28, 2009 5:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You're right
It’s something I pointed out below.
I like to contradict myself in the same topic.
by get swoll yunel on Jan 28, 2009 5:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Cox doesn't call for many steals . . .
. . . but he usually gives the green light to players who’ve shown themselves capable of stealing a base.
I don’t see any reason to think that Anderson’s base stealing wouldn’t have an impact for the Braves.
by Lennox on Jan 28, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think i have to agree. Cox used to let Fookie run… I think Anderson would have the same green light… but thats just conjecture. I still dont think either Blaco or Anderson should play for anyone… but such is life
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 28, 2009 7:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, just look at the '99 team
6 guys in double digits in steals, 4 of them with 19 or more. When Bobby has guys that can run, he lets them run.
by Lennox on Jan 28, 2009 7:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Very good point. Back when Chipper was fast Bobby’d let him run all the time.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 28, 2009 9:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Personally
I think both Anderson and Blanco are both 4th outfielder types. Neither really bring enough to warrant a starting job IMO.
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 28, 2009 4:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Most people will agree with this…but, who else do we got? Schafer needs more maturity time at AA, IMO. I believe Anderson has more potential than Blanco, hes done awesome based on the small sample of ABs hes had at the MLB level. Hes a guy that could steal 40 bases…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thats the problem
We dont really have anyone better unless Wren lands a LF before the season starts. I think Schafer is ready to go in CF from day one though. I wonder if Brandon Jones could earn himself a LF job with a goo spring.
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 28, 2009 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the stats from this post prove Schafer doesn’t need more time at AA, he needs some time at AAA.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 28, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Didn’t Blanco have like a .400+ OBP for quite some time at the beginning of last season. It’s dangerous to try and predict a guy’s future based off small sample sizes. Anderson’s potential has pretty much peaked as a player and it’s unlikely he’s going to give you much more than a .300/.330/.360ish sort of line. And him stealing 40 bags would be more realistic if he played on a club that placed an emphasis on running, which the Braves do not.
by get swoll yunel on Jan 28, 2009 5:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Its a possibility that Schafer plays well in ST and gets the CF job (that would be awesome IMO, I think he will eventually be a great player), and I could see a Brandon Jones/Matt Diaz platoon in left…Diaz just hits lefties too well for him not to get PT against them…Brandon Jones could still break out, with his athelitc ability, and be a solid player too…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 4:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Front page!
woot woot
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 28, 2009 5:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
hahaha
+1
best defensive shortstop in baseball hahahahahahahahahah (omar visquel)
by mvandonsel on Jan 28, 2009 6:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Guys on this site who know more than everybody
Take all of the collective baseball knowledge in the history of the game. Throw it away. Take the men who are respected as some of the great managers (by reputation and by win loss record): The Connie Mack, John Mcgraw, Leo Durocher, Casey Stengel, Billy Martin, Earl Weaver, Tommy Lasorda, Bobby Cox. All idiots.
There are guys on this board who know much much more than these “traditionalists”. Anderson’ speed doesn’t matter, because we don’t run? Yeah all of our slow footed, non-base stealers from last year’s squad should have been taking off like Otis and Deion. Maybe we didn’t run because we didn’t have anybody who could?
Adam Dunn leading off? Guys there is a reason that people like Dunn have hit middle of the lineup. He is in the position to drive in runs based upon being a “true outcome guy”. He can drive the ball (good with runners on), hit a sac fly (only a “prodcutive out” if runners are in scoring position), or strikeout (as opposed to hitting into a double play). A walk leading off would pretty much = a walk in the four spot, no?
by niekromurphy on Jan 28, 2009 7:09 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I think the argument above went completely over your head
The entire point was that guys with high .OBP are more valuable leading off than “speedy, contact” (with shitty .OBP, such as Juan Pierre) guys. When a guy is hitting early in the order, the idea is for him to get on base so he can be driven in by the guys with power behind him.
This is a pretty basic concept, and no one is claiming to be better than a HOF manager because of it.
Though, old man Bobby is certainly not above second guessing with some of the questionable moves he makes strategically. His value mainly lies in the fact that players love playing for him.
by get swoll yunel on Jan 28, 2009 7:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, you’re right about the point, and from what I skimmed from the above argument, I get the base argument that OBP + leadoff = good. I don’t like Dunn in the leadoff role because you’re misusing his power. Put good OBP guys in front of him and he drives them in. I would not want a pitcher coming up to bat in front of him, which is why Dunn = cleanup.
If this point was made, then ignore me.
by soup du jour on Jan 28, 2009 9:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
oh, hell, I just saw it below. Disregard, cocks, etc. etc.
by soup du jour on Jan 28, 2009 9:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Dunn leading off
You completely missed my point…
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 12:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Leading off
1. Babe Ruth- Gets on base a lot.
2. A pitcher- To bunt him over.
3. Some guy
4. Bill Pecota
by niekromurphy on Jan 28, 2009 7:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Bunting is one of the stupidest things you can do.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 28, 2009 7:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree with every fiber of my being.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 28, 2009 9:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Giving away an out for an extra base is inherently stupid.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 28, 2009 9:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We’re just gonna have to leave this one because you’ll never get me to change my mind. Moving a runner into scoring position is good baseball. to me, this isn’t even an arguable point.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 28, 2009 9:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Run Expectancy Matrices seem to indicate otherwise...
by BraveBronco0121 on Jan 28, 2009 10:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know what those are. So poppycock. I’ll go with a lot of the advancing trends in the game, like I was totally with the Adam Dunn leading off argument, but nobody is going to convince me that sacrificing is stupid.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 29, 2009 12:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It does have it’s place…but there are statistics (evil word, I know) that show it is in a limited amount of situations.
But yes, it can be valuable.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 12:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well of course in a limited amount of situations it’s stupid, but Big Joe’s argument was that the practice itself is inherently stupid, which is just wrong. No, I don’t think Chipper or McCann should be bunting with no outs and a guy on first, hell, those two should never bunt, but there are good times for it.
I see stats in my nightmares.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 29, 2009 2:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, as far as it goes...
I tend to think that sacrifices have their place, but it’s a pretty limited one. Those contraptions I mentioned above – Run Expenctancy Matrices – compare the average runs scored in various base/out scenarios. BPro, Tom Tango, etc. have them available for free on their websites.
So, if we look at one, we see that with a man on first and no outs, the average team scores .953 runs. Change the base/out situation to man on second and one out, your run expectancy drops to .725. So it seem that in the average situation, it’s a bad idea.
Now, with the pitcher at the plate, it’s probably a good idea to bunt the runner over. Other than that, only a few late game/high leverage situations can justify a sacrifice in my opinion.
by BraveBronco0121 on Jan 29, 2009 9:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course it’s higher with no outs, I’m sure it’s higher in any given situation with no outs. The question isn’t between runner on first no outs and runner on first one out, it’s between runner on first one out and runner on second one out. I’d bet a ton that it’s much higher with the runner on second. The point is, if an out is going to be made, it’d be better that it was a productive out. You know 60-70 percent of the time the guy hitting behind him is going to make an out, it’s how you use that percentage that matters.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 29, 2009 1:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
According to the study done in Baseball Between the Numbers:
Runner on 1st, one out: 27.2% chance of scoring a run
Runner on 2nd, two outs: 22.9% chance of scoring a run
These were numbers from the 2005 season, but in general, your chance of scoring a run in this situation decreases, however slightly.
by mattdiaz4life on Jan 30, 2009 12:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I never said anything about runner on second two outs…
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 30, 2009 1:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hence my second reply. I assumed we were discussing a batter bunting over the runner on first, sacrificing an out for a base.
by mattdiaz4life on Jan 30, 2009 1:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, the chance of scoring a run increases when there is a runner on second, one out, as opposed to a runner on first, one out. But that’s assuming the bunter actually reaches base and doesn’t make an out.
by mattdiaz4life on Jan 30, 2009 12:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That reasoning is fallacious...
The question isn’t between runner on first no outs and runner on first one out, it’s between runner on first one out and runner on second one out. I’d bet a ton that it’s much higher with the runner on second. The point is, if an out is going to be made, it’d be better that it was a productive out
This makes very little sense to me. The question is indeed between man on first and no outs vs. man on second with one out. Let me just go through it so I’m clear.
Top of the first, no one on, no one out. Joe Blow bunts his way to first.
In this scenario, the average team scores .953 runs.
Top of the first, man on first, no one out. Joe Schmo sacrifices and Joe Blow moves to second. Man on second, one out.
In this scenario, the average team scores .725 runs. When the manager made the call for a sac bunt, he made a tradeoff – I would like to exchange my one on/no out for a one on second/no out. That is a bad trade in almost every situation.
Now, if we are sure that an out is to be made by Joe Schmo, you would indeed want it to be a productive one. However, there is no reason to assume he will make an out. If JS is league-average, he’ll make an out 66% of the time. In the other 34% of his plate appearances, he will either get a hit or walk. In the end, using a position player to sac bunt in all but the tightest situations will cost you runs. I would also put forth that the utility of bunting does increase as the quality of the hitter doing the bunting decreases. That is, Chipper Jones should never bunt anyone over, but Mario Mendoza is such a bad hitter that bunting with him can be justified more often.
by BraveBronco0121 on Jan 30, 2009 9:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who’s bunting their way to first? That was never part of this whole thing? I’m done with this cause obviously it’s gotten off the rails.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 30, 2009 11:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I used the bunting his way on to first thing as a stand-in for a single...
it’s pretty much just a style thing. I was simply setting up a situation where a guy gets on to lead off an inning.
Bottom line – man on first, no outs is a better run scoring situation than man on second, one out. That’s why I think the sac bunt, unless performed by a pitcher, is a bad idea in the vast majority of situations faced by a major league manager. So is the sac bunt completely useless? No, but it’s completely overused.
And I don’t particularly think this got off the rails. It’s certainly not relavent to the topic of the original post, but nothing got personal or flame-ridden. Disagreement isn’t really an issue as long as it doesn’t get hostile.
by BraveBronco0121 on Jan 30, 2009 11:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course no outs is a better situation. No outs is always a better situation. I’m asking what situation you want to have with one out. If you have one of your weaker hitters up, wouldn’t you rather take a bit of control and create a one out situation where you have a runner on second than gamble with your weaker hitter and maybe he gets a hit and you’ve got something better but maybe, and more likely, you’ve still got the guy on first but now there’s one out, which we’ve already said is a worse percentage. It’s about controlling how productive that next batter after the leadoff hitter in the given inning is.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 30, 2009 11:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It depends of a variety of factors...
how weak is the hitter? How are the hitters behind him? Is the pitcher up next? Is said hitter fast enough to stay out of the DP? Is the pitcher a ground ball guy or a fly ball one?
That being said, in the vast majority of cases where a weak hitter is at the plate, I still won’t be bunting. It’s an odd situation, though it does happen, when a weak hitter is at the dish when a good one is in the on-deck circle. Most of the times that happens the pitcher is batting and the lead off man is on deck. But no, I see no utility in letting a weak hitter bunt only to have another weak hitter coming to the plate. You will see the occasional GIDP, but for even a weak hitter, he’ll reach base ~31% of the time. I can’t see any but the slowest runners grounding into the double play more than 20% of the time that they come up with a man on first.
What it ultimitely comes down to with the sac bunt is that you’re surrendering an out for a single base worth of advancement. I certainly don’t have a ton of retrosheet-generated data in front of me to back this up with reams of stats, but in my years of watching the Braves, there are only a handful of cases that I can remember when I thought a non-pitcher sac bunt was called for. Every one of them came in a tied game in the 8th or 9th inning with a weak hitter coming to the plate. In that situation, I’m all for the bunt. But if it’s a close game in the first through seventh inning, no, I am not bunting with a position player. If I’m ahead, I’m never bunting with a position player. Those criteria alone would make my “bunt threshold” very, very high. Hell, disregarding my pitchers, I would probably bunt a dozen times a year, at the most. It’s just not good math to surrender outs unless there is a very pressing reason to do so.
by BraveBronco0121 on Jan 30, 2009 11:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The original argument was that Big Joe said bunting is never a good idea and I disagreed. It sounds like you’re with me.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 30, 2009 12:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well in that case, maybe so
common ground is always good.
Phillies suck!
by BraveBronco0121 on Jan 30, 2009 12:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Mets suck worse!
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 30, 2009 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think this has a place in baseball, just not as much as it is used in the major leagues. Moving a guy over when the pitcher is up in late innings in a close game.. by all means bunt him over. But you only have so many outs, its not a good idea to waste one just so u can get one base.
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 28, 2009 11:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Bunting should only be used with 0 outs (imo). I dont like 1 out bunts. but, let’s not underestimate the importance of “just one extra base”. moving a guy into scoring position is CRUCIAL in late game (or even early game) situations. the difference between a win and a loss many many times is the 90 ft between 1st and 2nd.
"Success is not final. Failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts." - Sir Winston Churchill -
by justincredubil02 on Jan 29, 2009 10:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Team Manager
Foghorn Leghorn has been replaced as manager. He is being replaced by Egbert.
by niekromurphy on Jan 28, 2009 7:17 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Im still not sure
exactly how this turned into shenanigans. The OP was about Schafer, but all I am seeing is Adam Dunn, Kevin Youkilis and Babe Ruth.
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 28, 2009 7:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
u’ll get used to conversation divulging into chaos… its ok
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 28, 2009 8:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Talking Chop – Tangents are our way of life!
"Debated ya right not one person agreed with me" by ATLsportsfrk on Dec 27, 2008 6:31 PM EST
by scstrato on Jan 28, 2009 8:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They turned the stupid post about the lazy bastard walking 20 blocks into a thread about fried chicken. At least this one stuck to baseball.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 28, 2009 9:14 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
do u have somehting against Fried Chicken?
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 28, 2009 9:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“Why do you guys sit around and eat fried chicken and watch porn?”
“Pornography is video of people having sex with each other. And fried chicken is delicious.”
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 28, 2009 9:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
These arent even rabit trails anymore
These are mine shafts into nowhere.
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 28, 2009 10:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
by buzzdeadwax on Jan 29, 2009 10:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
lol at this
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 1:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
why is this comment not green
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Jan 29, 2009 8:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I try to inject Adam Dunn into every possible conversation I can…you’ll come to learn this.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 1:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Over my head?
It’s good to have a guy with a high OBP hitting early in the order. It is also good to have a guy hitting with a high OBP in the middle of the order. If the guy has a high OBP and has power, generally speaking you hit him in the middle.
What if you only have one guy on your team with a very good OBP? This guy also hits for power but is slow. Where do you put him?
As for judging Bobby, I would suggest you judge his career body of work (or at least his prime) as skipper of the Blue Jays and Braves. Everyone gets old, and maybe he is no longer what he was. If he quits tomorrow, he is first ballot HOF.
by niekromurphy on Jan 28, 2009 8:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The argument started with a guy claiming Corey Patterson would be a better lead off hitter than Dunn. Corey Patterson sucks. He’s had a shitty OBP his entire career. The rest of dude’s argument was about how speed and contact are more important than OBP at the top of the order. I tend to think the latter is more important (as do a lot of other people).
I’m not claiming that it’s ideal for Dunn to hit lead-off. Clearly, with his power, it isn’t (he belongs in the middle of the order). But if it came down to Corey Patterson (or Juan Pierre) or Adam Dunn batting lead-off, I’ll take Dunn. Furthermore, this is a ridiculous hypothetical because we already have a guy (Blanco) that is quite effective at getting on base. This is the point. OBP is of utmost importance at the top of the order.
And I’m not a hater of old man Bobby. The guy has his merits like any other good manager out there. As a strategist (particularly as a manager of a bullpen), however, I think he’s been pretty bad over most of his career. His eventual HOF induction is pretty irrelevant to me.
by get swoll yunel on Jan 28, 2009 9:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You left out my argument that Dunn’s OBP would likely suffer at the top of the order with no men on base due to pitchers being less intimidated of giving up a 3 run homer and throwing less hittable balls. I say that since Dunn is a horrible contact hitter and a notorious strikeout victim that the increase in hittable balls would lead to more strikeouts, with of course a few more hits, but lower overall OBP. I agree that OBP is very important for lead off hitters, but in Dunn’s case I believe he would walk alot less.
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 28, 2009 9:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if they throw him less hittable balls his OBP would skyrocket… he doesnt chase bad pitches… he misses pitches within the strike zone… his contact rate is horrible because he swings so hard. NO matter where he is in th elineup his OBP will be the same most likely. If they throw more balls into the strike zone… he’ll probably hit more of them, meaning more base hits and more HR… if they throw him less hittable pitches… he’ll get 200 BB and his OBP will still be high… Your argument is so flawed its not even funny, thats probably why he left it out.
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 28, 2009 9:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I left it out because I don’t think that argument holds any water at all. I thnk it’s just ridiculous speculation on your part.
by get swoll yunel on Jan 28, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My jaw is on the floor.
IF THEY THROW HIM LESS HITTABLE BALLS HE WILL HAVE EVEN MORE WALKS. How can you not understand this? He’s not going to swing for the sake of swinging…there’s a reason he has 100 walks almost every single year.
I honestly think that most people on here have never watched Dunn play on a consistent basis.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 1:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you would have stuck to high school, you might be able to read what I said…I was saying that in the 4-5 spot they throw him less hittable balls, which you are correct he gets more walks, then if they threw him more hittable balls…which would be the result of batting him first…
Don’t get so excited bro, read out every statement carefully before you try and defend your crappy position…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 8:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You left out my argument that Dunn’s OBP would likely suffer at the top of the order with no men on base due to pitchers being less intimidated of giving up a 3 run homer and throwing less hittable balls.
I was saying that in the 4-5 spot they throw him less hittable balls, which you are correct he gets more walks, then if they threw him more hittable balls…which would be the result of batting him first…
Do you see this? Can you see what the problem is with these two statements? Make up your fucking mind already, you can’t play both sides of the fence and expect to get any kind of respect around here.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 9:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I see what you are saying, thats my bad, I messed up that sentence.
My first statement I was trying to say that, Pitchers are going to be less intimidated of giving up a 3 run homer so they won’t be putting the effort of throwing less hittable balls that they be if he had 2 guys on base…
My point is that pitchers pitch around him more often when guys are on base…
Sorry for the misunderstanding…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 10:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ridiculous speculation?
Sounds like an ESPN writer.
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 28, 2009 9:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Really?
I wouldn’t really know.
The only guy I ever read from ESPN is Bill Simmons.
by get swoll yunel on Jan 28, 2009 9:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i love me some bill simmons
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 29, 2009 12:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Inherently stupid?
I like how thngs are “inherently stupid”. Doesn’t matter if you have a dominant starter going. It’s inherently stupid. Cy Young’s on the mound and he has his best stuff? Bunting is inherently stupid. You have a staff full of Cy Young’s and an offense that struggles to score runs? Still inherently stupid. Bottom of the 9th, game tied runner on 1st? Bunting is inherently stupid.
Time to introduce a concept. It’s called situational baseball. It works like this: Sometimes you play the game differently based upon the talent that you have available. Dominant staff that doesn’t give up many runs? You sacrifice bunt more often. Your team ERA is 8.70? You probably will want to hold off on the sac bunts and there is not a lot of point to stealing bases is there?
by niekromurphy on Jan 28, 2009 10:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
its called the reply button
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 29, 2009 12:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Guys? Seriously?
Ok, this is my first post, so, here it goes:
Guys, WTF? I thought the whole point of a speedy lead off man was to create havok on the base paths - not just to get on base.
Pulling the first basemen to cover the bag creates a hole by which a ball can sneak through. A pitcher that keeps having to watch first base isn’t thinking 100% about the next pitch — and it can’t be a slow change or a curve because the dude on first will have a greater chance to swipe second. The second baseman or the shortstop or both has to cheat over a little and is thinking about covering the bag. ALL of these things come into play.
Dunn would absolutely not create havok on the basepaths hitting first. Sure, you can throw stats around all that you want, but stats are not baseball. They aren’t the GAME of baseball.
Are there any studies on how much better a 2 (or 3, or 4) hole hitter’s OBP becomes once a fast lead off man gets on base? Shouldn’t that become part of the argument than blindly saying “Dunn has a higher career OBP than Ricky Fuckin Henderson so I’d bat him first”?? Come on, guys. Get your heads out of the spreadsheets and watch the damn games!
Speedy baserunners like Reyes aren’t all just about OBP. The disruption they cause is a major factor.
So, in my book = Anderson or Blanco hitting first, Dunn 4th….
by Kelly's Big Johnson on Jan 29, 2009 12:13 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
What no one seems to be mentioning...
If you want speed + OBP out of a leadoff man…then why not Jordan Schafer himself? He has been compared favorably to Grady Sizemore, and he seems to do pretty well for himself in the 1 hole. I know it may not be a good idea right off the bat, but by the end of the year I think Schafer could be a great spark plug hitting at the top of the order.
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 29, 2009 12:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
lol… stop it… this fanpost is not about Schafer i dont understand why u keep trying to steer it in that direction.. this post is all about A DUnn being the best leadoff hitter since sliced bread (or somehting).
itll be interesting where Schafer is plugged into the lineup, Sizemore isnt a true leadoff hitter. his power is wasted, although it works because he is on base a fair amount. Schafer is kinda in the same boat. he could be a leadoff guy or a nbr 2, or 3, or 5th. its unclear where his skill set works best right now. AS evidenced by Schafer batting in virtually every spot in the order whil ein the minors.
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 29, 2009 12:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just a homer I guess, haha
Personally I think that Schafer is perfectly tailored for the 2 spot. Enough OBP and speed to keep the pressure on, and enough power to hit a 2B or HR to knock the leadoff guy in. If the Braves could have someone hit legit leadoff all year PLUS get Schafer hot in the 2 spot then I think Chipper and Mac could have really big years hitting with them on. Even more so if they get (hate to say it) Adum Dunn to hit between Chipper and Mac.
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 29, 2009 12:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that would make about 4 2hitters on our team. Schafer, Yunel, KF … shit i only thought of three and am too lazy to delete previosu statements
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 29, 2009 9:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
haha
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 1:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no one said Dunn was better than Rickey Henderson.. so get ur head our of ur spreadsheet. IT was said (by me) that the reason Henderson wsa conisdered the best leadoff hitter was because he was on base over 40% of the time. and that even w/o his speed he would still be a great leadoff hitter.
No one said DUnn should bat leadoff, it was said that if Corey Patterson and Adam Dunn were the only two candidates to bat leadoff, Dunn is the best choice. Patterson’s speed is negated by the fact that he is only on base 29% of the time. Sure Dunn wouldnt scare anyone of the base paths, but as was mentioned he is a good baserunner. so anykind of hit to the OF could lead him from going 1st to 3rd. You may want to actually look at the arguments properly before you spout off like you know what’s going on.
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 29, 2009 12:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, there are just as many posts on here arguing to put Chipper or McCann hitting lead off as well.
Even I had to pick between Dunn and Patterson, I’d still go with Patterson batting leadoff.
Here is the reason: Dunn hits home runs. I’d rather him hit home runs with runners actually on the base paths that “waste” one as a solo shot leading off the game.
I seriously don’t think you are considering the bump that a guy like Patterson would give everyone else following him in the lineup. Sure, say Pat gets on 29% of the time. What effect does it honestly have on the following hitters? I honestly don’t know, but I would speculate that it would go up by at least 10% – 15% for each of the following guys because of the gaps created in the infield defense. I doubt Dunn would have any effect on those following him in the lineup…. they probably wouldn’t even hold him on at first. That is the importance of speed in a lineup, and that is why they traditionally bat first — they make the guys behind them better hitters.
by Kelly's Big Johnson on Jan 29, 2009 12:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My first move would be to not allow Corey Patterson on my Major League roster.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 29, 2009 12:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I’d prefer that as well. Just playing with the cards I was dealt.
by Kelly's Big Johnson on Jan 29, 2009 12:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d kick over the table and find another game then.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 29, 2009 12:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If someone deals you either Patterson or Dunn to bat leadoff…there is definitely a fix going on. Some has a Bobby Abreu up their sleeves somewhere.
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 29, 2009 12:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not saying that I would want Corey Patterson on my roster, but the guy got over 300 ABs for 7 straight seasons…I know everyone thinks they are smarter then MLB GMs and Managers, but to play in a majority of 7 big league seasons is something that MANY MANY couldn’t possibly accomplish…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 8:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
7 seasons with the Cubs, Orioles, and Reds, yes, because these are teams well known for making intelligent roster decisions.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 29, 2009 9:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
When you get millons of dollars to make those descisions then I will give you some credit too…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 9:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently all I have to do is write for MLBTR and agree with you for you to give me credit…
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 29, 2009 9:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry bro, when some guys have their own MAJOR MAJOR website about baseball then I’m going to have some faith in them. Especially, if they agree with me.
Just like I would most likely take your word about an independent film over someone elses on a IDM board…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 9:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Out of curiosity
You do realize that Tim Dierkes (owner MLBTR) was nothing more than a fantasy baseball geek when he first started MLBTR. That makes him EXACTLY like “us” guys on here. He has no formal “baseball” training and almost ALL of his analysis is geared towards FANTASY, which means it has no relevance towards actual baseball.
Don’t get me wrong, his websites are great, but to give him credit for having MORE baseball knowledge because he has a website that’s dedicated to copying internet articles is pretty silly, don’t you think?
"Debated ya right not one person agreed with me" by ATLsportsfrk on Dec 27, 2008 6:31 PM EST
by scstrato on Jan 29, 2009 11:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Shit…I remember being on that site the day Tim said he had quit his job to do MLBTR full time. I was quite jealous!
But yeah, none of what you said matters because he sent Bwell an email that proved his point, therefore my argument is wrong. This doesn’t even touch on the fact that the email sent to MLBTR was bias in the first place, but I guess that isn’t important.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly…he is the KING of US…
If you have ever watched one of his Tuesday chats, then you would know he has a very thorough knowledge of the state of MLB. His job is to analyze stats/data/trends for his fantasy rotoauthority.com site, in addtion to running MTR, which is alot more than just copy/paste. He’s quickly answered a complicated question I’ve had about minor league contracts, so I have alot of faith in him…I’m sure he knows alot more than any of us posters…
and Tim himself didn’t answer the above question, Ben Nicholson-Smith answered it…
...catsports...
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
How about sending him the question I posted below then?
Let’s step outside of the box for a moment. Let’s say we have 8 Manny Ramirez’s on our team and we plan on batting them in the 2 thru 8 spots in our lineup. Given this theory who would you rather have hitting leadoff in front of them; Corey Patterson or Adam Dunn?
"Debated ya right not one person agreed with me" by ATLsportsfrk on Dec 27, 2008 6:31 PM EST
by scstrato on Jan 29, 2009 12:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Cause thats an unrealistic question…
In that case, with 8 identical players, besides the 1st apperance, batting order would be irrelevant.
Dunn would actually make sense in that case…thats a big ass $alary though…
...catsports...
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 12:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The question may be unrealistic, but it goes along with what I was saying in the first place. That’s the exact point I was trying to make and since Scstrato was able to pick up on it right away it proves to me that I’m not doing a terrible job of conveying it.
Dunn would be a better option at leadoff than Patterson because he makes less outs per PA. It’s an incredible simply concept. You’re the one that started adding in the additional factors.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think its too simple, and I tried to look too deep in it…I mean thats only one variable, I don’t think its fair to make the subjective assumption based on one argument.
...catsports...
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Patterson makes more outs per PA than Dunn. How can you argue otherwise?
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t argue against the fact…however thats just one reason you use for Dunn leading off and Paterson not. I was just bringing up other reasons…
...catsports...
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 12:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and I brought up this:
If you were meaning that if you could choose EITHER Patterson OR Dunn in only the lead off spot, and not have the other player at all, then I would totally go with Dunn.
,early this morning…thats very similar to scstrato’s “question”
...catsports...
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 12:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
thats the funniest thing ive read in over a week… u sir are on a roll.. go to the nearest strip club and see if u cant pick up a stripper
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 29, 2009 9:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I swear, two days ago I had a ten minute conversation about why you never date strippers.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 29, 2009 11:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
3 good reasons not to
Ess
Tee
Dee
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 29, 2009 11:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Franky, with all the other issues that come with strippers as people, a burning crotch is the least of the problem.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 29, 2009 11:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
-1
I’m about 100% positive no stripper would give you the time of day. No offense, but you are talking out of your ass. Strippers are not prostitutes. Coincidentally, how does touching a fully clothed person allow for the spread of STD’s?
"…aren’t worthy enough to hold his (Pujols) ass cheeks apart while Playboy models wipe him with thousand dollar bills after he craps out the cure to whatever previously-incurable disease." by royhobbs 1/7/09
by buzzdeadwax on Jan 30, 2009 11:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I get the time of day from strippers
all the time. And haven’t you heard of the champagne room, Mr. stripper expert? Throw a few twenties down next time, they might show you!
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 30, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like somebody dated a stripper…Maybe fell in love a little with a stripper….
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 30, 2009 12:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It could
be his daughter : |
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 30, 2009 12:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oooh. Too far.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 30, 2009 12:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is that you, T-Pain?
"Break's over"
by VegasAces on Jan 30, 2009 12:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was up in AC last year for my friend’s bachelor party and I honestly did fall in love with this stripper from like the Eastern Bloc.
My goodness…
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 30, 2009 1:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i said nothin of dating… but ur absolutely u dont date a stripper u also never sleep with a terydactyl… their wingspans are 7 feet wide they’ll completely mess up ur apartment
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 29, 2009 11:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever dude, my wingspan is like 6’6", I wreck this place all the time.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 30, 2009 1:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
/clap
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 30, 2009 9:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
haha…
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 30, 2009 9:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank You!!! I didn’t think the only thing on here that would agree with me would be a penis, but like BigJoe claims, “Every now and then you have to bend over and accept something hard”.
Anyways, welcome to TC…you might be the only sane person on here…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 8:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not too shabby
For being my first Fanpost/Fanshot/anthing post on this site eh? I feel the pressure to get my next post front paged too! Ok, as long as I dont post about Francoeur, Andruw, Glavine, or Jake Peavy then I think I can do it! Oh the anxiety I am feeling right now.
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 29, 2009 12:32 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS.
I had no idea my comment would turn into this clusterfuck…
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 1:05 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
You take the blue pill...
and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe
You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.
Remember — all I am offering is the truth, nothing more.
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 29, 2009 1:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The blue pill....
is viagra
best defensive shortstop in baseball hahahahahahahahahah (omar visquel)
by mvandonsel on Jan 29, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
what is the matrix? Alex
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 29, 2009 9:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I've never seen so much chaos
For all the people that prefer good contact and speed guys at the top of the lineup instead of OBP guys:
You should check out the book “Baseball Between the Numbers” from Baseball Prospectus. Some of the things they prove in that book (prove with data from every single baseball game played this century) include:
1. You should put your best hitters at the very top of the order, especially the ones who don’t make outs (high OBP). The example they use is that Bonds should have batted leadoff for the Giants and they would have won several more games each year.
2. Speedy baserunners have a virtually negligent impact on the hitters (they don’t improve the odds of a batter getting a hit).
3. Sacrifice bunting is almost always a bad idea except in very select situations (no outs, tie game in the bottom of the ninth is the only one i remember off the top of my head).
There’s plenty of other stuff the prove as well. They have all the data right there, and if you are not a stat person at all you don’t need to read it. They are smart guys and if they tell me something is true based on statistical evidence, I would have to believe them.
http://www.whensidslid.com
by garriscp on Jan 29, 2009 3:01 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
My god...
reason prevails!
I have my gripes with BPro, but that book should be required reading for every baseball fan, whether they agree or not.
by BraveBronco0121 on Jan 29, 2009 9:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you. The book that opened my eyes.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 9:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Total BS
I have to call total BS on that one. Barry Bonds hitting lead off = definite walk. He would walk every damn time. He would never have the chance to be clutch, hit a homer, drive people in.
He would literally finish the year with this line: .000 avg, 0 RBIs, 600 BBs.
The only reason people ever pitched to him was because he actually had runners ON FREAKING BASE. bases empty = walk.
What are the odds (especially given the Giants pitiful lineup) that the table would be set for him after the 7th, 8th, and 9th hitters came up? ZERO!!!!
Damn guys. I don’t care what the statistics say. That is just stupid. Just take the bat right out of the hands of arguably the best hitter of our generation.
by Kelly's Big Johnson on Jan 29, 2009 9:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Barry Bonds hitting lead off = definite walk.
Exactly! That’s a good thing. NOT GETTING OUT IS A GOOD THING.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 9:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not when the odds of a double play with him running are very high. (oh, snap, that is 2 outs!)
Not when the guys behind him can’t drive him in.
Not when the MVP of your team, your RBI leader, your home run leader, your best player can’t ever drive in a run.
Most of the time: Walk for Barry Bonds = minor loss for Giants, minor win for opposing team. Under your argument, MLB managers were wrong for intentionally walking him the most times in history.
Sorry, but I agree with the MLB managers making millions for actually managing.
by Kelly's Big Johnson on Jan 29, 2009 9:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, but I agree with the MLB managers making millions for actually managing.
This kind of statement means nothing to me when I’ve seen Dusty Baker tell Adam Dunn to lay down a sac bunt. Just because they are managers does not mean that everything they do is correct.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 9:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So you think you are better than Dusty Baker? I want to know if all these guys are so terrible, how do they still get jobs. Especially when we have millions of smarter guys posting on message boards on the internets….
Managers make mistakes, sure, but I’m sure as sh*t that they know alot more about the situation than we do…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 9:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They still get jobs because baseball likes to keep the status quo. They’re afraid to hire someone outside the box, so they keep hiring the same old people.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I want to know if all these guys are so terrible, how do they still get jobs.
I actually wonder this a lot.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 29, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think the shit i took earlier is better than Dusty Baker… Baker can’t manage a bullpen, he destroys young arms. he has no concept of leverage. He is terrible at utilizing his players strengths and minimizing their weakness. the only thing he has going for him is he used to play, he is a good interview and the players like him…
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 29, 2009 9:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
players veterans like him…
/fixed
by mattdiaz4life on Jan 30, 2009 12:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
good pt young guy dont like him because he either… has them throw 2025 innings (that time it was intentional) or doesnt let them play at all
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 30, 2009 1:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Try telling fans of Kerry Wood and Mark Prior that Dusty Baker is a good manager.
Try telling Aaron Harang that Dusty Baker is a good manager. Baseball Prospectus recently had a good article up about Baker’s usage of Harang for four innings in an 18-inning affair on May 25, but you likely have to be a subscriber to view it. Summary: Harang should not have been used, as there were better options available, and he suffered a sharp decline in his pitching ability immediately afterwards and wound up hitting the DL soon thereafter.
by mattdiaz4life on Jan 30, 2009 1:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Big dagger to my fantasy team…
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 30, 2009 9:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, just ignore the argument and change the discussion to sac bunts and Dusty Baker.
I guess you are so much smarter than those stupid, old managers that you would pitch to Barry Bonds every single time. Sure, let him and his .812 slugging percentage go haywire on your ass and see how many games you win.
by Kelly's Big Johnson on Jan 29, 2009 9:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A manager’s choices are kind of like at-bats. Three right ones out of ten ain’t bad.
But that still implies that they made seven wrong ones. And considering that choices are variable and some games they get more than others, unlike a player and his at-bats, and the results of a manager’s choice potentially has more positive or negative impact.
That’s why I see why people can criticize managers more than players. Dusty Baker might not have been the best example, but we’ve all seen managers, like Bobby Cox do some things that have even the most loyal Cox fans scratching their head. And older guys tend to stick with older mentalities and role-loyalty, and seem to be the last ones in line to try new things or accept new strategies. (Like bringing in a closer in the 7th to snuff out a rally before a lead is blown)
I’m not going to say that any “internet smart guy” would make a better manager, because handling personalities, public exposure, and keeping composure are also included in the job description, aside from the in-game strategizing, but we’ve all got to be able to admit that not all managers are currently worthy of their jobs right now.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Jan 29, 2009 10:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You put that very well…Agree 100%
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 10:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m going to ignore the argument because we obviously aren’t going to agree anyways. If you honestly think that the managers are right simply because they are managers…then I have nothing more to say to you.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 10:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, WTF? Pitchers pitched to Bonds BECAUSE he had runners ON FREAKING BASE? This is CRAZY TALK. You pitch around Bonds when there are runners on, because if he takes you deep, more runs score.
by mattdiaz4life on Jan 30, 2009 12:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Off-topic but....
…I always hated whenever they’d walk Barroid with the bases loaded. It happened more than one time I’m sure and you are never justified in that situation unless the guy you’re walking has an OBP over .500. Even though Bonds was a phenomenal hitter, you stil had the advantage as the pitcher.
by bravesfan91 on Jan 30, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but Bonds did have an OBP near 500…from 2001-2004 his lowest OBP was 515… so u admit that it was a good idea to walk him?
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 30, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
also he is the only player to ever have 16 straight seasons of a 1.000+ OPS…wouldnt been 18 but in 2006 he went .999
i think we can agree he was good
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 30, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe not the best decision, but if you consider that a single could drive in two runs, then at least some of the time it actually saved runs. I still hate the general idea of it though.
by bravesfan91 on Jan 30, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hardball Times did a piece on this a couple years ago. If I remember correctly, they found that there were some times when it’s an acceptable practice to walk in a run when facing a hitter as good as Bonds…but the majority of the time, you should just pitch to him, even if you’re nibbling.
by mattdiaz4life on Jan 30, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A respected writer that shares my view
I took the time to email the guys at MLBTR, knowing that they are great with quick responses.
I sent the following:Hello. I spent a few hours earlier discussing an issue about Adam Dunn with some other people. Corey Patterson batting lead off over Dunn with the Reds was the initial discussion. Then the main issue turned into that Adam Dunn would make a good lead off hitter. I was on the “NO” side, with my arguments including that; the leadoff hitter should be a good contact hitter, power hitters are more beneficial hitting in the middle of the lineup, and that his BB numbers would suffer from empty bases. Their arguments included; the leadoff hitter doesn’t need good contact hitting skills as long as they get on base and that his walks would not suffer because he has a good knowledge of the strike zone. They used Kevin Youkilis as an example of someone batting lead off that hits for power and has a high OBP. I claimed that Youk had a much better year hitting for contact last season. Can you give us your fine baseball knowledge and provide some insight to this situation? Thanks, -Brandon
His Reply:
You know, the idea of Dunn as a leadoff hitter just doesn’t seem likely. Ever. In any situation. Why put a 40+ home run guy at the plate with nobody to hit in? Plus, if he does walk to first, the odds are much, much higher of him getting caught up in double play than stealing second base. And you’re right: Youk is a contact guy, while Dunn is pretty much going to go yard, strike out or walk.
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 8:58 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Here is the big issue here...
1. I don’t think anyone claimed that Dunn was an ideal leadoff hitter, simply that he’s better than the horrendous Corey Patterson. That is probably as close to an objective fact as one can state – Patterson’s career OBP is .291. Put that one in context – league average is around .340. Patterson is, for all intents and purposes, an out-making machine that shouldn’t be on a major league roster. Whether he hits leadoff, ninth, or anywhere in between, Patterson is killing your offensive output. Replace his 2008 with a league average player and the Reds score almost thirty more runs as a team. The bottom line – nobody can justify having Patterson hitting leadoff in any situation.
2. Your constant emphasis on batting average is, well, not particularly justified by the facts. Now, I tend to think that a lot of the early proponents of advanced statistical analysis went a bit too far – a strikeout isn’t just another out, it’s an out that nothing positive can hope to come from. Nobody moves over, etc. That being said, most stat-loving folks get that now, and the most modern measure of total offense, wOBA, takes this into account. So, all things being equal, I would prefer to have a guy who, say, hits .300/.390/.490 rather than .240/.390/.490. That being said, a low batting average doesn’t make one a bad hitter, it just makes them bad at one part of hitting. Hitting consists not only of making consistent contact, but also of hitting for power and working the count as a way of not only drawing walks, but also putting one’s self into a favorable pitch count. Dunn certainly doesn’t hit for contact well, but he does the other two things very well. Overall, he’s a very good hitter. Not a great one, but I don’t know if anyone made the argument that he was Pujols. There is good reason why Batting Average is almost never used around here as a measure of a hitter’s total value – it simply doesn’t give us all the information we need to know.
So, really, let’s all just smoke the peace pipe here. No need to take everything that was said personally.
by BraveBronco0121 on Jan 29, 2009 9:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the main issue turned into that Adam Dunn would make a good lead off hitter.
This was never my argument. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
I claimed that Youk had a much better year hitting for contact last season.
For the second time now, Youk hit leadoff for them the majority of the 2006 season…three years ago.
You know, the idea of Dunn as a leadoff hitter just doesn’t seem likely. Ever. In any situation.
Well, if they would honestly rather have Patterson as a leadoff hitter than Dunn then they are just as misguided as you are. I thought they were smarter than that.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 9:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn’t putting words in your mouth. I wasn’t talking just about you. Other people got involved, and thats what it turned into.
I was keeping it accurate to what I was saying on this board. Youk definitely wasn’t a power guy in 2006, contact hitter. Youk hits a ton of singles…102 in 2006…I KNOW I KNOW, why are you bringing up singles…I brought them up for proof that hits alot of balls into play, not just homeruns. A single is more valuable at the top of the lineup then in the middle…
Hes factoring in the huge benefit of having Dunn in the middle, it outweighs the sacrifice of having someone with a low OBP at the top.
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 9:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hes factoring in the huge benefit of having Dunn in the middle, it outweighs the sacrifice of having someone with a low OBP at the top.
I never once disagreed with this. Not once. Go back and read what I said and you’ll see that.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 10:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh….then that means the matter is SETTLED!!!, it was all just a big mistake…
If you were meaning that if you could choose EITHER Patterson OR Dunn in only the lead off spot, and not have the other player at all, then I would totally go with Dunn.
I was arguing under the assumption that you had both players and had to work them into the lineup together.
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 10:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
/sigh
My original point was that the Reds were stupid because they bat Patterson higher in the order, thus given him more opportunities to make an out (which he does quite frequently). The team suffers because guys like Dunn and Votto are pushed further down the order because the Reds feel like, for some reason, Patterson and Keppinger need the most at-bats that game.
Of course the argument got turned on it’s head in the process, but that was my original point.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 10:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah...
and I disagreed with that…and I still do…
So would you want your top four to be Dunn, Votto, Patterson, Keppinger???
^that just seems like a terrible idea…Dunn and Votto were obviously the best chance at bringing someone home, so they should be hitting in the middle…of course, thats my own opinion…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 10:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I’m not putting my thoughts into words correctly, because you’re still not getting what I’m trying to say.
I’m not disagreeing that guys like Dunn and Votto belong in the middle of the lineup, in a perfect world. But to push them further and further down the lineup for the likes of Patterson and Keppinger, simply because they are perceived to be top of the order hitters, is counterproductive. I guess if I had to fill out a lineup card for the Reds it’d go something like this:
Brandon Phillips
Jay Bruce
Joey Votto
Adam Dunn
Ken Griffey Jr.
Jeff Keppinger
Paul Bako
Corey Patterson
It’s certainly not pretty, as Phillips isn’t the ideal leadoff hitter either…but I personally think it’s better than alot of the lineup cards Baker filled out last season.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 10:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is Keppinger playing 3rd and SS in that lineup, with Bruce standing next to Dunn in left so he can make all the fancy defense plays?
I’m just joking, trying to piss you off even more than I’ve been doing the past 24 hours…
I get that you don’t feel players like Dunn should be pushed down farther in the lineup for speedsters, leadoff guys…but was that ever the case??
Correct me if this is wrong:
Patterson
Keppinger
Phillips
Dunn
Griffey Jr.
Votto
Encarnacion
Bako
At the time (beginning months of 2008 season), Votto was still unproven (having less than 100 at bats the season before) so while he probably was deserving of hitting number 3, Baker probably wanted to go with experience in that case…Dunn doesn’t get affected…they were waiting to call up Bruce for the stupid arbitration rules..
I get your point that Patterson and Keppinger are horrible and probably shouldn’t be at the top of any lineup (or in any lineup), however, Dunn shouldn’t be up there either…just because a player has a high OBP doesn’t mean he should be leading off…Dunn’s value comes from the power he generates, and that power is way more valuable, in any lineup, right in the middle…
...catsports...
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 11:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It would be pretty sweet if Dunn could carry Bruce around in a little backpack out in the field. But yeah, not sure why I put Griffey I meant to put the very un-clutch Encarnacion.
You’re still missing my point and this is the last time I’m going to try and explain it to you. I’m not arguing about where Dunn’s value comes from. I know Dunn. I like Dunn. I’m probably the biggest Dunn supporter on this board…you don’t need to explain to me why he is good.
The idea that giving a player who does an awful job of getting on base more at bats than players who are very good at getting on base is my point. Outs are the most valuable commodity in a baseball game, and letting Patterson make 5 outs in a game just doesn’t make any sense. Sure, Dunn looks comfy in the #4 or #5 spot in the order, but when the 9th inning rolls around and his team needs someone to drive in runs it doesn’t help that Patterson and Keppinger were…more times than not…automatic outs.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 12:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I gotcha…
1.)Patterson and Keppinger are horrible, so why give them more PAs at the top of the lineup
2.)Dunn gets on base the most, so why not give him more PAs
IDK, I guess it depends on if you have 8 Mannys out there…
but in the Reds situation, they would suck no matter where he hits, so why not?
...catsports...
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but in the Reds situation, they would suck no matter where he hits, so why not?
That’s kind of my point though. If you give your best hitters the most opportunities at the plate you will win more games. I’m sure there were numerous times that Dunn had to walk back to the dugout from the on deck circle because Brandon Phillips was inexplicable hitting cleanup and got out to end an inning. If Dunn was hitting cleanup maybe he gets out too, but the stats will tell you that he has a better chance than Phillips to hit a run scoring XBH or at the very least get a walk.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We all should take notes from Bronco, his arguments are well thought out, organized, and makes justifiable points.
1. We were arguing that Dunn bat lead off instead of Patterson on that team. Even with Patterson being horrible, I would rather have him leading off and have Dunn in the middle, and not vice versa. Dunn’s power brings much more value to the team as a whole in the middle of the lineup. You put Dunn at the top and what? have Patterson batting clean up? Along with that, I just believe Dunn wouldn’t get on base as much batting first.
2. That is a main point of mine. He is not a contact hitter, and his consistently low BA is a simple way to show that. That is the part of hitting that I think is crucial for a lead off hitter. And Dunn is a very poor contact hitter. Being able to slap a single over the 2nd baseman’s head seems better to me at the top. In my opinion, Dunns total offense is more valuable to the middle of the lineup than the beggining.
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 9:37 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Question
Let’s step outside of the box for a moment. Let’s say we have 8 Manny Ramirez’s on our team and we plan on batting them in the 2 thru 8 spots in our lineup. Given this theory who would you rather have hitting leadoff in front of them; Corey Patterson or Adam Dunn?
"Debated ya right not one person agreed with me" by ATLsportsfrk on Dec 27, 2008 6:31 PM EST
by scstrato on Jan 29, 2009 12:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think a better question would be:
1) Lets say we have 8 replacement level players and Adam Dunn. Where would you put Dunn? My instincts on this say leadoff since you’ll get more ABs from him over the year.
2) Lets say we have 8 statistically league average hitters and Adam Dunn…now where would you bat him? Here my instincts say cleanup, but I don’t think its as clear cut as the previous example. I’d be interested in hearing other viewpoints on this.
by soup du jour on Jan 29, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree, those are far more interesting conversation topics over the current question but I was just trying to help the Beard make his point. The context of his question was missed.
As for your points, i’m afraid i’m going to have to dodge the question. Can’t say I have the patience to do that much research (nor the intelligence to get it right). I would definitely be interested in reading about it though!
"Debated ya right not one person agreed with me" by ATLsportsfrk on Dec 27, 2008 6:31 PM EST
by scstrato on Jan 29, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
1. Why? If you have all replacement level players BEHIND Dunn, then whos gonna get him home when the other team walks him. One of them will get an occasional hit, however, it will take more than one hit to get Dunn home from 1st. Of course Dunn would get an occasional homerun, but even if he gets one a game, then thats most likely 1 run (since we are just talking about leading off) However if you have 3 replacement guys in front of Dunn, then one of them might get a hit, or get on base some how, and then that homerun that Dunn hits turns into 2-3 runs. I’m also concerned about the intimidation it brings upon the pitcher when Dunn comes up and there are baserunners. Without base runners, he will probable get more pitches that he could hit. More hittable pitches leads to him not having to work the count, which I think would hurt his BB totals. With him being a strike out victim quite often (160+ last year) and a poor contact hitter, the increase in hittable balls could also bring an incrrease in K’s. Of course, he would probably have a few more homeruns as well, but with no one on base, he won’t be driving in anyone either.
And…we are only talking about 50-80 extra ABs anyways. With 80 more at bats, Dunn might get on base around 30 more times…but with him batting a few spots down in the order, he will have ALOT more guys on base that he can help lead home…
2. Definitely yes, simply put, you want guys on base when players like Dunn come up to bat.
...catsports...
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
1. Why? If you have all replacement level players BEHIND Dunn, then whos gonna get him home when the other team walks him.
I havn’t even read the rest of your comment, but this once again shows your misunderstanding of the concept.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
First off, how do you do the quote boxes???
Second off, the guy said to bat Dunn lead off so he can get more PAs, I talked about that later in the paragraph…what else is there to get?
...catsports...
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 2:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
In the reply box...
there is a little quotation mark thingy…
click on it and put the quote between the >and the<
best defensive shortstop in baseball hahahahahahahahahah (omar visquel)
by mvandonsel on Jan 29, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Type something into the field, highlight the text, click the little " symbol before the link symbol. Sometimes it boxes multiple times, but I’m not sure if that’s just my computer.
Dunn does you no good in the cleanup spot with 3 replacement level players in front of him because chances are they’re all going to get out and Dunn will end up leading off the 2nd inning with no one on base anways. On top of that, for the rest of the game you’ve got three players who are much worse than Dunn that have to come up before he gets another chance to drive anyone in.
Also, your theory about an increase in strikeouts seems like nothign more than something you’ve conjured up in your head. Do you have any stats to back it up? You seem to think that Dunn will chase un-hittable pitches just for the hell of it. If you’ve ever watched him hit on a regular basis you’d know that isn’t his game plan.
Have you ever actually watched Dunn hit more that just a handful of times?
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks!
Have you ever actually watched Dunn hit more that just a handful of times?
No, I haven’t. Its nothing but a theory. (This is helping work go by so much faster) However, I wasn’t saying he will swing at unhittable pitches. I’m saying they will throw more hittable balls to him, and he will swing and miss more often, thinking that he will be able to hit them (based this just on the large number of strike outs hes had in the past…If he works the count, avoiding the unhittable balls…yet he still strikes out 160 times last year…)
As far as the rest…we each think a different way, you’re not gonna change my mind, and I’m not gonna change your mind…I say we drop this…
If I ever see Dunn leading off a game, then I apologize in advance and you can know that somewhere I will be admitting that you were right…
...catsports...
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, must have missed this post yesterday.
If I ever see Dunn leading off a game, then I apologize in advance and you can know that somewhere I will be admitting that you were right…
Haha, nice. Yeah, it was one hell of a discussion I must say. I can’t say I understand your logic, but whatever. Alot of people come to this blog and when they realize that people on it are going to disagree with what they think they bolt…so I respect that you didn’t do that.
As far as watching Dunn hit…I recommend you try to do it more often if you can..you might be surprised at what you see. Not sure if you buy the Extra Innings package, but I did last season and it’s really nice to get a chance to watch players that I normally only read about.
Fangraphs has a feature that lists a specific player’s Plate Discipline. I’m not 100% on what each of the categories means, so maybe someone else can help us out with an explanation…it should shed some light on your theory.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 30, 2009 1:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We are dominating this thread! I don’t think Talking Chop has had this many comments in one thread before…
HaHa, I bet Jordan Schafer sees this and wonders how he is so popular. Then he has to actually read that its about Dunn, Patterson, Anderson, and Bonds instead of him…poor guy…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 10:09 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
better all-time wrestler
hulk hogan or ric flair? peace? who needs peace. give me a gun and chaos and slap me american.
by ryan c on Jan 29, 2009 10:11 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I would rather have Ric Flair at lead off then Adam Dunn…
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 10:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, he can use his mastery of selling fake hits, and pretend that he gets hit by every pitch. His OBP would be 1.000, and would lead the league in HBPs.
Imagine the lols at Flair flopping after pretending to get hit by an intentional ball, the crowd erupting, the pitcher going ballistic, and the home plate ump ringing the bell awarding Flair first base.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Jan 29, 2009 10:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You left out where Flair gets to first, looks at the pitcher, and goes “WOOOOOOOOO!”
by 10-4 on Jan 29, 2009 12:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Rock by far.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 29, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So,, what the fuck have I started by one little innocent comment?
Anyone wanna get a fantasy league going on the 360 version of MLB Front Office Manager?
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 29, 2009 12:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Did you pick it up? I’ve been really tempted…
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just got it at Best Buy. Seems ridiculously detailed…I have it on the main screen, haven’t done much of anything aside from picking my team and creating myself. More details to follow.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 29, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if it has all the names of every minor leaguer…that would be an automatic sell…
I got mine at Gamestop…they won’t accept PC game returns…so I’m stuck with a brand new MLB FOM that I can’t play…
...catsports...
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The minor league lineups have generic names….for the mostpart. JASON PERRY is in the game. AND CHRIS RESOP!!!!!!!!!!!!! The rest appear to be really jitzy…a lot of the guys are really old, doesn’t appear like you can edit them either. So gay.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 29, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s a pain in the ass. At least in 2k8 they had most of the top-100 prospects and they were easy to identify and you could edit their names.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 1:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This game is fucking wacky, and I implore you to pick any team but the Braves. Our payroll is like $64.8 million, Chipper & Smoltz are both free agents…Smoltz got like 1/13.4 from the Reds, and Chipper just snagged a phat 6/177 from the Giants. Its insane.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 29, 2009 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
REALLY???
29.5 million a year. I hope Chipper doesn’t play! He might get some ideas!
best defensive shortstop in baseball hahahahahahahahahah (omar visquel)
by mvandonsel on Jan 29, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yikes…
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yuck. This seems like it’ll go into the ‘avoid’ category.
by soup du jour on Jan 29, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I just accidentally (and I repeat, it was an accident) released Francoeur because I apparently botched the arb process. Naturally, he’s still a FA so I just have to clear some payroll (stupid me for trading Diaz for a Guardado & Everett) so I have enough capital to bring him in…and hey, Prince Fielder was a FA, so KOTCHMAN IS BENCH BOUND! HOORAY!
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 29, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How is getting from one menu to another? I heard it was a real disaster how they set up the interface.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The text is RIDICULOUSLY small on the menu screen…2 fields actually open up and show about 10 more categories each on the screen, which is a wreck. Its a nightmare to figure out what to do and how to do it…took me like 5 minutes to figure out how to release a player, only to be told I’d have to eat his salary. Fantastic.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 29, 2009 5:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Haha…I may just wait until 2K9 comes out.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 5:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“The Twins have traded Francisco Liriano to the Athletics for Frank Thomas, Bobby Crosby & Alan Embree”
“The Angels have traded Kelvim Escobar to the Nationals for Nick Johnson, Garrett Mock & Wily Mo Pena”
“The Reds have traded Joey Votto to the Blue Jays for Brad Wilkerson & John Parrish”
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 29, 2009 5:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s one of my biggest disappointments when it comes to baseball video games…the trades the computer makes and proposes are always insane.
I was doing a franchise with my roommate last year and the computer offered him Josh Beckett for someone like Heath Bell. WTF?
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 5:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OH YEAH, I forgot to say.
I got Mat Gamel in the Rule V and have made him the heir apparent to Larry. And Francoeur STILL won’t re-sign, despite offering him up more years and more money than he wants. Crazy.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 29, 2009 6:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The only baseball game I’ve ever played is EA Sports’ MVP 2005, the last one of the series. People do a great job of keeping up with roster updates and such, and it’s fairly balanced. I’ve never wanted to play another baseball game (except maybe one that had a touch better graphics).
by mattdiaz4life on Jan 30, 2009 1:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That game was awesome.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 30, 2009 9:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Did you capitalize ridiculously because so many people do not know how to spell it?
best defensive shortstop in baseball hahahahahahahahahah (omar visquel)
by mvandonsel on Jan 29, 2009 7:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course.
And hey, this will get everyone laughing. Just simmed through a game where I beat the Reds 9-5 in 13…go to the 13th where we put up a 4 spot to see how…
Grand Slam Manny Acosta.
Seriously.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 29, 2009 7:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I first read that as Manny Acosta giving up the GS…which didn’t surprise me at all.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 8:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously, this game is wack…I’m like 5-11 because like 4 pitchers are hurt. Reyes, Morton AND James are in the rotation right now…yeah.
And I traded Parr/Prado for Travis Snider to fill the Francoeur hole. Good move, Joe.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 29, 2009 8:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Acosta = Pure Power
best defensive shortstop in baseball hahahahahahahahahah (omar visquel)
by mvandonsel on Jan 29, 2009 9:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I haven’t laughed as hard as when I saw that in quite some time…dear god. I had to save and shut the game off. Murderous laughter.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 29, 2009 10:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I got it for PC, but turns out I don’t have the right graphics card…I can play Spore but no Manager…
Is it any good, I have a 360, I just thought the PC version would be more convienent…
...catsports...
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
WOW
The lack of Braves action has turned us all loopy. From fried chick and porn to Corey Patterson to Dunn batting leadoff to Ric Flair batting leadoff and Dunn in the 2 hole.
This is astounding
by bravesguy311 on Jan 29, 2009 1:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
what the hell are you talking about??
...catsports...
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OH MY GOD!
WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY JORDAN SCHAFER POST?!?!
haha, I guess I have learned a valuable lesson about this place. At least I can forever say my post holds the comments record on TC?
THIS IS MADNESS!
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 29, 2009 2:46 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
what the hell are you talking about???
...catsports...
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think this thread is over. Too bad I missed most of it, but things have been very busy at work lately.
The whole Adam Dunn debate is getting old. I don’t care if we sign the guy or not. I’d prefer not to have him, but that’s just me.
Does anyone have any fried chicken left? I’m starving.
by Sparhawk on Jan 29, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I dont
have the slightest clue
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 29, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
good answer, cause I don’t know either…
...catsports...
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you count open threads for games, this is no where near a posts records. Off-season threads only, you may have something.
I know you’re new, so if you don’t know what I mean by a game thread, stick around. They’re quite interesting, and very entertaining.
"Break's over"
by VegasAces on Jan 29, 2009 3:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You could take all the message board posts Ive ever made on any message boards and it wouldn’t add up to the number of posts I’ve made today…
...catsports...
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well I congratulate you then
For doing your part to set this post apart.
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 29, 2009 3:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Didn’t we get 500 once last season?
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kelly Johnson dropping the pop fly that would’ve beaten the Phillies alone got 500. Granted, they were almost all f-bombs, but 500 comments is 500 comments.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Jan 29, 2009 3:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
would anyone else agree
that THAT one play cost us our season? I know that we had pitching issues, but had he not dropped that pop-up, who knows how the rest of the series against Philly would have gone, who knows if KJ would have started what proved to be a late season surge earlier, and who knows what sort of deal we could have made at the trading deadline (jake peavy, anyone?)?
"Success is not final. Failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts." - Sir Winston Churchill -
by justincredubil02 on Jan 29, 2009 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not having Neftali Feliz at AA cost us our season…
...catsports...
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 3:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but
that would mean no Tex…I know he had a slow start last season, but he would have been key in a division run…
"Success is not final. Failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts." - Sir Winston Churchill -
by justincredubil02 on Jan 29, 2009 3:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was jking…Im actually a supporter of the bringing in Tex in that trade…
...catsports...
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm actually in favor of re-trading for tex.
Think Heyward + Hanson + Freeman + Gorkys could get it done?
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 29, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t say that that one play changed the entire season, but it did change the mentality vs. the Phillies. The Braves won like.. 3? times against the Phillies all year, and several of them were true heartbreakers. The Johnson drop was the one that dinged the Braves’ then-home field invincibility, and the Phillies pretty much won every game in Atlanta all season. That may or may not have been the same game where the Braves lost to a play at the plate where the tying-run was thrown-out at home by Shane Victorino.
Jo-Jo’s one stellar start of the year, where he went 8 innings, the Braves couldn’t score a single run to support him.
And let’s not forget the one time the Braves managed to get to Cole Hamels and torch him for like nine runs before the Braves coughed up the lead in the bottom frame of that same inning.
I hate to admit it, but the Phillies were our daddy all last year, and then won it all, to further infuriate Philly haters more.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Jan 29, 2009 3:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that throw by victorino
was one of the best i have ever seen.
"Success is not final. Failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts." - Sir Winston Churchill -
by justincredubil02 on Jan 29, 2009 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fucking Chuck and Suck…
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 4:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There was no pretty much. They DID win every game in Atlanta
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 29, 2009 5:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Someone needs to find that thread…
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I swear, it only took me all of 5 min to find it GOD
705 comments. 10:30 PM mark is where the fun began.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Jan 29, 2009 4:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey Hey!!
Looky at who was the first to post! BOOOYAH! Just kidding.
best defensive shortstop in baseball hahahahahahahahahah (omar visquel)
by mvandonsel on Jan 29, 2009 4:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
haha, nice find. Guess I could have looked it up myself.
Now, excuse me for a minute while I read this thing…
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm reading it too...
FUCKING KELLY JOHNSON…
…where is that fucker who argued with me about him being a good fielder?!
-Smoltz’s Beard
So Quality….
best defensive shortstop in baseball hahahahahahahahahah (omar visquel)
by mvandonsel on Jan 29, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would have totally argued about that with Smoltz….
...catsports...
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 4:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m dying at the fact that Bigjoe was trying to nickname Boyer “The Fire Hydrant”
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What was sadder was that Boyer did a good job with that save situation. For all intents and purposes, he had that save notched, if not for the drop. That type of game could’ve been a huge springboard for his confidence, and prior to his burnout, could been what he needed to be more effective.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Jan 29, 2009 5:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i wanna put my fucking head in a blender right now.
-bigjoe
best defensive shortstop in baseball hahahahahahahahahah (omar visquel)
by mvandonsel on Jan 29, 2009 5:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Expect more goodness if I do a couple games a week LIVE FROM CAMPUS like I’m planning on.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 29, 2009 5:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I have only the highest expectations for your comments.
best defensive shortstop in baseball hahahahahahahahahah (omar visquel)
by mvandonsel on Jan 29, 2009 5:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
GOD that was fun. We should do game threads for spring training games, for those of us who like to procrastinate at work.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 29, 2009 5:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
done and done.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 29, 2009 5:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Your post comes nowhere near the comments record.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 29, 2009 5:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If they can top this
then I have no choice but to stick around : )
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 29, 2009 3:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
When you’ve got open threads that begin to bog down most high-speed connections, then you’re on to something. Off-season, this is certainly a looker, especially since for the most part, it stuck to baseball, instead of going into goofy Atlanta happenings, or players wives or girlfriends.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Jan 29, 2009 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Poor Mark Kotsay....
No man should be forced to come home to this…..
best defensive shortstop in baseball hahahahahahahahahah (omar visquel)
by mvandonsel on Jan 29, 2009 6:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Mommie???
Now wonder I didn’t get that Kotsay jersey for christmas that I found under her bed :(
...catsports...
by bwellnjonesco on Jan 29, 2009 7:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no thread is complete w/o Mrs Kotsay
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 29, 2009 9:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldnt mind spendin time
In that dugout
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 30, 2009 12:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i cant tell if thats an innuendo…..if it is i love it
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 30, 2009 12:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To cap this thread off....here is Jordan Schafer in drag.
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 30, 2009 12:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
did u get that from facebook… cause there’s a picture on there that would lead one to beleive he may have taken HGH…kid is shredded
(does this sound a lil gay… damn)
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 30, 2009 1:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You mean this picture?
And who says I wasnt at that party / taking the pictures?
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 30, 2009 2:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
haha
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 30, 2009 9:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ooo ive had the man crush for quite some time… i refuse to part with him in my keeper league no matter the price…
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 30, 2009 11:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You can actually see his HGH behind him
It’s in the red jug, behind the jergens
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 30, 2009 2:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Great.
Eminem in the outfield. Just what I wanted to see.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Jan 30, 2009 8:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 30, 2009 9:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Its like i’m looking in the mirror, without the bling. Seriously, i smell a Bowflex sponsorship in the near future.
by 10-4 on Jan 30, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I bet he’s already given all his fat clothes to his fat friends.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Jan 30, 2009 11:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I dare say that Kelly Johnsons wife
has Mrs. Kotsay beat. Maybe its just cause I’m a brunette guy
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 30, 2009 2:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m glad somebody finally brought this up. She’s pretty rockin. Way to go KJ.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 30, 2009 11:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
is that rachel ray?
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 30, 2009 11:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
now that you mention it...
if she was a little older and bigger she would look like Rachel Ray… creepy.
by BraveBronco0121 on Jan 30, 2009 11:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like Kelly...
but man is he a GOMER!!!
best defensive shortstop in baseball hahahahahahahahahah (omar visquel)
by mvandonsel on Jan 30, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They Gah-uh-ah-uh-ah-leee!
"Debated ya right not one person agreed with me" by ATLsportsfrk on Dec 27, 2008 6:31 PM EST
by scstrato on Jan 30, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This thread has delivered. I’m laughing my ass off over here reading the comments. Then again, it’s been a slow day.
by Sparhawk on Jan 29, 2009 6:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Last Comment
This has been thoroughly pleasurable.
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 29, 2009 10:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Oh, whoops, came in a lil’ late and posted on top of your Last Comment a couple times above.
by mattdiaz4life on Jan 30, 2009 1:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Last one to the party
Is the first to get the roofies
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 30, 2009 1:24 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Have u seen the kid play?
I have..and I’ve actually talked to him several times..I’m good friends with one of his teammates. He’s a good guy..little immature, but hey he’s young.
But bottom line is this..He’s not nearly ready for the bigs..He needs, imo, 2 more years of double or triple a at a minimum. I’ve been around baseball my whole life and I honestly stand by that. He will be a good one b/c he has the things you can’t teach (assuming he works hard) but he’s no where near ready.
So that’s what I ask any of you..Have you seen him play? I watched him this entire past season.
by phil413 on Jan 30, 2009 11:36 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Personally, I’ve seen him play a bunch. You nailed it, great kid, a little immature, but he’s very focused and knows what he wants. I don’t think he needs two years, I’d say by the end of this year after spending most of the year in AAA, he’ll be ready to tackle the majors full time. But, time will tell on that.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 30, 2009 12:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
While I respect your opinion
Frank Wren and Bobby Cox do not. He will see a lot of playing time in 2009, perhaps even a whole seasons worth. He in no way needs 2-3 more years, thats just insane to consider keeping him down until hes 25. And yes, I have seen him play. His defense is major league ready, and his offense is better than Francoeurs.
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 30, 2009 12:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Which Frenchy?
B/c if you’re referring to MS Braves Frenchy then you’re way off..if you’re referring to this past year Frenchy then You were better than that one..
You may be right, the kid could be a freak and just make big time adjustments like that guy for the Marlins did the last couple of weeks (center-fielder..just forgot his name), but anyway..I watched Schae look bad hitting all year..He plays good d and he’s got above-average speed and a very good arm but he looked lost hitting..yes the jump was big last year but will the jump from double a to the bigs not be bigger??
by phil413 on Jan 30, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you were talking about Cameron Maybin. I watched Maybin a ton last year with Carolina; Jordan is much better than he is.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 30, 2009 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a pretty bold statement...
seeing as Maybin is widely considered a premier talent. I’ve got nothing against either of them, and in many ways, they’re very similar. Both are extremely gifted althetes with power and speed. Both seem prone to excessive strikeouts.
Personally, I wouldn’t mind having either.
by BraveBronco0121 on Jan 30, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Personally, I wouldn’t mind having either.
The difference in their work ethic is what does it for me. Maybin is the last to arrive and the first to leave. The kid takes BP like a joke. He has no hustle or drive. When it comes to the intangibles, Jordan has him in every way, and that’s what I think pushes him over the top.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Jan 30, 2009 4:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
INTERESTING.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 30, 2009 1:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For what it’s worth, Goldstein rates Maybin as a five-star prospect and Schafer as a four-star prospect. He sees 30/30 potential in Maybin as opposed to 20/20 for Schafer. Both have excellent instincts in center field, but I believe the consensus among most everyone I’ve read is that Maybin will have better power and speed down the road.
by mattdiaz4life on Jan 30, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Isn’t Maybin a little younger too?
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 30, 2009 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybin is seven months younger.
by mattdiaz4life on Jan 30, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought he was like 19. I’m in a fantasy land here.
SWAGGA LIKE BJONES, SWAGGA LIKE BJONES
JOE-BO FOR THE BENCH IN 09
by bigjoe on Jan 30, 2009 9:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
so did I
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Feb 2, 2009 9:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But he has to make the transition sometime, no?
Why not in a year like 2009 when the Braves are (despite their best propaganda) looking towards the future? Sure he may take some lumps in the first few weeks/months, but who doesnt? We both know that this kid is uber-confident, borderline cocky. I dont think it will hurt his feelings too much. Plus, he hit around .320 with a .400+ OBP over the entire last month of AA last season. He seems to transition pretty quickly if you ask me. Get him down pat this year, and by 2010 when the full fledged youth movement starts, he will already be established and ready to rock’n’roll.
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 30, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
thats a good idea… but even cocky kids can get stuck in a rut… i would like him to get 2 months of seasoning in AAA and see what is up. if he is doing well then move him up.. i certainly want him in ATL this year (if nothing else for my fantasy purposes) but i want to make sure he is as ready as possible
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Jan 30, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldnt be against
A Evan Longoria type deal. Let him smack AAA pitchers around for a while and then bring him up in May. I just think from day 1 that he would offer more than Gegor White or Josh Anderson. I hate to see an asset sitting in the minors while the team sinks in the standings.
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 30, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you swo..give him atleast 2 months in triple a..I think your right atl that this is the year for it but are you already conceding the year? And the reason I ask that is b/c starting him in cf opening day you are..
You’re right, he did finish the year strong so hopefully thats a sign of things to come..but my whole point is, he struggled the entire year except that last month..and by struggle I’m being nice..the thing that’s crazy about him is he’ll k three times in a row and look horrible then hit a laser into right center for a stand-up triple..the potential is out the roof
yes I am talking about maybin and I disagree on the comparison, as of now
by phil413 on Jan 30, 2009 12:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
are you already conceding the year? And the reason I ask that is b/c starting him in cf opening day you are..
Well, I counter that if we are starting Anderson or Blanco then we are. Right off the bat, all 3 may not do much to help the team, but as the season goes alone I see Schafer as being able to have a very positive impact, whereas Blanco and Anderson just fill a spot on the lineup card.
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 30, 2009 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
LETS ALL FOCUS ON SOMETHING IMPORTANT
Our mothers didnt name us THIS
That must have been a terrible childhood.
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 30, 2009 1:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Holy shit...
I didn’t believe that was real until I looked him up on Fangraphs…
by BraveBronco0121 on Jan 30, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ha ha
We held a strat tourny a couple years ago that was based off the 84 season. I drafted Rusty and used him as my leadoff/cf. Wish you could have heard the ripping I took, opponents aren’t allowed to roll the dice until the hitter is “announced”. Funny story, we had a retired preacher playing with us. He spilled his coffee on a dice roll so I picked up my cards and asked him if he would mind wiping off my Rusty Kuntz.
"Debated ya right not one person agreed with me" by ATLsportsfrk on Dec 27, 2008 6:31 PM EST
by scstrato on Jan 30, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Haha, that’s awesome.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 30, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
2 words, Playground Hell.
"The only time the Mets win is in the offseason"
by Falconzfan284 on Jan 30, 2009 4:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Holy crap!
400 comments! I go to New York for the week and you all have the internet equivalent of a slumber party!
by gondeee on Jan 30, 2009 9:56 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I blame Royhobbs. His incessant posting of “hot baseball wives” is what caused it.
"Debated ya right not one person agreed with me" by ATLsportsfrk on Dec 27, 2008 6:31 PM EST
by scstrato on Jan 30, 2009 10:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the moral of the story is
You should front-page everything I post. I mean, the results speak for themselves!
60% of the time, it works every time
by ATLandUNC on Jan 31, 2009 12:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing like a good ole’ Adam Dunn argument…
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Feb 2, 2009 9:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
theres no better way to start the day… ive trained my Gf to argue that Adam Dunn is a bad player… that way when i wake up i cna have a 20 minute argument abotu why he would be a successful player at any spot in the lineup and any team
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Feb 2, 2009 9:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There are so many other things you should have trained your girlfriend to do before that. Unless, you’ve done all of them already, I’m ashamed of you.
www.dropoutproductions.com
by cbwilk on Feb 2, 2009 11:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
like train her to understand that Corey Patterson is a horrible baseball player?
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
by Swo12bv on Feb 3, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dedication to your craft. I’m impressed.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Feb 3, 2009 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
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