Talking Chop: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Around SBN: Last Jannero Pargo Post Bar-right-arrows



Why not Teixeira?

Look out Braves fans it's trading season. Let the unsubstantiated, Schuerholz-never-shows-his-hand rumors fly! The player that has caught my attention lately is some guy in Texas. No, not Kevin Millwood, the Rangers can keep his bloated salary and the rest of the years left on it. I'm talking about former Georgia Tech infielder turned Ranger first baseman, Mark Teixeira.

He's a switch-hitting slugging first baseman with above average defense. He would give us the cleanup hitter we've needed since the first season we had Andres Galarraga. No, Andruw Jones is not a cleanup hitter - never was, never will be. In our batting order he is out of position. He doesn't hit with men on base; the last three years he has a .279 BA with none on, a .245 BA with runners on, a .236 BA with runners in scoring position, and a .229 BA with runners in scoring position with two out. Of course, all of this is not to say that Teixeira would be a better cleanup hitter, he has traditionally been a number 3 hitter. But I'll take a number 3 hitter masquerading as a cleanup hitter faster than I will take a number 6 hitter masquerading like Jones has been. Besides, we've got another Jones who is mature enough of a hitter now to hit fourth with the same success he has hitting third.

One of the big knocks on Teixeira is that his agent is the dreaded Scott Boras, but when we're talking about Teixeira over Andruw Jones, that problem really doesn't amount to a hill of beans - or a hill of money. Boras will attempt to get AJ all the money he can this off-season, and he will attempt to do the same next after next season when Teixeira can become a free agent. So in that sense, which one would you rather have? The one you have to dole out big bucks to now, or the one you would have a whole year to try and sign for a discount before you may indeed have to dole out big bucks.

I say go full-bore after Mark Teixeira! And what would the Rangers want in return? Well, they could use some pitching. They don't have a single starter with an ERA under 5.00. Okay, throw them one of our lefties - Reyes, Harrison, or Smith. What else would they need? Well, they have absolutely no catching at the major league level, and their minor leagues don't seem to be producing any talent at the catching position. Okay, throw them Salty. Wow! That's a lot for us to give up for Mark Teixeira, isn't it? How about one of their crafty relievers to further bolster our pen, after all they do have the third-best bullpen ERA in the AL, so they've got several to choose from, and those discussions have apparently already started.

Yes, we would give up a great catching/first base "prospect" and a good pitching "prospect," but what are they doing for us now? Give them up and we've got a year and a half of Teixeira and the choice of signing him verses Andruw. This also puts us in the driver's seat when it comes to the Jones negotiations this winter. We won't be held up against a wall by Boras and made to give up more than we should in salary because of the prospect of losing our "cleanup hitter."

So that's the first move I'd make before the deadline, but there are several more...

0 recs | Comment 39 comments

Story-email Email | Print |

Comments

Display:

I see
where you are coming from but it just doesn't make enough sense for a middle-of-the-pack payroll team. Salty could develop into a Teixeira-like player at least at the plate. The Braves don't have enough money to keep Tex who wants to play in baltimore after next year so we sacrifice 6+ years of Salty and another pitching prospect for 1.5 years of Tex. No thanks.

by was385 on Jul 20, 2007 9:13 AM EDT   0 recs

I agree...
As much as I like Teixeira, the cost/benifit over the course of the next few years doesn't make sense to me.  The studs of our rotation aren't getting any younger, so we are going to rely heavily on our pitching prospects over the course of the next few years.  I don't think we should ship one away without getting another pitcher in return.

by jenkins on Jul 20, 2007 9:52 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

We did it...
...for Sheffield, and we did it for Drew, and we made the playoffs for each of those years. When you're trying to be a winning club, you can't always wait through the pains of developing a player, you have to go out and get the guy who helps you win now. The fact that Tex is signed through next season means we don't have to take a huge hit if/when Andruw leaves, and we have another year to develop or find another middle of the order type player. Perhaps Brandon Jones will be ready by then, perhaps KK, perhaps Johnson or Heyward in a perfect world. Salty is no sure thing, as ejruiz pointed out earlier this week, and he is prone to horrible slumping just as much as he is prone to getting hot. Besides, there are indications from new ownership that payroll is going up, so if that's the case let's get the expensive guy.

by gondeee on Jul 20, 2007 9:57 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Agree on Tex...
I've actually changed my mind on this one.  I was originally in the "no way in hell can we trade Salty" camp.  However, because Tex is signed for the extra year, I agree with Gondee that will give us the time to fill the 1st base spot from within, and give us a chance to win now.

Smoltz and Chipper are coming to the end of their careers.  I think Andruw will be gone after this year.  Bobby has already indicated that last year may be his last, and JS will probably follow him out the door.  Isn't it time to try to make a move right now?  

I know it seems difficult to believe that any NL team will be able to handle the AL this year, but shouldn't the team put its best chance forward right now with all those guys leaving soon?  I don't think trading Salty and one of our many young pitchers is going to hurt the team's development in the long run.  In a couple of years, this is going to be a very young team regardless of who we trade this year, and as fans we probably will have to deal with some mediocre years.

by KLB on Jul 20, 2007 10:50 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

We needed offense though
our offense is fine right now. Chipper, Andruw, Diaz, Johnson, Renteria, etc. are all hitting. It is pitching that is a problem. This team can suffer through the growing pains of Salty because he has been sufficient at the plate and we can score enough. One and a half years of Tex with few stud prospects in the system isn't worth it. I would like the .300/30/100 we could get but not worth it to sell the future.

by was385 on Jul 20, 2007 1:13 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I understand, but...
...first of all, Sheffield was different.  We acquired Shef when we still had a $100M payroll.  As for JD, I bet that is one trade which JS wishes he didn't execute and didn't had to part with Wainwright.  

Furthermore, offense is not the problem of this team.  Starting pitching is the problem.  So, if we are trading Salty, which I highly doubt it will happen anyway, the Braves will get a young and cheap starting pitcher in return like Ian Snell.  Tex sounds nice, but it sounds more like fantasy league move.

by kc on Jul 20, 2007 10:20 AM EDT   0 recs

..I just want to know..
..why everyone has a man crush on Ian Snell?

by Rain Delay on Jul 20, 2007 10:54 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Well...
I think the key words are 'Salty could...'.  Not that I'm saying he won't, but if the return is a power hitting first baseman (who actually makes contact), and a bolstering of the bullpen (Otsuka?) then I would pull the trigger for Salty, pitching prospect not named Harrison, Lillibridge and perhaps something like a lower minor league reliever.  I don't see us getting away with NOT trading Salty in this deal (because, indeed, where would he play on our team?), but perhaps if they were willing to accept something like Brandon Jones, Harrison, Escobar, Brayan Pena(?), minor league reliever and Salty has any aptitude in LF/RF I would certainly consider it.

As a note, if people think my packages are too steep, remember what we gave up for Drew.  I personally think that they might be a bit light, but who knows?  I would prefer to keep Salty and address our needs, but I'm with gondeee...Tex and Otsuka, if we can get them in a package deal, is something I would highly consider if we didn't have to give up both Salty and Escobar.  Even if we did, I would think long and hard about it.

by Something Profound on Jul 20, 2007 10:40 AM EDT   0 recs

Also...
Something else: if we don't sign Tex to an extension (unlikely, I'd think), we could then use that money to persue Johan Santana to the fullest, who could become a free agent that year.  Perfect world, I know, but if we could get him for Zito money I wouldn't think twice about it and then let the kids or cheap FA's fill 1B.

by Something Profound on Jul 20, 2007 10:44 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Otsuka
and a bolstering of the bullpen (Otsuka?)

Why bolster the pen with a guy who's having arm problems and is currently on the DL?

by Rain Delay on Jul 20, 2007 10:55 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Ah.
Well...I was unaware of this.  Shows how much I've been paying attention.  Just replace Otsuka with CJ Wilson in my original post. :)

by Something Profound on Jul 20, 2007 11:00 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah...
..forearm troubles on his pitching arm. He was just placed on the DL within the last couple of days.

by Rain Delay on Jul 20, 2007 11:14 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Salty...
...will be as good as Frenchy and McCann very soon.  I will not trade Salty away just for one plus year of Tex.  No way.  Would you trade away Frenchy and McCann after the 2005 season?  Unless we are getting something VERY GOOD in return which we can hang on for longer than two seasons, it's not worth the price of Salty.  Nobody in our minor league system now has as high a ceiling and is as major league ready as Salty.  

I guess our opinions differ from how we view Salty.  I view him to be as special as Frenchy and McCann.  

by kc on Jul 20, 2007 10:58 AM EDT   0 recs

Frenchy?
How special is Frenchy?  As JC pointed out on another board, Andruw's OPS is currently higher than Frenchy's (.758 vs. .756) and Andruw is much more valuable defensively than Frenchy.

I think it's about time that Frenchy loses some of his hometown goodwill.

by KLB on Jul 20, 2007 11:04 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

JC
And to follow-up, JC has a good post about French's 2005 season and the ramifications:  http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2007/07/how-long-in-the-oven/

by KLB on Jul 20, 2007 11:08 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Frenchy not special?
Obviously the great start in 2005 did not continue through 2006 or even this season, but to say that this kid isn't special I think is wrong. He endured what you could consider a sophomore slump last season and still put up some pretty solid numbers of 29 Homers and 103 RBI. I would say that these numbers are pretty special for a guy that is only 22 years old, especially when you consider that he was batting in the 6th and 7th hole all year (how many other 6th and 7th hole hitters around the league produced those kinds of numbers???). Let's talk a little bit more about a sophomore slump. Hundreds of talented players have gone through this (Ryan Zimmerman right now for instance), and the reason that this happens is that big league pitchers make adjusments, and usually these special kinds of players have been great hitters their entire lives and probably have rarely ever had to make adjustments to counteract pitching adjustments. They just go out and mash the ball like they have since they were little. Now all of a sudden the best pitchers in the world know their tendencies and exploit them. The true test of a special player is one that can endure a sophomore slump and make adjustments to elevate his game, and I know everyone on this board will agree that Francoeur has grown tremendously as a hitter when it comes to contact, swinging at better pitches, walking more, and driving the ball the other way. He is still more aggressive than most hitters, but has learned to control it somewhat. I know that his power numbers have dropped a little, but this is due to the fact that he is concentrating on driving the ball the other way. He is only 23 years old and the power numbers will only increase as time goes on.

Another point that you made about Frenchy not being special is by comparing his and Andruw's OPS. I agree when you look at that number (which is supposed to be the most important stat in baseball) it makes you cringe. Once my initial cringe was over, I thought about it and scoffed because this comparison needs to be broken down more in order to really shed some light.

Jones/Francoeur
Avg/OPS

RISP =         .231/.814    .360/.901
2out RISP =    .204/.923    .350/.935
Late & Close = .224/.712    .327/.768
Tie Game =     .227/.720    .345/.912
Within 1 run = .221/.726    .313/.821

Time Facing Opponent (Starting Pitcher) in game
               .238/.769    .216/.605
               .203/.671    .298/.748
               .278/.861    .359/1.009

So, Francoeur's overall OPS might not be as high as Andruw's, but as is undeniablly proven by the stats above, Francoeur is a much better hitter in crucial/high pressure at bats.

Overall, being only 23 and being as clutch as he has been, I would have to consider him as more than special.

by whunt13 on Jul 20, 2007 3:13 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Nice
Nice stat breakdown! I think this reinforces what I was saying about AJ in the original post - as the game gets tougher, his play declines. Frenchy on the other hand, rises to the occaision. Looking at his numbers, Teixiera too is good with runners on and in close and late situations.

by gondeee on Jul 20, 2007 3:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

No man crush...
...but Snell happens to fit all the basic requirements needed for the price of Salty.  I am perfectly happy if that pitcher turns out to be Santana or Oswalt.  

by kc on Jul 20, 2007 11:00 AM EDT   0 recs

I just don't see it...
..Snell is not comp to Oswalt or Santana IMO, but I'm going to be late for work and don't have time to look up #'s and what not. But will...I just don't see anything special about him.

by Rain Delay on Jul 20, 2007 11:15 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

tex
I'm a ranger fan and first of all we aren't trading CJ Wilson, second I understand your obsession with Salty but he is just a prospect and Tex is a proven commodity that can get you 35-120 every year. Third the Braves have an aging roster, complaints about only having him for a year and a half i don't get because that's probably your windwow with the roster as is.
We also have Jamey Wright who's been pitching well lately we could package him and Tex for some of your prospects. Whats the Braves fan point of view?

by spriteman on Jul 20, 2007 11:14 AM EDT   0 recs

Erm...
I think every roster has a problem with their players getting older...damn if those days don't just keep creeping along!  All jokes aside, I can't comprehend how you can call our roster 'aging'.  Smoltz, perhaps?  He is but one player.  We've got McCann, Thorman and Salty, Kelly Johnson, Escobar, and James 25 and under.  Diaz, Harris, Andruw, Renteria, Carlyle, and Hudson are all around 30.  We're right in the middle of the pack in the league in avg age (29.1) and the signing of Julio skews that number.  Chipper and Smoltz I can see your point, but to call our window a year and a half with these players is just silly.

Regarding CJ Wilson: never say never.  I agree with you on Salty vs. Tex, but Salty isn't 'just' a prospect.  He's a major league ready switch hitting catcher.  Yes, Tex is now, but Salty is as safe of a bet as any out there for rebuilding teams.  Its just that in Atlanta, we think we have the team to win now, and we can afford to trade Salty if it would get us someone like Tex or a impact young pitcher.

Jamey Wright: no thanks, from my perspective.  We've got pieces that are his equal and younger.

by Something Profound on Jul 20, 2007 11:39 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i agree
however if Atlanta is going to balk at acquiring Tex for the price of Salty, that's just as silly. Every team overvalues its own prospects, and i think that the two most overhyped prospects come out of the Brave and Yankee organizations, which is understandable , since they have a winning tradtion.
Over here we have been sucking for years from failed trades (Chris Young,A-gone,for Otsuka and Eaton) To ridiculus signings (CHAN HO PARK.) But now JD has a lot of pressure on him to make a can't miss trade or its his head.
I think that if the Braves acquire Tex and lets say Benoit by giving up Salty and some spare arms that don't tinker that much with the big league roster, it would be the favs to win it all. Bolster a pretty good bullpen and get an impact bat.
However i could tell you that Texas fans will not be pleased, they want a  Justin Upton or Phil Hughes for any Tex trade. Not gonna to happen.

by spriteman on Jul 20, 2007 12:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'd be against
pulling the trigger on a deal for Tex, too.  But the truth of the matter is that we're going to have to do something with Salty eventually.  What good does it do us to stash him away on the bench and play him every third or fourth game?  We have no need to carry two catchers of the caliber of McCann and Salty--so as much as I like him and as high as his ceiling is, why not trade him for someone of equal value that can actually fill one of our needs?

by supesk6 on Jul 20, 2007 11:41 AM EDT   0 recs

Banged up Mets
This has been a very interesting post. I would have to be more on the side of aquiring Tex however. Pedro is questionable, and who else is glad we didn't let go of Hudson for Glavine now? El pukeay is like 54 or something, and Perez seems only effective against the Braves. The only positive from their rotation would be Maine, and that's not saying much. If you are going to topple the Mets, this is the year to do it. Go all in and bring Tex back to GA!

by surge on Jul 20, 2007 11:57 AM EDT   0 recs

Its not trading Salty that gets me...
its trading him for another hitter.  Look, with Andruw and McCann coming around, Chipper KJ and Edgar putting up great numbers, I don't see how this makes us a better playoff team for this year.  

If we are going to make a run, we need more than a #1 with nagging injuries, a #2, a #4 and 2 by definition only #5s.  If we can turn Escobar into a #3 or very good #4 with a prospect or two I might reconsider, but otherwise you're wasting our best chip on acquiring a short term player with the same strengths.

Sure Tex helps next year, bc Andruw will be gone, but our rotation is in the same or more trouble then.  He won't save us enough money compared to Andruws current salary to get a decent CF and SP.  I'd also argue our position player depth (Lillibridge, Brandon Jones, and in a while Kaaihue and Schafer) is a lot stronger than our SP depth (just Harrison and Reyes) over the next two years

by abravesfan on Jul 20, 2007 1:12 PM EDT   0 recs

Well
If we trade Salty for Tex JS will have determined that Salty is just not ready for first and he has confidence in a guy like Kala Ka'aihue or someone young like that to replace Tex for the 2009 season!!! Anyway you look at it we will have a delima if we keep Salty and KK and other young players are ready to take over First base in the future!!! Having said that IF we trade Salty for Tex, we have to get another bullpen arm like CJ Wilson and have to go and get another Good Starter!!! If we wanna have a Chance to win it all this year and we give up Salty for Tex, WE have to get a Lefty reliever AND a Good Starter!!! Or dont even trade Salty AT ALL!!!!!!!
braves#1

by rockybull on Jul 20, 2007 1:22 PM EDT   0 recs

Chipper at first
Another thing to consider is that if we were to acquire Tex then let him go after 08, Chipper could move to first to make room for Escobar, Campbell, Pope, or Lillibridge at third. I know Chipper might be reluctant to move again, but if his mobility declines any further it would be a move the team might HAVE to make.

by gondeee on Jul 20, 2007 2:20 PM EDT   0 recs

sussshhh!
Chipper might be listening. We all know how sensitive he is about 3B.

by torchy on Jul 20, 2007 2:33 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

a twist
teixera will not have a "no trade clause" on his contract when he comes to atlanta.  just a thought, but say we go out of contention in 2008, couldnt we offer up tex to someone in contention for a heavy ranson.  we get the 1 1/2 year rental that we need, and could probably get some nice prospects later on in return. salty is so highly valued because he's a catcher, but when he moves to first base, an offensive position, his value drops.  salty will never be the catcher for our organization, and thus should be trade bait.  although, if we get tex, i hope otsuka or wilson comes with the package.  just a thought, but i know soriano has long desired to get into the starting rotation.  if we do acquire otsuka, do you guys think there are any chances of soriano making a run for the starting job come september?  i know he can pitch for 5 innings.  i would love to see that.  if successful, that would solve 3 of the braves glaring problems (power cleanup hitter, good defensive 1st baseman, and 5th starter) with one trade.  then, bring pena up and cut ties with chris woodward, and bang, another problem solved.

by ryan c on Jul 20, 2007 2:50 PM EDT   0 recs

Otsuka..
..is on the DL and has arm problems. Why would we want to trade for that?

by Rain Delay on Jul 20, 2007 3:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think its obvious
Hampton and gonzales need some company, they are getting bored with each other.
.....Matt

by yondaime4 on Jul 20, 2007 3:16 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

No-no
They've got Lerew to hang out with now.

by gondeee on Jul 20, 2007 3:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh right
You know i was always really high on him and he really has the best stuff out of the crop of pitchers we have now but he just hasn't been able to get things going. Is he even really hurt? Or did have a mental break down? </Sigh> I hope they are getting better at connect 4. Maybe they can go on the pro tour and earn back some of the money they are losing the team.
.....Matt

by yondaime4 on Jul 20, 2007 5:24 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Thursday...
Lerew underwent Tommy John surgery.

That would have to have been some kind of mental break down..

by jjschiller on Jul 20, 2007 6:56 PM EDT   0 recs

Different Approach
Texas needs starting pitching. I think if you gave them Jo-Jo and Salty, you might be able to get Tex and nothing else.  To get a reliever from them, I think the Braves would have to throw in a mid-level pitching prospect.

Is this too much?  Maybe.  Salty is the biggest chip and the Braves need pitching more than anything else, but there isn't that much SP out there to get, but I'm going to throw one out there..Erik Bedard from Baltimore.  Looks like he has 2.5 years until free agency, but it may not be a good fit unless the Braves can convince the O's that Salty is a first baseman.  However as a hypothetical, the same three players mentioned above for Bedard?  I'd think about it for sure.

You can also just think about trying to acquire the best bullpen in the league.  Basically get your starters to go 5 or 6 and go to the shut-down pen.  This will cost less as well (at least I believe).  Guys like Lidge (I know, I know, but look at his numbers this year), Dotel, Otsuka might be available (as well as provide insurance for Wickman..yuck).  The Royals are asking the farm for Dotel right now, but that will have to come down.  In this scenerio (not necessarily these guys), I think the Braves improve themselves for the Playoff run AND the playoffs where the bullpens will come into play heavily and also don't give up their biggest chip..Salty, for which they could save until the off-season when they could get a better return.

by Stook on Jul 20, 2007 6:56 PM EDT   0 recs

Shoot
I read that Otsuka is on the DL about 5 times, but I guess it didn't stick.  Sorry about that.

by Stook on Jul 20, 2007 6:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

How about..
Jason Isringhausen?  Club Option for 2008.

by Stook on Jul 20, 2007 7:01 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Makes no sense at all.
Teixeira is exactly what the Braves hope Saltalamacchia turns into. Big power, high average switch-hitting first baseman. Salty just needs the at-bats and he will BE Teixeira.

Thats a move the Yankees can make.. "We'll pay more to have it now." The Braves can't afford those kinds of moves... You don't trade Salty for a guy just like him who's going to walk in a year.

The Braves traded for JD Drew a few years back... But they didn't trade Francoeur for him. That wouldn't have made any sense.

by jjschiller on Jul 20, 2007 7:02 PM EDT   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Atlanta Braves.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Small
Top Ten Prospects: Hitters Edition.
Small
Hard to watch...
Small
Hampton
Zaofuneralofgod_small
AFL - Mesa Solar Sox
Small
Kelly Johnson To Be Traded?
Small
Jason Heyward to the Beach
Dsc00244-1_small
Outfielder CJ Lee promoted to Myrtle Beach
Argue_small
Brian McCann.
Argue_small
Do we have a ROY on our hands?
Small
Kotsay coming back?

Post_icon New FanPost All FanPosts Carrot-mini


Managers

Gondeee_small gondeee

Authors

Ichigo_-_power_small yondaime4

ad

Site Meter