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Around SBN: On Hazards And Hulks And Tigers, Oh My!

Doubts About Jake Peavy

The recent discussions about Jake Peavy have gotten me a-thinkin; and a-worryin. I thought it would be best to get these worries and doubts down in print so people can tell me if I'm bonkers or if my concerns are valid. Here goes:

(1) The Padres willingness to trade Peavy. Maybe it seems like more of an over-eagerness to trade him. Yes, he is their best trading chip and they are hoping to cash him out for several building blocks, but isn't Peavy himself the perfect building block for a young team? He will only be 28 in June of next year and is signed for five more years. Moving Peavy is a sign by the Padres to their fans that their "rebuilding" will take more than a few years. Otherwise, why trade away someone you're touting as an ace starter? So perhaps there's another reason...

(2) Questionable mechanics = future injury. Peavy spent some time on the disabled list this year with a strained elbow, and that elbow will be the topic of much conversation in the next few weeks. Some think that Peavy's arm action will eventually lead to injury (hat tip: VictorW):

Jake Peavy's arm action is borderline to bad, as the clip below demonstrates.

The problem is that Jake Peavy has a significant Inverted V in his arm action. This hurts his timing and is one cause of his elbow problems. It will also set him up for Rotator Cuff and Labrum problems in a few years.

Video_pitching_jakepeavy_cf_001_medium

First, notice Jake Peavy's somewhat unusual arm action. Notice how, after he breaks his hands, Jake Peavy leads with his Pitching Arm Side (PAS) elbow and ends up with his PAS elbow quite high. This affects his timing and makes it harder for him to get his PAS forearm up into the proper position at the moment his shoulders start to rotate.

Second, notice how Jake Peavy, rather than finishing with his glove at his Glove Side (GS) pec, flies open with his glove and finishes with his glove out to the side and away from his body. The problem with flying open with the glove is that it will tend to slow down the rotation of the shoulders and can make a pitcher less efficient.

Whether that's nonsense or the gospel I'm sure there are many scouts out there who feel the same way, but there are also just as many who feel differently. I guess if a team were afraid a player might get injured in the future they would never make a trade, and we know the Braves have never been scared of that. But in this situation when the cost is so high...

(3) The cost and the return. We all know that any top player will cost a lot in terms of talent in return. The cost here reportedly begins with the Braves top pitching prospect Tommy Hanson, and from San Diego's perspective it should. If they are giving up their best pitcher, why shouldn't they receive our best pitching prospect in return. Any Braves fan who thinks that Tommy Hanson is not the centerpiece of this trade is fooling themselves.

So the base of this deal is Peavy for Hanson, but the Padres want another one or two young players to build around; enter Yunel Escobar and/or Kelly Johnson. Is it the intention of the Braves to completely replace their (better than average) middle infield to solve their starting pitching woes? It sounds like we would be replacing one problem for another.

Yes, the rumor out there is that if a team wants Jake Peavy then they'll have to take Khalil Greene, his contract, and his Francoeurian mediocrity as well. But Greene doesn't solve our problems at the plate, if anything, he makes them worse and less competative...

(4) What will make the Braves competative. The real delusion here is that we are once again succumbing to the win-now-build-later philosophy. For whatever reason(s) the mix of players we've had the last few years hasn't worked. But do we keep plodding foward adding one or two pieces at a time or are we a team at a stage where we need to add multiple pieces and add from within?

The youth movement of this team begins again this year with Tommy Hanson and Jordan Schafer. After them the prospective waves of talent should come with regularity. I'm not diluted into thinking we should keep every prosepct, quite oppositely I think many of these guys on the farm are in the perfect position to be used as trade bait, but not Schafer and Hanson. Tommy has given every indication over the past two years that he is on a road to the show, and not just as an average player, but as a star. He's different from many of the pitchers who have come up through our system the last few years (James, Davies, Reyes, Morton, Parr). Hanson has that bulldog mentality of an ace and the stuff to go with it.

(5) Jake Peavy is an ace pitcher. He is the 2007 Cy Young award winner, but that was the only year in which he's ever recieved any votes for Cy Young. There was some talk about the discrepency between his home/road ERA splits last year -- he had a 1.74 ERA at home and a 4.28 ERA on the road. While that jumps out as something of a red flag, in previous years his home/road splits have been much closer, with only 2006 and 2008 showing noticable seperation. Homeruns allowed on the road and at home, while showing that he gave up three times as many on the road in 2008, have also been farily close in previous years.

When looking at his starts on the road in 2008, there were several that were not good where he gave up four runs and did not go deep into the game, but even with those rough starts, 70 percent of his starts were still quality starts -- that's about even with Tim Hudson last year, and he was considered an ace. My doubts about Peavy really being an ace starter seem to be unfounded, esepcially since his home/away splits seem to be more statistical noise than an actual Achilles heel.

So, that's a lot of debating back and forth and a fair measure of self-doubt. Interestingly, Jake Peavy started the same about of games (27) that Tim Hudson started in 2004, the year we acquired him. There were concerns then about Hudson's health as he had spent a month on the disabled list with a strained left oblique, but it wasn't an arm injury like Peavy's.

As much as I've talked myself into hating this trade in this piece, I'm sure I could talk myself into liking it some other day. I suppose we have to see the grand scheme of Frank Wren at the end of the off-season to really know if this potential move is just the centerpiece in a number of different moves, but I still don't like it.

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Talking yourself out of it.

I think the reward is well worth the risk in Peavy’s case, but the injury problem does give me pause. We’ve been snake bitten so many times in the past few years with Hampton, Smoltz, Glavine, Hudson, Hampton, Hampton, and Hampton.

But about the Hanson bit, I really do think that we can get by without trading him if we give up Escobar, while giving up some of our ML talent and Rohrborugh as the replacement. I think the real question is who would you rather give? Hanson, who has the goods but hasn’t proven it above AA (but there’s no indication that he can’t), or Escobar who has proven it at the ML level at a very difficult position, above average to boot. For me, its a tough call. Which is why I’m glad I’m not the GM.

by soup du jour on Oct 21, 2008 10:46 AM EDT reply actions  

We aren’t trading Escobar. You simply don’t part with a young, talented shortshop like him unless you have another one like him waiting in the wings which we don’t.

by dwbrave on Oct 21, 2008 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is the kind of shit that pisses me off. Back up your claim with evidence, how do you know this for sure? Making definitive statements like this without proof makes you look unreliably stupid.

by scstrato on Oct 21, 2008 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

1. Definitely not stupid.

2. Couldn’t care less what pisses you off.

3. How do I know? I have a brain. Try using yours and you’d come to the same conclusion.

by dwbrave on Oct 21, 2008 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the price is too high

I would trade everything for Lincecum though. Maybe FW will pull some trade out of left field.

Lincecum = young Maddux

by TradeAndruw on Oct 21, 2008 11:57 AM EDT reply actions  

not to disagree because i think ur saying they were are(were) on a path to career success and at a ridiculously high level. however these two are about as different in terms of ptiching as two can possibly be. their motion is completely different, and their ptiches are differnt. even their apparent philosophies on pitching are different. Im not tryin to attack you, in reality im trying to start a convo about which pitcher Lincecum can be compared to, there are/have been comparisons to Pedro and i think those are much closer, albeit not perfect.

"We win today, that's two in a row... if we win tomorrow, that's called a winning streak. It has happened before..."

by Swo12bv on Oct 21, 2008 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

lincecum is a horrible comp to maddux since he walks a lot of people and strikes out a lot of people.

Following the Braves...one long hard drink at a time.

by bigjoe on Oct 21, 2008 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not comparing pitching styles here, I just love Lincecum and think he could put up Maddux-in-his-prime numbers. I honestly can’t think of anyone similar to Maddux in terms of super-smart, control, cut fastball pitchers.

Basically, I just want a new “Big-3” staff in ATL. Easier said than done obviously.

by TradeAndruw on Oct 21, 2008 5:35 PM EDT reply actions  

Jesus.

I’ve said it before and I say it again: we don’t need to go all out to get Peavy. Put your best offer out there from the start and if someone goes beyond that, they can have him. Schafer, two pitching prospects not named Hanson or Teheran (not my choice, but the organization views him as untouchable) and two guys like Lillibridge and B. Jones does it for me.

Here we go again: http://thefulldeck.blogspot.com/

by ejruiz on Oct 21, 2008 11:30 PM EDT reply actions  

amen

i agree with ejruiz completely. no hanson nuff said

by ATLBravesYouthMovement on Oct 22, 2008 3:02 AM EDT reply actions  

Escobar

I think we would definitely consider trading Escobar.

- Dave O’brien mentioned that he definitely has a temper in the clubhouse that strikes me as “un-Braves like”
- His numbers regressed last year compared to the second half numbers he posted two years ago. Obviously his injuries contributed to this, but the braves expected him to improve on his power and stolen base numbers, which didn’t really happen.
- We obviousy would have to find another short-stop via other methods. Maybe (1) another short deal for Renteria or (2) include K. Green in the deal for Peavy.

I agree with “scstrato” that people should not make definitive statements (i.e., we are NOT trading so-and-so) in these blogs. We have no clue what Wren will do, and he is much smarter and much more well informed on Braves players than we are.

by Dandrews on Oct 22, 2008 2:07 PM EDT reply actions  

A thousand times no to Greene..

..talk about down grading. It’s too lop sided, gut the farm and get weaker at SS. Yes the pitching improves, but you just don’t trade a young good defensive short stop like Escobar, who was only second to Jimmy Rollins in the Majors in Defense.

by RainDelay on Oct 22, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

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