The Untouchables

by gondeee on Jun 30, 2008 7:01 AM EDT in News Comment 41 comments

If indeed the rest of the NL East continues to allow us to stay in the division race, and Frank Wren and company decide to go out and pick up what the Braves need most at the trade deadline (an impact bat), who will we have available to trade. Better yet, which of our young players would we be willing to part with? After all, this is the all or nothing year for the Braves, with key veteran players like Smoltz, Glavine, Teixeira, and Kotsay likely exiting this off-season.

The Braves know that in the coming years they need to rebuild their starting pitching, and for the Braves that generally starts on the farm. The biggest up and comer for Atlanta is Tommy Hanson, who recently threw a 14-strikeout no-hitter at double-A, and might be ready to make his major league debut as early as this season. Regardless of when he debuts he will likely be one of the young pitchers the Braves call on to rebuild their rotation and he should be a solid contributor by late 2009. With what his upside looks like, I say Tommy Hanson is untouchable.

What about the pitchers who are already in the majors? With the way Jair Jurrjens has pitched this year mark him down as untouchable. How about Jo-Jo Reyes and Charlie Morton? My guess is that the Braves would be willing to part with one, but not both of those guys, for the right return. A less attractive but tradable pitcher is Chuck James, who is proving to be more of a four-A player as he has put up a 1.69 ERA in nine games spanning 48 innings for Richmond without allowing a homerun; this after giving up seven homers in just 23 major league innings this year (and a whopping 32 homeruns in 161.1 major league innings last year). Still, James’ good work at Richmond could make him attractive to several teams.

I would venture a guess that every other pitcher in the Braves organization not named Teheran is available; even Cole Rohrbough and Jeff Locke – though the return on those two guys would have to be significant.

As for position player prospects that might be available the list may be even greater and the untouchable list shorter. First up is Jason Heyward, who is probably the most untouchable prospect in the Braves organization. Much like the Braves would likely only trade one of either Morton or Reyes, they would likely also listen in on either Jordan Schafer or Gorkys Hernandez, but not both. Many Braves fans are going ga-ga for Gorkys, but he might be the most tradable prospect in our minor league system, and with Schafer already ahead of him on the center field depth chart, Wren may be getting the most offers for the talented young center fielder. Apparently after we acquired him this past off-season several teams inquired immediately as to his availability. Gorkys is probably the prospect the Braves would prefer to trade at the deadline as he doesn’t deplete their pitching depth and plays at a position of organizational depth.

Another player position combo which the Braves could move one of two guys is at shortstop with either Yunel Escobar or Brent Lillibridge being possibly made available. While Escobar has made a big impact in the majors, the presence of Lillibridge, who has only to be given playing time to prove he can hit in the majors, means that Yunel could be swapped for more power or a better combination of speed and power bats. Odds are that Escobar will not be the one moved, but recent youthful attitude outbursts may loosen the Braves’ feelings on his possible previous untouchable status.

To recap, my list of the only untouchable players in the Braves system are as follows:
Jair Jurrjens
Jason Heyward
Tommy Hanson
Julio Teheran

… and of course the major league core of McCann, Chipper, and Hudson. Everyone else, in my opinion, is available… for the right return.

The way the Braves are playing from one day to the next seems to change the argument as to whether we should be sellers or buyers as the trade deadline nears. I’ve already made the argument that we are well positioned to be sellers and get a high return on several of our veterans free agents, but the exact opposite is also true. If we choose to be buyers at the trade deadline then once again our farm system has put us in a good position to make some moves to help us acquire the player or players we need. The depth of that farm system has also made it so that there are very few untouchable player and prospects.

In the comments let me know who you think our untouchable players are.

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Utouchables: Hanson, Jurrjens, Reyes, Heyward, Flowers

To me, that’s it. I just don’t see Teheran as untouchable yet – history shows that we were willing to part with a hot young arm (Neftali Feliz) early on, so I bet we’d do the same with Julio. I think Jo Jo is proving himself lately. Morton might be really good, but he’s a righty, so I’d keep Reyes over Morton (if that was the choice, and here I’m acting like it is). If I assume one of our farm guys eventually fills that 5th spot (Teheran, Locke, etc.), then the untouchables make a good looking rotation for the post Smoltz-Hudson era (not ERA).

I completely agree about Gorkys and Schafer being kind of interchangeable. When the Braves got Gorkys, I felt like he was a throw in, albeit a very good one. We didn’t really need him, but I thought he would a) give us a great trading piece if he develops well, and b) give us insurance on Schafer and even light a fire under Jordan to step up his game. Well, the suspension, in my mind, puts them on an even playing field now. Do we want Schafer and his past? I still give the nod to him over Gorkys, but I think the organization might be comfortable with Gorkys if that’s the way they go.

But this begins to beg the question of who is on first (and third for that matter). Your post didn’t address the possibility of losing Teixeria, which I absolutely think we will – he doesn’t say the things I’d like to hear, maybe how he’d love to stay in Atlanta for the rest of his career – stuff like that. So I think he’s gone. Which brings me to my added guy, Tyler Flowers. I know people here (even myself) have thrown around the idea of moving Heyward to 1st, or even Cody Johnson, but I think our future there (as of now) might be Tyler Flowers. With Ka’aihue’s inconsistency and McCann’s contract, I bet Flowers gets to see more time at 1st when he gets to AA. All of this assumes, of course, that we don’t sign Tex. And what about Freddie Freeman? Well, I don’t know. Let him create a log jam at first, and we’ll deal with that then. I’d say move him to third, but he doesn’t look like he’d have the range to play third – he’s a BIG, lanky guy. He’s very good defensively at first, but I don’t know how he’d do at third. But anyway, I think we have a home grown replacement for Tex at first in Flowers, so he makes my list.

And then third base – the biggest hole in our system, in my opinion. I don’t think Lillibridge or even Prado are the long term answers there. I also don’t know about Van Pope’s bat or Eric Campbell’s attitude either – and I mean long term, next 15-20 years. Adam Coe? No. Maybe Jon Gilmore, but he’s back at Danville after a horrible start in Rome. (He’s doing well, though, and I don’t suggest giving up on him….) I’ve said I think Brandon Hicks will be the man, but I wouldn’t make him untouchable because he does have some question marks (mainly strikeouts). Freeman? Who knows.

Of the major leaguers, I agree with McCann, Chipper, and Hudson, but I also put Frenchy on that list. I still have faith in his ability and his character, so I’d keep him. I know character doesn’t win ballgames, but it’s an important bonus in my opinion. I’m beginning to wonder if Escobar’s attitude is becoming a problem. I don’t know…..he may be untouchable. Maybe.

That’s it!

by secondbass on Jun 30, 2008 8:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Good stuff...

...although I find it interesting that you’re willing to over-look FYF’s shitty approach this season because he is a nice guy, while it seems like you’re willing to let Escobar go because of his temper. I personally am in the opposite camp. Escobar plays a much more demanding position, has the ability of getting on base, and has a higher SLG than FYF at this point in the season. I think we can all agree that Yunel is not a superstar SS (yet?), and that is the only type of SS that should ever out-OPS a RF…but that’s what is happening. Yunel and his .770 OPS vs. Francoeur and his .684 OPS. And if you believe in the WARP statistic (Wins Above Replacement Player), Yunel is crushing Francoeur there as well…3.7 to 0.7. So despite his temper, he’s given the Braves 3 more wins on the year than Frenchy.

Prado and Lillibridge at 3B is not the answer in the long term at all. At 3B we need someone who has some power, and neither of them qualify. I’m not up to date on many of the other possibilities in the minors, but once Chipper leaves that will be a major hole.

I'm gettin' out of this town alive...even if it kills me.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jun 30, 2008 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well

My opinion is that attitude is infectious. I believe Frenchy has the ability to overcome this mess he’s in – looking at his improvement from 2006 to 2007 is proof enough for me. If he plays up to his ‘potential’ on a consistent basis, then we’re in business. I am an admitted Jeff Francoeur fan, so I am biased, but I think I’m making a logical case (?). The Braves have a history of going for quality individuals, and there’s a reason for that. I’m not saying they have a team full of nice guys who are good role models, nor do I think that’s a realistic requirement of a player. BUT, it’s nice to go to the game and support Francoeur, McCann, Smoltz, Hudson, Glavine, Andruw Jones (Gold Club and all!), Murphy, Aaron. Those types of personalities are good for the community as well as the clubhouse.
Having said all that, if I’m the GM, I’d give Francoeur some time to work himself out of it. If by, say, the middle of next season he’s still hitting .240 with terrible numbers, I’d have no problem shipping him out and preparing the way for Jason Heyward.

As for Escobar, I don’t really know about his attitude. He’s got a reputation attached to him from his minor league days, and there seems to be a question lately about attitude rumbling around. Who knows? I love the way he plays – I love it that he’ll swipe 2nd when everybody is standing around going to sleep. I do think he’s asking for a plunking when he leaps around in the on deck circle or flips the bat, but maybe those things will work themselves out. Like I said, maybe he is an untouchable, but if attitude is an issue, I say not, but that’s me placing an importance on character. But it’s all speculation really.

by secondbass on Jun 30, 2008 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fair enough. You obviously place more emphasis on “attitude” than I do. Guys like Milton Bradley get branded with the “troubled player” tag and alot of fans aren’t going to like him. But there comes a point where a guy with a bad attitude is OPSing 1.056, like Bradley this year, and you just have to suck it up and want the guy on your team. Especially when the team does not have the luxury of picking and chosing who they play, just like the Braves. Our team OPS at each OF position is:

LF: .683, 24th in MLB
CF: .767, 11th in MLB
RF: .677, 27th in MLB

That is awful. No other way to put it. XBHs aren’t any better.

LF: 23, 26th in MLB
CF: 20, 25th in MLB
RF: 29, 19th in MLB

Once again…horrific. These are spots where we’re supposed to be getting major power from, and when Chipper is out of the lineup it makes for a very weak hitting ballclub. We cannot afford to worry about Escobar’s attitude when he’s one of the only consistent players we have.

You’re not going to have a team of all saints, and just because a guy is nice does not mean he should get carte blanche when it comes to his performance. If FYF has not made any improvements by the end of this season I’m off his bandwagon for good.

I'm gettin' out of this town alive...even if it kills me.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jun 30, 2008 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Imagine if you were an A's fan

Billy Beane would have you hired by now, in some capacity.

I like the Braves “way” of running a team, and as much as they try to have squads of all saints every year, sometimes it’s not always possible, and I agree that sometimes, certain aspects of a player’s ability are worth overlooking a Tourette’s mouth. The one thing mentioned below that I will pull from, is the truth in the matter that without TBS, the Braves aren’t “America’s Team” anymore, so the requirement for such a squeaky clean image doesn’t need to be so tight like it used to be.

I’m not saying that we need to rush out and get Bonds and Dickhead, but we also don’t need to be so anal retentive that every player needs to be competing for the Roberto Clemente award every year. In regards to Escobar, some see “Cuban,” some see attitude, but I see a passion for the game that is pretty refreshing. I’ll admit too, I get a little kick out of seeing Francoeur barking at Ramon Ortiz when plunked, and when Chuck James got flustered and whizzed a close shave past Oliver Perez’s face…

It’s all about compromise – and honestly, as long as it equates to some Pujols damn wins, I’m almost indifferent to anything.

No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.

by royhobbs on Jun 30, 2008 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Escobar...

He has to be untouchable, or at least close. Escobar is a great player and his numbers are some of our best on the team. If we switch Escobar for players in order to move Lillibridge in, I’m going to flip my ess.

What a terrible idea. We mortgage our future for 10 weeks of getting a power hitter who we won’t resign or we might have 1 more year of? What a terrible idea.

Mark my words, if we trade Escobar, we may as well quit.

by iLukeisamazing on Jun 30, 2008 9:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

More Escobar

Anyone else remember allegations that Escobar was “too Cuban?” Stuff like his hot-temper, and the bat-flips, and so forth. My take? Let him be who he is – make suggestions, hope he understands them, but don’t try to change him. Bat-flipping is huge internationally, as much as people balk over Escobar doing it, nobody seems to notice when Fukudome does it. Hideki Matsui used to do it, but he’s long since conformed to the Yankee way.

Anyone else suspect the departure of Peña has anything to do with Escobar’s lapses in rationality?

No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.

by royhobbs on Jun 30, 2008 10:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Mentor...

I’m not saying that Bryan Pena was as much of a baseball mentor to Yunel…but based on their long time friendship he probably was a cultural and MLB mentor/sounding board. I am not convinced quite yet that Escobar’s is gainiing bad rep in the game, nor do I pretend to understand the current dugout/clubhouse atmosphere. But if we’ve noticed his recent volatility, and obviously Bobby making the U-turn (and I don’t recall him jogging out ) to save Yunel…you know the insiders have noticed it too. How many times have we seen the great international players bond with a coach/manager/player…I think Yunel needs that at this stage.

by OntheGo on Jun 30, 2008 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Guidance

He just needs some guidance. Last year, he had Andruw, Renteria, Peña, and Cadahia nurturing his development, all of them being Spanish speaking teammates. This year, all are gone, except for Cadahia, and he’s not a player. Renteria was probably the best skill mentor a guy like Escobar could ask for, and based on the SI story a few months ago, Peña was the big brother he clearly needed to adapt in the country. He has neither anymore right now – it’s gotta be frustrating to him, and most of us should be able to understand that.

No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.

by royhobbs on Jun 30, 2008 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

"all or nothing year" attitude leads to a nothing decade

“After all, this is the all or nothing year for the Braves, with key veteran players like Smoltz, Glavine, Teixeira, and Kotsay likely exiting this off-season.”

Utter insanity. This kind of short term thinking that has had the Braves slowly slipping down for a decade. It typifies the instant gratification mentality that dooms everyone from horny teenagers to corporate execs fixated on quarterly profits.

Smoltz is already gone, Glavine and Kotsay were a waste of draft choices and young talent, and are now marginal contributors. If Teixeira is unwilling to extend - and we should determine this by the trade deadline - maybe we should deal him to an AL club with the funds to keeps him, for a package of their young talent and to keep him out of our division. The Braves don’t deserve to win this year, but they could win next year or the year after at the rate our young talent is coming along.

We can hold on to all of our best young talent, and over the next few years learn which among them will contribute to future championship clubs. In an era of escalating player salaries this is the ONLY way for the Braves to compete. We are off TBS and no longer have a national advertising base, hence we are now a middle market team with middle market budgetary expectations. Get used to it, and do what the Rays, Marlins etc. have proven is possible in recent years—sacrifice an unworthy present for a promising future.

by JimK on Jun 30, 2008 11:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Slowly slipping for a decade? The team that I’ve been watching came in first place in the NL East as recently as two years ago. The fact that the Braves lost 4 straight NLDS series is hardly the fault of their short term thinking. And comparing the Braves to the Marlins and Rays is stupid. Our payroll is far more than both of those teams combined, and the reason they “sacrifice” the present is because they have no other option. We have the option to sign the free agents that true middle and low market teams cannot…some signings work, others don’t.

You bash the Glavine and Kotsay signing after the fact (both of whom were doing exactly what we got them for before getting hurt), yet you mention nothing about the Ohman/Infante deal or the trades that brought over Soriano and Gonzalez. Judging by the fact that you’ve made 2 comments on this board in the recent months I’d say you’re just another bitter fan who waited until the times are tough to come on here and act like you had the foresight and clairvoyance all along.

I'm gettin' out of this town alive...even if it kills me.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jun 30, 2008 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and considering the best braves team was in 2003, this can probably be debated, but it was clearly the best offensive team, and that was 5 years ago its hard to say this team has been slipping for 10 years

by Swo12bv on Jun 30, 2008 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've been saying this for a long time.

I questioned giving draft choices for Glavine on this board, and I opposed Devine for Kotsay. I don’t keep track of my posts but there have been many, and my theme is consistent: build for the future with young arms. The JD Drew catastrophe illustrates why we can’t deal talented ptiching for rentals. Adam Wainwright has already thrown the final pitch in a WS. We didn’t make it to the WS during the year of the Drew rental. The Mike Hampton transaction was another disaster, instant help for 2003, still paying five years later. Short term thinking.

We have been in steady decline since 1999. We have not played in the WS in this decade. First we failed to win the pennant, then we failed to make the LCS, then we were first round fodder, and for the last couple of years we’ve been also-rans. That’s a steady decline.

The Gonzalez and Soriano deals were the right idea: mediocrities traded for power arms. But there’s a declining market for mediocrities, and that’s not the kind of trade proposed above. He’s talking about trading genuine prospects like Jo Jo Reyes and Gorkys Hernandez. We should be patient with these kids as we were in 1988 when Glavine was 7-17 and Smoltz 2-7.

As for the Braves’ payroll, most of it is on the disabled list. Chipper and Smoltz make reasonable amounts for their talents but if you’re going to carry superstars deep into their careers, the rest of the roster is going to require tight budgetary discipline, i.e. a farm system. The Braves used to be in the top 2-3 clubs in payroll, but consider their effective payroll today, counting Hampton as a big zero, and Glavine as not much more. Maybe it’s not right to compare us with the Rays. We’re not the ones signing Evan Longoria to a long term deal.

by JimK on Jun 30, 2008 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

1991: 94 wins
1992: 98 wins
1993: 104 wins
1995: 90 wins
1996: 96 wins
1997: 101 wins
1998: 106 wins
1999: 103 wins
2000: 95 wins
2001: 88 wins
2002: 101 wins
2003: 101 wins
2004: 96 wins
2005: 90 wins

Once again…please enlighten me as to how the Braves have been on a decade long decline when they’ve topped 90 wins 5 times since 2000 and 100 wins twice. You bring up our early exits in the postseason, again, but as I said before this is hardly the fault of short-term thinking. And personally, I believe that short-term thinking probably would have helped us more during those series. It’s nice to have a couple hot prospects on the farm, but perhaps if we had traded them for another starter, power bat, bullpen piece, etc. we would have another championship to throw in the faces of Mets fans everywhere.

I was behind the Glavine signing and up until he was injured he was providing exactly what I expected him to. I was against the Kotsay trade, but when he was healthy he was performing better than I expected and it looked like a solid trade for both teams. I understand what your theme is and I agree with it, but eventually you have to stop building for the future. At some point you have to take the team you’ve built and plug in the “veteran players”. The Braves attempted that this season and I don’t fault them for it. I fully expect another 2 season of .500 baseball now, and I was willing to accept that if it gave us a chance at another WS. Wren built a good team, but players have been under-performing or injured…that’s hardly his fault. You make it seem like it’s a black and white story, when baseball is not that simple.

I won’t even address the Wainwright/Drew deal, because it’s obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about. We traded a prospect in the minor, who had no major league experience, for a guy who gave us an OPS of 1.006 in RF. You’re complaining about that? He had the 9th best OPS in the majors that year! And to get him we traded a guy who had worse minor league numbers than Chuck James. Wainwright hit, James missed, shit happens. And who gives a shit that Wainwright closed out a WS game? He gave the Cardinals 75 innings of above average bullpen work, but it’s not like he was a key cog in their machine that year. It could have very easily been any other reliever in their stable, Adam was just in the right place at the right time. It must be really hard pointing out the short comings of a front office in hindsight, huh?

And what does signing Evan Longoria have anything to do about what we’re talking about? The Rays have been terrible for years which has resulted in high draft picks, and somehow this is the Braves front office’s fault that they can’t sign Longoria? I guess it’s not enough for you that our front office got a major steal in Heyward…

I'm gettin' out of this town alive...even if it kills me.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jun 30, 2008 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

how long have you been a Braves fan:?

Me: 1958. I’ve been through decades of misery and one good run which peaked in 1995. It’s all about winning the World Series, or at least getting there as we did four times in the 1990s. What got us to that peak was player development and long term thinking in the late 1980s.

Wainwright was known as our top prospect at the time of his deal. I let out a loud moan in my car when I heard it on the radio. It was prototypical short term thinking, and for the rest of his major league career the Braves will pay the opportunity cost of the Drew deal. The Braves need to think beyond the short term if they’re going to rebuild the essence of a dynasty.

The point of Longoria is that the Rays are no longer impoverished wannabees. For a team of moderate means, the next step after developing your own stars is to keep them around within budgetary limits. The Rays are clearly off the floor now, doing with Longoria what we did with McCann.

Right now we need to give Jurrjens, Reyes, Morton, and Campillo the time and ML starts to develop. We need to hold on to our top SP prospects until we know all their ceilings. Right now our young starters have high value:cost ratios.. Guys like Heyward, Escobar, Lillibridge, Gorkys, Schafer, and maybe Blanco, Freeman and a few others could all be long term bargains if we keep them around, too. These guys are the next core. How fast this large group develops will determine how many postseasons remain for Chipper, and whether Brian McCann will see a World Series.

Talent which hasn’t convinced me includes Chuck James (too many fly balls for this era and key parks like Philly), Acosta, Boyer (although he looked good Sunday), Prado, Diaz, Brandon Jones, Norton, Bennett and Gotay. But I doubt if those fellows are going to fetch even a tainted top prospect like Homer Bailey. They want to deal some of that bunch for a reasonably priced left fielder, fine.

But honestly our best chance of backing into a playoff spot this year would likely come from rapid development of our young starters and/or medical miracles for Chipper, Soriano and Hampton. It won’t come from trading away our future. Again.

by JimK on Jun 30, 2008 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lame.

Wow…you certainly got me there with the fact that you were born before me. I guess that’s really what’s important when conversing about baseball strategy.

You’re obviously one of those fans that’s been around for a long time, so you’re steadfast in your beliefs and when a younger fan like myself comes around you automatically think that you’re entitled to some sort of superiority just because you’ve “been through decades of misery”. It might be good for you to take a step back and look at the game differently.

If you think that getting to the world series is really all that matters you’re a blind fan indeed. To speak ill of a team that made the playoffs 6 times since 2000 is insane. It’s all about putting the product out on the field and getting to the playoffs, which the Braves have done pretty much every year up until recently. Winning in the playoffs has nothing to do with short or long term thinking…it’s about who’s hot at the time and a little bit of luck.

I'm gettin' out of this town alive...even if it kills me.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jul 1, 2008 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Heyward, Gorky's, Schafer, Hanson.

They are all untouchable as far as I am concerned. The way that we have played this year, and the way we played last year after adding a huge peice in Tex that did everything he could to lead us to the playoffs leads me to say that we should stand pat. We should live with what we have, hope that we can have a healthy chipper for half number 2, and start getting others guys healthy to make a run. I just dont want to see us go after a rental player. I would love to go after a guy like Rivera of the Angels who is surplus for them, wouldnt cost one of our major prospects, and has pop from the right side. But to go after a guy like Holliday not that they were rumored to be interested, or a guy like that at the expense of our young pitching would be a mistake when this team has been so incredibly inconsistent.

by gopherbroke on Jun 30, 2008 11:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Escobar, Mac, Huddy, Jurrjens

shop everyone else. FYF wont get us much in return, i like our chances with waiting him out. If the contractual stuff can be behind his mind, he can get better, and some time in the minors should help with that. I think he has great stuff somewhere in him, and obvisouly i’m pissed at him, but too early to shop him off.

Escobar’s attitude will help at times. Ok, so he throws a tantrum at first, he’ll get beaned sometimes, and he’ll be loud and maybe angry, but what about those times he gets a rally going? I think his attitude can eventually be funneled into enthusiasm and vigor.

Huddy, duh. Jurrjens, double duh. Mac, triple duh, and i think we ought to lock him up LOOOOOONG term, maybe see if he’ll add some ensured coaching years, scouting reports, minor league tending, whatever, this dude is going to be a part of the Braves career-long and further.

All those young players are too much for me to keep track of. Gorkys seems exciting and has great potential. Lilli is good and all, but is he going to step up and be a Big Show everyday player? Anderson, Heyward, Schafer, Hanson, Rohrbaugh, etc., all those dudes can be shopped for all i care – I trust Wren.

by traphicg on Jun 30, 2008 11:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

We need to keep Heyward. He’s been listed in the small circle of top minor league players even though he is still 18. Schafer, Hanson, and Rohrbaugh (from what I hear) seem like we should keep them as well. Anderson is expendable.

I'm gettin' out of this town alive...even if it kills me.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jun 30, 2008 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i dont think ur saying we should trade all those guys, but if u are im sure glad ur not our GM. We would haev no future to speak of. I agree with the philosophy that we need to keep McCann, Chipper, and Huddy. I think Yunel is expendible for the right guy, becuase i think Lilli can step in and do similar and hopfully make our team better by the acquiring a player for Yunel. we can’t trade Heyward, or Hnason. and i wouldnt want to trade both Schafer and Gorkys

by Swo12bv on Jun 30, 2008 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i thought I cleared myself

I was mainly just trying to say that I dont know enough about all those minor leaguers. I think though, that if Wren is going to shop them, he’ll get what we need for them. Now that i remember more about some, I think Heyward and Schafer should most likely stay.

My post was more focused on Yunie and Frenchy.

Thanks for being so polite Beard. I coulda felt the wrath but I was spared.

by traphicg on Jun 30, 2008 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I’m not very up to date on our minor leaguers either. The information I have on them is either from BP or this website.

I’m with you on Escobar. But I just don’t know how much longer we can “wait out” in regards of FYF. Of all major league OFers that qualify he’s got the 4th worst OBP to go along with the 7th most ABs. We can’t afford to give away that number of outs.

I'm gettin' out of this town alive...even if it kills me.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jun 30, 2008 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Untouchable: Anyone on the 25-man Roster, Hanson, Heyward, Schafer

I threw out a pretty big one there with my first one, which obviously relates more to our three young SP then to say, Greg Norton. Jurrjens is appearantly the real deal. A front-end guy, pitches to contact, goes deep into games, great composure, and only 22. Reyes is still inconsistant, you never know if he’ll throw a gem or a stinker, but we’re getting more and more of the gems. Now on to Morton. Remember a few years back when we traded a good young pitcher by the name of Adam Wainwright? Well Braves fans have complained about what could have been since that point and now we may finally know. Charlie Morton = Adam Wainright v2.0. Same build, same kind of stuff, same kind of pitcher. Hanson I believe is the next true home-grown ace of the Braves staff. Heyward has great globs of talent anywhere that he might end up playing whether its RF, LF, or 1B. Schafer is still our future in CF in my opinion. When you look at him and Gorkys it all breaks down to a matter of tastes. Schafer profiles to be a Grady Sizemore-type player and Gorkys profiles to be Kenny Lofton-like. Its a matter of personal opinion, but I like Schafer.

by bravesfan91 on Jun 30, 2008 12:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Of the two CFers I would prefer Schafer for the future.

I'm gettin' out of this town alive...even if it kills me.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jun 30, 2008 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

As would I. Schafer has more power, better defense and in my opinion a better baseball mind. He could hit anywhere in the line-up with the exception of cleanup and produce to our standards. Gorkys would pretty much be that blazing fast leadoff man we’ve lacked since Furcal, but I’ll take the anywhere producer over the guy who can only bat lead-off anyday

by bravesfan91 on Jun 30, 2008 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not a chance in hell I’d move Escobar with the thought of promoting Lillibridge to SS. The kid is totally overmatched by major league pitching. It would a major step back for us at SS. I would not be willing to move Reyes either. Without him we have no leftys in the rotation (Glav and Hampton don’t count).

by dwbrave on Jun 30, 2008 1:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Eliot Ness

Untouchable.

"Have you ever had your heart broken?"
"Yeah, when we lost the pennant in '87."

by jug on Jun 30, 2008 1:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Now let me welcome everybody to the wild, wild west
A state that’s untouchable like Elliot Ness
The track hits ya eardrum like a slug to ya chest
Pack a vest for your Jimmy in the city of sex

/dre

I'm gettin' out of this town alive...even if it kills me.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jun 30, 2008 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yunel is not untouchable?

Because of his attitude problems? Has he said anything negative about his team, his manager, or how the team is playing that implies negativity? I certainly don’t recall reading such things so I don’t know where all this hoopla is coming from. Yunel is our best pure hitter after Mac. His ability to hit the baseball to right and right center on a consistent basis is uncanny and irreplaceable imo.

So to say either Yunel or Lillibridge could be traded just doesn’t make sense. Yunel is a franchise type player and Lillibridge is just an overrated shortstop that I just don’t see getting us much, if anything good in return.

by ChipperTeixeira89 on Jun 30, 2008 2:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I’m assuming you just left him out b/c it’s common knowledge, but our best pure hitter is certainly Chipper. I heard one talking head say that coming into the season Chipper is the 2nd best hitter at an infield position after none other than Pujols.

I’d venture to agree with that.

I'm gettin' out of this town alive...even if it kills me.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jun 30, 2008 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

best pure YOUNG hitter after Mac

That’s what I meant to say, sorry for the confusion.

by ChipperTeixeira89 on Jun 30, 2008 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ha, no worries.

I'm gettin' out of this town alive...even if it kills me.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jun 30, 2008 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No Such Thing.

No one should ever be labeled untouchable. Many would now consider Edinson Volquez and Josh Hamilton untouchable, but they were traded for each other with much success this offseason. You have to be able to take chances (Garza-Young, Danks-McCarthy, Marte-Rents, etc.) because, if you do your homework, things can work out just right.

Please check out my blog at http://thefulldeck.blogspot.com/ , now redesigned and recommited!

by ejruiz on Jun 30, 2008 3:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I think the reason why the Volquez/Hamilton trade happened was b/c neither had done anything to merit the “untouchable” label. Both had the talent in excess:

Hamilton had a killer 2nd half of last year, but the drug problems left many people wondering if he could 1) Physically play a full season and 2) Say goodbye to the white lady.

Volquez had good stats in the minors, but nothing that would indicate he would dominate at the level he has so far. He started off the year in advanced A and was horrible to the tune of 0-4, 7.13 ERA, 1.33 WHIP, 38/20 K/BB in 35.1 IP. He ended the year in AAA and was unreal to the tune of 6-1, 1.41 ERA, 0.90 WHIP, 66/21 K/BB in 51 IP. And in between he managed a 8-1 record in AA with a 3.55 ERA, 1.11 WHIP, 62/19 K/BB in 58.1 IP. It’ll be interesting to see how Dusty Baker manages Volquez once he hit the 145 IP mark, as that would be Volquez’s career high and Baker has a history or ruining young arms.

I'm gettin' out of this town alive...even if it kills me.

by Smoltz's Beard on Jun 30, 2008 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Volquez/Hamilton

Agreed. On all points.

With Baker as his manager, expect Volquez to go the way of Prior or (if he is lucky) Wood. Baker will go the route that Lasorda used to love and throw the kids arm out. I’ll never understand why the folks in the front offices of these teams let these things happen.

I will also be interested to see if Hamilton can keep up this torrid pace for the remainder of the season. I’m pulling for him (you have to admit it is a feel good story, and nice to see in the wake of steriods, HGH, et. al), but you have to figure there is a drop off at some point. Regardless, it will still be a statistically impressive season for him. Hopefully he keeps it up and isn’t just a one year wonder a la Cecil Fielder or Brady coughsteroidscough Anderson.

by supesk6 on Jun 30, 2008 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Francoeur?

Should we consider Francoeur untouchable because, who would want to touch him?

by skipcaray on Jun 30, 2008 7:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

In Case Anyone Just Can't Stand It

I posted the update I got off of Rome radio about Mike Hampton’s night.

Untouchables…. Jurrjens, Escobar, and I really don’t see a Frenchy trade happening. Not just because “who would want to touch him” but I don’t see the Braves giving up on him yet. I could be wrong.

JB in ATL
http://bravesblog.net

by JBinATL on Jun 30, 2008 8:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Heyward, Gorkys, Schafer, Mac, Escobar, Jurrgens, and Reyes

are the only young guys that should be untouchable. I dont believe NO minor league pitcher that we have should be untouchable. Those minor league pitchers have done NOTHING at the major league level. I like Hanson but if we could get a good young starter or LF for him that we could sign in an extension then I would trade Hanson in a heartbeat, as long as we could resign that dude.

Yeah lets trade Escobar for a LF or whatever and replace him with Lillibridge. hahah thats funny. Wasn’t Lillibridge barely hitting above the mendoza line in AAA? That would be a trade that we regret for YEARS. Jurrgens and Mac of course should not be traded. I really like what Reyes has done this year. If you ONLY look at the ERA and his W/L record then you would go well he has not been that great, but actually watching him pitch, he has been fantastic for the MOST part. No way we should trade Reyes. That would be KIND of defeating the purpose of trading Reyes for offense. It would be very short sited and flat out STUPID to do that.

I think Heyward at First, Gorkys in LF, Schafer in CF and Frenchy in RF would be very good. But if Frenchy continues to struggle by that time then Heyward at RF, Gorkys in LF, and Schafer in CF would be ONE hell of an outfield. I personally like Gorkys more than Schafer. And actually I think that Gorkys should be MORE compared to Carl Crawford, not Kenny Lofton. Now if we could get Jason Bay or somebody like that and we resigned him RIGHT away to a 5 year extension then FINE trade Schafer OR Gorkys and Hanson for him, but other than that it would just be stupid to trade Schafer OR Gorkys for anyone. If we trade either talent like that then we better have the guy for more than a year and a half thats for sure. Of course I do realize that Gorkys or Schafer could both be decent at best but they have ALOT of potential to be stars or at least very good players.

I just dont see how trading the future to get a guy for a few months is smart, especially the way this team has played, but whatever I guess.

braves#1

by rockybull on Jun 30, 2008 9:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs