Yates Traded to Pirates
That's all the story that was just posted on AJC.com said:
Good.
I'll post more here as we learn what we got in return (if anything).
Update [2008-3-26 9:40:0 by gondeee]:
According to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette we swapped Yates for pitching prospect Todd Redmond.
He looks like an interesting middling starting pitching prospect. Over at Minor League Ball John Sickels gave him a grade of C this year, but last year he gave him a grade of C+ and ranked him as the seventh best prospect in the Pittsburgh organization (by the way, Lillibridge was ranked 3rd that year).
It looks like we got a young arm with decent to good upside. Nice trade if for no other reason than we were able to pare off Yates from the roster.
Here is a link to his minor league stats.
Update [2008-3-26 9:50:46 by gondeee]:
Baseball America rated him as having the best control in the Pirates organization. In 2007 they ranked him as the ninth best prospect in the Pirates system. This little tidbit is from a BA Pirates Organizational Report filed at the end of the 2006 season:
Redmond's showing in the South Atlantic League came after he led the New York-Penn League with a 1.98 ERA in 73 innings in 2005 for short-season Williamsport. Not bad for a 39th-round pick from St. Petersburg (Fla.) Community College in 2004 who was signed as a draft-and-follow.
Redmond, 21, throws a fastball, curveball and changeup. Though none are dominant pitches, he has outstanding command, carying a 148-33 strikeout-walk ratio in 160 innings this season.
We seem to have done a good job of snagging some good prospects from a Pirates organization that doesn't have many prospects. It looks like people soured on Redmond because he had an off-year last year. If he can rebound to his 05 or 06 numbers then we got a really nice young arm in return for a reliever we were probably going to release anyway.
0 recs |
49 comments
Comments
Stats...
Low A -- he had a 1.98 ERA in 72.2 IP;
A -- he had a 2.81 ERA in 160.1 IP;
High A -- he had a 4.54 ERA in 142.2 IP;
Double AA -- he had a 3.12 ERA in 17.1 IP.
Has a good Ks to IP at 7.28 and his WHIP (BB+HR per IP) is a pretty good 1.16.
Not sure what to make of his time at Lynchburg. I am going to check out the newspapers and see what the folks said about his time in High A.
by taney71 on Mar 26, 2008 9:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Interesting assessment of Redmond
"He's definitely an interesting guy," said Brian Graham, the Pirates' senior director of player development. "His stuff is average, but his composure and competitiveness are above average. This guy has something special.
"He's like Charles Nagy. He has a knack for getting outs when he has to get outs."
Nagy, a mainstay in Cleveland's rotation in the 1990s, was 129-103 with a 4.51 earned run average.
"We think [Redmond's] a big-leaguer for sure," said Ed Creech, the Pirates' senior director of scouting. "Hitters don't see the ball real well out of his hand, and he's not afraid on the mound."
Link:
by taney71 on Mar 26, 2008 9:48 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Even before...
For instance, I got a 2006 rating of Redman being the top "Average" prospect in their system.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5771
by taney71 on Mar 26, 2008 9:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
2007 Season in Review for Redmond
2007 SEASON HIGHLIGHTS
Rated by Baseball America as the Pirates' #9 prospect entering the season and as
having the "Best Changeup" in the system... Combined to go 8-13 with a 4.39 ERA
in 28 starts between Lynchburg (A) and Altoona... Made 25 starts for Lynchburg and
three spot starts for the Curve... Ranked 2nd among all Pirates' minor leaguers with
107 strikeouts in 160.0 innings of work... Spent most of the season with Lynchburg
(A), going 7-12 with a 4.54 ERA... Finished tied for the most losses in the Carolina
League (12)... Allowed just one hit over 7.0 scoreless innings to earn the win on 5/2
vs. Kinston (1 BB, 5 K)... Worked 6.0 scoreless frames to notch the victory on 5/30
vs. Frederick (7 H, 0 BB, 4 K)... Promoted to Altoona on 6/20 and made his first of
three spot starts for the Curve in game two of that night's doubleheader @ Erie --
received a no-decision in the Altoona's 4-3 loss in eight innings (5.0 IP, 4 H, 1 R, 1
BB, 2 K)... Returned to Lynchburg on 6/21 and went 2-4 with a 5.98 ERA (40.2 IP/
27 ER) in his next seven starts before returning to Altoona for his second start on
8/4... Earned his first Double-A win in a spot start vs. New Hampshire on 8/4,
allowing two runs on five hits with seven strikeouts over 6.1 innings of work...
Made a pair of starts for Lynchburg (8/9 @ Salem & 8/14 vs. Myrtle Beach) before
making his third Curve start in game two of the 8/18 doubleheader vs. Erie -- took
the loss after yielding three runs on six hits over 6.0 innings... Returned to
Lynchburg and lost each of his last three starts (4.05 ERA, 20.0 IP, 9 ER)... Overall,
dropped his final six decisions with the Hillcats (last win came on 7/14 @ Frederick)
Link:
by taney71 on Mar 26, 2008 9:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Meh. He has + command though.
by TradeAndruw on Mar 26, 2008 9:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but
by taney71 on Mar 26, 2008 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The assessment you're looking for...
I seriously doubt Redmond is going to get anywhere near the majors unless he does a lot of improving in the next few years, and I'm sorry to see a solid middle reliever like Tyler Yates shipped off for a guy with a not-really-that-bright future.
by tgthree on Mar 26, 2008 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A "solid" middle reliever like Yates
I beg to differ, but perhaps I am using a distinct definition of the adjective "solid" in combination with the noun-formation of "middle reliever."
In my system of thinking, Tyler Yates is more "highly mediocre" than "solid."
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by jpx7 on Mar 26, 2008 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why was everyone so eager to deal Yates?
Last year:
9.41 K/9, 3.14 UIBB/9, 1.26 GB/FB
Not to mention his HORRIBLE luck (.331 BABIP, 60.3% strand rate). Why did everyone hate the man so much? He's no setup man, but he's a solid and useful middleman. Looking at the contracts being handed out to solid and useful middlemen these days, what are we doing trading one for the likes of Todd Redmond?
by tgthree on Mar 26, 2008 11:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Bandwagoning....
Yates was solid but mishandled in my opinion. He did have control problems but he also had some wicked stuff in his arsenal.
From a front-office standpoint, I see this is just moving a piece that you'd rather not lose to a waiver wire. With the return to form that Blaine Boyer has shown and the solid work Resop has been putting in, I think the Braves just saw Yates as the most movable piece and from that standpoint, I can't argue with the trade.
by sdp on Mar 26, 2008 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yates Trade
I don't see him as the miserable pitcher I wanted to run out on a rail as much as he is the one who didn't impress enough for a very competitive bullpen spot.
Otherwise we lose him to waivers and really get nothing in return.
JB in ATL
by JBinATL on Mar 26, 2008 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why was everyone so eager to deal Yates?
Plus, while his 2007 BAbip was fairly unlucky for the average major-league pitcher, it wasn't very far off of his personal career-averages. With an odd-man to be singled out, Yates has less long-term appeal than Boyer and Resop, and all there were fairly fungible in the short-term (though I do feel Boyer and Resop are likely better relievers in 2008 as well).
by jpx7 on Mar 26, 2008 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
all three*
by jpx7 on Mar 26, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All three?
by Euruproktos on Mar 26, 2008 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Take out the IBB...
Boyer and Resop certainly have more long-term appeal but since when was this an either/or? We could've carried all four of our out-of-options guys and not had to cut anybody or sell low.
by tgthree on Mar 26, 2008 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yates has always lacked control
Just in 2007; I am talking about his career.
"Uninspiring career numbers?"
I am also taking into account minor-league track records in my analysis.
"Boyer and Resop certainly have more long-term appeal but since when was this an either/or?"
It is an either/or situation because Cox will carry Manny Acosta on the 25-man roster to begin 2008 -- he has said as much, so it is virtually absolute. With Acosta joining Soriano, Moylan, and Ohman as roster certainties, that left three spots for four players (3 RHPs, 1 LHP).
So, the decision became: either carry one left-handed relievers, or trade/lose (via waivers) one of the three right-handers.
The Braves chose to trade Yates rather than lose him for nothing, but - either way - had decided he was the odd-man.
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by jpx7 on Mar 26, 2008 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Minor-league numbers
Also it's true that I am talking about what Cox SHOULD do rather than what he WILL do. Acosta should go back to the minors to give us another month to avoid making a bad decision.
by tgthree on Mar 26, 2008 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing, I'd surmise
Then I guess you don't know what to do with me, because I am not comfortable completely discounting a very large sample of data just because a player may have somehow benefited from a surgery.
Perhaps - if Yates' slight improvements in BB/9 and K/9 in 2007 are maintained in 2008, and are accompanied by about .020 better luck in BAbip - he can be a ~4.20 ERA reliever, which would be serviceable in middle-relief. But the vast majority of his career does not give me faith that he can bring all these necessary components together for an entire season - even if I weight his three most recent seasons most heavily (and I do).
And, even if he were sustain improvements in all of these pitching dimensions, I don't think he could be called a "totally different pitcher" than he has been most of his career. Instead, at such hypothetical time, I would simply say that Yates had made the necessary improvements amongst his weaknesses to parlay his strengths into material success.
by jpx7 on Mar 26, 2008 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are absolutely right...
His FIP last year was 3.84 to give you an idea of what he could do with league-average luck. Serviceable indeed, and these days there's plenty of value to serviceable relievers. Just ask LaTroy Hawkins or J.C. Romero, who this winter signed contracts and are getting paid a fortune to be serviceable.
I don't know what you mean by "material success", but if you mean having a low ERA, then there's little any pitcher can do about that. ERA involves a helluva lot of luck, and sometimes the batted balls are just gonna fall in.
by tgthree on Mar 26, 2008 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yates
I think you may have simply presumed I thought the idea was far-fetched; in fact, I only qualified the idea as being (a) currently ambiguous in the case of Tyler Yates, and (b) difficult to describe in terms of acute areas of improvement ("somehow"). My exact words were:
"I am not comfortable completely discounting a very large sample of data just because a player may have somehow benefited from a surgery."
"His FIP last year was 3.84 to give you an idea of what he could do with league-average luck."
I guess I question whether to believe Yates is the 3.84 FIP pitcher with a little bad-luck with BAbip (as in 2007), or to believe he is the 4.70 FIP pitcher with good luck on balls-in-play (.273 BAbip in 2006). My fear, with respect to his future, is that he is likely somewhere in between - especially at age-30 - and hence will oscillate within the 4.20-4.80 ERA range.
"I don't know what you mean by "material success", but if you mean having a low ERA, then there's little any pitcher can do about that. ERA involves a helluva lot of luck, and sometimes the batted balls are just gonna fall in."
I understand this point perfectly well; however, ERA does measure something, especially for starting pitchers, and especially in the aggregate and over a large sample-size. For instance, if two pitchers throw 3000 innings, and one carries a 4.50 ERA over that span, while another carries a 3.50 ERA, earned-run-average is quantifiably-sound enough to justify a qualitative description: the pitcher with the 3.50 ERA was clearly the superior pitcher over the course of their respective careers.
(Of course, in less discrete cases, issues like park-effects, league-averages, and overall run-environments much be more prominently accounted -- such as in the qualitative distinction between a 3.50 ERA pitcher from the 1960s and a 3.60 ERA pitcher from the 1990s - but in those cases, ERA+, dips/FIP, et cetera once again become necessary and highly advantageous.)
In the specific case of Tyler Yates, however, I simply meant run-prevention in high-leverage games situations, which are frequent in the middle innings of games. With relievers, ERA is further problematized by factors such as runs ascribed to the previous/relieved pitcher (mid-inning uses of relievers) and vastly smaller sample-sizes; hence, I will use OBP/SLG-against because it measures more directly the reliever's interactions with the batters faced (positive and negative), because it accounts for walks and extra-base hits, and because it is easily broken down into game-specific situations through interweb technology.
Employing such a heuristic, we find that Yates was worse in most higher-leverage situations in 2007:
.250/.353/.409 in "Late & Close" situations*
(106 PA)
.253/.354/.398 in +- 1 R situations
(100 PA)
.394.487/.667 in tie-game situations
(41 PA)
In 2007, Yates pitched through 294 total PA and produced a line of .251/.338/.400 for the opposition; his best game-specific situational category (besides >4 R) was +- 2 R, and his .241.340/.358 in those 163 PA certainly helped his overall numbers.
Perhaps, either way, the issue will be Cox's usage pattern - whether it be specific game-situations or frequency/days-of-rest. And, while I very much appreciate your arguing against the premise of the decision, and not the reality of the decision, I think many are simply glad to see Yates depart because - by removing him from Cox's purview - we will no longer have to witness Yates struggle with run-prevention, even if he isn't the predominant source of culpability.
(The usage patterns of major-league managers are certainly highly impugnable: for instance, I'd prefer Cox use Soriano in instances of the highest potential leverage - regardless of inning or save-situation. However, most managers are psychological uncomfortable with this conception of bullpen-usage; moreover, most elite-quality (or even above-average) relief pitchers would object to this usage model, because the "Save" statistic has such cachet and the accompanying fiscal benefit in contract negotiations: Cf. Francisco Cordero.)
*Baseball-Reference defines "Late & Close" as "PA in the 7th or later with the batting team tied, ahead by one, or the tying run at least on deck."
by jpx7 on Mar 27, 2008 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, regarding the injury/improvement
"LAKE BUENA VISTA, Fla. -- When Chris Resop arrived at Spring Training, he still felt a little tentative about the fact that he was coming back from right elbow surgery. But six weeks later, the right-handed reliever finds himself with a high-velocity fastball and reason to feel confident that he'll be on the Braves' Opening Day roster.
'I definitely didn't expect my velocity to be where it's been,' said Resop, who was claimed off waivers from the Angels in October. 'It's higher now than it's ever been. I've always been a 93-95 [mph] guy, and for some reason this spring, I've been higher, a lot higher. I'll take it gladly.'"
Thus, even if your injury theory is correct, it may apply to both Yates and Resop; considering, Resop's superior track-record and the five-year age disparity benefiting Resop, it may not have been a mistake to stick with Resop if one of the two had to go.
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by jpx7 on Mar 27, 2008 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"If one of the two had to go..."
by tgthree on Mar 27, 2008 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yates
And that is certainly a valid vector of questioning.
However, if one of them had to go (the assumption under which Cox/Wren seem to have been working), then I think Yates was the appropriate choice.
by jpx7 on Mar 27, 2008 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yates
by drdonkeypunch on Mar 26, 2008 11:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yates had almost no trade value
by TradeAndruw on Mar 26, 2008 11:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i'll take it.
by bigjoe on Mar 26, 2008 12:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Please explain..
by RainDelay on Mar 26, 2008 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yates
by bigjoe on Mar 26, 2008 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Logic doesn't make a lot of sense
- His K:BB was actually 3.00 once you take out the 8 walks that Bobby Cox ordered.
- And even if it was 2:1, perhaps you could tell Chad Cordero, Kevin Gregg, or Scot Shields that they can't succeed due to their K/BB ratios as well.
- ERA over five? ERA is driven in large part by luck, and Yates had awful luck last year. His FIP was 3.84. Hopefully our scouting department can look past ERA to stats that really indicate talent.
- Villarreal 6.84 K/9, 2.83 UIBB/9
I'll take a K per inning, thankyouverramuch.
5) Give me Blaine Boyer over Yates any day of the week as well. But since when could we only keep one or the other?
by tgthree on Mar 26, 2008 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
because
Maybe if Yates hadn't gotten into messes, Bobby wouldn't have ordered all those extra walks. Ever think of that?
by bigjoe on Mar 26, 2008 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Resop = Yates?
And yes, I did realize that Yates probably walked people a lot because he was in jams. But separate your argument here. If you're trying to say he has poor control (which you were trying to say by citing his walk rate), then throw out his IBBs because those have absolutely nothing to do with his command. If you're trying to say he often had to intentionally walk hitters because he was always in jams, then perhaps you should consider that Jeremy Affeldt (3.51 ERA), Peter Moylan (1.80 ERA) and Matt Capps (2.28 ERA) all were among pitchers with more intentional walks per nine innings than Yates.
by tgthree on Mar 26, 2008 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
K/BB
by baseballbrett13 on Mar 27, 2008 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said!
Glad he's gone.
by secondbass on Mar 27, 2008 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"You just knew..."?
by tgthree on Mar 27, 2008 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's right...
by secondbass on Mar 27, 2008 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow...
And now you're going to bring W-L record into this discussion?! Please. The peripherals are FAR more indicative of future success. Statistical analysis of decades of statistical data have empirically proven this. Just because most people prefer to look at W-L record instead of strikeout and walk rates just means that a lot of baseball fans have some catch-up to do in terms of understanding the game.
by tgthree on Mar 27, 2008 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hear you..
One thing I try to point people to is a post up on the USS Mariner blog..
"Evaluating Pitching" or "Why ERA and WHIP just don't cut it anymore"
I honestly think it should be required reading.
by RainDelay on Mar 27, 2008 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry to hear that...
by tgthree on Mar 27, 2008 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Results matter...
by gondeee on Mar 26, 2008 3:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
OK, results matter...
I'm not questioning that the Braves identified him to go, I'm questioning WHY. Young guys with good control may be pretty rare, but it's even rarer that they make it to the big leagues. And you're right that ANY pitcher can suddenly break through...but that proves what exactly? If you're going by the Charlie Morton school of logic, then why pay any attention to past performance at all? You get a guy with a small chance of becoming something for the cost of a guy who could have had solid value as a middle reliever. When you can't afford to bid big in the free agent market, you've got to hold on to every morsel of value you can find, even if that is Tyler Yates.
by tgthree on Mar 26, 2008 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like we got
by themurph on Mar 26, 2008 5:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of trades
JB in ATL
by JBinATL on Mar 26, 2008 5:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
trade
good trade.
by Chester Highwater on Mar 26, 2008 8:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Haha!
by Sandragiggle120 on Mar 26, 2008 8:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i didn't read ALL 35 comments prior to this...
"good."
that was the most sweetest, succinct response to tyler yates being traded that could possibly be made. i couldn't possibly have said it any better myself.
stats aside; and i say that often, because they're not all that important to a fan like me, clearly. but yates was completely expendable. i placed him at maybe a baby-step up from the quality of such dung piles as macay mcbride, chad paronto, wil ledezma were, simply because he could crank it up to 98 mph. and as it was mentioned results are all that matters; i can't count how many times i would hold my breath watching yates pitch ball, ball, and then get the 2-0 hitter's count and throw a 98 mph fastball down the pipe that even ray charles could hit out of the park.
i'm grateful for the handful of quality innings he's given the braves throughout the last year or two, but honestly, i'm not going to lose any sleep over this trade. one less spot to clog for when gonzalez gets back.
by royhobbs on Mar 26, 2008 9:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not terrible
I would've much preferred us to have non-tendered Yates rather than Paronto last fall. But, meh.
by 17843 on Mar 27, 2008 1:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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