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Yates Traded to Pirates

That's all the story that was just posted on AJC.com said:

The Braves have traded right-handed relief pitcher Tyler Yates to Pittsburgh.

Good.

I'll post more here as we learn what we got in return (if anything).

Update [2008-3-26 9:40:0 by gondeee]:

According to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette we swapped Yates for pitching prospect Todd Redmond.

He looks like an interesting middling starting pitching prospect. Over at Minor League Ball John Sickels gave him a grade of C this year, but last year he gave him a grade of C+ and ranked him as the seventh best prospect in the Pittsburgh organization (by the way, Lillibridge was ranked 3rd that year).

It looks like we got a young arm with decent to good upside. Nice trade if for no other reason than we were able to pare off Yates from the roster.

Here is a link to his minor league stats.

Update [2008-3-26 9:50:46 by gondeee]:

Baseball America rated him as having the best control in the Pirates organization. In 2007 they ranked him as the ninth best prospect in the Pirates system. This little tidbit is from a BA Pirates Organizational Report filed at the end of the 2006 season:

Todd Redmond has never drawn much notice during his two seasons in the Pirates farm system, but the righthander has put up outstanding numbers, including going 13-6, 2.75 in 27 starts for Hickory this year.

Redmond's showing in the South Atlantic League came after he led the New York-Penn League with a 1.98 ERA in 73 innings in 2005 for short-season Williamsport. Not bad for a 39th-round pick from St. Petersburg (Fla.) Community College in 2004 who was signed as a draft-and-follow.

Redmond, 21, throws a fastball, curveball and changeup. Though none are dominant pitches, he has outstanding command, carying a 148-33 strikeout-walk ratio in 160 innings this season.

We seem to have done a good job of snagging some good prospects from a Pirates organization that doesn't have many prospects. It looks like people soured on Redmond because he had an off-year last year. If he can rebound to his 05 or 06 numbers then we got a really nice young arm in return for a reliever we were probably going to release anyway.

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Stats...
not too bad.

Low A -- he had a 1.98 ERA in 72.2 IP;
A -- he had a 2.81 ERA in 160.1 IP;
High A -- he had a 4.54 ERA in 142.2 IP;
Double AA -- he had a 3.12 ERA in 17.1 IP.

Has a good Ks to IP at 7.28 and his WHIP (BB+HR per IP) is a pretty good 1.16.  

Not sure what to make of his time at Lynchburg.  I am going to check out the newspapers and see what the folks said about his time in High A.

by taney71 on Mar 26, 2008 9:43 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Interesting assessment of Redmond
Redmond, a 6-foot-3, 185-pounder out of St. Petersburg (Fla.) Community College, might be the most worth watching.

"He's definitely an interesting guy," said Brian Graham, the Pirates' senior director of player development. "His stuff is average, but his composure and competitiveness are above average. This guy has something special.

"He's like Charles Nagy. He has a knack for getting outs when he has to get outs."

Nagy, a mainstay in Cleveland's rotation in the 1990s, was 129-103 with a 4.51 earned run average.

"We think [Redmond's] a big-leaguer for sure," said Ed Creech, the Pirates' senior director of scouting. "Hitters don't see the ball real well out of his hand, and he's not afraid on the mound."

Link:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07154/791159-63.stm

by taney71 on Mar 26, 2008 9:48 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Even before...
his down year in High A ball a lot of Pittsburgh fans rated him as an average prospect.

For instance, I got a 2006 rating of Redman being the top "Average" prospect in their system.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5771

by taney71 on Mar 26, 2008 9:54 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

2007 Season in Review for Redmond
TODD REDMOND RHP
2007 SEASON HIGHLIGHTS
Rated by Baseball America as the Pirates' #9 prospect entering the season and as
having the "Best Changeup" in the system... Combined to go 8-13 with a 4.39 ERA
in 28 starts between Lynchburg (A) and Altoona... Made 25 starts for Lynchburg and
three spot starts for the Curve... Ranked 2nd among all Pirates' minor leaguers with
107 strikeouts in 160.0 innings of work... Spent most of the season with Lynchburg
(A), going 7-12 with a 4.54 ERA... Finished tied for the most losses in the Carolina
League (12)... Allowed just one hit over 7.0 scoreless innings to earn the win on 5/2
vs. Kinston (1 BB, 5 K)... Worked 6.0 scoreless frames to notch the victory on 5/30
vs. Frederick (7 H, 0 BB, 4 K)... Promoted to Altoona on 6/20 and made his first of
three spot starts for the Curve in game two of that night's doubleheader @ Erie --
received a no-decision in the Altoona's 4-3 loss in eight innings (5.0 IP, 4 H, 1 R, 1
BB, 2 K)... Returned to Lynchburg on 6/21 and went 2-4 with a 5.98 ERA (40.2 IP/
27 ER) in his next seven starts before returning to Altoona for his second start on
8/4... Earned his first Double-A win in a spot start vs. New Hampshire on 8/4,
allowing two runs on five hits with seven strikeouts over 6.1 innings of work...
Made a pair of starts for Lynchburg (8/9 @ Salem & 8/14 vs. Myrtle Beach) before
making his third Curve start in game two of the 8/18 doubleheader vs. Erie -- took
the loss after yielding three runs on six hits over 6.0 innings... Returned to
Lynchburg and lost each of his last three starts (4.05 ERA, 20.0 IP, 9 ER)... Overall,
dropped his final six decisions with the Hillcats (last win came on 7/14 @ Frederick)

Link:

http://mlntherawfeed.squarespace.com/minor-league-baseball/2007/10/3/altoona-curve-season-in-review- aa-eastern-league.html

by taney71 on Mar 26, 2008 9:57 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Meh. He has + command though.
"Todd Redmond had great numbers, but he was one of those guys who seemed like he was able to succeed at a low level due to maturity and polish without having plus stuff. His fastball is in the low 90s and he commands it well. The curve is decent, but the change is just not there yet."

by TradeAndruw on Mar 26, 2008 9:58 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, but
that quote was pre-2007 season. I would like to find someone who gives an assessment as to why Redman did poorly last year.

by taney71 on Mar 26, 2008 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The assessment you're looking for...
is pretty simple.  As previously mentioned, Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus did indeed rank Redmond fifth among Pirates prospects before the 2006 season.  However, he included the following caveat: "Question remains as the how well this style will work at the upper levels."  So what happened to him?  Well, he moved up to those dreaded upper levels.  The Braves have seen this same phenomenon, with young pitchers that look awesome at Danville and Rome and fail miserably upon reaching High-A at Myrtle Beach (see Stevens, Jake and Lyman, Jeff).

I seriously doubt Redmond is going to get anywhere near the majors unless he does a lot of improving in the next few years, and I'm sorry to see a solid middle reliever like Tyler Yates shipped off for a guy with a not-really-that-bright future.

by tgthree on Mar 26, 2008 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A "solid" middle reliever like Yates
Really?

I beg to differ, but perhaps I am using a distinct definition of the adjective "solid" in combination with the noun-formation of "middle reliever."

In my system of thinking, Tyler Yates is more "highly mediocre" than "solid."

---

An Open Letter

by jpx7 on Mar 26, 2008 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why was everyone so eager to deal Yates?
I just don't get it.  Throw out one bad appearance this spring (1/3 IP, 5 ER) and he's got a 3.52 ERA instead of a 9.00 ERA.  That's why spring stats can be so dangerous...the small sample size is really distorting.

Last year:
9.41 K/9, 3.14 UIBB/9, 1.26 GB/FB

Not to mention his HORRIBLE luck (.331 BABIP, 60.3% strand rate).  Why did everyone hate the man so much?  He's no setup man, but he's a solid and useful middleman.  Looking at the contracts being handed out to solid and useful middlemen these days, what are we doing trading one for the likes of Todd Redmond?

by tgthree on Mar 26, 2008 11:03 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That's...
..what I'm trying to figure out too. He lead the bullpen last year in gmLi meaning if it was high leverage - he was pitching. He was second in the bullpen in appearances as well.

by RainDelay on Mar 26, 2008 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bandwagoning....
... is how I explain it. Most casual baseball fans don't know how to look at the numbers and judge a player's value and so they draw conclusions based on a small sample of what they see on the field and what's being whispered by people in the "know" circles. Yates didn't have the best spring, he's out of options, and so the speculation starts to swirl and people hop on the bandwagons and just want to see him gone.

Yates was solid but mishandled in my opinion. He did have control problems but he also had some wicked stuff in his arsenal.

From a front-office standpoint, I see this is just moving a piece that you'd rather not lose to a waiver wire. With the return to form that Blaine Boyer has shown and the solid work Resop has been putting in, I think the Braves just saw Yates as the most movable piece and from that standpoint, I can't argue with the trade.

-sdp-

by sdp on Mar 26, 2008 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yates Trade
You're right, while it will be a forgettable tenure Yates had in Atlanta it's more about sending an out of options player to a team that probably had a spot for him for a player that is a minor leaguer with reportedly good control.

I don't see him as the miserable pitcher I wanted to run out on a rail as much as he is the one who didn't impress enough for a very competitive bullpen spot.

Otherwise we lose him to waivers and really get nothing in return.

http://bravesblog.net

JB in ATL

by JBinATL on Mar 26, 2008 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why was everyone so eager to deal Yates?
He is thirty years-old with a piss-poor walk-rate and very uninspiring career numbers; despite a solid K/9 and very good HR/9, I think - with his (lack of) control - that ~4.20 ERA was always going to be Yates' best-case production.

Plus, while his 2007 BAbip was fairly unlucky for the average major-league pitcher, it wasn't very far off of his personal career-averages.  With an odd-man to be singled out, Yates has less long-term appeal than Boyer and Resop, and all there were fairly fungible in the short-term (though I do feel Boyer and Resop are likely better relievers in 2008 as well).

by jpx7 on Mar 26, 2008 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

all three*
"all three* were fairly fungible in the short-term"

by jpx7 on Mar 26, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

All three?
Tell these guys about talc. It'll help.

by Euruproktos on Mar 26, 2008 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Take out the IBB...
and his walk rate is 3.14 per nine, far from piss-poor.  Uninspiring career numbers?  Maybe, but you really have to throw out 2004 because it was prior to his Tommy John surgery.  That goes for the BABIP too.

Boyer and Resop certainly have more long-term appeal but since when was this an either/or?  We could've carried all four of our out-of-options guys and not had to cut anybody or sell low.

by tgthree on Mar 26, 2008 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yates has always lacked control
"and his walk rate is 3.14 per nine, far from piss-poor."

Just in 2007; I am talking about his career.

"Uninspiring career numbers?"

I am also taking into account minor-league track records in my analysis.

"Boyer and Resop certainly have more long-term appeal but since when was this an either/or?"

It is an either/or situation because Cox will carry Manny Acosta on the 25-man roster to begin 2008 -- he has said as much, so it is virtually absolute.  With Acosta joining Soriano, Moylan, and Ohman as roster certainties, that left three spots for four players (3 RHPs, 1 LHP).

So, the decision became: either carry one left-handed relievers, or trade/lose (via waivers) one of the three right-handers.

The Braves chose to trade Yates rather than lose him for nothing, but - either way - had decided he was the odd-man.

---

An Open Letter

by jpx7 on Mar 26, 2008 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Minor-league numbers
Well, you really have to throw out his performance prior to 2006 because he had Tommy John surgery in 2005.  It's clear he's been a different pitcher since he returned, and he wouldn't be the first pitcher to see an extra couple MPH from TJ.  Hell, high school have started having the surgery even without being injured because the artificial ligament is stronger than the natural one.  Since he returned from the surgery, he's at 3.57 UIBB/9.  Not too shabby.  So leave off his '04 major-league numbers and his minors stats...if it isn't clear that he's been a totally different pitcher since surgery, I don't know what to do for you.

Also it's true that I am talking about what Cox SHOULD do rather than what he WILL do.  Acosta should go back to the minors to give us another month to avoid making a bad decision.

by tgthree on Mar 26, 2008 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nothing, I'd surmise
"So leave off his '04 major-league numbers and his minors stats...if it isn't clear that he's been a totally different pitcher since surgery, I don't know what to do for you."

Then I guess you don't know what to do with me, because I am not comfortable completely discounting a very large sample of data just because a player may have somehow benefited from a surgery.

Perhaps - if Yates' slight improvements in BB/9 and K/9 in 2007 are maintained in 2008, and are accompanied by about .020 better luck in BAbip - he can be a ~4.20 ERA reliever, which would be serviceable in middle-relief.  But the vast majority of his career does not give me faith that he can bring all these necessary components together for an entire season - even if I weight his three most recent seasons most heavily (and I do).

And, even if he were sustain improvements in all of these pitching dimensions, I don't think he could be called a "totally different pitcher" than he has been most of his career.  Instead, at such hypothetical time, I would simply say that Yates had made the necessary improvements amongst his weaknesses to parlay his strengths into material success.

by jpx7 on Mar 26, 2008 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are absolutely right...
...that we shouldn't have to discount Yates' numbers before his surgery.  My mistake.  Fortunately, it doesn't make that much of a difference.  He had a career K rate of 8.5 per nine in his career before surgery and he's been at 9.07 per nine after; the extra half-strikeout is not that much to attribute to the surgery.  His walk rate before was 4.18 per nine, and it has been 4.72 per nine since.  That might sound bad, but I have to compare apples to apples and I don't have intentional walk data for minor league seasons before 2005.  (His UIBB rate since surgery is 3.55 per nine).  Plus you make it sound like "somehow benefiting from a surgery" is some crackpot idea.  It's a proven fact that some pitchers come back throwing harder and feeling better than ever (see http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2003-07-28-cover-tommy-john_x.htm).  It's not unfeasible at all, and there's no reason not to HEAVILY discount his pre-2005 numbers, especially when he has performed up to a solid level for a large sample size (116 IP) since his return.

His FIP last year was 3.84 to give you an idea of what he could do with league-average luck.  Serviceable indeed, and these days there's plenty of value to serviceable relievers.  Just ask LaTroy Hawkins or J.C. Romero, who this winter signed contracts and are getting paid a fortune to be serviceable.

I don't know what you mean by "material success", but if you mean having a low ERA, then there's little any pitcher can do about that.  ERA involves a helluva lot of luck, and sometimes the batted balls are just gonna fall in.

by tgthree on Mar 26, 2008 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yates
"Plus you make it sound like "somehow benefiting from a surgery" is some crackpot idea."

I think you may have simply presumed I thought the idea was far-fetched; in fact, I only qualified the idea as being (a) currently ambiguous in the case of Tyler Yates, and (b) difficult to describe in terms of acute areas of improvement ("somehow").  My exact words were:

"I am not comfortable completely discounting a very large sample of data just because a player may have somehow benefited from a surgery."

"His FIP last year was 3.84 to give you an idea of what he could do with league-average luck."

I guess I question whether to believe Yates is the 3.84 FIP pitcher with a little bad-luck with BAbip (as in 2007), or to believe he is the 4.70 FIP pitcher with good luck on balls-in-play (.273 BAbip in 2006).  My fear, with respect to his future, is that he is likely somewhere in between - especially at age-30 - and hence will oscillate within the 4.20-4.80 ERA range.

"I don't know what you mean by "material success", but if you mean having a low ERA, then there's little any pitcher can do about that.  ERA involves a helluva lot of luck, and sometimes the batted balls are just gonna fall in."

I understand this point perfectly well; however, ERA does measure something, especially for starting pitchers, and especially in the aggregate and over a large sample-size.  For instance, if two pitchers throw 3000 innings, and one carries a 4.50 ERA over that span, while another carries a 3.50 ERA, earned-run-average is quantifiably-sound enough to justify a qualitative description: the pitcher with the 3.50 ERA was clearly the superior pitcher over the course of their respective careers.

(Of course, in less discrete cases, issues like park-effects, league-averages, and overall run-environments much be more prominently accounted -- such as in the qualitative distinction between a 3.50 ERA pitcher from the 1960s and a 3.60 ERA pitcher from the 1990s - but in those cases, ERA+, dips/FIP, et cetera once again become necessary and highly advantageous.)

In the specific case of Tyler Yates, however, I simply meant run-prevention in high-leverage games situations, which are frequent in the middle innings of games.  With relievers, ERA is further problematized by factors such as runs ascribed to the previous/relieved pitcher (mid-inning uses of relievers) and vastly smaller sample-sizes; hence, I will use OBP/SLG-against because it measures more directly the reliever's interactions with the batters faced (positive and negative), because it accounts for walks and extra-base hits, and because it is easily broken down into game-specific situations through interweb technology.

Employing such a heuristic, we find that Yates was worse in most higher-leverage situations in 2007:

.250/.353/.409 in "Late & Close" situations*
(106 PA)

.253/.354/.398 in +- 1 R situations
(100 PA)

.394.487/.667 in tie-game situations
(41 PA)

In 2007, Yates pitched through 294 total PA and produced a line of .251/.338/.400 for the opposition; his best game-specific situational category (besides >4 R) was +- 2 R, and his .241.340/.358 in those 163 PA certainly helped his overall numbers.

Perhaps, either way, the issue will be Cox's usage pattern - whether it be specific game-situations or frequency/days-of-rest.  And, while I very much appreciate your arguing against the premise of the decision, and not the reality of the decision, I think many are simply glad to see Yates depart because - by removing him from Cox's purview - we will no longer have to witness Yates struggle with run-prevention, even if he isn't the predominant source of culpability.

(The usage patterns of major-league managers are certainly highly impugnable: for instance, I'd prefer Cox use Soriano in instances of the highest potential leverage - regardless of inning or save-situation.  However, most managers are psychological uncomfortable with this conception of bullpen-usage; moreover, most elite-quality (or even above-average) relief pitchers would object to this usage model, because the "Save" statistic has such cachet and the accompanying fiscal benefit in contract negotiations: Cf. Francisco Cordero.)

*Baseball-Reference defines "Late & Close" as "PA in the 7th or later with the batting team tied, ahead by one, or the tying run at least on deck."

by jpx7 on Mar 27, 2008 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also, regarding the injury/improvement
Perhaps the same can be said for Chris Resop, per mlb.com:

"LAKE BUENA VISTA, Fla. -- When Chris Resop arrived at Spring Training, he still felt a little tentative about the fact that he was coming back from right elbow surgery. But six weeks later, the right-handed reliever finds himself with a high-velocity fastball and reason to feel confident that he'll be on the Braves' Opening Day roster.

'I definitely didn't expect my velocity to be where it's been,' said Resop, who was claimed off waivers from the Angels in October. 'It's higher now than it's ever been. I've always been a 93-95 [mph] guy, and for some reason this spring, I've been higher, a lot higher. I'll take it gladly.'"

Thus, even if your injury theory is correct, it may apply to both Yates and Resop; considering, Resop's superior track-record and the five-year age disparity benefiting Resop, it may not have been a mistake to stick with Resop if one of the two had to go.

---

An Open Letter

by jpx7 on Mar 27, 2008 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"If one of the two had to go..."
There's your "if" right there.  I personally don't see how it was one or the other.  I like Resop...a lot.  I think he's got some great stuff, and I look forward to having him on the team.  Wouldn't have cut him over Yates, period.  But I question the idea that one of the two did indeed have to go.

by tgthree on Mar 27, 2008 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yates
"But I question the idea that one of the two did indeed have to go."

And that is certainly a valid vector of questioning.

However, if one of them had to go (the assumption under which Cox/Wren seem to have been working), then I think Yates was the appropriate choice.

by jpx7 on Mar 27, 2008 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yates
The fact that we got a living, breathing human being for Tyler Yates is a plus. I don't care if it's a 41-year-old in rookie short season who was just arrested for public nudity, or Redmond.

by drdonkeypunch on Mar 26, 2008 11:03 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yates had almost no trade value
because we would have lost him on waivers anyway. We still have a few cards left to deal for a solid bench bat/backup IF. I'm looking in the general direction of Thorman and Pena.

by TradeAndruw on Mar 26, 2008 11:37 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i'll take it.
we got a RANKED prospect who has great control (typical braves pitcher) for a garbage reliever. i love it!!!

by bigjoe on Mar 26, 2008 12:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

yates
last season, K:BB was 2:1, way too low for a "fireballing reliever", ERA was over 5. everyone was so thrilled when we got rid of villarreal, when his numbers were BETTER than yates's. good riddance. give me blaine boyer any day of the week.

by bigjoe on Mar 26, 2008 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Logic doesn't make a lot of sense
  1. His K:BB was actually 3.00 once you take out the 8 walks that Bobby Cox ordered.
  2. And even if it was 2:1, perhaps you could tell Chad Cordero, Kevin Gregg, or Scot Shields that they can't succeed due to their K/BB ratios as well.
  3. ERA over five?  ERA is driven in large part by luck, and Yates had awful luck last year.  His FIP was 3.84.  Hopefully our scouting department can look past ERA to stats that really indicate talent.
  4. Villarreal 6.84 K/9, 2.83 UIBB/9
Yates 9.41 K/9, 3.14 UIBB/9
I'll take a K per inning, thankyouverramuch.

5) Give me Blaine Boyer over Yates any day of the week as well.  But since when could we only keep one or the other?

by tgthree on Mar 26, 2008 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

because
Resop = Yates but younger, cheaper, and probably with better control. So why keep the mediocre guy who was put it so many "big inning situations", and didn't do too hot?

Maybe if Yates hadn't gotten into messes, Bobby wouldn't have ordered all those extra walks. Ever think of that?

by bigjoe on Mar 26, 2008 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Resop = Yates?
What does it even mean if two relievers are equal?  Resop is indeed younger, he is indeed cheaper.  The better control thing is still up in the air, but even if Resop is better, Yates still isn't that bad.  Again, I don't know how you can say he "didn't do too hot".  His peripherals were solid on the year and he was doing just fine until the second half of the year, when overwork and bad luck hit Kali hard.  If you just want to look at his 5.18 ERA, I'm sorry.  There is so much more to pitcher evaluation these days than earned run average.

And yes, I did realize that Yates probably walked people a lot because he was in jams.  But separate your argument here.  If you're trying to say he has poor control (which you were trying to say by citing his walk rate), then throw out his IBBs because those have absolutely nothing to do with his command.  If you're trying to say he often had to intentionally walk hitters because he was always in jams, then perhaps you should consider that Jeremy Affeldt (3.51 ERA), Peter Moylan (1.80 ERA) and Matt Capps (2.28 ERA) all were among pitchers with more intentional walks per nine innings than Yates.

by tgthree on Mar 26, 2008 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

face it
would you really want to have tyler yates in your bullpen this year? i don't, i'm glad he's gone, hope he does terrible in pittsburgh. good riddance.

by bigjoe on Mar 26, 2008 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

K/BB
It doesn't matter what someone's K/BB/9 is if they don't give up runs. ERA may be luck, but I would rather find someone who tends to get lucky and isn't as good of a pitcher than wait around for Yates to figure out not to give up runs. I think most people are more worried about the fact that Yates gave up all of those runs went 4-8 in Atlanta while Villarreal went 11-3 with an ERA under 4 in his 2 years, instead of being worried that Villareal struck out less batters.
http://www.baseballbrett13.blogspot.com

by baseballbrett13 on Mar 27, 2008 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well said!
That's just it.  Here's my comparison - Andruw was good, but you just about knew last year he would find a way to spin down to one knee on his way to yet another strikeout in an important situation.....I just didn't look forward to his at bats.  Same with Yates - you just knew he'd find a way to give up the lead.  
Glad he's gone.

by secondbass on Mar 27, 2008 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"You just knew..."?
How did you "just know" that Yates would give up the lead, when he posted a positive WPA in more than 70% of his appearances?  That means he helped the team's chances to win 70% of the times he appeared.  If you were a betting man and you put your money on him blowing it because you "just knew" he was going to, you'd have lost some serious money.  I don't mean to offend you, but your or my predispositions toward players probably aren't the best things to base personnel decisions on.

by tgthree on Mar 27, 2008 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's right...
....I "knew."  I also know the scores and stats for all Braves games and players this season, but guess what?  I'm not telling you!

by secondbass on Mar 27, 2008 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow...
You would rather find someone who tends to get lucky?  Good luck with that, given that the definition of "luck" is "something that happens purely by chance".  So how do you find someone that tends to have good luck?  By definition, luck is not something you can tend to have.  You think Yates has to "figure out" how not to give up runs?  When many of the runs scored against him last year were due to bad luck, it would be like you "figuring out" how to get a coin to turn heads up every time you flipped it.

And now you're going to bring W-L record into this discussion?!  Please.  The peripherals are FAR more indicative of future success.  Statistical analysis of decades of statistical data have empirically proven this.  Just because most people prefer to look at W-L record instead of strikeout and walk rates just means that a lot of baseball fans have some catch-up to do in terms of understanding the game.

by tgthree on Mar 27, 2008 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hear you..
...and agree with you. But just be warned that you'll get things like "You can shit on numbers" and things of that nature around here.

One thing I try to point people to is a post up on the USS Mariner blog..

"Evaluating Pitching" or "Why ERA and WHIP just don't cut it anymore"

I honestly think it should be required reading.

by RainDelay on Mar 27, 2008 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry to hear that...
It's too bad that any baseball fan anywhere would say that about stats.  They are by no means the be-all-and-end-all, but they can give insights into the game that are not possible by subjective observation.  Plus the use of stats doesn't force people to just "take my word for it".

by tgthree on Mar 27, 2008 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Results matter...
...and Yates was not having good results -- not this spring and not during the second half of last year. You can say spring stats don't matter for guys like Chipper and Teixeira, but for a guy like Yates who was still competing for a spot in the bullpen, what he does in games is important to consider. He was clearly identified by the Braves as the reliever that had to go (probably one way or another). I like the guy we got in return, Redmond. Young guys with good control are pretty rare and any pitcher can suddenly break through and be considered major league ready -- see Charlie Morton. That's a chance at something for the cost of nothing we needed.

by gondeee on Mar 26, 2008 3:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

OK, results matter...
BUT when you're making personnel decisions, you have to be able to screen out luck to look at talent.  It's eight solid months vs. two bad months (during which you could easily argue there was overwork at play).  And then there's NINE spring innings...NINE.  And he gave up 40% of his spring runs in ONE appearance (1/3 IP).  Teams shouldn't make decisions based on nine innings pitched.

I'm not questioning that the Braves identified him to go, I'm questioning WHY.  Young guys with good control may be pretty rare, but it's even rarer that they make it to the big leagues.  And you're right that ANY pitcher can suddenly break through...but that proves what exactly?  If you're going by the Charlie Morton school of logic, then why pay any attention to past performance at all?  You get a guy with a small chance of becoming something for the cost of a guy who could have had solid value as a middle reliever.  When you can't afford to bid big in the free agent market, you've got to hold on to every morsel of value you can find, even if that is Tyler Yates.

by tgthree on Mar 26, 2008 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sounds like we got
Jaime Richmond back in this Redmond kid

by themurph on Mar 26, 2008 5:17 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Nice
I like that comp.

by gondeee on Mar 26, 2008 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Speaking of trades
I was thinking about our all time worst acquisitions. Tell me what y'all think.

http://bravesblog.net

JB in ATL

by JBinATL on Mar 26, 2008 5:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

trade
Looks like we gave a guy who has pontential up but who we were putting on waivers and got a chuck james like pitcher.

good trade.

by Chester Highwater on Mar 26, 2008 8:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Haha!
Redmond, Redman . . . too close for me haha. We'll have to see what the kid can do but it sounds like he at least has some potential.

by Sandragiggle120 on Mar 26, 2008 8:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i didn't read ALL 35 comments prior to this...
but gondeee, i salute you.

"good."

that was the most sweetest, succinct response to tyler yates being traded that could possibly be made.  i couldn't possibly have said it any better myself.

stats aside; and i say that often, because they're not all that important to a fan like me, clearly.  but yates was completely expendable.  i placed him at maybe a baby-step up from the quality of such dung piles as macay mcbride, chad paronto, wil ledezma were, simply because he could crank it up to 98 mph.  and as it was mentioned results are all that matters; i can't count how many times i would hold my breath watching yates pitch ball, ball, and then get the 2-0 hitter's count and throw a 98 mph fastball down the pipe that even ray charles could hit out of the park.

i'm grateful for the handful of quality innings he's given the braves throughout the last year or two, but honestly, i'm not going to lose any sleep over this trade.  one less spot to clog for when gonzalez gets back.

by royhobbs on Mar 26, 2008 9:56 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Not terrible
Yates was making $800,000, rather than the $400,000 that his replacement will make. He was also out of options, so we should be thankful that we both save $400,000 and pick up a guy who may have a future in a ML bullpen. And all that's ignoring that he wasn't particularly good last season; an even 6.00 RA, a 1.44 WHIP, the second highest HR/9 rate to only Soriano, etc. Let's be real, Yates was a flyball/strike out pitcher who walked too many and missed too few bats. That's a poor combo coming in from the bullpen. At worst, his replacement will be at his level, more half the price, and a middling young arm.

I would've much preferred us to have non-tendered Yates rather than Paronto last fall. But, meh.

by 17843 on Mar 27, 2008 1:00 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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