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Bench

This is one area I would have loved to see the Braves expand on. If just a little.  Looking at the bench right now I just don't see that go to pinch hitter like a Dwight Smith, or a Franco of years past.  Diaz had been that guy the last couple of years but with him in a quasi regular role I don't think they have that person.

I think we all saw last year the horror of watching Woodard, Thorman and Orr come up and swing...and swing with absolute futility as pinch hitters.  Harris was hot for a little while and when Diaz wasn't starting he was a PH extraordinaire.  However, who is that person going to be this year?
Infante?  Infante may be a hell of a glove guy and can play everything but closer but he is not a "professional bat off the bench."  His career OBP is .298. He is still young and could get better but my hunch is that he will hit ..well...not so good.

Lopez could actually be the solution as the primary bat off the bench, but is Bobby going to let his back up catcher take a crack in the game early? If that is the case does that mean that Sammons catches on as the #3 catcher and eat up that roster spot?  

Ideally this is where I would like to have seen one more signing...one more trade.  

I just saw that Cintron got signed by the Cubs.  Funny how that works.  We trade to get Infante and they take our prospect and sign Cintron for little or nothing?  I realize that Infante is far better with the glove. However, Cintron to me could be a serviceable PH/Bench player. He is a switch hitter.  He can play multiple positions.  He has a little pop and he makes contact. I realize that his OBP is also poor at .313 but he doesn't strike out.  I tend to believe that this has value for a pinch hitter.  He could also have been someone who could have filled in at 3B if Chipper went down and not have destroyed the line up.

However, now that Cintron is gone who would I like to see for the Braves bench:

  1. Jeff Kippinger: The guy does nothing but HIT. He can play multiple positions and hold his own. He doesn't strike out has a little pop...and did I mention that the man can hit?  He could also be a platoon option for KJ at 2B when the urge to platoon strikes Bobby( That is a joke. Please don't platoon KJ again this year!).  He is also a nice insurance policy if Chipper goes down. I don't want to imagine Chipper being out for 2 weeks and Inante getting 40 ABs. I doubt that he would be available from the Reds right now given that the Reds see themselves as potential contenders, but he would have been nice.
  2. Robert Fick/Vinnie Rottino/Javier Valentin/Eric Munson/Matt LeCroy All of these guys are kind of the same guy: Not really good catchers but perhaps enough of a bat to help out and be a possible pinch hit option.  Even better is that most of these guys were so bad as catchers that they also learned other positions.  This would be valuable for depth of bench.  It would also allow Bobby to use Javy Lopez early as a PH because he would have someone (besides Matt Diaz) that could catch if needed.
  3. Mike Sweeney: I think Mike wants more of a fulltime job but if he would take a role as the Braves primary PH bat and occasional AL DH he would be great. He has said he would be willing to put on the tools of ignorance every once in a while if needed; again a way to have a 3rd catcher on the team without having to waste a roster spot.
  4. Shannon Stewart: He can still hit and run a little. He is just not a good OFer anymore. If we have a bench with Brandon Jones and Omar Inante then you could get away with sending Josh Anderson and Greg Blanco to AAA for more work.  If Kotsay got banged up either Infante or Brandon Jones would be able to get you by for a couple of innings..maybe even a game in CF.  Why not put a valuable bat in that roster seat and give Josh Anderson or Blanco an opportunity to get ABs not sit on the bench and only get 85 ABs for the year.  The only way either would get significant time would be if Kotsay got hurt. In that case they can take the Richmond shuttle in and be there in a day. Not a big deal.
  5. Mark Lorretta: I think the Astros had to go to Arbitration with him and it probably ended up costing them some money. They are not going to contend this year.  If they would be willing to trade him for a bag of balls and the braves pay his salary. I would take it. He can play the infield and is a good hitter.  Again could be a gapstop at 3B if Chipper gets hurt.
  6. Greg Norton: He is one of these guys that comes along and produces every couple of years.  He has put together a couple good years for Tampa Bay coming off their bench. He is a switch hitter and could not kill himself playing 3B/1B/RF/LF.  
I am open to other ideas but I think this is an area that could have been easy, cheap and a very effective way to improve the Braves team as a whole and they haven't done it yet.

This FanPost does not express the views or opinions of Talking Chop.

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With your reasoning we already have it.
Bryan Pena is all of these things that you mentioned above.  He is versatile in the fact that he spent basically a whole season playing many different positions (5 I beleive in the minors this past year after he came back from the concussion).  So, he knows how to play many positions like the players you mentioned in your second option and he can play catcher as a 2nd or 3rd option if Javy is used earlier in the game.  Also, Pena is probably a better hitter than the majority of people you mentioned above.  He has above a .300 batting average the last few years in the minors.  So, instead of spending more money to pay for a bat, why not just fill this hole from within the organization and save some money.  Also, it wouldn't hurt Yunel's progression to have a good friend traveling around the country with him day in and day out.

With all this being said. I don't think we really need another bat as you suggest.  We will have Diaz or Brandon Jones off the bench everyday, both solid hitters. Also, Javy will be there and like you said Infante is young and will get better.  Basically if Thorman can just make some contact this year, I think we have a pretty strong bench.  But, if Thorman doesn't hit, I say bring up Pena and you will have that versatile player that can play Thorman's back up role as well as Javy and a few others back ups.

by whunt13 on Feb 19, 2008 1:14 AM EST reply actions  

Hmm..
I know that Norton is in camp with the Mariners, Fick is in camp with someone as a NRI.

Those are two that I know of right off the top of my head.

by RainDelay on Feb 19, 2008 10:49 AM EST reply actions  

Thorman
IF Thorman makes contact. That is a big question. I don't want to enter the season with the idea that Thorman is going to make contact.  He won't.

As for Brandon Jones; I think he will be productive but I dont' think it is fair to ask a him to be a big time contributor off the bench. I think PH is totally different and there are some guys who are great PH that are not good fulltime players and there are good fulltime players who don't PH well.

B. Pena: If he can hit reasonably well I think he does fit the mold of the player I was talkign about. I am just not sold on the fact that he can hit.

As for the money; many of the people we are talking about are role players. They would not cost the Braves much in the way of payroll.  By dropping 500k or even 1 million on a role player you free up a developing player to focus on what he needs to do long term. Not just worry about isolated ABs. You can really get a young player into bad habits and kill his confidence with too much PH duties early in his career.

by calbers on Feb 19, 2008 11:35 AM EST reply actions  

BJones
i agree with you about Thorman but if Brandon Jones is planning on being productive throughout his career, its fair to ask him to be a contributor off the bench. same goes for Lillibridge. being productive off the bench is key for players gaining more starting time (see Matt Diaz). Both of these players are not good enough to be handed a spot, so they are going to have to earn it by proving they can step up to the plate and hit the ball.

one thing about this bench is that there is only one seasoned veteran. the bench is a good place for a winding down veteran coaching prospect who has presence on the team. Javy brings some of that because he is a former brave but I dont see him making too huge of an impact on anyone but McCann. I think you make a good point that they are going to pull off a "tony pena" type trade to pick up another bench player that can bring more to this team than a dependable bat.

by MIZIKE74 on Feb 19, 2008 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

The only way..
..Lillibridge should be on this team is as a starter. And really thats not going to happen, he needs more time at triple A to get at bats. His defense is major league ready, his bat not so much.

Having him on the roster and rotting on the bench isn't helping him or the Braves.

by RainDelay on Feb 19, 2008 11:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Prospects
I agree. I also think the same can be said of Brandon Jones, Anderson, or Blanco.  If they player is not going to get signfigant ABs then they are better off getting ABs in AAA. If Brandon Jones platoons and get 250 ABs I am fine with that. However, I would not want Lillibridge in Atlanta unless he was in a semi-regular role.  I think that a bench role for a potential everyday player could very easily have a negative impact on a players development.  The ability to work on pitch recongiation, patterns, swing consitency etc are all complicated by heavy pinch hitting. I would rather pay a million dollars for a veteran then detract from one of the young players development my relegating them to the bench.

by calbers on Feb 20, 2008 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Infante
I also want to clarify: I said that Infante COULD get better. I don't expect to get much better with the bat w/o signifigant playing time.  The thing that i don't like about him is that he doesn't make contact well, isn't selective, doesn't take a walk, and strikes out a ton.  Not a good pinch hitting candidate to me.

by calbers on Feb 19, 2008 11:39 AM EST reply actions  

oh dear god
please keep Matt LeCroy as FAAAAAR away as you can from ATL

by RehabReject on Feb 19, 2008 9:29 PM EST reply actions  

Javy
MIZIKE7 - I like where you were going with that Javy comment but I don't think you took it far enough.  Javy could end up being a coach one day but I don't believe the Bravos need to hurt their team giving him a shot.  A few possible problems come to mind:
  1.  Javy is washed up.  
  2.  Behind McCann (in my opinion) needs to be a defensive minded catcher.  Javy never has been in that role.
  3.  He is used to being a main part of the puzzle while in Atlanta and I sense a bad attitude coming from Javy.  When he was with Boston I swear he focused on how his uniform looked instead of the important stuff like hitting and catching.
  4.  He would cost to much for what we are getting.  Why not give Clint a shot and see what he can make of himself?

by Chester Highwater on Feb 20, 2008 12:26 PM EST reply actions  

Javy
Javy's value all depends on how he hits.  If he can be a decent hitter then he has value on the Braves bench.  However, my question is whether he should be the backup catcher or the primary PH and 3rd string catcher. My issue is that if he can't hit..and hit fairly well.. do you waste two bench spots in order to carry him?  If he isn't the ansewer at the Backup catcher spot does that mean we have to carry Corky or Clint? If so, and Javy isn't money with the bat then we have to roster spots going to waste.

by calbers on Feb 20, 2008 12:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Corky and Clint...
...Clint needs to catch everyday at this point, sitting on the bench getting one start a week isn't helping him or the Braves (just like Lillibridge). If Javy can still hit I don't see why not.

And I'll bet dollars to dough nuts right now, Javy makes the team. Bobby loves his vets, look at how many times the team carried Brian Jordan, even after it was evident he couldn't hit or run anymore.

by RainDelay on Feb 20, 2008 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

As far as corky goes...
(forgot to add this in my post above.)He's horrible, not that great defensively and horrible with a bat in his hands. This is a guy that hit under .200 for most of the season at Triple A.

by RainDelay on Feb 20, 2008 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Pena
Two Teams, Two Coasts - One Obsession.  I'll agree with you that Clint needs to catch everyday so keeping him in the minors would do him some good to possibly show case to other clubs.  So how about putting Pena in as the backup?  I don't think we can waste a spot for Javy (I don't think he can hit anymore...double play waiting to happen).  

Lets face it...McCann is going to play 85%+ of the games if he is heathly.  We just need a guy who can come in and do a decent job as the back up.  Javy isn't the answer.

by Chester Highwater on Feb 20, 2008 3:15 PM EST reply actions  

Pena is not really a catching option...
..I could see using him in a emergency roll. He played more games at DH/1B/3B/LF in Richmond last year than he did at catcher (Iker Franco and Corky Miller were the primary catchers in Richmond last year). The Braves have moved on from him being a catcher - and trying to groom him for something else. If he doesn't take at one of those spots...he could find himself without a job or in another organization.

by RainDelay on Feb 20, 2008 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

pena
needs to be on the bench this season. he is a clubhouse favorite and can give escobar some much needed "best friend support" during some hard stretches during the season. hes proven he can hit, yet he continually doesnt get a chance to prove he can do it consistantly at the major league level. i dont know why...

as for lilli and jones on the bench, its not as harmful as you might think for a rooke to come of the bench his very first season. its a good way to get acclimated to life at the grand stage. specifically for players who are ready to make the jump from AAA to the majors. life is much different at the majors than AAA and for a player who isnt going to be handed a starting spot coming off the bench is the best way to prove you belong. ya feel me...

by MIZIKE74 on Feb 20, 2008 4:23 PM EST reply actions  

Pena
If Pena can be an average, or above average defensive catcher; great. But it sounds like he isn't that kind of player.  If Lopez can hit then Pena is a great option at the #3 catcher/Util spot but I wouldn't want him to be the primary #2 catcher.

As for PH/Bench work. I understand what you are saying about getting exposure to the Majors but I think the Braves generally do a good job of doing that during DL call ups and spring training.  Plus with so many young guys on the roster right now these guys should know a lot of the players already in Atlanta.

by calbers on Feb 20, 2008 5:49 PM EST reply actions  

you might be right
about pena, but if hes fits the mold of a guy that all teams strive for on their bench (and hes for sure a better emergency catcher than diaz), then he deserves a spot on the bench. luckily this is a question that spring training is made to answer.

and you might be right about the Braves DL call ups, but getting exposure to the majors is far more than just being friendly with the guys around you.

by MIZIKE74 on Feb 20, 2008 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

If I'm not mistaken...
Barry Bonds is still available...

by rom121 on Feb 20, 2008 11:16 PM EST reply actions  

Bonds
I'll shit a brick if Bonds put on a Braves uniform.  

by Chester Highwater on Feb 21, 2008 9:35 AM EST reply actions  

What about Thor
Ok Thorman could kill somebody in a bar fight but should we reserve a spot for him on the bench?  The Braves have been high on him for a while so there has to be something there but I just don't see it.  I do understand that we need a back up 1B in case Tex goes down but I don't see Tex ever coming out of the game unless he is injured.  Can Thor come off the bench and get a clutch hit?  Here's one that doesn't think so.  

After all that bitching I don't have a better solution.  I guess he makes the squad.

by Chester Highwater on Feb 21, 2008 12:29 PM EST reply actions  

I agree...
..but it's not like we have a whole lot of options for a back up at 1st. Diaz got a shot last year, but hopefully he's in the line up full time. Brayan Pena might be an answer to fill in if needed.

Not to mention he's a switch hitter as well. But I'm not so confident about his bat.

by RainDelay on Feb 21, 2008 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Back up at 1B
My personal opinion is that Thorman won't hit enough to keep him around. So even if Tex did go down I think between his K's and his poor glovework I don't think he would be an ansewer for anything more then a couple weeks.  I hate to be mean..but he needs to be cut or traded to a team that could use a power DH.  Maybe someone like a Minnesota, KC, or A's?

However, I don't know who that would leave as the back up to 1B.  I suppose you could bring Lillibridge up and let him play SS and move Escobar to 3B and move Chipper to 1B if it was going to be a long stretch that Tex was out.

You could let Diaz have a shot there and give JOnes more time in LF.

Javy's experiment at 1B was a disaster. So that won't work.

Kotsay played SOME 1B in his career and I think played it in College.  He could be a short term solution if Blanco, ANderson, or Schafer was hot.

However, this goes back to my original point that we need a quality bat off the bench. Ideally a utility guy would could play 1B.

by calbers on Feb 21, 2008 8:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Frank Wren
The back up 1B/extra utility guy is probably the biggest glaring weakness on this team.  Hopefully Wren sees this and tries to will and deal.  I don't know if that will be the case though.  For some reason the Bravos are high on Thor and I see him getting a chance to fill the role.

*Chipper @ 1B.  I don't think Larry is likely to make a position change for the rest of his career.  Personally I believe when he moved to LF he lost 2 - 3 years on his career.  Keep Larry at 3B and in the 3 spot.

by Chester Highwater on Feb 22, 2008 12:20 PM EST reply actions  

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