At the end of a couple of curious days, during which Rafael Furcal reportedly agreed to sign with the Atlanta Braves, then resumed negotiations with the Los Angeles Dodgers (depending on one’s perspective), the free-agent shortstop was nearing an agreement Wednesday morning to return to the Dodgers.
According to sources familiar with the negotiations, talks between team owner Frank McCourt, general manager Ned Colletti and agent Arn Tellem progressed to the point both sides believed a deal would be struck.
I'm exhausted.
D-Fab also got a call from someone saying that the Dodgers were now the favorites to sign Furcal.
about 3 years ago
gondeee
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Certainly has been an interesting offseason thus far. What next?
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 12:58 PM EST reply actions
Just in - Smoltz signs with Boston
Don’t ask what’s next, please.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
Don’t joke about that…
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
Oops
This has to be very embarrasing for the Braves organization. I bet J. Shuerholz and Frank Wren are fuming right now.
Disagree
Why would Furcal care? He is about to get paid! We’ll find out later I’m sure, but sounds like Furcals agent(s) played us like a fiddle to get the Dodgers to up their offer.
He probably doesn't
Modern-day baseball lacks a modicum of heart, love for the game, and faltering dignity. Everyone’s out for money, and anyone that tries to deny it is vehemently lying through their teeth.
It’s the Braves fault, naturally. For being too old school, in every aspect of the game, from having Bobby Cox at the helm, and actually thinking gentlemens’ agreements still actually count for something other than being a topic to laugh at.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
I heard a good argument for taking the high dollar yesterday
Last year, Mike Lowell took less money to stay with Red Sox. He got hurt and didn’t play much last year. Now, if Boston signs Teixeira, Lowell will likely be shipped out of town. So he kinda screwed himself for taking the discount.
EXACTLY!!!
Sometimes it really is a shame to look at something that used to be a beautiful sport and realize that it is now more of a business making MACHINE than game.
Baseball has always been and will always be a business
period.
Let’s not forget Babe Ruth skipped out on the Red Sox a few times because he wanted his salary doubled. Greed is not a modern invention by any stretch.
by BraveBronco0121 on Dec 17, 2008 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
I can't refute you
But can you honestly think that things aren’t nearly as cerebral, misleading, deceptive, and conniving than it was in 1920 when the Babe was actively playing?
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
JS wouldn't put up with this shit
FW is everybody’s bitch this offseason.
Fookie, go drunk drive off a cliff you scroungy little fuck.
Questioning Frank Wren
At what point to we start to question FW’s ability as a GM? I know he was JS’s hand picked successor, but so far this season he has shown an amazing lack of ability to close deals, be they trades or free agent signings. I’d like to think that he’s trying to hold a hard line and not give in to bad agreements, but at some point we either have to write off the upcoming season ala the New York Knicks and make it known we are going big in 2010, or finally start to concede to some less than perfect conditions.
It’s not Wren’s fault that:
1) Towers didn’t accept what was widely accepted to be a fair-or-better offer for Peavy
2) Burnett didn’t accept a fair offer that wasn’t much different from what he got in NY
3) Furcal (and/or his agents) backed out of this alleged “gentleman’s agreement”
Wren has been right there with everything. Be mad if he’s not trying, or trying for the wrong players, but don’t get mad just because everything doesn’t go the way we want it to.
+1
With Burnett, part of it was Burnett not wanting to be the #1 and another part is NY being closer to his hot ex-stripper wife in Baltimore.
I’m shocked this post didn’t include a picture.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
I’ll agree that he’s trying, as this is more activity than we’ve seen out of the Braves’ front office in a long time. That said, I can try all I want to be a starting pitcher for the team, but I just don’t have the talent to do that. I’m not calling for Wren’s head, just saying that if this offseason is a failure given the stated goals, next offseason needs to bring something strong to the table.
I agree that FW hasn’t reached his stated goals – but the offseason isn’t anywhere near over yet. If the start of the regular season arrives, and we are still short a SP and LF, then will be with you in beginning to question his abilities.
My point is, there’s still plenty of time. A trade or two and/or a signing or two, and there will be people calling him a genius.
The only questionable move that I see is his non-movement towards Dunn. But hey, maybe he knows something that I don’t.
Oh, and I don’t buy the “he’s a lefty thing”, cause we were interested in Ibanez too.
by soup du jour on Dec 17, 2008 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
One official involved in the Rafael Furcal negotiations drew this comparison. “First, Furcal was dating the A’s,” the official said. “Then, on Monday night, he got engaged to the Braves. And now, the ex-husband — the Dodgers — has come back into the picture.”
So in other words…Furcal is the abused ex-girlfriend who has no spine.
BIG JOE SUCK ONE
It was never anyone other than the Dodgers
Flirting with Oakland, and allegedly faking a commitment with the Braves only made the Dodgers realize what they were on the cusp of losing, and pushed their hand.
Personally, I think he was foolish to turn down a fairly generous offer from Oakland, and an even better offer from the Braves, but I guess he just doesn’t want to leave Los Angeles, which is the only reason I think he did this whole debacle.
But if he thinks that the Dodgers will actually exercise the option in 2011, he’s got another thing coming. Barring serious regression in Chin-Lung Hu, he won’t be needed in 11, let alone 10.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
OT: Baldelli misdiagnosed, disease actually "highly treatable"
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/12/rocco-baldelli.html
He’s not the cleanup hitter we need, but I’m a lot more interested in him now, knowing he won’t miss every other game. Get the Woonsocket Rocket.
I don’t get why everyone is in love with Dunn. Apparently McCann isn’t qualified to hit clean up, yet he slugged 10 points higher last season than Dunn. Oh yea and he struck out 100 less times than Dunn. Pass on Dunn.
The fact that McCaan slugged that high is a testament to what a terrific offensive season he had. With that being said, Dunn had a .258 BABIP so chances are the numbers he put up last year were worse than they should have been. Dunn also walked like 75 more times than Heap did (counting IBB), so bringing up K’s is pointless unless you’re going to bring up BB’s too.
If that’s your argument on passing on Dunn it’s incredibly weak.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
The .236 avg (career of .247) is not ideal for a clean up hitter. I understand his BB drives his OBP up, but hits are better than walks, a walk doesn’t drive in a RISP. Also Dunn struggled big time against lefties with a .195 avg with his OBP being 50 points lower, where as McCann OBP and avg are almost the same vs. RHP and LHP. That being said, I wouldn’t mind having Dunn, but I think the price tag will be too high and think McCann is a better fit hitting behind Chipper.
1. BA is a terrible way to judge a player’s offensive ability.
2. As long as you do not produce an out at the plate, who really cares whether it’s a hit or a walk? For example:
Last season
Dunn: 651 PAs / 122 BB + 13 IBB + 122 H = Not making an out in 39% of his PAs
McCann: 573 PAs / 57 BB + 4 IBB + 153 H = Not making an out in 37% of his PAs
It’s very close, I understand, but I’m trying to prove to you that a walk is no worse than a hit.
3. Dunn had an insanely low .233 BABIP against LHers last season. You have to expect that number to bounce back this year. McCann had a .331 BABIP against LHers last season. That’s above average, so you should expect to see that number dip slightly this season.
I’m not trying to bash McCann in any way. I love the kid. But this hatred for Dunn because of a low BA and strikeouts is not warranted.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
Walks also do not put any pressure on the defense, so no chance of an error or extra-base, and do not advance the runner from first to third or second to home. Therefore, walks are less valuable than a base hit – so it does matter.
Well, if you want to play that game…you’re going to tell me that the extra man on base doesn’t put more pressure on the pitcher as he is facing the next batter? Across the league, BA and OPS rose last season when runners were on base as opposed to a bases empty situation.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
It does with some pitchers – some hate it, some don’t care, and some thrive on it. It also depends if it’s a speedy runner and Dunn is not fast – Dunn will only put pressure on some pitchers. BA and OPS arguably rise with runners on because if a pitcher is sucking it up to put runners on, he’ll likely suck it up with the next hitter.
Runner on third and two outs, you’d rather have a walk than a base-hit? You wouldn’t care if you had a .000/.400 or a .400/.400? I like Dunn, I hope the Braves sign him and I’m not saying he sucks. His walks are definitely valuable, but walks and hits are definitely not interchangeable.
“Some”
“Some”
“Some”
“Depends”
“Arguably”
“Likely”
Please stop.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
Am I supposed to get upset?
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
The real point is that when runners are on base, a hit does far more damage than a walk. Unless the bases are loaded, a walk doesn’t drive in a run, and what is the clean up hitter suppose to do? Drive in runs. Even if the bases are loaded, a walk would score 1 run and a hit would typically score at least 2.
Do you think this is news to me? Did I ever say that a walk is better at driving in runs than a hit? Nope. I said that a walk and a hit both accomplish the most important thing a batter can do…not get out.
Please stop with all the RBI nonsense. Joe Carter drove in 115 RBI with an OPS+ of 85 back in 1990. That’s terrible.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
Fine, but as far as I’m concerned, I’ll take a hit over a walk. The point of baseball is to score more runs than the other team, so therefore a hit > a walk.
I am not trying to downplay walks, but you can’t interchange a walk with a hit, it doesn’t work that way.
So…Ichiro is a better cleanup hitter than Adam Dunn?
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
well thats what you’re saying. you’d rather have a guy with a higher average than a guy who walks a lot.
BIG JOE SUCK ONE
I’m all for the OBP, but I think a guy who hits .300 and has a OBP of .400 is better than a .200/.400 guy.
who wouldn’t? THE OBP IS THE SAME.
i’d rather have a 250/400 guy than a 300/300 guy
BIG JOE SUCK ONE
I think the main point is that it is irrelevant as long as you’re not making an out.
If you’re not making an out at the same rate as another player (what OBP is all about), then both players are equally productive.
by get swoll yunel on Dec 17, 2008 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
Say what?
So we want a lineup full of Francouers?
by get swoll yunel on Dec 17, 2008 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
+1
Miss that site…
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
not if the 200 guy has a SLG of something like 500, while the 300 guy has one of about 350. SEE: blanco, gregor
BIG JOE SUCK ONE
I don't know where to put this!
But essentially some of you are saying Adam Dunn as .240/.380/.500 is inferior to Adam Dunn at .300/.370/.500. In that case, you are valuing outs more than walks. The difference between an out and a walk is MUCH greater than the difference between a single and a walk.
Also keep in mind that slugging percentage is independent of OBP and walks do not count toward slugging. Low average, same slugging is more extra base hits than high average, same slugging. .240/.380/.500 isn’t much different from .380/.380/.500 because of the extra base hits. And you can’t compare .000/.400 to .400/.400 because the first player has a 0 slugging and the second player would be slugging .400 if all he hit was singles.
There’s also such a thing as pitching around a player. You can’t tell it on the boxscore, but it’s not like the pitcher actually gave the guy a chance to get a hit (except Miguel Cabrera).
And with people like Jeff Keppinger, Paul Bako, and Edwin Encarnacion batting behind Dunn it probably happened alot.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
“liberate tutame, ex inferis”
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
i haven’t taken a latin class in 5 years, so i’m a little rusty…but yeah, i get you.
BIG JOE SUCK ONE
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
This is actually a good point that I hadn’t realized. Dunn’s about a .255-.260 hitter when his BABIP is close to normal. I guess the problem is his career BABIP has been pretty consistently below what is normal.
I’d still like to get him, though.
by get swoll yunel on Dec 17, 2008 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
I know, right? I noticed that too. His BABIP was pretty close to normal in 2007, but in 2005, 2006, and 2008 it was incredibly low. I don’t have his LD% on me…but why do you think that is? Lots of high fly balls?
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 5:17 PM EST up reply actions
That’s really the only explantation I could come up with. Dunn is a strange hitter because of how strongly he resembles the “three true outcomes” player. I mean the dude only hit 19 more singles than he did HRs last year.
by get swoll yunel on Dec 17, 2008 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
Flyball machine!
His LD% isn’t too high either, if I recall. HRs also don’t count toward BABIP so that’s 40 hits a year that aren’t included in his BABIP.
It's not that McCann isn't qualified to hit clean up
It’s that if McCann hits clean up, someone else still has to hit fifth. Strikeouts don’t matter for hitters if they walk.
I’d be okay with that at this point. Don’t see it happening though, unless the comments the Braves had made this offseason were just a hilarious smokescreen.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
My server
Went down, so I can’t post the OPS image I made for him when he’s starting to get a little argumentative with others.
It also doesn’t help that there was a mass exodus of people who came in with opinions like finely pointed spears who argue more for the sake of argument rather than actual discussion based on the way they repeat their statements on a daily basis, regardless of the words and lessons taught the prior day.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
You sure you got the right guy?
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
Plus....
There’s the intangible fact that we probably freaked out Kelly Johnson and Yunel with the leaked rumor. Now they know for sure that (1) they are actively being shopped or (2) they might have to move to another position.
Who cares? If they just now realized that they were being shopped then they have been hiding in a cave. All off-season we’ve heard their names batted around for a pitcher. Who ever leaked it out of the Braves front office that we were close to a deal made the team look bad. If the agent is telling the truth that is.
Irresponsible journalism.
Frank Wren needs to find out who broke the story and question them on the source. Don’t care if your not suppose to give up the source. There are ways to make someone comply and they happen everyday. Unless it was him or indirectly him of course. It’s all over the news and it makes the Braves look like fucking idiots that don’t have the ability to even bring home one of there own when their the high bidders. We need to wait it out but it will not look good on us if he goes to the Dodgers.
This corporate ownership is giving us a dark cloud with FA. Bobby Cox uncertainty is also a dark cloud. All aspects of the entire organization (except farm system) is a big ?
So you don't think we are the punch line of any jokes because of the furcal deal?
There’s absolutely no reason that everyone was saying and broadcasting that furcal was coming to Atlanta unless it was going to happen. It’s irresponsible no matter how you look at it. I understand what it means to break a story but it just seems that someone really jumped the gun on this one. We look like a huge ass.
Bobby uncertainty is not helping. I know were not saying the “R” word but it looks like it to many people outside of our community. A older FA wants to compete and I think Furcal is an example of that. Corporate thing was a little much. I was just pissed off when I saw what was happening with furcal. I just miss Ted.
Seriously dude
Some of your comments are just ridiculous.
I don’t think any players out there are too considered with playing for “corporate” ownership. As long as they are getting paid, it shouldn’t make any difference for them.
by get swoll yunel on Dec 17, 2008 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
Corporate was stupid
Furcal pissed me off and just starting typing emotions. I miss Ted. See above comments.
Back off
You just pounce on any little miscue. I’m obviously not as into this as you but you need to breath a little. I think this place is great and I’ve never really been into blogging before. I’m learning the rules and slowly understanding how to present the arguments. Your sarcasm’s funny though. Don’t get me wrong.
Bigjoe isn’t even in midseason form yet. You should see him when Manny Acosta coughs up the lead in the late innings after our starter pitches a gem. Now that’s classic Bigjoe.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
The good thingi s
Bigjoe makes all sorts of wagers that “if Boyer/Acosta/Ohman gets out of this, I’ll buy everyone a round”
Eventually, we’ll get him to cough up these free drinks, but it’s fun to remind him of his mounting debts.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
haha, april can’t come soon enough. I may have to tag along for this B-more trip, although I would probably be way too drunk to drive home after the game.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
i DEMAND you come to bmore. it will be shenanigans. and i will spend too much money at the ravens pro store
BIG JOE SUCK ONE
Haha, you know off the top of your head when the series is?
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 8:37 PM EST up reply actions
june 12-14. WEEKEND SERIES. week before my birthday.
this is not ending well at all.
BIG JOE SUCK ONE
Oh, jesus that could be bad…I may have to just get a hotel room in Baltimore. No chance I want to drive home for close to any hour after those games.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 8:53 PM EST up reply actions
So, is that the Braves’ fault? I guess I’m asking, do guys blame themselves when they have been teased, or do they blame the woman?
Either way, we still dont have anyone other than Vasquez at the moment
by bravesguy311 on Dec 17, 2008 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
Well...
there was the HJ-that-ultimately-led-nowhere of a failed trade for Bonds in 1992. Was that smeared all over the press then? I was 6. I don’t remember.
by Rafael Belliard's SLG % on Dec 17, 2008 3:18 PM EST reply actions
LOL @ Smoltz's Beard
making braves fans pround on mlbtraderumors.com comments
What’d I do wrong this time?
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
haha
I chuckled when I recognized your name and then laughed seeing how you broke down KJ and Prado’s stats. it was a ‘you tell em!’ LOL. … not a bad LOL.
Haha, had me worried for a second. Good to see you again.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
Haha
I don’t know how you can put up with arguing with those guys on MLB trade rumors. I think I gave up when people kept insisting Dunn was no good because he didn’t put the ball in play enough and struck out too much. I guess they want Juan Pierre and his 30 strikeouts a year batting clean up.
Yeah, it’s rough over there. There’s a couple people who know what they’re talking about though, and I was actually able to make an informed correction thanks to the WAR knowledge you passed on to me earlier.
So thanks for that.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
whatever you do, don’t talk to phillies fans who are convinced howard was robbed of MVP. and that rollins was a GOOD CHOICE last year because of that 20×4 nonsense
thank god i don’t post on THAT board anymore
BIG JOE SUCK ONE
Anyone who argues that Howard should have won the MVP gets the:
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
“Talking Chop: An Atlanta Braves Blog where we can argue about anything 2+2 does not equal four bitch”
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
yeah...
Guys like Burnett and Furcal want attention but they don’t want the kind of attention that coming to a smaller market team like the Braves would yield (compared to larger markets like Boston, New York, and Philadelphia). That’s why they stay in big cities where other superstars (Manny in L.A. and C.C. and A-Rod in New York) take all the pressure off them. The Braves aren’t known for throwing a lot of money around so when these guys take big contracts and come here, there’s a lot of pressure.
The Furcal deal pisses me off but that’s the way it goes. His agent played it the right way and got what he wanted. Somebody’s gotta go home alone.
haha, wow…
Well…we need a new topic to argue about.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
I'd say hot baseball wives
But somehow, I can honestly see people spinning that into a 100+ comment argument, with bigjoe getting called a dick by no less than three users by thread’s end.
No wonder nobody likes you, Tuttle... everything's a (Pujols) damn debate.
Now What?
We lose out on a japanese import, Waste valuable time on Peavy, Waste more time on Burnette, and get played by fookie for more money. Are any Free agents left?
whats with the sudden influx of people spelling burnett wrong? thats almost as bad as people spelling parr wrong
BIG JOE SUCK ONE
Not sure how but I must have skimmed over your comment on MLBTR until just now. Good stuff, man.
I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.
by Smoltz's Beard on Dec 17, 2008 7:21 PM EST up reply actions
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