I like it
by rocket8188 on Jan 13, 2009 7:26 PM EST
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PrintYeah he did overpay for Derek Lowe and while I'm not a proponent of "making a move just to make a move" I enjoy the fact that Wren has did anything that isn't a sideways step. I'm a little sore about Smoltz still and if you would pay 15 per for Lowe I think you could stomach 10 for Smoltz. When healthy who would have rather have?
Now on to the corner outfield issue. Dunn is the guy. Has to be, there is still quite a bit of money out there like Gondz pointed out and I think Wren realized that the fan base is losing confidence. Anything less than a big time play for Dunn or (not jinxing it) Manny would be a disappointment. Now about locking Jeff Francouer in a room.... Wait. Maybe we could all pitch in and buy him a "Swing A Way"
And this for Dunn
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I didn't want to start another FanPost
Does this mean that deal Wren had “laying on his desk for 6 weeks” is officially dead. I guess so but I am interested to see what he turned down.
"The only time the Mets win is in the offseason"
I question whether it was factual at all. Wren hasn’t been the type of guy that talks to the media about such things, so why start now? Besides, what other GM would keep a trade proposal out there for 6 weeks? I’d be willing to bet saying that was a way to get Boras to just accept the deal.
are you kidding?
Wren isnt the type of guy to talk about things like this? Why do you think he got burned so badly by Furcal’s agents? Why do you think we have lived in disappointment for the past 3 months? Wren has been VERY open about his roster moves and plans. To say otherwise is just ignorant.
"Success is not final. Failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts." - Sir Winston Churchill -
by justincredubil02 on Jan 13, 2009 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
What?
1. The Furcal fiasco- Wren sent a term sheet to one of his agents. Before this, 100% of the time this meant it was a done deal. He had no reason to think otherwise in this case.
2. Peavy- Towers acts like the media is his personal psychiatrist…he tells them everything. None of what went public came from Wren.
3. Vasquez- there was rumor we had an interest in trading for him, but very little was said until, all of a sudden, we had traded for him.
There are always rumors that float around from “sources” sometimes within the organization and sometimes merely from speculation outside of it. But as for Wren himself, he has been public with how he likes to keep things close to the vest, much like Schuerholz did, which is why he was so annoyed at all the intricate details of his dealings with the Padres getting out.
You can disagree with me, that’s totally fine. But I would ensure you’re 100% correct before calling someone ignorant.
by coldriver10 on Jan 13, 2009 11:12 PM EST up reply actions
Ok...
1. Wren didn’t deny back before the winter meetings that he was talking to Furcal’s agents.
2. Wren made it very public that we were pursuing Peavy, but that we had limitations on who we were willing to give up for him. Wren also publicly announced that our negotiations with SD were finished. Why would he announce this if he never told anyone we were talking to them?
3. Nobody ever said anything about Vasquez…
Wren has decided to keep things “close to his vest” after getting shafted publicly by Furcal’s D-bag agents. Before this, he wasn’t so tight-lipped. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that Wren tells all, but he isn’t (or at least, hasn’t been until now) percieved as a secretive GM.
I am 100% correct when I say that we knew of some deals that Wren was trying to do that fell through. Remember AJ Burnette, anyone? Wren was very public about that, as well as public about the Peavy negotiations.
No GM in their right mind would tell details of an offer, so I am not saying that Wren does that. But he definately doesn’t keep more quiet than the average GM.
"Success is not final. Failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts." - Sir Winston Churchill -
by justincredubil02 on Jan 13, 2009 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
I just see it differently. In the Peavy case, everything else had gotten out in public thanks to Towers that he had to say something (if he did say anything about what our trade limitations were), and I think him going public and saying the trade talks were finished was a very calculated move.
And I’m sure in the case of Furcal he probably responded to some reporter’s question with “Well, we’re exploring all possiblities right now…” because nothing concrete ever came from him until after the term sheet was presented. Also, you commented that Wren doesn’t keep things close to the vest, so I mentioned Vazquez as an example of him doing so.
Besides, you’re arguing that Wren doesn’t keep things close to the vest but at the same time arguing that these “several trade proposals, including one that’s been sitting on my desk for 6 weeks” are real. Which, if they’re real, means he’s been tight-lipped about it.
Personally, I think that’s more his style. When info about trades and FA signings gets out, it’s oftentimes not the GM’s fault but more someone who leaked the information (from either side…agents, other teams, sources within the organization), and the GM is left to make some generic comment publicly about it because it’s already been leaked. That’s how I’ve seen the whole offseason go.
I think I am glad that you are not the GM...
If we signed Manny, I think I would boycott the team until he left. Manny is an incredible talent, no doubt. But, he is also very talented at ruining a team. He is a “Me-first” player and we know that in Atlanta, that crap don’t fly. Signing Dunn would be a mistake too, IMHO. I dont like his average or his lack of clutch hitting (I think I have talked about this enough in other threads though).
Wren should take one of our now expendable pitchers (preferrably Jo Jo) and trade him along with one of our many OF prospects (Gorkys would be a solid option) and another youngster or two for a power bat – a la Jermaine Dye or someone like that. If we are going to sign a FA though, I would rather it be Abreau over Dunn.
"Success is not final. Failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts." - Sir Winston Churchill -
by justincredubil02 on Jan 13, 2009 11:06 PM EST reply actions
if we trade for a power bat Id like it to be a guy who we know will be around for near his prime, i think Dye is well past his prime and will be entering his decline soon. I think Mags falls in the same category…the reason i say decline is based off age, not necessarily recent performance. I dont necessarily mean we should sign some guy who is 26 or something, but a guy in his late 20s early 30s. I like Ludwick and to a lesser extent Ankiel still, (beware of specualtion) they need pitching depth just like we have perhaps we could get something there.
"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."
I agree with the concept
but disagree with Ludwick and Ankiel…I think Ludwick may be a one-hit wonder. And do we really need a long term solution in LF right now (more than 2-3 years)? I think our system will produce a solid bat in the OF within the next year or two. I think a 2 year rental would be ok (like Dye), but ideally we would land a Nady/Swisher or some other dark horse.
"Success is not final. Failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts." - Sir Winston Churchill -
by justincredubil02 on Jan 13, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions
/facepalm @ Dunn comments
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 14, 2009 12:53 AM EST up reply actions
A thought
How did Manny do in LA? I know Manny is a “me-first” guy, but Gary Sheffield more or less kept his head on straight during his time in Atlanta. Joe Torre and Bobby Cox both run tight operations and if Torre can keep him bottled up, then there’s a good chance that Cox could as well.
The left field option is intriguing. The Braves are playing it very close to the vest, it seems, as you know they have to actively be pursuing a slew of options.
Manny in LA and Sheff in Atlanta had one thing in common – contract years.
Of course both of them were going to keep their mouths shut and play their asses off; their future wallets were dependent on it.
And Sheff wasn’t nearly as big of a headcase until he turned around 35-36 (Which is when Manny’s headcase ways finally boiled over) and was dealing with lots of injury.
Manny might have played the role of a saint in Los Angeles, but nobody’s buying the notion that they’ll get that for 3-4 years. Sheff couldn’t last one full season in Detroit before he started throwing the race card around like he were a blackjack dealer.
Eventually someone will pick Manny up, because his bat is too tempting to not try out, but his financial situation might struggle. Regardless, I’m hoping for a situation where he’ll regret leaving Boston and the $20mil option year he’d likely have been picked up on, and in a Manny-esque tantrum fire Scott Boras, and further ding his smug reputation even more.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
Yeah...
I bought the first one!!!
best defensive shortstop in baseball hahahahahahahahahah (omar visquel)
Can I just point out that Babe Ruth was a MAJOR pain in the ass for Boston before his trade/sale?
Let’s not crucify Manny here. He’s a liability in the field and it cuts into his value significantly – in the end, he’ll be overpaid because of his big name and “clutch” reputation. I don’t want to sign him for that reason. But all this stuff about how bad he is as a teammate, etc etc, just doesn’t hold too much water. You don’t turn down a great player because he has the charisma of a horse’s ass and throws the occasional hissy fit. If we could get him for, say, 2 years/30 million I would see no reason not to jump on that. I’ve got a feeling he’ll go for a lot more than that, though.
by BraveBronco0121 on Jan 14, 2009 1:44 AM EST up reply actions
very talented at RUINING A TEAM? he ruined so many team that he got 2 rings out of the deal, and 10 playoff appearances.
BIG JOE SUCK ONE
and that is why
the sox were so good last year…bc “manny being manny” made them a better team. his two rings were won in SPITE of him instead of b/c of him. Big Papi had more to do with those rings than manny. Your argument is weak in that it takes a team to win a championship, and not just a over-paid, over-hyped, horrid defensive left-fielder who cant even decide which knee he wants to tell people is hurt.
"Success is not final. Failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts." - Sir Winston Churchill -
by justincredubil02 on Jan 14, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
oh by the way.
dunn had an OPS of .929 with RISP last season. keep talking out your ass
BIG JOE SUCK ONE
He doesn’t seem very open-minded in regards to Dunn. Better to just bite your tongue.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 14, 2009 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not
and I have admitted that. If we were looking for him to be a complimentary piece, that is one thing, but to have him be the “Savior of our outfield and our offense” is a little much. There are much better options than a “All-or-nothing” defensively defficient LF.
"Success is not final. Failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts." - Sir Winston Churchill -
by justincredubil02 on Jan 14, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
Options in general, or options available this offseason?
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jan 14, 2009 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
he is also
a career .236 hitter with risp. I have already made my arguments against Dunn and why I dont like walks from the cleanup spot (as opposed to hits. obviously, a walk is better than an out).
Besides, I would rather talk “out of my ass” than be percieved by the majority of the members of this blog as an actual ass like you are.
"Success is not final. Failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts." - Sir Winston Churchill -
by justincredubil02 on Jan 14, 2009 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
not when you have
a runner on second…a walk, while better than an out, does you no good. you want your cleanup guy to be able to knock guys in, not just walk all the time. dont get me wrong, i can appreciate a guy who is patient and takes pitches, and if he were not being slotted for our cleanup spot, i would love bringing him in! But, i just expect a little more hitting out of the cleanup spot. i think Dunn is better that what we have now, obviously, but i think there are much better options out there for our cleanup hitter. plus, his defense is a liability.
"Success is not final. Failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts." - Sir Winston Churchill -
by justincredubil02 on Jan 14, 2009 10:17 PM EST up reply actions
i agree with you on dunn. i dont understand almost everyone on the dunn wagon. the braves have no interest in him at all give it up. talk about someone that can hit more and a righty and play defense. LIKE LUDWICK
the ludwick that’s older than dunn, has been hurt most of his career, and has had one good season? THAT ludwick?
BIG JOE SUCK ONE
So weird to think of Ludwick being older than Dunn
by mattdiaz4life on Jan 14, 2009 11:10 PM EST up reply actions
I am not on the Ludwick wagon either
fyi…I am on the dark-horse wagon. That is to say, I think there are guys out there who we arent talking about that are better options. I dont have any names in particular, but Nady/Swisher are more attractive to me than any of the FA right now. I definately do NOT want to take a gamble that Ludwick isnt a one hit wonder.
"Success is not final. Failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts." - Sir Winston Churchill -
by justincredubil02 on Jan 15, 2009 12:10 AM EST up reply actions
yeah he’ll be overpaid because of his name and “clutch” reputation. Not the fact that after being traded he nearly hit .400, 17 hr, and 53 rbis. And in the playoffs he was even more absurd. If they could get him for 20 mil I’d be happy. That’s just me. Great hitter is great hitter. He’ll be overpaid because hitters in his class is something like A Rod, Pujols, Miggy Cabrera, Utley
eh...
sure he can hit, but he also plays a terrible left field. Over the last four years, he’s been worth a whopping -65 runs defensively. Factor in a standard positional adjustment for left field and you shave about 23 or so runs off of his value. So if he’s around 60 runs above replacement with the bat (something like .292/.388/.594 in 150 games, his 2005 season), he winds up as a roughly +4 win player. That’s still excellent, no doubt about it. But ask yourself this – would you pay 20 million per for Matt Holliday? He may not hit like Manny, but due to his far better defense was his equal in 2008.
by BraveBronco0121 on Jan 14, 2009 4:33 AM EST up reply actions
Trade for Nady
then sign Andruw for the minimum and head for spring training.
How good would our team have looked if we had traded for Jason Bay last year with the supposed package? Shame, really.
i cant remember
what pieces we were offering…can you shed some light on that?
"Success is not final. Failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts." - Sir Winston Churchill -
by justincredubil02 on Jan 14, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
Right…not really a strong rumor, but there was some thought that it could happen. I imagine one of the A ballers would’ve been Rohrbough or Locke. Still, though…I think I’d do that even today…assuming we still HAD Lilli, of course.
by soup du jour on Jan 14, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think that one was ever a question from the Braves end. But, the Pirates got lured into being a part of a big move with the Dodgers and Red Sox, some kind of backwards thinking PR move, and ended up getting less than they would have in the Braves deal. And that’s why they’re the Pirates.
Really?
I was under the impression that the Pirates were the driving force behind the deal. They didn’t like what they were getting back from the Marlins in terms of prospects, so they got the Dodgers involved as the third team. I don’t recall the Braves ever being mentioned in talks for Bay at all.
by mattdiaz4life on Jan 14, 2009 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
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