Francoeur Demotion a Mistake
by gondeee on Jul 7, 2008 9:33 AM EDT
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PrintIt seems that the demotion of under performing players is en vogue this year; Dontrelle Willis, Brett Myers, and now Jeff Francoeur. When it comes to demoting these pitchers, I can see the value of giving them time to rediscover their form in the minor leagues -- pitching is more about the repetition of mechanics than hitting -- but when it comes to Jeff Francoeur demoting him was the wrong move -- because his problems hitting major league pitching cannot be fixed by hitting minor league pitching.
We all know that Frenchy is a free swinger -- that's why some of his love him, but it is also one of his flaws. Announcers often quip that he's never met a pitch he didn't like. But this is not a habit that will be broken at double-A Mississippi. The minors are full of fastball pitchers who locate their pitches nearer to the plate than major league pitchers -- and Francoeur's free-swinging style will no doubt find more pitches to hit in that fastball paradise. The nature of pitching at the double-A level plays right into the bad habits of Francoeur's approach to hitting.
Another reason not to demote him is that we really have no one better to replace him with. We're filling in with Greg Norton and Jason Perry, one of whom is hitting worse than Francoeur since his arrival from Seattle, and there is a reason the other has never made the major leagues in six previous professional seasons.
The right thing to do would have been to continue to let Francoeur work out his problems in Atlanta. He's a major leaguer and that's what they're expected to do. This demotion is possibly a further indictment of at least one other member of the Braves -- hitting coach Terry Pendleton. TP has often practiced a hands-off-I'll-wait-until-you-come-to-me-for-help approach, but it is becoming more apparent that this approach is not working for everyone. It didn't work for Andruw Jones, who likely needed someone to get in his face and tell him what to do; and it also doesn't seem to be working for Jeff Francoeur, who needed TP to tell him to ignore everyone else except him and his advice -- Pendleton needed to be the one to straighten out Francoeur.
This demotion could also pose a serious threat to Francoeur's psyche. This is a player who was held up by the Braves as the new face of the franchise. I understand the need to not have that face struggling, but punishment is not the way to fix him.
In all likelihood Jeff Francoeur will rip into Southern League pitching for the next two or three weeks, and his replacements in the majors will fail to provide any positive replacement value. We'll see Frenchy back up after the All-Star break, after swinging at double-A fastballs for a fortnight, and he'll fall right back into the same bad habits he had before he was demoted, because the problem is not that Francoeur can't hit professional pitching, it's that he can't hit major league pitching. The adjustments he has to make to be able to hit in the majors simply cannot be realized in the minors, this time in the minors will only reinforce his bad habits.
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Being optimistic
I think the temporary demotion to the minors will be a good thing for Francoeur. Frank Wren was on the radio this morning, and explained that Jeff was definitely not happy with him about the decision, but also mentioned that he will not be down there to exceed 20 days, otherwise it counts as an option, and it will reflect in Francoeur’s salary, which will be sure to cause further problems.
So ready or not, Francoeur will likely be back within the next 17 days.
I think it will help him, because quite frankly he wasn’t hitting anything prior to the demotion. Fastball heaven or not, it will at least remind him of what it feels like to get solid base hits, hopefully bring him back to his normal stance, help bring some confidence back to him, and help him relax in the less busy environment of the minors. All of which I am hoping will help him in the bigger perspective.
To make a Hoosiers reference, all ballparks have the same dimensions on the infield, and variations on the outfield. Most outfields are roughly 320 ft (give or take) down the alleys, and 410 ft. to straight center, anything less left or right (also give or take). It doesn’t matter if it’s at Turner Field, Trustmark Field, or the Diamond, there’s always a place in the outfield for a ball to land to make a hit.
I normally bite my tongue on this guy, but I will agree with you on one thing – the way TP, the batting coach is doing his job. Admittedly, I’m not his (the batting coach) biggest fan, and I often joke about how McCann’s dad would make a better batting coach (tongue-in-cheek). Others like to site Andruw’s massive stat years as praise to TP, but I saw it as Andruw’s taking it upon himself to study Albert Pujols and mimicking everything about him, resulting in some Pujols-like stats. I’m probably not giving TP enough credit or respect, but often times, I think the success of a lot of current players are more on their own talents rather than how they’ve been coached. McCann has admitted to going to his dad to diagnose his swing, who has seemed to help him out of slumps in the past. Chipper is just a pure hitting savant, and as commendable he would praise TP, I still think Chipper’s successes are purely on his own Pujols-given talent. I’m rambling, but the bottom line is that I agree witht gondeee on his stance with TP with Francoeur.
Sooner, rather than later, I just hope we’ll see this:
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
Haha
I thought about that after I posted it. Better now?
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
If anyone is curious...
The reason why I “joke” about McCann’s dad being a hitting coach. It’s not like he’s without credential.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
Jeff went down to fix a mechanical problem with his swing during live action. You see that little toe tap he has been doing? That little toe tap has been messing him over. If he can learn to either not do it, or adjust with it, then he should do pretty well. He didn’t go down there for a confidence build, he went to fix a problem.
Check out my Smoltz Tribute site
http://www.smoltz3000.com
You know, now that I think about it, a toe-tap is what screwed up Ryan Langerhans. Where is he now? Warming the bench. For the Washington Nationals.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
Chip's signature
I think the youngens see Chip hitting a ton with that toe-tap, and they try to mimick it. So sad…..
Sorry gondeee
I disagree. Francoeur needed to get back to basics, and so he went back to his old coach with the hopes of doing just that. Obviously he isn’t facing major-league pitching, but that isn’t point. He is in live action situations, but also can get some reps in the cages to just get his natural swing back. I also think that the 2-3 weeks down there will actually be a nice mental break from the pressure of having to perform at the big-league level and he can just play. I don’t blame him for being unhappy, but I thought his comments were a little uncharacteristic and obviously filled with raw emotion. I just can’t wait to see the “Spotlight on Jeff Francoeur part 2” on SportSouth.
As for TP, it is hard to say. I guess we really can’t determine how much he is doing for our hitters, and there are no real statistics that can determine his contributions. I think he is capable, but I’ve noticed a few things. Why does it seem like we struggle to put down good bunts, especially our pitchers- 10th in baseball in SHs and 29th in SFs? Why would they let Jeff mess around with his swing in the first place? Why would they let Andruw keep tinkering with his swing after his Pujols year? Why are we 6th in the MLB in GIDPs? Why are we only 17th in XBHs? Are any of these things related to TP? I don’t know.
"Have you ever had your heart broken?"
"Yeah, when we lost the pennant in '87."
I agree jug!
I live in Ms. Watched Jeff on the 4th and am going to game tonight. He is doing GREAT here and I hope getting his mojo back. The fans are cheering him on and he’s hitting great….4 last nt w/a triple. Hope that will help his confidence.
I didnt like the way Atlanta mgmt handled this and can’t blame Francoeur for being upset. Plus, give the guy a break….he’s only 24. He will be back, better than ever.
TP? Personally, I don’t think he’s done a thing for our offense. Nobody but Chipper is setting the world on fire. I thought that’s what a batting coach was for…..help players that are struggling at the plate.
The Braves NEED Francoeur. Hope they realize that.
You made some good points, Gondee.
Jeff’s confidence and TP’s job were the first two things I thought of when I saw that he was sent down. I dont know about the confidence thing - I dont Jeff - but I can definitely see how it would hurt his performance.
But I also think we need a serious discussion about TP. I love him as much as the next guy, but if he is the manager in waiting, shouldn’t we be able to see some clear production at his current job? I just don’t feel like I can see him improving anyone’s hitting,
The John Scheurholz era of class may be over
Joe Simpson and the gang (I can’t remember all who were in on it) were discussing Francoeur’s toe tap and other movements before his swing, and how all of that was messing him up. His most success came when he waited on the ball and then attacked it with few extra movements. So maybe there are some mechanical things he could be working on rather than just regaining his aggressiveness.
I, too, think the demotion was a huge mistake, but I don’t know what else could have been done – TP wasn’t helping (apparantly), and that’s supposedly who Jeff should be able to go to correct his problems. I don’t necessarily blame Terry; I just don’t know what else could really have been done. And for what it’s worth, the Braves as a team are hitting .267, which is good for 3rd in the league, so TP, if he is going to get balmed for the hitting, maybe should get credit for the hitting? My opinion is that the problem is TIMELY hitting – the team can’t seem to drive guys in, especially when it counts (they’re 9th in the league in RBIs). Maybe TP can get some blame for not helping guys with situational hitting. And the team can’t bunt….but that’s another discussion….
Re: Frank Wren – there was a John Scheurholz thing on Sports South yesterday, and one of his comments about his style of leadership really struck me and made me think of the Francoeur incident. Scheurholz said something along the lines that his philosophy is to get really good people and treat them with the utmost respect at all times. Well, if that translates to players, then Jeff has been left out of that loop. But of course, now this is Wren’s watch.
In reading Jeff’s comments, he points to all his games played, all the injuries he’s played through, everything he’s done for the franchise and the city – only to get a 5 minute chat about a demotion. As big a Braves fan as I am, I almost never went to games (traffic, distance, cost, etc), but when Francoeur came up, I went – probably 5 or 6 games a year starting with is arrival, and specifically because of it. Something about the excitement he brought made it fun again. (And yes we support the Braves in many other ways – I’m in Rome 20-30 games a year). My family and I are huge Frenchy fans since his Rome days – he’s a very good player and a very classy individual. I believe that Francoeur, given time, could have gotten out of the funk. Now, he’ll get out of it and maybe have a major chip on his shoulder because of the way Wren chose to handle things. Then he may opt to go elsewhere, which would be fine to some, but a real loss for the team and the franchise in my opinion. If memory serves, didn’t Wren completely disrespect Cal Ripken once in Baltiomore for being a few minutes late to a flight, even though Cal called to let the team know? Something like that – just very disrespectful of a class human being. If this is how Frank Wren is going to do things, I am not as optimistic for the future of the Braves.
Long story short: I think Frank Wren blew it on this one.
You're points about Wren are well-taken.
I think he is an adequate and capable GM, but he is no Scheurholz. Nobody is, nor ever will be. I know Wren is relatively new as GM in Atlanta, but he isn’t going to win many friends doing that sort of stuff to guys like Frenchy (the way he was sent down). The whole thing had a similar feel to when the Mets fired Randolph, and I don’t like doing anything similar to the Mets. We can only hope Wren learned a few things from this experience as well.
"Have you ever had your heart broken?"
"Yeah, when we lost the pennant in '87."
Some agreement, some disagreement here...
I want to start out by saying I am a fan of Jeff.
We don’t know all the details of exactly how everything was handled here, but nothing I have read seems to indicate that Jeff was treated with anything but respect. Just because he didn’t agree with the decision doesn’t mean he was treated disrespectfully. A couple of thing you said seem to not add up for me. First you state
he’s a very good player and a very classy individual., but then turn around and say
Now, he’ll get out of it and maybe have a major chip on his shoulder because of the way Wren chose to handle things. Then he may opt to go elsewhere,. I agree that Jeff is a “classy” person, and for the most part has done an outstanding job of handling all the attention that has come his way. I think, though, that assuming he will now have an attitude due to this “demotion” sells him a little short. If he really is the smart, classy guy I think he is, and if he displays the integrity I believe he has, he will understand that in the long run this was not meant as a punishment but as a real attempt to help. If not, well, then he wouldn’t really deserve to be held in such high esteem after all, right?
No contradiction from me
A classy individual can get angry – it’s human nature. So I’m not contradicting myself. I saw Jeff in an interview tell about a time he had a bad game in the minors and some fan was asking for a bat. Jeff said, “You want the bat? Go get it!” and threw it into the woods. And that was in the minors. His dad tells the story of when Jeff was struggling in Mississippi after McCann got the call, and the dad drove out to see Jeff play. So in the middle of this terrible slump, dad shows up to see Jeff signing autographs for fans before the game for quite a long time. It left an impression on Mr. Francoeur that his son still made time for fans even when he was really down. That’s class.
As for me, every time I’ve seen him in person, he’s always been great with my family and everybody around us. He gives his batting gloves to kids, signs everything put in front of him, and chats with people before getting down to business.
As for a chip on his shoulder, I personally wouldn’t blame him one bit if he felt betrayed by Wren – my opinion is that Frank made a decision concerning Jeff that was wrong and disrespectful. I’m a teacher – if my principal came and told me they were going to send me back to college to get things straight, I’d be pretty peeved. I suppose I’d do it, but I might also look for another employer the next school year. My point with Jeff.
With all due respect, I would imagine that if 90% of your students were failing while you were asking for $10 million, it would be hard to argue if your principal asked you to get things straight?
And, just because Francoeur is nice doesn’t mean he gets immunity from the minors. This move was made to help him get better, not punish him.
There is also a difference...
..between getting angry and saying some things or doing something you might later regret, which we all do from time to time, and “maybe having a major chip on your shoulder”, which is what you seem to be afraid will happen because everything didn’t go exactly the way he thought it should go. I am in no way saying Jeff isn’t a great person, because I feel certain he is. I still don’t understand how Wren’s decision was “disrespectful”. Could you maybe explain that a little better?
Also, you actually contradicted yourself in your post above. First you tell this story:
I saw Jeff in an interview tell about a time he had a bad game in the minors and some fan was asking for a bat. Jeff said, "You want the bat? Go get it!" and threw it into the woods.
but then say this:
So in the middle of this terrible slump, dad shows up to see Jeff signing autographs for fans before the game for quite a long time. It left an impression on Mr. Francoeur that his son still made time for fans even when he was really down. That’s class.Sure, signing autographs during a slump is a classy thing to do, but the story about throwing the bat and telling the fan to go get it sort of horrifies me. I would never have thought he would do something like that—that is true jerk-like behavior. The two examples are extremes in opposite directions.
Again, I really, really like Jeff, and I think he can be a really good player for a long time. That doesn’t mean he should be handled with kid gloves and never have to go through what plenty of other players have to go through. I just don’t think his slightly whiny attitude about the whole thing needs to be defended, although I do understand defending your favorite player.
I feel like Kramer.....
.....from the Seinfeld where he promises to stop talking, and of course can’t do it. Every time he breaks his promise, he say, “okay, starting…now!” I know for myself the worst thing to do is split hairs with a fellow blogger, but you tempt me so….
You ignored the part about human nature and how people get angry – that’s what I’m saying about Jeff and yet, somehow, I still think he’s a classy individual (throwing bats and all). People can get angry and still be good. You know, deep down on the inside. Contradicting myself would be if I said something like, “I hate creamed corn. Eating it is disgusting. But I do so love creamed corn and will be having a large portion of this very evening.” That there is a contradiction. While I, too, am not crazy about the bat throwing incident (had it happened to me, I’d likely NOT be saying he was a classy guy), I can understand, as a fellow human being, him being angry or frustrated at a situation and not handling it in the best way due to said anger.
Which brings us to his demotion. If all accounts are true and Jeff was summoned in for a 5 minute meeting and told that he, after having worked his way through the minors, spent around three years with his team, worked very hard to turn around his various slumps, and given tirelessly to his community, was going back down when a perfectly able bodied hitting coach is available (right?), I call that disrespect. When I told my wife of the demotion, her reaction was, “How embarrassing.” And it is – would be, should be. So should going to the plate and striking out and dropping your average to the .230s. But the thing is, Jeff was asked to play every day, and he did. He’s done everything asked of him (now including going to MS), and yet he gets a slap in the face by the new GM, who doesn’t have the class to discuss anything with Jeff until the bomb is dropped. It’s a shameless situation on Wren’s part, and now we see he’s changed his mind – Frank, that is.
I have a feeling that no matter what I say, you will find a contradiction and we will disagree. I’m okay with that. My dinner is ready, and I am indeed done – starting….NOW!
We must disagree
I think you’re selling Wren short based on speculation. None of us were there in the room with Francoeur, and the gang, so none of us can say that we KNOW what happened. But for what it’s worth, I’m thinking how long should a conversation like this go? It’s not like he didn’t know why he was being sent down. Maybe if Francoeur hadn’t got all upset, the conversation would have lasted longer? And there’s nothing at all to show that Wren was correcting what he now sees as a mistake. Give him a little more credit!
Also, I agree with you that Francoeur is a hard worker, and has done most everything that has been asked of him. The only thing he hasn’t done is HIT, and that’s kind of a big deal.
We could let him hang around and keep GIDP’ing, but the reality of the situation is that his poor performance is costing us wins, plus adding pressure on Francoeur himself, which is just exacerbating his situation. I’d rather hurt Jeff’s feelings and win than keep him happy and lose.
Wren is Right
Getting sent down isn’t the end of the world. Wren’s job isn’t to make Francoeur happy, it’s to win ballgames. You might be a fan of Francoeur, and we all are and want the best for him, but he’s been just AWFUL this season, not helping the team at all. Maybe the best thing that can be done for him is to let him go down and work things out, get some good hits, and let him work things out mentally. We all know how much of this game depends on the player’s mental state.
This isn’t punishment, this is to get fixed. I am glad Wren did what he needed to do to help the team win, not pander to the feelings of a player who doesn’t know how to lose.
BTW, how classy is it to go to the media and talk about how you don’t agree with your team’s decision and how much of a strain it’s put on your relationship with the team? Remember, Bobby and TP were in on the deal too. Who does Francoeur think he is to tell these guys who have all been in the game twice as long as Francoeur has been alive that he knows better than they do about what to do in a situation? Is that classy?
Classy?
It may not be classy BUT it’s not surprising for a 24 yr old. Francoeur is a competitor. He’s no more happy with his performance than Bobby or Terry. Personally, I think it was a normal reaction. I dont think he was trying to tell them he knew better…..but really, no one has been getting the job done offensively. Plus, I can think of 1 player whose defensive play has been horrendous, but he’s still there.
You wouldn’t be talking about…no, it can’t be…not him…
I'm gettin' out of this town alive...even if it kills me.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jul 7, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
What would you recommend instead, Gondee?
Or anyone in his camp, for that matter? Continue to bat FYF in the 8th spot until he comes out of his funk?
I'm gettin' out of this town alive...even if it kills me.
Toe Tap
I believe the toe tap is something Francoeur added recently to try and break out of this funk and help his timing.
Ditto secondbass.
I agree with everything your saying. Frank Wren showed no class in this situation. Hope he realizes it and at least apologizes to Frenchy for the way it was handled.
gondee, Since I will be at the game tonight, I’ll see if the toe tap still there….let ya know.
Doesn't matter now...
Francoeur has been recalled and is joining the team in Los Angeles tonight.
http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/braves/stories/2008/07/07/francoeur_0708.html
- Oh, Bobby. -
Are you serious???
Well, Im thrilled for him BUT really bummed for me!
Wow…can’t say I saw that happening.
7-13 in his three games in AA?
I'm gettin' out of this town alive...even if it kills me.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jul 7, 2008 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
i thought that's the point
to go hit crazy style for a few weeks and come back up the egotistical confident raking machine he was in 05.
Another Francoeur article.
They must not read TC, because no mention of “FYF” as a nickname by the bloggers.
"Have you ever had your heart broken?"
"Yeah, when we lost the pennant in '87."
Seriously...
...they mentioned his 2-20 line with the bases loaded, but how about the infinite number of GIDP he’s caused?
Thanks for the link. The line about Chipper in his PJs was classic.
I'm gettin' out of this town alive...even if it kills me.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jul 7, 2008 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Absolutely not. Jeff Francoeur was feeling the pressure of 30,000+ fans booing him at every at-bat, 10 reporters asking him a million questions about his slump daily and then bashing him in their columns, only for millions of other fans to see.
Francoeur was pressing. His mechanics were extremely out of whack. Terry Pendleton had been working with Francoeur early before every game, taking tons of extra batting practice.
It is unrealistic to think that the pitching coach should be able to fix every single pitcher and the batting coach should be able to fix every single batter. Is it truly Pendleton’s fault? It could be. But could the possibility that Francoeur is taking a stubborn approach – the same stubborn approach Andruw took last year when he struggled? He’s trying to pull everything for a homerun – a simple pep-talk is going to convince him not to? Someone yelling at him is going to convince him to abandon a successful approach of 5+ years? Thousands of fans boo him at every at-bat, yet one person is going to be able to convince him. Give me a break.
The Braves said from the get go, this is not a demotion, they do not care what the stat results are, this is not a “make him feel better against lesser pitching,” move. This is a “fix your mechanics so you can’t hurt the Major League club under a less-pressurized situation so no one can bother you while working with the most influential coach in your career” move.
What would be the benefit of telling Francoeur in advance that they’re thinking about sending him to the minors for awhile? So he can press even more? Right, good idea. And what’s all this “give Frenchy the respect he deserves” mentality? This is a 24 year old in his third year in the Majors – not exactly a proven respected veteran with potential Hall of Fame numbers that was disrespected. Sure, he’s got that “The Future” tagline attached to him, but he hasn’t lived up to it yet. Why treat him like he has, when he’s been struggling mightily.
The biggest problem I have with Francoeur is the selfishness. He continues to try to pull the ball, even during a tie game with the winning run on second base with no outs. Move him over. He’s cost the Braves a ton of games already with his selfish approach. It’s sickening to think how many RBIs he could have had, even if he just put the ball in play.
Francoeur needed a fresh start. He needed a wake up call. He needed to learn to be more team oriented and not try to live up to all the “hype.” Just like Chipper Jones said, “This game will humble you.”
Nice perspective.
"Have you ever had your heart broken?"
"Yeah, when we lost the pennant in '87."
by jug on Jul 7, 2008 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Word.
I'm gettin' out of this town alive...even if it kills me.
by Smoltz's Beard on Jul 7, 2008 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
“We all know that Frenchy is a free swinger—that’s why some of his love him, but it is also one of his flaws.”
No one should praise free swinging. If they’re successful free swinging, let them do it. If not, then make them learn. I can only think of a few free swingers who are good baseball players. Tejeda cames to mind. Vlad too, but he can still take a walk. Soriano. Patient hitters, I can think of a ton. Heap, Chipper, Tex, KJ, Pujols, Hanley Ramirez, Cabrera, Wright, Utley, Berkman, Bonds, Helton, etc, etc, etc. The latter also age much better.
It’s just so much better to be a patient hitter with pitch recognition and plate discipline. That’s always been Francoeur’s problem. I’m stating the obivous, but until he fixes that, he will be bad because curveballs in the dirt and fastballs shoulder high will eat him up.
“The right thing to do would have been to continue to let Francoeur work out his problems in Atlanta. He’s a major leaguer and that’s what they’re expected to do.”
Then we should have done the same with Thorman because that’s exactly what Francoeur looks like right now. The only difference is that Thorman gives you more SO and less GIDP.
I don’t buy the “we don’t have better options.”
Blanco, Kotsay, Norton, Infante > Francoeur
Pick 3 for your outfield (assuming they’re healthy). Perry and BJones deserve a chance because the worst they can do is give you Francoeur’s current production.
beeniez did a great job of summing it up:
“This is a "fix your mechanics so you can’t hurt the Major League club under a less-pressurized situation so no one can bother you while working with the most influential coach in your career" move.”
Francoeur needs to (re)learn how to hit. He was called up too soon and until he learns how to hit the right way, all his talent is going to waste. I don’t want to punish and embarrass him. I want to see him succeed just like everyone else and this gives him a chance.
Oh, and I really hate the double standard Francoeur gets since he’s back up already. Kelly Johnson seems to get platooned every time his BA falls below .280 even if his OBP is .350-.370. If KJ was anywhere near Francoeur’s production, people would be asking him to be DFA’d or something. The guy is treated like the red headed step-child of the Braves even though he’s a top hitting 2B with average defense.
He wouldn't have been..
..recalled if it hadn’t been for an injury. When a player is optioned to the minors, he has to stay there for at the minimum of 10 days before being recalled – unless he’s replacing an injured player on the ML Roster. I’m not defending the move for sure, he should still be in Mississippi as far as I’m concerned. But the Braves got around the rule..by using it to their advantage.
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