Why not Manny?
by dave462 on Dec 20, 2008 12:47 PM EST
66 comments
Ok, first, this plan has to be seen as a response to what’s already occurred. Braves fans came into this offseason expecting to land a couple pitchers that would take us back to the days of old, but it doesn’t seem possible given what’s out there.
I’m glad we didn’t get Peavy and lose Yunel, who’s great, cheap, and under control until 2013. It seems (hopefully) this won’t be revisited. AJ went to the Yanks. Lowe’s 35 looking for a 4-yr deal , and Sheets’ back problems make him a dangerous acquisition. That ace we’re looking for right now just isn’t available.
But, lucky us, we have an equally large hole to fill in our lineup. We’re looking for a right-handed cleanup hitter in left field. Without him, our lineup really can’t compete with the Mets and Phillies. There’s not much available in the FA market. Ty Wiggington seems the best bet sadly. Dye is available in a trade, but he’s only signed for a year (/w mutual option), he’d cost $11.5M, and then we’d be right back in the FA market looking at big money and years for guys like Holliday and Bay, while we wait for Heyward.
The option nobody ever talks about is actually the best option. The Braves aren’t the kind of team that signs Manny for $20M+/yr. We’re more likely to get Dye and Sheets or whatever it is to fill the two holes for the same price. It seems more financially responsible or something. But in this case it’s a bad move. We have such a glaring weakness in our lineup. We don’t have any right-handed power source to hit between Chipper and McCann. Jeff Francoeur is not going to turn into this guy for us. And here sits Manny, one of the most dangerous right-handed hitters out there, and nobody is offering him even 3 years right now. If somehow the Yanks make a run for Tex and aren’t in on Manny, we may be looking at just having to outbid the Dodgers and Giants or something.
The Braves sent a message to those agents, but that doesn’t change how they look right now. Peavy tried to steer himself to the Cubs. AJ chose the Yanks. Furcal chose the Dodgers. Sheets and Dye does not send the message that we are fucking back folks. If we get Manny, the Mets and Phils will think we are one move away from being right with them. And we have the depth in the organization to make that move. It sends a message that the Braves are ready now.
To this point, our best trade chips are probably Gorkys since he’s blocked by Schafer, and Morton/Reyes/Campillo who are all under control ‘til 2013, but haven’t shown they are sure major league assets yet. Right now the value of the pitchers is minimal. But if you look at past trades, cheap controllable pitching is worth a lot, even if they’re back of the rotation guys. If we just go with Smoltz, Vazquez, Jair, and have these 3 guys fill out the rotation (have one be a long-relief/swingman), we can set ourselves up to allow them to become valuable trade chips. Mid-way through next season, when some teams are out of it, they can be looking to move their good pitching for cheap controllable major league talent. Using him only as an example, Greinke is signed ‘til 2010. Come July, when the Royals are out of contention, do they want to hold onto that year and a half of Greinke, or could a capable innings eater (under control cheaply another 4.5 years) and some prospects get him? Right now these guys aren’t available. So we sit and wait, instead of filling up our rotation, and taking opportunities away from our young guys.
Oh, and did I mention, Manny fucking Ramirez? It’s time we were relevent again. He could be the piece that allows us to keep pace with Mets/Phils while we allow the market to come back around to us and hand us that ace we want so much. If we get Dye/Sheets, we need Sheets to be healthy for us to be in the conversation. Manny doesn’t come with this risk. He can put the swagger back into this team, and let Chipper have a day off without crippling our lineup. Jermaine Dye is not the answer. And if we make the playoffs (that’s the aim right?), Smoltz, Chipper and Manny provide us with instant credibility with what would be a largely inexperienced group. It’s just against our team’s philosophy. But this year, in this climate, it’s the right move. It makes us credible without giving in and sacrificing our youth. We’ll give it up, but on our terms.In the meantime, we can field the best lineup we've had in a long time.
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thats right
at the beginning of this off-season i had no interest in getting Manny, its just not our style, he isnt exactly “Braves Material”. now that we have lost out so many times i think he just might be the answer, Manny is really what we need, no injury factor and if we give him 3yr 20 mil per thats perfect and more than anyone else is offering
we can wait until July on our Ace, but the same could be said about our power hitter, if we do get Manny, we can wait on our Ace for a few Months, plus this will make all of the FA pitchers wanna come to Atl. again
FRANK WREN GO GET MANNY!
by bravesfan1047 on Dec 20, 2008 12:56 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
No way on Manny!
I dont want that clubhouse cancer on my team. He is a douchebag, prick, piece of shit….. should i go on? The guy takes off a week or so in the middle of a pennant race just for the hell of it. Absofreakinlutely not on Manny to the Braves. Wren stay as far away as you can get from Manny.
braves#1
by rockybull on Dec 20, 2008 1:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Read the 800 other posts on here about Manny before you start a whole new fanpost for something that’s been beaten to death.
by cbwilk on Dec 20, 2008 1:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
...because there' no DH in the NL
Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball
by Yakker on Dec 20, 2008 4:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
had a couple of good months with the dodgers…
BIG JOE SUCK ONE
by bigjoe on Dec 20, 2008 5:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
True
But he had a very bad (defensively) number of years with the Red Sox. I’ll take his body of work defensively over an isolated 2-month stretch. And at age 36 (b.d. 5/30/72) he’s likely to get even worse defensively over the life of any potential contract.
Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball
by Yakker on Dec 20, 2008 7:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
when you have a player like manny ramirez, you don’t give a fuck what he can do defensively because he more than makes up for it with his bat.
BIG JOE SUCK ONE
by bigjoe on Dec 20, 2008 8:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
On net, he’s probably a 2-3 win player, but defense matters. It really matters. Look, Manny is still, at age 36, hellaciously good with the bat. But his defensive baggage is so bad that it chops his offensive value roughly in half.
Would I sign him at $20M/2 or even $30M/3? Probably. But he’ll get far, far more than that.
Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball
by Yakker on Dec 22, 2008 12:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Get Manny
Say whatever you want about Manny but he will make the Braves relivent again.He can put ppl in seats in the ATL, can make Chipper and Mccann better hitters then they are and so what if he decideds to take a week off, I rather him give me 35-40hrs and 110-120 rbi’s inna season then have Matt Diaz and Blanco on LF ANY DAY.
I understand the bagage and all but it makes sense. We neeed a right handed bat. Yes, is defenive sucks but he makes up for it with his bat. The guy is a winner, he took the dodgers on his back into the second round where the Braves havent been in a long time. He’s probably the best hitter in our time and he is out there to have. Get MANNY . 3 years 70mil
by AlRoBraves95 on Dec 21, 2008 5:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
23 million a year????
Yeah right! We should sign Big Tex if we can afford that!
by mvandonsel on Dec 21, 2008 8:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
$70M/3 would be a dramatic over-pay, and the worst move by Wren since becoming GM. It would be tragic.
Manny’s value for next year is around $15M, if you think his defense isn’t as bad as it was in Boston or as good as it was in L.A. If you think he will produce at an offensive level similar to his Boston production for the next two or three seasons and not worsen defensively (though he’ll be 39 in the last year of a 3-year deal), I suppose you could go as high as $45M/3, but to me that’s pretty risky.
Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball
by Yakker on Dec 22, 2008 12:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Classic avatar.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 22, 2008 1:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And it’s a signed picture, even better.
by cbwilk on Dec 22, 2008 2:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, guys
Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball
by Yakker on Dec 22, 2008 2:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Yanks will give more than that...
and still be the 3rd best team in their division!
by BBFAN46 on Dec 22, 2008 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe if we could get him on a one year deal for about 5 million. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
by heap16 on Dec 20, 2008 8:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
hey
With JJ,his era was i bit over 3,Manny has drove in a lot of runs per game.How many more game would JJ have won with Manny to give him run support? When the Braves won all the NL titles,pitching was the key,but not all the credit goes to pitching.With a 3-0 lead in the first inning,because of the power blast by Manny that drove in Yunel,McCann,or Chipper;helps JJ pitch his style of game.Or consider Smoltz on the mound,he doesnt have to throw as hard to keep them off base,less stress on his shoulder and elbows.GO GET F_ _ _ _ _ G MANNY RAMIREZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it cant hurt our record from last yaer thats for sure…
by fatazfoot on Dec 21, 2008 11:17 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Dear God...
…where do you even start with a post like this one?
by bravesfan91 on Dec 21, 2008 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You ignore…and consider yourself lucky that he didn’t advocate bringing up Heyward and Freeman in this post.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 21, 2008 12:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
/dick
"He's getting better, but he's not there yet ..."
- Bobby Cox (talking about Boyer)
by FrankyWren on Dec 22, 2008 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
(and yet such a well-informed, statistically-gifted, witty dick)
"He's getting better, but he's not there yet ..."
- Bobby Cox (talking about Boyer)
by FrankyWren on Dec 22, 2008 1:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Manny Ramirez to the Braves?
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Dec 21, 2008 1:00 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
if i don’t know what this means, does that make me an idiot, unhip, or both?
by 10-4 on Dec 22, 2008 8:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
one word five times for manny
cancer cancer cancer cancer cancer need i say more? come on can you really pay a player to play a position he cant even play. screw the hitting he is still a cancer
by bravesrbaseball on Dec 21, 2008 2:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
yeah a Cancer
Yeah Manny is a cancer who if he is motivated is the best RH hitter in baseball. He is such a cancer he has 4 world series appearances 2 world series rings and a world series MVP. Manny single handedly carried the dodgers to the NLCS, and he will be motivated to prove that he is worth the money and could be very good signing for us and make us a real team to be dealt with.
by mauck98 on Dec 21, 2008 2:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Derek Lowe, Sept ’08
30.1 IP, 17 H, 2 ER, 6 BB, 19 K, 0.59 ERA, 0.77 WHIP, .162 BAA
SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT MANNY CARRYING THE TEAM BY HIMSELF.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 21, 2008 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
is this Derek Lowe character available??
by mvandonsel on Dec 21, 2008 8:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He’s too old and he’s not a LH pitcher…sorry.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 22, 2008 1:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It was a joke....
Maybe he could learn to throw left-handed??
by mvandonsel on Dec 22, 2008 2:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hahahaha
"He's getting better, but he's not there yet ..."
- Bobby Cox (talking about Boyer)
by FrankyWren on Dec 22, 2008 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
about the defense
haters,
are there RH-power-hitting outifielders available right now that can field too? because the market looks sparse if we’re specific about what we’re looking for. Dye, a likelier option, is also going to be bad defensively. if we wanted to ignore our cleanup bat need, we could easily just play schafer and anderson in left and center, and save a bunch of money.
but the braves can’t contend like this. we need a guy with a bat like Dye (or Dunn/Burrell if we want to ignore how light we are with RH-power), who’s gonna be a liability defensively anyway. but he doesn’t make the difference that Manny does. he will not put us into the heads of our rivals.
i don’t want to see us end up with a solution like kawakami and dye, block our back-end starters from developing value, and go with lineups and rotations that both lack any chance to be strong. that type of solution will guarantee that it’s not a trainwreck perhaps, but will get us no closer to where we need to be. with Manny, you’re taking a gamble, but one where if you win, you can win big. with a two-headed solution like dye and kawakami, we’re looking at a team that simply doesn’t have the strength or upside to compete in this division.
but i understand the manny hate. he doesn’t have a great reputation right now as a personality. this is why he is within our reach. i think we need to look past the flaws this time. he’s a very special hitter, and we don’t have to commit to him for that many years. we don’t have a shot at the top of the FA most years, but here is a hidden gem for us since he’s already burned one of the big money bridges. if bobby and co. can keep him motivated, he is the ideal guy to anchor our lineup.
by dave462 on Dec 21, 2008 3:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
You realize Burrell is RH, right?
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 21, 2008 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To answer your question
Rocco B might be a good add. A lot cheaper and better defensively. Also, I’d ask what Brian Giles would cost. (I don’t give a shit about RHB/LHB.) Same with Garrett Anderson and Carl Crawford, although Tampa would probably rob Wren blind . Also, I’d throw $1M at Rob Mackowiak and see if I snag some lightning in a bottle.
But your point is valid. There aren’t too many great LFs on the free agent market. That’s OK, because in a few years Heyward should be ready. In the meantime, some Diaz/?? platoon would be fine with me.
Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball
by Yakker on Dec 22, 2008 12:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
At least make an offer Wren
Im no GM but If I were Wren right now I would make a competitive offer to Manny Ramirez. 3 @ 75 sounds about right.. Id even go as far as to make him the highest paid player in the game next year and front load his contract. 27.5 in 09, 25 in 10 and 22.5 in 11. Heres the logic. Wren has stated that he has 40-50 million to spend and one of his biggest needs is an outfielder who is….#1. Right handed #2. Will hit for power. #3 Can bat cleanup between Chip and Mac. Doesnt Manny fit those needs to a tee? Since there are no Ace type pitchers left out there, why not make the offense one of the top 5 in the majors with 1 signing, and score a ton of runs to support our less then stellar rotation? My second move would be to resign Smoltz and Glavine and if they are injured then just let the young kids pitch already. My theory is this, the Braves have some really promising young pitchers who will be filling out the rotation the next 2-3 years. With Manny in the lineup the offense will be formidable and there will be a ton of run support meaning less pressure on the young guys. With that kind of offense most of the time they will be pitching with leads. Even If Smoltz and Glavine go down with injuries bring these kids up and let them pitch for gods sake. Tampa did it and they went to the Series last year. In 2011 Manny and Chipper will retire and there will be 30-40 million dollars to sign our young homegrown talent I.E. Jurrjens, Hanson, Frenchy, etc. Also this will develop a better relationship with Borass for when it comes time to sign Jurrjens long term.
Rent your bats and Build your pitching from within.
by coxkid on Dec 21, 2008 4:56 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Again, if we could afford to pay many that type of money...
why wouldn’t we have resigned Tex?
by mvandonsel on Dec 21, 2008 8:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
awesome
Burrell is the perfect example then, of a hitter who fits for the braves in the role of that hitter we need, that costs half what Manny does. Getting Burrell would allow the braves to also get Kawakami, and make two upgrades instead of one.
But he’s terrible defensively as well, and to say that we would look fearsome with him in that spot would be a joke.
To call Manny a bad idea because of his horrible defense ignores that our other options would present the same problem.
I don’t get the Braves interest in Kawakami. His upside isn’t very high, and he could easily be one of those Japanese pitchers that doesn’t transition well. Best case scenario I don’t think he’s a big upgrade over Campillo/Morton/Reyes, and getting him steals away their opportunities to prove their value. And he’ll cost a bunch of money too, taking away our shot at having a great lineup with Manny.
To the guys who think Manny’s a bad idea, what are the other palatable options at this point? The braves have some money to spend, but no appealing guys to spend it on. Why not one of the best RH bats of all time?
by dave462 on Dec 21, 2008 5:25 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I mentioned a few options above.
Someone previously had suggested kicking the tires on Milton Bradley; that’s not a terrible idea either. I might see if I could pry Dukes away from Jim Bowden. (I’m not averse to “personalities.”) Mike Cameron would add a ton of defensive value, and he’s clearly available now that the Igawa deal seems dead. I’d give Melvin a call and see what he wants for MC. If I got really desperate (like last-call-on-a-cold-Saturday night desperate), I’d think about seeing if I could get GM Jr. from Anaheim for a live Single-A arm (with at least 50% of his salary covered), but I’d probably feel pretty shitty about it in the light o’morning.
Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball
by Yakker on Dec 22, 2008 12:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We did not go after Cameron that hard when he was a free agent what makes you think the braves will give up prospects for him. Also, he plays center not a glaring hole the Braves need to fill. Once again its a lot of Manny haters out there but Atlanta needs him. Two years Frank Wren should just blow him away. There are not any starting pitchers left that we want so why not. Then again I know there is no way this will happen so lets stop talking about it!!!!!
by That a boy on Dec 22, 2008 12:37 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Just a thought
Has anyone noticed that defense has been so underrated for so long that its now overrated? Hey Manny is a “bad” left fielder. Manny Ramirez also went ballistic on NL pitching. I don’t remember him giving away near the amount of runs that he produced
by rocket8188 on Dec 22, 2008 9:47 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Why exactly is "bad" in quotes?
Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball
by Yakker on Dec 22, 2008 5:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ignoring sample size and insanely high BABIPs must be fun…
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 22, 2008 5:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Could have sworn...
…I saw you say something very similar to that on MLBTR today.
by bravesfan91 on Dec 22, 2008 5:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was bored.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 23, 2008 9:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That happens a lot.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Dec 23, 2008 9:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Manny = Clubhouse Cancer
Bobby doesn’t want to go there. FW doesn’t want to go there. JS sure as hell doesn’t want to go there. Same as Dunn, the Braves don’t want him.
"He's getting better, but he's not there yet ..."
- Bobby Cox (talking about Boyer)
by FrankyWren on Dec 22, 2008 1:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Move FYF to left
Stick Manny in right. That might work. But dude is still a cancer.
"He's getting better, but he's not there yet ..."
- Bobby Cox (talking about Boyer)
by FrankyWren on Dec 22, 2008 1:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
huh?
if we get manny, he’d definitely be in left where the impact of his bad defense is minimized.
i understand he’s had a bad reputation recently, but can’t we count on bobby and co. to be able to handle it and get the best out of him? he didn’t have any problems in LA with Torre, and Bobby is a well respected manager among players as well.
the braves could give him a higher annual salary and sign him for two years, to be sure he would be motivated for the duration. but i don’t think manny is going to be a cancer if he comes to the braves, even for 3 years. he is going to have records to aim at, and another contract to play for.
i wouldn’t want to be manny’s last contract, but i think we’re a few years off from that
by dave462 on Dec 22, 2008 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Um
Dude … it was a joke. Sorry, I need to make my sarcasm more overt, I guess.
"He's getting better, but he's not there yet ..."
- Bobby Cox (talking about Boyer)
by FrankyWren on Dec 22, 2008 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
all we need to do..
is give Manny a 3 year 20 mil per offer thats more than ANYONE is offering
i’m sure he would take it
no one is in the need of a power bat as much as we are and Manny is perfect for this
FRANK OFFER MANNY A 3 YEAR DEAL WHILE YOUR ON VACATION!!
by bravesfan1047 on Dec 22, 2008 6:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
This reminds me.....
….please have your pets spayed or neutered folks.
by bravesfan91 on Dec 22, 2008 8:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Uh, pay attention
The Dodgers offered 2/45 with a 15 mil option for a 3rd year and Boras and Co. didn’t even bother to respond. So if they basically laughed at a 3/60 from the Dodgers why would that accept that deal from the Braves?
by scstrato on Dec 22, 2008 9:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
because HE WANTS TO PLAY FOR A BIGGER DISCIPLINE NAZI THAN TORRE!
BIG JOE SUCK ONE
by bigjoe on Dec 22, 2008 9:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
so, this has spiraled out of control pretty quickly. you all make me want to pound my face with a sledgehammer
BIG JOE SUCK ONE
by bigjoe on Dec 22, 2008 8:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
pshaw, they should be playing in the majors before they can drink. GET ON IT, WREN
BIG JOE SUCK ONE
by bigjoe on Dec 22, 2008 9:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That can be arranged
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
by royhobbs on Dec 23, 2008 8:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
be logical here
if the dodgers couldnt blow him away we cant. In recent years the dodgers have been blowing the braves away with free agents( drew and furcal twice0 WHY ENTER ANOTHER SWEEPSTAKES WE CANT WIN?
by bravesrbaseball on Dec 23, 2008 5:37 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
+1
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 23, 2008 11:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
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