Alongside my other arguments against the trade, I'll defend Devine here. Any middle reliever who can dominate against right handed hitters can pitch reliably in the major leagues. Not only is Devine reliable against righties, he's flat out dominant against them.

I'll also point to sample sizes for the big league numbers. Gondee points out he has 19.2 major league innings under his belt. It would be absolutely stupid to judge him based on those numbers.

And I'll also say any pitcher who can throw three pitches for strikes can pitch in a major league rotation these days. No one's saying Richmond will be a Greg Maddux, but he could be a Carlos Silva (both have not so dominant stuff, but throw strikes and don't walk batters).

Kotsay's defense is only valuable when he's healthy, and his checkered injury history is not a good sign in that regards. Not to mention the fact that he is on a very steady decline, his number having fallen in each of the last three years. I'd be surprised if his OPS+ was above 75 next year. He's an offensive black hole.

Devine would prove to be a valuable piece of a bullpen full of question marks.  We've got Moylan (who is bound to get figured out sooner or later, and was used a ton by Cox last year), Soriano, Gonzalez (huge question mark as to his return time), and....?? The bullpen gave the Braves major issues two years ago, and was a big part of their demise.

Devine was definitely a big piece to give up for a guy who we don't really need and won't effectively fill any gap. If you guys are looking for an all-defense, no-offense, light hitting CF, look no further than Blanco. I still think this is a terrible trade, as it was both costly and unneeded.

In another post I reference what Baseball America's final take on the trade was:

"This deal fits the needs for both teams. A healthy Kotsay would be a big upgrade over Anderson and a nice one-year bridge to center-field prospect Jordan Schafer, and he didn't cost the Braves a top prospect. From the A's standpoint, they weren't going to win this year or re-sign Kotsay afterward, so picking up a couple of arms for him makes sense."

And now here is what Baseball Prospectus has to say (Gondee yelled at me about posting full articles, so I will merely quote this time) in regards to the A's:

"Devine needed a change of scenery, and his basic package of gifts--a sweet sinker and functional breaking stuff--is all still there. It's very believable that he could step right into camp and win a high-leverage set-up role in the A's pen. Richmond's your basic strike-throwing machine with low or average velocity on his fastball, supplementing what he lacks in Juggs action with a nice curve and change. The A's were apparently initially after Kris Medlen as the second pitcher in the deal, but the Braves wisely didn't entertain that suggestion."

And now the Braves:

"Healthy, Kotsay's an adequate center fielder, equally mediocre in covering the gaps and deterring baserunners with his arm. That's not a slight--mediocrity at a key defensive position has value. If healthy, that's one thing Kotsay brings to the table, but ideally, you'd also want this notionally healthy Kotsay to be able to contribute at the plate as well, and that's possible--again, as something of a mediocrity. In his last five years, he's produced three EqAs in the .260s--the definition of adequacy--one above that in 2004 (.288), and one well below (.214), in last year's bad back-shortened season. You know where this is going: a healthy Kotsay might put up an EqA in the .260s. That's definitely worth spending a couple of million on if you're an aspiring contender, but it probably isn't worth a couple of million and a worthwhile reliever. That's the upside; the downside is that you're left naked with a broke-back center fielder, no protection at the position, down a few million you might have used to buy an in-season fix, and still counting the days until Schafer's ready."

The one quote from the article that I think many people on here have brought up is this:

 "In that context, acquiring Kotsay came at some real cost; if the Braves really didn't want to trust in Blanco or Anderson, they could have signed somebody like Corey Patterson to a one-year deal for something in the $2-3 million range, and they'd still have Devine, and they'd still be observing their pre-booked journey to the Age of Schafer in the very near future. The difference between that option and this plan of action is whether you have some faith in Kotsay's upside and ability to contribute to a contender this season, accepting for the sake of argument for the moment that Patterson doesn't even have another 2006 in him."

Delete it if you need to Gondee, I'm not sure where to draw the line when hijacking from other websites.  Sorry!

Strikeouts
A+: 35 K in 23.1 IP (13.52 K/9)
AA: 99 K in 66 IP (13.50 K/9)
AAA: 28 K in 23 IP (10.96 K/9)
MLB: 20 K in 19.2 IP (9.18 K/9)
Conclussion: These numbers are filthy, period.  Despite his weak pruduction otherwise at the ML-level, he's still striking out over a guy per inning, which is very solid.  This is the foundation of a dominant reliever/closer.

Walks
A+: 14 BB in 23.1 IP (5.41 BB/9)
AA: 29 BB in 66 IP (3.95 BB/9)
AAA: 8 BB in 23 IP (3.13 BB/9)
MLB: 22 BB in 19.2 IP (10.10 BB/9)
Conclussion: His demotions to High-A were for physical and mental rehab, so I take that with a grain of salt.  Obviously his ML stats has been about as terrible as possible, but his AA/AAA record (far more innings pitched) give you a better idea of his abilities.  He could stand improvement, but his control is not as bad as you might imagine.

Hits
A+: 13 H in 23.1 IP (5.02 H/9)
AA: 47 H in 66 IP (6.41 H/9)
AAA: 19 H in 23 IP (7.43 H/9)
MLB: 21 H in 19.2 IP (9.61 H/9)
Conclussion: This is my real concern.  As he moves up, he becomes more hittable, but this does not mean he'll be a bust.  Plenty of guys get by with bad hit rates and even low K rates to boot, but he'll need a good defense behind him.  As I'll continue below, he seems to be good at getting out of jams.

Earned Runs
A+: 12 ER in 23.1 IP (4.68 ERA)
AA: 15 ER in 66 IP (2.05 ERA)
AAA: 7 ER in 23 IP (2.74 ERA)
MLB: 15 ER in 19.2 IP (6.86 ERA)
Conclussion: His ERA always seems to be low for his peripherals and this actually looks like a trend after 140+ innings pitched.  

Home Runs
A+: 1 HR in 23.1 IP (0.39 HR/9)
AA: 4 HR in 66 IP (0.55 HR/9)
AAA: 1 HR in 23 IP (0.39 HR/9)
MLB: 3 HR in 19.2 IP (1.37 HR/9)
Conclussion: Here's the worst misconception.  His limited time in the majors has skewed this, but he's actually quite good at keeping the ball in the park.  This is also key for a closer-type.

CONCLUSSION: Devine is just entering his Age 24 season and has been horribly mismanaged.  He was rushed in 2005, played hurt in 2006 and was shuttled back-and-forth between the majors and minors without apparent reason.  In a micro sense, he is obviously the type that should come in at the beggining of innings, not with runners already on.  To me, he looks like a future dominant reliever that should still become a closer-type.  The Braves messed up with Joey every step of the way and we will regret giving him away for a one-year rental of the ghost of Mark Kotsay.

At first, it appeared that the initial take on this Kotsay trade for the majority of TC readers was that of disappointment and resent. In his latest post here, gondeee, much like the rest of us loyal Braves fans, is trying to rationalize and justify the deal from Atlanta's standpoint, by suggesting that Devine and Richmond were over-"hyped", especially by Laz-E-Boy reclining, remote channel surfing, internet blogging general manager wannabes like ourselves.(Guilty!)

However, I think we should focus on a different angle to this: the current market. And the prime example would be comparing this deal to another trade recently made in which the Reds dealt centerfielder Josh Hamilton to the Rangers for two young pitchers, righty Edinson Volquez and LHP Danny Ray Herrera.

Granted, Hamilton is younger and cheaper than Kotsay, but even without the drug issues, he is still just as injury prone, as we saw last season when he was only healthy enough to play 90 games. I would assume their offensive statistics would be comparable; I'd give an edge to Hamilton in the power category but Kotsay should hit for a higher average and get on base more often. Defensively, when healthy of course, Kotsay would definitely be the superior outfielder.

I'm not sure where Volquez and Herrera ranked in the Rangers organization, but I read where Baseball America projects Volquez to be a decent 4th, maybe #3, starter and Herrera could be a useful bullpen piece. Sounds similar to the package of Devine and Richmond which we gave up for Kotsay.

Now, I'm not suggesting we should have traded for Hamilton; on the contrary, after seeing what was available on the free agent market and the kind of money they were getting, plus without any other desirable CF on the trading block, and knowing that the Braves only need one year before Jordan Schafer is hopefully ready, Kotsay seems to be the perfect fit. And, using the Hamilton deal as a measuring stick, we gave up what appears to be fair market value to get him.

We should trade some prospects to LA for Andruw Jones and cash.

joey devine is still very very young. And while a lot of people on here get hyped about the "prosect" status of players, its almost pointless. You put a player in your top 5 prospect list and he's golden in your eyes. Then he gets to the bigs and gets a pathetically small 19 innings in, then you want to look at that like its his legacy in the big leagues. Look at jo jo's stats in the bigs..He got 50 plus innings this year (starting and coming out of the bullpen) but didnt put up anything special..That to me shows where priorities lie with the braves (the fact that in 3 seasons they can't get joey 20 innings).
And what about everyone's initial reactions to this trade? Calling for wrens head.. Then you read a guy on baseball prospectus or whatever that crap is and its like, "oh, well, I guess its not so bad if you put it that way". Are you serious? Are you informed about a player and then get pissed cause he's traded? Or do you just want something to complain about?? To you who had such strong opinions at first, why the hell do they change because of this goober's report?? I'm sorry, but anyone who had richmond in the top 15 prospects in the organization doesn't have a clue. Everything about him is average (except his stats, which are pretty good)..But just the fact that goldstein ranks a player that high, then turns around and puts him in the "releiver" category shouts to me that he needs to just stop writing. Its great for everyone to pick up the baseball america or log in and check the writeups on the young talent, but c'mon..how many heyward articles to we need to know the kid's good? Or that schafer is good? Or that rohrbough has nasty stuff?? I've been around the game long enough to know that baseball america puts out so much hype on guys that when people go see the players that they read about they agree even if they really don't agree. It bucks the crap out of me how fringe prospects get no credit, while the guy 3 spots up gets all this hype. This to me is the ultimate proof that if you read something that one of these writers says, its always going to influence even the strongest opinion, and thats a shame because it takes away your own ability to judge talent and make your own predictions..I can't believe we traded devine, It was STUPID. So many people base their rankings of players based on minor league stats (obvious case here is richmond). Joey gets 19 innings in the big leagues and you doubters say "told you so" C'mon. 19 Innings!! Do you think Brandon Jones should get sent down, or sammons because they're not living up to expectations after their limited service in the big leagues? don't even answer that because i'm terrified of reading some of this crap

....that the Braves brass thinks more highly of Blaine Boyer, Phil Stockman, Manny Acosta, and Zach Schreiber than they thought of Joey Devine and Jose Ascanio.   The organization had  concerns about Devine's and Ascanio's command and control, although both young relief pitchers have pretty good stuff.

It's also obvious that the organization is looking at Jair Jurrjens, Jo Jo Reyes, Cole Rohrbough, Tommy Hansen, and Jeff Locke, and they just don't see a place on Atlanta's 40 man roster in future seasons for Jamie Richmond.  Richmond was virtually given away as an add-in in the Kotsay deal because he had no future in Atlanta due to numbers.  

Thus, Richmond, Devine, and Ascanio have been used as trade bait in the offseason because they weren't in Atlanta's picture.  

When you add Kyle Davies, Matt Harrison, Neftali Feliz, and Beau Jones to this list, the Braves have been more willing than most other major league franchises to deal young pitching to address needs by acquiring veterans.  Going farther back in time, the same philosophy was employed with Adam Wainwright, Jason Marquis, Jose Capellan, and so forth.  In this market, young pitching tends to command a greater premium than at most other times in recent history.  It almost looks like the Braves are looking at this in a countercyclical way.  The organizational drafting philosophy continues to emphasize acquisition and development of young pitchers, then exploitation of their numbers in the farm system to use as trade bait for veterans.  

I may be wrong, but I don't think most Braves fans necessarily object to the tactic in an overall sense.  It seems to me that their concerns lie more along the lines of acquiring  one year rentals.  Often, these acquisitions seem to have recent injury histories (e.g., Dotel, Kotsay).  Braves fans cringed when they saw Drew leave, and they continue to cringe when they watch Wainwright pitch well against Atlanta.  If Davies develops into a decent starter for KC, and if Devine becomes a solid reliever in Oakland, a lot of Braves fans will be bitter, and understandably so.  

The problem is that these young pitchers are cheap for many years, and some of them are going to be good major leaguers for Atlanta's trading partners long after the veterans acquired in these trades have departed Atlanta.  That's the downside to this approach.  

I think the book is still out on this trading philosophy in general (and certainly on the Kotsay trade), but I understand the apprehension being expressed now by many Braves fans.  They keep hearing how the franchise is cash-strapped, then they see cheap young pitching traded for injured veterans.  From Frank Wren's point of view, though, the Braves are receiving $5 million of Kotsay's salary from Oakland, and Wren certainly isn't out of pitchers.  So I think this one will be very interesting to watch.  If Kotsay pans out in Atlanta in 2008 (and especially if Jordan Shafer pans out in 2009), then this could be a very good trade for Wren.  But OTOH if Kotsay spends considerable time on the DL in 2008, and if Devine turns out to be a solid late inning major league reliever for the foreseeable future, then a lot of fans will moan about this trade for years.  As I said when the trade was made, it is a big gamble by Wren.  The Braves brass is determined to win back the NL East Division pennant in 2008, while Mark Teixeira and John Smoltz are still wearing Braves uniforms.

First off, the braves were not hesitant to trade ascanio away because of off the field activity. He has some of the most upside coming out of the minor leagues. Phil stockman is what 28 years old and still hasn't been given an everyday job. I wish they never had called joey up until last september, that way all of you would be salivating and waiting to see him in 08. He'd be your number one prospect and all that jazz. And he'd go up and post a 2 something and everyone would be happy. And on schreiber, stockman, and blaine boyer, I highly doubt that the braves think higher of them. You can't just choose who another team is gonna get for a trade. Trust me, the "talkin oakland A's blog site is probably loving this one, and the A's obviously targeted Devine. And how do you say these things, then turn around and say "When you add Kyle Davies, Matt Harrison, Neftali Feliz, and Beau Jones to this list, the Braves have been more willing than most other major league franchises to deal young pitching to address needs by acquiring veterans". Matt Harrison was a top prospect with us, so was andrus, so was feliz, so was beau jones....So I guess the braves brass thought higher of everyone else and gave them away? And where does locke or rohbough come into this? they are a long ways away from the show. Richmond's protection year is coming up sooner. If they really wanted to they couldve protected richmond for what two years before locke or rohrbough's year?  
Other than that I agree with a lot of what you said   ; )

But the way people basically will refuse to criticize any move the Braves make by saying "The Organization obviously knows better" is ridiculous. Sorry, but no major league team is infallible, certainly not the Braves. As good as Schuerholz was, he made some real stupid trades that came back to bite us. And as much as I liked the Renteria trade, Wren has now made two straight nonsensical and outright contradictory trades in a row.

The Braves player development and scouting team is probably a top three group in baseball, but they're not perfect.